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On December 03 2013 02:17 Surprise.820 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 00:57 TheYango wrote:On December 02 2013 22:55 Surprise.820 wrote:
No it isn't, because for this case and a lot of others, people are afraid to try alternatives. Itemization is quite difficult because correct itemization requires foresight into how you expect the rest of the game to play out. That kind of prediction is hard even for pros to make correctly. Hey I didn't say it wasn't difficult, just confused as to why item choices are the hardest part of the game. Regardless, I agree with you entirely.
I don't know if it's the most difficult, but the problem is you can't just decide to switch from say a radiance to an mkb, or a hand of midas recipe to a mek, and the wrong item can be very worthless if both teams are playing unexpected strategies.
For example, I really like axe (in jungle). A lot of items are really good on axe: urn, mek, force, necronomicon, blink, tranquil, blademail, even vanguard. But you have maybe 4 to 10 minutes where you can jungle a reasonable amount before you're pretty committed to fighting, and hopefully your items give you some regen to help jungle. So let's say I build an urn, but then my team decides they want to turtle and avoid fights.
Now if I went a battle hunger 4 urn build, I can't jungle well anymore because I didn't level spin, and if I hunger/urn someone, they just kill a creep unless I decide to dive them - which ends up feeding if I don't have the allies to back me up.
Now if I rushed mek, what if the teams decide to split push and not gank, then I spent all my gold/jungling time on an item that's basically a regen/armor aura.
Maybe I decide to build tranquil for some ganking regen, but if my hunger ganks are unsuccessful, now I'm behind on stacking camps/blink or whatever farming.
Maybe I rushed blink, had no regen (bought tons of tangos instead, burning tons of gold), and they just kill me with a nyx/storm/slark/bh.
Your items, and the items you use to progress to the first biggish item, might be highly dependent on what both teams are doing. The less you can farm after a certain point, the more punishing these decisions are.
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On December 03 2013 11:43 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 10:44 igotmyown wrote:On December 02 2013 01:47 TheYango wrote:On December 01 2013 22:56 DW-Unrec wrote:On December 01 2013 02:54 TheYango wrote:
It's still true, because it evens out your main hit damage with the cleave damage. Without a QB with your BF, you kill a lot of camps 1-2 hits slower because the cleave damage kills your secondary targets faster than your main hit target.
This is most obvious with the black dragon ancients--with QB+BF you kill the small dragons on exactly the same hit you kill the big one. With just BF, the small dragons die slightly earlier so you spend a little bit longer hitting the big dragon with nothing to cleave. shouldn't you hit the smallar dragons first? they have less armour, which means more pure damage being dealt to the huge ass dragon Cleave doesn't use anyone's armor value in determining damage. Neither the main target nor the cleaved target's armor apply. That's the point, the main target does have armor reduction for himself, so ignoring armor does more damage (if you had 100% cleave). Cleaved damage has absolutely nothing to do with armor.
Thats his point. If you have 100% or more cleave, you attack the target with less armor since splash ignores it.
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Lalalaland34504 Posts
On December 03 2013 14:15 Darpa wrote:
Spent like 15 minutes searching this trying to find it in the general section lol what an idiot ><
Now for the question.
Pretty much all the steam builds for Necro are similar, with a few key difference, but for the most part, bloodstone, scepter, shivas are all pretty common. Can I ask why people dont stack damage and attack spead on necro? I realize they dont affect his Q or ultimate, but the reality is he puts out a good portion of his damage with auto attacking.
Seems like Shadow blade situationally, Assault Cuirass, Radiance, Deso, mkb would all be good options depending on the circumstance. Bloodstone is always good, and i think its for the HP, but it seems like regen based items like it are wasted on him given his regen ability from last hits.
You pick Necrophos if you want your team to win fights by outlasting the enemy, from your Q spam, ridiculous Sadist procs as well as your aura doing a ridiculous amount of consistent damage over time. Thus your items reflect that - Mek, Pipe, Bloodstone, Heart, Shivas etc are all focused on making you and your team as tanky as possible. A good team against a Necrophos will always start off fights by focusing you down asap, so simply relying on Sadist regen procs to be tanky is not enough, plus that doesn't help your team.
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It says diffusal blade/brewmasterrs thingy remove buffs, but what is a buff?
I found myself never building diffusal because I don't really what it does. I end up only using brewmasters debuff to end tornado. There has to be more utility to those things.
Follow up question: are there any other things that debuff that I'm unaware of?
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On December 03 2013 15:58 StaraCroft wrote:
It says diffusal blade/brewmasterrs thingy remove buffs, but what is a buff?
I found myself never building diffusal because I don't really what it does. I end up only using brewmasters debuff to end tornado. There has to be more utility to those things.
Follow up question: are there any other things that debuff that I'm unaware of?
Most effects that "stick" on people are buffs/debuffs. For example, Omniknight's Repel (Magic Immunity) and Ultimate can be purged. (So Diffusal Blade is extremely good versus Omniknight.) There are too many to list, but a list of unpurgable debuffs/buffs are listed here:
http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Purge
So if any effect is not on that list, you can likely take it off with Diffusal Blade and with Brewmaster. Also remember that Diffusal Blade kills summons too! (Warlock golem!)
edit: Broodmother's ultimate can be purged off of her, so that can really cripple her.
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I have recently been building shadow blade on necro, if you get it quickly you can kill most heroes with the sb - pulse - ult combo, which is especially useful if you don't trust your team to get anything done. Although I haven't tried it since the sb nerf, I'd still call it a fun and viable build, and you can aquire a mek quite quickly afterwards if needed.
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As long as you aren't super behind Dagon 5/Eblade on Necrophos is also pretty fun and viable. Depending on the situation you might get a Mek first, but the power of insta-gibbing someone on Necophos then using the Sadist proc in a team fight to sustain you is pretty deadly.
When your opponents first gets a BKB it becomes somewhat difficult, but the build gets increases in strength again as the BKB timer ticks down. Bloodstone is pretty terrible on Necrophos considering you don't really get that much out of the additional charges, and you'd probably be getting more from a Shiva's/Hex/Heart with that kind of money.
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On December 03 2013 10:56 Jotoco wrote:
Is there a program that analyses replays and get data and stats from the game?
Like damage each player dealt, damage each skill dealt. Who killed who more and more stats? Something like SC2gears or something?
Nothing? Any help?
I found one, but it only works on Windows 8(.1). And even then I don't think it does what I wanted it to.
I want to compare things like:
1 - If veno's wards do, on average and on a real game, more damage when you put more points into sting or wards thenselves;
2 - amount of mana restored by crystals aura during a certain time-frame;
3 - If possible, all this on a definable time-window.
More and more, if possible.
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I don't think you can read anything into dota stats, whether or not a program exists to give you them.
The specific questions you asked are obviously easily answered by doing the math by hand though, and don't require or involve statistics.
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On December 03 2013 21:29 Jotoco wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 10:56 Jotoco wrote:
Is there a program that analyses replays and get data and stats from the game?
Like damage each player dealt, damage each skill dealt. Who killed who more and more stats? Something like SC2gears or something? Nothing? Any help? I found one, but it only works on Windows 8(.1). And even then I don't think it does what I wanted it to. I want to compare things like: 1 - If veno's wards do, on average and on a real game, more damage when you put more points into sting or wards thenselves; 2 - amount of mana restored by crystals aura during a certain time-frame; 3 - If possible, all this on a definable time-window. More and more, if possible.
All those questions are pretty easy to theorycraft out by hand. I'm curious what program you found that only works on Windows 8 though; have a link?
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United States47024 Posts
On December 03 2013 15:32 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 11:43 hariooo wrote:On December 02 2013 10:44 igotmyown wrote:On December 02 2013 01:47 TheYango wrote:On December 01 2013 22:56 DW-Unrec wrote:On December 01 2013 02:54 TheYango wrote:
It's still true, because it evens out your main hit damage with the cleave damage. Without a QB with your BF, you kill a lot of camps 1-2 hits slower because the cleave damage kills your secondary targets faster than your main hit target.
This is most obvious with the black dragon ancients--with QB+BF you kill the small dragons on exactly the same hit you kill the big one. With just BF, the small dragons die slightly earlier so you spend a little bit longer hitting the big dragon with nothing to cleave. shouldn't you hit the smallar dragons first? they have less armour, which means more pure damage being dealt to the huge ass dragon Cleave doesn't use anyone's armor value in determining damage. Neither the main target nor the cleaved target's armor apply. That's the point, the main target does have armor reduction for himself, so ignoring armor does more damage (if you had 100% cleave). Cleaved damage has absolutely nothing to do with armor. Thats his point. If you have 100% or more cleave, you attack the target with less armor since splash ignores it.
But the discussion had nothing to do with 100% or more splash, it had to do with an Anti-Mage with one Battle Fury and a QB, and whether you should kill Black Dragon Ancients by attacking the main Dragon or the small ones. In which case, the answer is to attack the main one.
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On December 03 2013 15:37 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 14:15 Darpa wrote:
Spent like 15 minutes searching this trying to find it in the general section lol what an idiot ><
Now for the question.
Pretty much all the steam builds for Necro are similar, with a few key difference, but for the most part, bloodstone, scepter, shivas are all pretty common. Can I ask why people dont stack damage and attack spead on necro? I realize they dont affect his Q or ultimate, but the reality is he puts out a good portion of his damage with auto attacking.
Seems like Shadow blade situationally, Assault Cuirass, Radiance, Deso, mkb would all be good options depending on the circumstance. Bloodstone is always good, and i think its for the HP, but it seems like regen based items like it are wasted on him given his regen ability from last hits. You pick Necrophos if you want your team to win fights by outlasting the enemy, from your Q spam, ridiculous Sadist procs as well as your aura doing a ridiculous amount of consistent damage over time. Thus your items reflect that - Mek, Pipe, Bloodstone, Heart, Shivas etc are all focused on making you and your team as tanky as possible. A good team against a Necrophos will always start off fights by focusing you down asap, so simply relying on Sadist regen procs to be tanky is not enough, plus that doesn't help your team.
So if your working a farmed necro what is your 6 slot? would you ever put the 6th item as a radiance, its more damage over time on top of his aura and provides more long term fight potential. Thinking of something along the lines of
Phase (or travel depending how farmed), Scepter, Bloodstone, Shivas, Rod/pipe/mech (depending on who got what on the team),
and the last item? Ive seen some go heart, but that seems kind of absurd given the regen you already have from passives and items. Linkens maybe? to be more tanky? Bkb? Radiance? not really sure. I suppose it depends on the circumstance. Even AC would be reasonable given the buffs it gives your team.
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holy shit no lol.
BKB/Sheep/Shivas/Eblade/Aghs/Travs
Aghs optional depending on how many cores the enemy have. If you prefer, get refresher. Mek is purchased earler but sold when you need the slot. Force staff as well although you probably still need forces on teammates since you are so low mobility.
E: oh yeah. You need a heart. Probably over the Eblade most games. Depends on the game.
So BKB/Sheep/Shivas/Heart/Travs + one of (Refresher, Aghs, Eblade) depending on what is most important for you.
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On December 04 2013 05:53 Sn0_Man wrote:
holy shit no lol.
BKB/Sheep/Shivas/Eblade/Aghs/Travs
Aghs optional depending on how many cores the enemy have. If you prefer, get refresher. Mek is purchased earler but sold when you need the slot. Force staff as well although you probably still need forces on teammates since you are so low mobility.
E: oh yeah. You need a heart. Probably over the Eblade most games. Depends on the game.
So BKB/Sheep/Shivas/Heart/Travs + one of (Refresher, Aghs, Eblade) depending on what is most important for you.
Interesting, because almost none of the highly rated published builds that ive seen look like that. I dont think refresher is really useful, but it will take some testing. Etheral doesnt seem like the right item, since its primarily an agility stat item, and your not looking to gank or fight 1v1 with anyone but more provide tankyness and utility for long term fights on your team. Seems more suited to survivability with damage output heros. Where as necro is already fairly survivable. Sheep is reasonable and is in several of the builds, im always just hesitant to build regen based items when you already have a few and a passive.
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On December 04 2013 01:37 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 15:32 Excludos wrote:On December 03 2013 11:43 hariooo wrote:On December 02 2013 10:44 igotmyown wrote:On December 02 2013 01:47 TheYango wrote:On December 01 2013 22:56 DW-Unrec wrote:On December 01 2013 02:54 TheYango wrote:
It's still true, because it evens out your main hit damage with the cleave damage. Without a QB with your BF, you kill a lot of camps 1-2 hits slower because the cleave damage kills your secondary targets faster than your main hit target.
This is most obvious with the black dragon ancients--with QB+BF you kill the small dragons on exactly the same hit you kill the big one. With just BF, the small dragons die slightly earlier so you spend a little bit longer hitting the big dragon with nothing to cleave. shouldn't you hit the smallar dragons first? they have less armour, which means more pure damage being dealt to the huge ass dragon Cleave doesn't use anyone's armor value in determining damage. Neither the main target nor the cleaved target's armor apply. That's the point, the main target does have armor reduction for himself, so ignoring armor does more damage (if you had 100% cleave). Cleaved damage has absolutely nothing to do with armor. Thats his point. If you have 100% or more cleave, you attack the target with less armor since splash ignores it. But the discussion had nothing to do with 100% or more splash, it had to do with an Anti-Mage with one Battle Fury and a QB, and whether you should kill Black Dragon Ancients by attacking the main Dragon or the small ones. In which case, the answer is to attack the main one.
Absolutely. It was an off topic discussion that just popped up. His point wasn't that it was off topic though, but that cleave doesn't have "anything to do with armor!", which is just a weird thing to say. Although not wrong on a technical level, it is wrong within the topic. Considering it ignores armor, and thus has something to do with it.
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On December 04 2013 06:07 Darpa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 05:53 Sn0_Man wrote:
holy shit no lol.
BKB/Sheep/Shivas/Eblade/Aghs/Travs
Aghs optional depending on how many cores the enemy have. If you prefer, get refresher. Mek is purchased earler but sold when you need the slot. Force staff as well although you probably still need forces on teammates since you are so low mobility.
E: oh yeah. You need a heart. Probably over the Eblade most games. Depends on the game.
So BKB/Sheep/Shivas/Heart/Travs + one of (Refresher, Aghs, Eblade) depending on what is most important for you. Interesting, because almost none of the highly rated published builds that ive seen look like that. I dont think refresher is really useful, but it will take some testing. Etheral doesnt seem like the right item, since its primarily an agility stat item, and your not looking to gank or fight 1v1 with anyone but more provide tankyness and utility for long term fights on your team. Seems more suited to survivability with damage output heros. Where as necro is already fairly survivable. Sheep is reasonable and is in several of the builds, im always just hesitant to build regen based items when you already have a few and a passive.
Sheep is sheep it needs no justification. Its absolutely NOT a "regen based" item its a castable hex. It just so happens to also be an amazing farm (aka regen) item since necrolyte can chew through mana at an incredible rate even with max sadist.
BKB is because all you need is to survive and BKB is one of the best survivability items in the game. There are arguments for pipe since necrolyte doesn't REALLY need to avoid being stunned etc (since all you need is to be able to cast your spells intermittently) but any kind of silence wrecks you and due to necro's awful mobility, avoiding slows/stuns is key to keeping your heal bomb and aura hitting as many targets as possible.
Heart is simply the best tank item in the game, non negotiable.
Shivas is amazing, its a bunch of survivability as well as a nice nuke and it provides another incredibly obnoxious aura for your enemies to deal with, cementing your teamfight presence. Plus mana pool never hurts on a hero whose ult is like 500 mana.
Travs are travs. Best mobility, part of essentially ever "6-slot" build.
The spare slot goes to one of:
Refresher: when you need to ult 2 different people really badly. Bonus is that it refreshes sheep and shivas both of which are awesome.
E-Blade: when you need a ghost sceptre for survivability, when you need to be able to ghost sceptre an enemy carry or an ally, and especially when you need to be able to 1v1 enemy heroes (Sheep -> hit hit hit -> eblade + shivas + death pulse -> ult = GG practically anybody). Ignore the Agi part, it is simply a way to win any 1v1 fight ever, plus utility for physical immunity for allies/self and disarm enemies.
Aghs: well duh. When there is 1 enemy core that you care about, and nothing else. Period.
Everything else is shit tier. In game guides are coincidentally universally shit tier. And besides, in game guides really don't have anything to do with 6-slot theory crafting.
Please note that i'm 6-slot theory crafting here, not necessarily advocating a smooth build-up build that would work in a game. Items like Bloodstone are bad but have situational uses where you need 1 item that both tanks up and fixes your mana regen. Its a timing push kind of item since you don't need that much regen in general but right when bloodstone hits you are tanky and can fight almost forever so you can push with it. AC is bad forget anybody who ever suggests it you don't do any phys dmg. Mek is core but you sell it when you hit 6slot. Drums are fun and can be good but you sell them when you hit 6slot. Force is core for sure but again I think you often sell it once your teammates can provide. Blink is the same as force but more situational. Euls is situationally OK as a mana regen item with some niche use but its simply not good enough. Atos is quite reasonable except you have to be using the active on enemy heroes, which implies teamfights, which is not where atos is good. Not a 6slot item regardless.
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I'd imagine at some point you'd want to theory craft your way into a agh's + refreshers in some situations. Disabling 2 buybacks at the same time seems like it'd be an immediate GG. At the same time there's not really any practical way to carry that without giving up a ton of your other general 6-slot goodness. Probably change the BKB for it in situations where you aren't concerned about silences or chain stuns.
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Well you have to kill 2 people with aghs/refresher to disable their buybacks. That isn't always a given lol, or at least killing the people whose buybacks matter. Sure you can get the veno and the visage but who cares.
PS refresher refreshes BKB too. I feel like it kinda wins out most of the time of the items proposed.
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Haha well yeah. I was looking at your list for a long time and it's such a tempting combo but really none of the items are that negotiable in changing around. I suppose if an ally already had Shiva's you could do that, but Necro is a better Shiva's user than most others.
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EPT
