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On November 26 2013 17:07 Belisarius wrote:
So has anyone worked out how to efficiently jungle bat or darkseer from level 1 in 6.79?
It seems like you have to pretty much inhabit the pull for the first few minutes, or slowly chip away at a medium camp while praying you don't accidentally mud golems. Bat's base damage nerf doesn't help; it seems hard to clear the easy camp in time to stack the hard one now.
it's slower but it's the same as before
it's easier on dire because the two medium camps are closer
on both heroes continuously stack the hard camp and clear whichever camp isn't golems
sometimes you have to walk to the easy camp (counterward it if necessary)
at 5 or 6 minutes clear the stacked hard camp via ion shells or napalm + firefly
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On November 26 2013 15:35 fdsdfg wrote:
It seems like every time I play a game with Bloodseeker on the enemy's team, he always destroys me, no matter who I am.
What weaknesses does he have that I can take advantage of? It feels like he hits me with rupture, and no matter what I do I'm just dead.
I even got a BKB to protect me from rupture, but it doesn't seem to work
As everybody has stated above, always bring a TP if you're up against a Bloodseeker. You got ruptured, you TP. If things go quite nicely on the farming side, get a Linken, as it will negates Rupture first try.
Thus, Bloodseeker is not a mega-carry (tier-1 carry), so with the right plays you can remove his presence earlier in the game (obs, maybe sentries, quick pickoffs on him, etc)
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On November 26 2013 17:07 Belisarius wrote:
So has anyone worked out how to efficiently jungle bat or darkseer from level 1 in 6.79?
It seems like you have to pretty much inhabit the pull for the first few minutes, or slowly chip away at a medium camp while praying you don't accidentally mud golems. Bat's base damage nerf doesn't help; it seems hard to clear the easy camp in time to stack the hard one now.
Being the one to pull is in my opinion a really good alternative.
You basically up the number of heroes in your safelane by 1 without actually suffering the usual lack of experience and gold.
Just stack the small camp, pull it, and then clear it after your lanecreeps are dead. Two small camps should give level 2 unless you split it with multiple heroes.
Don't fret over not being able to pull the next minute because you kill the camp. If the offlane is worth a damn they would start disrupting your pull or leeching exp.
Also control the pull at top lane properly. If the creepwave is coming, keep the neutrals in their camp(= stand in the camp and attack those who get attacked by your range creep) so you don't have an uncontrolled continuous pull.
Aside from that batrider/ds shouldn't have big progblems in jungle now.
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On November 26 2013 19:39 Mataza wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 17:07 Belisarius wrote:
So has anyone worked out how to efficiently jungle bat or darkseer from level 1 in 6.79?
It seems like you have to pretty much inhabit the pull for the first few minutes, or slowly chip away at a medium camp while praying you don't accidentally mud golems. Bat's base damage nerf doesn't help; it seems hard to clear the easy camp in time to stack the hard one now. Being the one to pull is in my opinion a really good alternative. You basically up the number of heroes in your safelane by 1 without actually suffering the usual lack of experience and gold. Just stack the small camp, pull it, and then clear it after your lanecreeps are dead. Two small camps should give level 2 unless you split it with multiple heroes. Don't fret over not being able to pull the next minute because you kill the camp. If the offlane is worth a damn they would start disrupting your pull or leeching exp. Also control the pull at top lane properly. If the creepwave is coming, keep the neutrals in their camp(= stand in the camp and attack those who get attacked by your range creep) so you don't have an uncontrolled continuous pull. Aside from that batrider/ds shouldn't have big progblems in jungle now.
Thanks.
I dislike using the pull because half the time the friendly support goes "Hey look, pulling! This looks like a job for Rubick!" and comes and leeches/nukes all the creeps. Split that to the enemy offlaner as well and I'm quickly getting a quarter of a level from a double stack. I'll try it if it looks like the safelane is actually competent, but I think I might just have to practice killing mediums at level 1 otherwise.
On November 26 2013 17:32 Dead9 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 17:07 Belisarius wrote:
So has anyone worked out how to efficiently jungle bat or darkseer from level 1 in 6.79?
It seems like you have to pretty much inhabit the pull for the first few minutes, or slowly chip away at a medium camp while praying you don't accidentally mud golems. Bat's base damage nerf doesn't help; it seems hard to clear the easy camp in time to stack the hard one now. it's slower but it's the same as before it's easier on dire because the two medium camps are closer on both heroes continuously stack the hard camp and clear whichever camp isn't golems sometimes you have to walk to the easy camp (counterward it if necessary) at 5 or 6 minutes clear the stacked hard camp via ion shells or napalm + firefly
The medium camps are a lot harder to kill at level 1 though, unless you luck out and get satyrs. Bat can do it real slowly by firefly cliff jungling or good old fashioned kiting, while DS seems to have to resort to shelling a minor creep and running around in circles, which is even slower. Getting his level 2 shell takes for-freaking-ever, and you really want that before starting on the hard stack.
If you have a replay of a 6-minute level 6 with either hero I'd love to see it (preferably without RNJesus on your side regarding satyrs/golems), but "slower but the same as before" seems a hell of a lot slower for me.
Something I've wanted to play around with for a while is using ion shell to self-stack the medium camps while stacking the hard camp at the same time. The timing seem to be a bit erratic, but it works sometimes.
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On November 26 2013 19:39 Mataza wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 17:07 Belisarius wrote:
So has anyone worked out how to efficiently jungle bat or darkseer from level 1 in 6.79?
It seems like you have to pretty much inhabit the pull for the first few minutes, or slowly chip away at a medium camp while praying you don't accidentally mud golems. Bat's base damage nerf doesn't help; it seems hard to clear the easy camp in time to stack the hard one now. Being the one to pull is in my opinion a really good alternative. You basically up the number of heroes in your safelane by 1 without actually suffering the usual lack of experience and gold. Just stack the small camp, pull it, and then clear it after your lanecreeps are dead. Two small camps should give level 2 unless you split it with multiple heroes. Don't fret over not being able to pull the next minute because you kill the camp. If the offlane is worth a damn they would start disrupting your pull or leeching exp. Also control the pull at top lane properly. If the creepwave is coming, keep the neutrals in their camp(= stand in the camp and attack those who get attacked by your range creep) so you don't have an uncontrolled continuous pull. Aside from that batrider/ds shouldn't have big progblems in jungle now.
I don't like this idea of pulling, better tank it and clear it before the 1 minute mark and repeat than messing the lane control of your mates.
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On November 27 2013 00:04 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 19:39 Mataza wrote:On November 26 2013 17:07 Belisarius wrote:
So has anyone worked out how to efficiently jungle bat or darkseer from level 1 in 6.79?
It seems like you have to pretty much inhabit the pull for the first few minutes, or slowly chip away at a medium camp while praying you don't accidentally mud golems. Bat's base damage nerf doesn't help; it seems hard to clear the easy camp in time to stack the hard one now. Being the one to pull is in my opinion a really good alternative. You basically up the number of heroes in your safelane by 1 without actually suffering the usual lack of experience and gold. Just stack the small camp, pull it, and then clear it after your lanecreeps are dead. Two small camps should give level 2 unless you split it with multiple heroes. Don't fret over not being able to pull the next minute because you kill the camp. If the offlane is worth a damn they would start disrupting your pull or leeching exp. Also control the pull at top lane properly. If the creepwave is coming, keep the neutrals in their camp(= stand in the camp and attack those who get attacked by your range creep) so you don't have an uncontrolled continuous pull. Aside from that batrider/ds shouldn't have big progblems in jungle now. I don't like this idea of pulling, better tank it and clear it before the 1 minute mark and repeat than messing the lane control of your mates.
That's what I wrote? Stand inside and attack those creeps who could wander into your lane. Obviously you will get hit.
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So I mid as TA against viper and I had a really rough time. Is it just one of those match up where you are pretty much countered?
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Yeah you lose that matchup.
Beg for ganks, or go ganking yourself or whatever. Just don't die is what really matters.
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On November 27 2013 04:17 SheaR619 wrote:
So I mid as TA against viper and I had a really rough time. Is it just one of those match up where you are pretty much countered?
No chance. TA's greatest strength is nullified completely from viper's dots. I would consider abandoning the lane completely and swap with someone else, have someone from a sidelane join you, or just sit back and grab levels with no lasthits.
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United States47024 Posts
If you get to Bottle you shouldn't need to ditch the lane with Bottle-Crow. Though you probably need teammates to pool you tangos or put pressure on Viper for you to get those lasthits for Bottle.
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On November 27 2013 04:33 TheYango wrote:
If you get to Bottle you shouldn't need to ditch the lane with Bottle-Crow. Though you probably need teammates to pool you tangos or put pressure on Viper for you to get those lasthits for Bottle.
How you figure? I don't think the problems goes away even with a bottle. Any time you go for a lasthit, viper will toss a dot on you that takes away any refraction you might or might not have. You could try to dodge it with invis, even through the fade time, but then he takes any lasthits for as long as he wants, or he just tosses a new dot on you when you come out of it. You shouldn't be in danger of dying, but you wont be able to go for many lasthits.
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On November 27 2013 04:43 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2013 04:33 TheYango wrote:
If you get to Bottle you shouldn't need to ditch the lane with Bottle-Crow. Though you probably need teammates to pool you tangos or put pressure on Viper for you to get those lasthits for Bottle. How you figure? I don't think the problems goes away even with a bottle. Any time you go for a lasthit, viper will toss a dot on you that takes away any refraction you might or might not have. You could try to dodge it with invis, even through the fade time, but then he takes any lasthits for as long as he wants, or he just tosses a new dot on you when you come out of it. You shouldn't be in danger of dying, but you wont be able to go for many lasthits.
the fadetime on meld is like .0001 seconds or maybe another zero. Fade time isn't going to be an issue.
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okay thx, I kinda figure that would be the case. I just wonder if it was possible to break even at most or any possible way to do better without completely losing the lane.
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On November 27 2013 04:51 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2013 04:43 Excludos wrote:On November 27 2013 04:33 TheYango wrote:
If you get to Bottle you shouldn't need to ditch the lane with Bottle-Crow. Though you probably need teammates to pool you tangos or put pressure on Viper for you to get those lasthits for Bottle. How you figure? I don't think the problems goes away even with a bottle. Any time you go for a lasthit, viper will toss a dot on you that takes away any refraction you might or might not have. You could try to dodge it with invis, even through the fade time, but then he takes any lasthits for as long as he wants, or he just tosses a new dot on you when you come out of it. You shouldn't be in danger of dying, but you wont be able to go for many lasthits. the fadetime on meld is like .0001 seconds or maybe another zero. Fade time isn't going to be an issue.
One less zero actually, but your point still stands. I had it mixed up with the fade time from shadow amulet.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 27 2013 04:43 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2013 04:33 TheYango wrote:
If you get to Bottle you shouldn't need to ditch the lane with Bottle-Crow. Though you probably need teammates to pool you tangos or put pressure on Viper for you to get those lasthits for Bottle. How you figure? I don't think the problems goes away even with a bottle. Any time you go for a lasthit, viper will toss a dot on you that takes away any refraction you might or might not have. You could try to dodge it with invis, even through the fade time, but then he takes any lasthits for as long as he wants, or he just tosses a new dot on you when you come out of it. You shouldn't be in danger of dying, but you wont be able to go for many lasthits.
It takes away Refraction and you take damage, but you pretty much will never miss any lasthits you go for thanks to the bonus damage, and while it will be uncomfortable to take so much damage, repeated Bottle trips on the courier should keep you from having to go home.
The only caveat is if you let him freeze the lane somewhere where he can punish you way harder for each lasthit (like if he freezes on his ramp and you have to walk up the ramp to get lasthits), then things get really rough.
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On November 26 2013 22:09 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 17:32 Dead9 wrote:On November 26 2013 17:07 Belisarius wrote:
So has anyone worked out how to efficiently jungle bat or darkseer from level 1 in 6.79?
It seems like you have to pretty much inhabit the pull for the first few minutes, or slowly chip away at a medium camp while praying you don't accidentally mud golems. Bat's base damage nerf doesn't help; it seems hard to clear the easy camp in time to stack the hard one now. it's slower but it's the same as before it's easier on dire because the two medium camps are closer on both heroes continuously stack the hard camp and clear whichever camp isn't golems sometimes you have to walk to the easy camp (counterward it if necessary) at 5 or 6 minutes clear the stacked hard camp via ion shells or napalm + firefly The medium camps are a lot harder to kill at level 1 though, unless you luck out and get satyrs. Bat can do it real slowly by firefly cliff jungling or good old fashioned kiting, while DS seems to have to resort to shelling a minor creep and running around in circles, which is even slower. Getting his level 2 shell takes for-freaking-ever, and you really want that before starting on the hard stack. If you have a replay of a 6-minute level 6 with either hero I'd love to see it (preferably without RNJesus on your side regarding satyrs/golems), but "slower but the same as before" seems a hell of a lot slower for me. Something I've wanted to play around with for a while is using ion shell to self-stack the medium camps while stacking the hard camp at the same time. The timing seem to be a bit erratic, but it works sometimes.
6 at 6 is very doable for both heroes assuming noone interrupts you, you only have to clear one camp a minute and clear the stacked hard camp at 5min
if you get double golems it kind of sucks though
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we need a thread for unorthodox strategies
what is viability of silencing team (krob+silencer+drow ranger, maybe riki also) potentially 15s silence (or silencer can get refresher for 20s+). the enemies can dispel once with manta maybe twice with diffusal, and if they get bkb silencer turns on ult. on paper, the silence team doesn't have to worry about getting focussed down, locked down, nuked and can strictly get armor and damage items
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the chances of landing chain silences with that lineup are as good as trying to hit a blackhole without blink. you have no lockdown either to keep heroes in place, meaning youre not going to land multiple silences, let alone on multiple heroes
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On November 27 2013 04:51 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2013 04:43 Excludos wrote:On November 27 2013 04:33 TheYango wrote:
If you get to Bottle you shouldn't need to ditch the lane with Bottle-Crow. Though you probably need teammates to pool you tangos or put pressure on Viper for you to get those lasthits for Bottle. How you figure? I don't think the problems goes away even with a bottle. Any time you go for a lasthit, viper will toss a dot on you that takes away any refraction you might or might not have. You could try to dodge it with invis, even through the fade time, but then he takes any lasthits for as long as he wants, or he just tosses a new dot on you when you come out of it. You shouldn't be in danger of dying, but you wont be able to go for many lasthits. the fadetime on meld is like .0001 seconds or maybe another zero. Fade time isn't going to be an issue.
You can't dodge viper's orb with invis anyway.
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On November 27 2013 18:15 saltywet wrote:
we need a thread for unorthodox strategies
what is viability of silencing team (krob+silencer+drow ranger, maybe riki also) potentially 15s silence (or silencer can get refresher for 20s+). the enemies can dispel once with manta maybe twice with diffusal, and if they get bkb silencer turns on ult. on paper, the silence team doesn't have to worry about getting focussed down, locked down, nuked and can strictly get armor and damage items
Point is that altough could be good, ur better off with silincer with orb. Thats 10 seconds. U only need to take out 1 or two targets (rp or blackhole or naga etc), rest is obsolete or has less impact spells. I like a halberdteam more in combination with silincer+orb (noob opinion).
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EPT
