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On November 26 2013 02:56 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 00:56 SolarFlare93 wrote:I was in a game where I went Mjollnir on Alchemist as a hard carry. My friends (never playing with them again) started bitching and whining about that item and insisted battle fury was better. What are your thoughts? One of them also said they saw battle fury on alchemist in the International - as far as my memory goes, I recall Alchemist in TI3 having mjollnir, BKB, and assault cuirass more often as a hard carry. My reasoning for Mjollnir is the attack speed bonus on Alchemist is insanely nice. Battle fury may give cleave, the extra damage, but mjollnir's procs and the lightning armor thing gives great damage output as well. The extra attack speed lets me proc more of the chain lightning and together with assault cuirass, it blends so well with Alchemist's ultimate. Battle fury gives me regen which I can get from my ultimate and the mana regen it gives isn't required given that I don't spam anything other than the ulti when I farm. Side note: this game was awful... the suicide lane lost and kept diving with at trilane... I wasn't used to playing alchemist so I tried to kill Riki and that backfired. We got pub stomped because everyone wanted to play carry and had horrible decision making. Under all that pressure I tried to squeeze in all the farm I could get my hands on. I made too many mistakes in lane and was quite pissed off hence stupid decisions and many deaths. http://dotabuff.com/matches/399068325 no pro, but my opinion is that molnjir is a good item on fasthitters no hardcarries. Like, Windrunner, Juggernaut(+refresher+mom), EMber spirit because of the chance u do AOE magic damage. Magic damage and AC do not interact, so i think ur better off with BF if u go for a AC. Point is that it isnt a carry item becuz it doesnt scale well. From the moment u buy it, it gets weaker as the game progresses and therefore it sucks on a lategame carry. Atleast the special ability from the BF (Spreading the damage) scales. And it doesnt give u armour, it gives u extra magicdamage when they attack. When bkb is on, molnjir+buffs does nothing expect flashy lighting  So, ur better off with a battlefury (damage and cleave still work against bkb), or u must rly hit an early timing, else BF!
Mjollnir gives most attack speed per item in game and for a melee carry that most likely will build a Basher and later an Abyssal that is pretty strong, also the Chemical Rage reducing BAT makes attack speed very very valuable for Alch.
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i always have trouble itemising OD. if team doesn't have a good mek carrier, i try to get one after treads wand, and then proceed from there. of course, i understand that itemising is situational, but is force staff core on OD? i see it quite often, but i feel like it's not always necessary.
in my head there are a couple of items i could go after mek
- force
- bkb
- rush sheepstick
- rod of atos? though i remember yango saying it doesn't actually synergise that well with OD's kit.
and i always try to get AC later because OD lacks attack speed.
also, would you want to get midas only when you are 1 position?
thoughts? this is all assuming OD is mid.
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On November 26 2013 04:28 zeehar wrote:
i always have trouble itemising OD. if team doesn't have a good mek carrier, i try to get one after treads wand, and then proceed from there. of course, i understand that itemising is situational, but is force staff core on OD? i see it quite often, but i feel like it's not always necessary.
in my head there are a couple of items i could go after mek
- force
- bkb
- rush sheepstick
- rod of atos? though i remember yango saying it doesn't actually synergise that well with OD's kit.
and i always try to get AC later because OD lacks attack speed.
also, would you want to get midas only when you are 1 position?
thoughts? this is all assuming OD is mid.
force is really good because apart from your imprison, you don't have an escape
mek helps you survive a bit longer, but if you get chain-stunned, you're dead
it also helps you chase and imprison while you wait for your team to set up
basically it's a really nice utility item that gives you good int+
generally getting bkb over sheepstick is the safer route, but if you aren't getting focused or dying, go for sheep
rod of aui is actually pretty good against melee carries, it's a nice psudo disable that allows you to kite them for a long time (it gives really good int, also)
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On November 26 2013 00:56 SolarFlare93 wrote:I was in a game where I went Mjollnir on Alchemist as a hard carry. My friends (never playing with them again) started bitching and whining about that item and insisted battle fury was better. What are your thoughts? One of them also said they saw battle fury on alchemist in the International - as far as my memory goes, I recall Alchemist in TI3 having mjollnir, BKB, and assault cuirass more often as a hard carry. My reasoning for Mjollnir is the attack speed bonus on Alchemist is insanely nice. Battle fury may give cleave, the extra damage, but mjollnir's procs and the lightning armor thing gives great damage output as well. The extra attack speed lets me proc more of the chain lightning and together with assault cuirass, it blends so well with Alchemist's ultimate. Battle fury gives me regen which I can get from my ultimate and the mana regen it gives isn't required given that I don't spam anything other than the ulti when I farm. Side note: this game was awful... the suicide lane lost and kept diving with at trilane... I wasn't used to playing alchemist so I tried to kill Riki and that backfired. We got pub stomped because everyone wanted to play carry and had horrible decision making. Under all that pressure I tried to squeeze in all the farm I could get my hands on. I made too many mistakes in lane and was quite pissed off hence stupid decisions and many deaths. http://dotabuff.com/matches/399068325
Mjolnir is good on him imo but I feel like AC is pretty much a must on alchemist because it give him attack speed and armor reduction which synergizes with the acid spray. Alchemist also really need armor so AC provide him armor and attack speed. By going Mjolnir, you already have your attack speed so if you go AC, they kind of overlap and you will only mainly benefit from the armor and armor reduction from AC. So personally I prefer neither.
If you are debating on weither to get Battlefury or Mjolnir, a good rule of thumb is that Mjolnir is more useful to fight in the mid game while still helping you farm to an extent. While battlefury is pretty much purely for farming. So if you wana be aggressive, get Mjolnir and if you wana be passive and farm get battlefury. This is true for other hero such as void who are also a prime candidate for both item.
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On November 26 2013 04:24 Oukka wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 02:56 govie wrote:On November 26 2013 00:56 SolarFlare93 wrote:I was in a game where I went Mjollnir on Alchemist as a hard carry. My friends (never playing with them again) started bitching and whining about that item and insisted battle fury was better. What are your thoughts? One of them also said they saw battle fury on alchemist in the International - as far as my memory goes, I recall Alchemist in TI3 having mjollnir, BKB, and assault cuirass more often as a hard carry. My reasoning for Mjollnir is the attack speed bonus on Alchemist is insanely nice. Battle fury may give cleave, the extra damage, but mjollnir's procs and the lightning armor thing gives great damage output as well. The extra attack speed lets me proc more of the chain lightning and together with assault cuirass, it blends so well with Alchemist's ultimate. Battle fury gives me regen which I can get from my ultimate and the mana regen it gives isn't required given that I don't spam anything other than the ulti when I farm. Side note: this game was awful... the suicide lane lost and kept diving with at trilane... I wasn't used to playing alchemist so I tried to kill Riki and that backfired. We got pub stomped because everyone wanted to play carry and had horrible decision making. Under all that pressure I tried to squeeze in all the farm I could get my hands on. I made too many mistakes in lane and was quite pissed off hence stupid decisions and many deaths. http://dotabuff.com/matches/399068325 no pro, but my opinion is that molnjir is a good item on fasthitters no hardcarries. Like, Windrunner, Juggernaut(+refresher+mom), EMber spirit because of the chance u do AOE magic damage. Magic damage and AC do not interact, so i think ur better off with BF if u go for a AC. Point is that it isnt a carry item becuz it doesnt scale well. From the moment u buy it, it gets weaker as the game progresses and therefore it sucks on a lategame carry. Atleast the special ability from the BF (Spreading the damage) scales. And it doesnt give u armour, it gives u extra magicdamage when they attack. When bkb is on, molnjir+buffs does nothing expect flashy lighting So, ur better off with a battlefury (damage and cleave still work against bkb), or u must rly hit an early timing, else BF! Mjollnir gives most attack speed per item in game and for a melee carry that most likely will build a Basher and later an Abyssal that is pretty strong, also the Chemical Rage reducing BAT makes attack speed very very valuable for Alch.
I know the attackspeed helps, every items helps somehow and if its attackspeed u want a nakedhyperstone + 3000 gold earlier abbysal would do just as well or even better ecowise. I just dont like to use 2 procs on 1 hero and therefore i would favor a BF+abbysal unstead of a Molnjir+abbysal (i thought they cancel eachother out sometimes, making the abbysal less usefull=more dangerous or atleast less procs/gold).
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On November 26 2013 04:50 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 04:24 Oukka wrote:On November 26 2013 02:56 govie wrote:On November 26 2013 00:56 SolarFlare93 wrote:I was in a game where I went Mjollnir on Alchemist as a hard carry. My friends (never playing with them again) started bitching and whining about that item and insisted battle fury was better. What are your thoughts? One of them also said they saw battle fury on alchemist in the International - as far as my memory goes, I recall Alchemist in TI3 having mjollnir, BKB, and assault cuirass more often as a hard carry. My reasoning for Mjollnir is the attack speed bonus on Alchemist is insanely nice. Battle fury may give cleave, the extra damage, but mjollnir's procs and the lightning armor thing gives great damage output as well. The extra attack speed lets me proc more of the chain lightning and together with assault cuirass, it blends so well with Alchemist's ultimate. Battle fury gives me regen which I can get from my ultimate and the mana regen it gives isn't required given that I don't spam anything other than the ulti when I farm. Side note: this game was awful... the suicide lane lost and kept diving with at trilane... I wasn't used to playing alchemist so I tried to kill Riki and that backfired. We got pub stomped because everyone wanted to play carry and had horrible decision making. Under all that pressure I tried to squeeze in all the farm I could get my hands on. I made too many mistakes in lane and was quite pissed off hence stupid decisions and many deaths. http://dotabuff.com/matches/399068325 no pro, but my opinion is that molnjir is a good item on fasthitters no hardcarries. Like, Windrunner, Juggernaut(+refresher+mom), EMber spirit because of the chance u do AOE magic damage. Magic damage and AC do not interact, so i think ur better off with BF if u go for a AC. Point is that it isnt a carry item becuz it doesnt scale well. From the moment u buy it, it gets weaker as the game progresses and therefore it sucks on a lategame carry. Atleast the special ability from the BF (Spreading the damage) scales. And it doesnt give u armour, it gives u extra magicdamage when they attack. When bkb is on, molnjir+buffs does nothing expect flashy lighting So, ur better off with a battlefury (damage and cleave still work against bkb), or u must rly hit an early timing, else BF! Mjollnir gives most attack speed per item in game and for a melee carry that most likely will build a Basher and later an Abyssal that is pretty strong, also the Chemical Rage reducing BAT makes attack speed very very valuable for Alch. I know the attackspeed helps, every items helps somehow and if its attackspeed u want a nakedhyperstone + 3000 gold earlier abbysal would do just as well or even better ecowise. I just dont like to use 2 procs on 1 hero and therefore i would favor a BF+abbysal unstead of a Molnjir+abbysal (i thought they cancel eachother out sometimes, making the abbysal less usefull=more dangerous or atleast less procs/gold).
Bash and Chain Lightining (or whatever the Mjollnir proc is called) should not overlap if I remember it correctly. But I can see that Mjollnir could be an overkill on the attack speed department.
Another big thing is that I'd build Mjollnir a lot later that Battlefury. I might get Maelstorm for farming waves after Armlet if I weren't forced to get BKB immediately, but other than that I'd probably get Mjollnir only as a sixth item after Boots-Armlet-BKB-Basher/Abyssal-AC. And especially with Armlet that works really well with the new ulti there is probably enough attack speed before Mjollnir so I'd rather get Heart/Satanic/MKB/Butterfly depending on the situation.
So basically Mjollnir is fine (in my uneducated opinion) in Armlet-less builds, where you get maelstorm for waveclearing as first item. Other than that I wouldn't get it, and Battle Fury is even less attractive I feel.
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I prefer going shadow blade on alch with a maxed concoction. Then ac and basher. I haven't played it since 6.79 so I don't know if the removal of health increase on his ult makes you too squishy, but its more fun to kill heroes with the sblade over farming with mael or bf.
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On November 26 2013 04:28 zeehar wrote:
i always have trouble itemising OD. if team doesn't have a good mek carrier, i try to get one after treads wand, and then proceed from there. of course, i understand that itemising is situational, but is force staff core on OD? i see it quite often, but i feel like it's not always necessary.
Forcestaff is 100% core on OD. It makes him so much harder to gank, and gives a useful early-game int boost. It's just an incredibly useful item for a glass-cannon like OD.
In fact, a lot of players right now just go brown boots ---> null talisman ---> midas ---> forcestaff. It's that good.
in my head there are a couple of items i could go after mek
- force
- bkb
- rush sheepstick
- rod of atos? though i remember yango saying it doesn't actually synergise that well with OD's kit.
In all the games that OD appeared @ MLG (quite a few), I don't think I saw players build mek on him. It seems to be out of style, since arguably force-staff helps OD's survivability more than Mek, and rushing Midas (instead of Mek) helps him scale much faster.
Anyways after force-staff, Mushi and Arteezy preferred some order of Treads/BKB/Sheepstick/Shivas. For the 6th slot, Refresher seems really good, as OD's ult does an unbelievable fuckton of damage, which makes a 2nd ult more valuable than another mediocre int item (Orchid, Atos, etc).
and i always try to get AC later because OD lacks attack speed.
AC is pretty pointless on OD. His damage and ult scale so well with +int stat items, that you should be itemizing the requisite stat items.
The armor aura is always nice for the team, but OD's orbs do pure damage, which makes the -armor pretty pointless. After that, the item's no more useful than an expensive hyperstone.
also, would you want to get midas only when you are 1 position?
Unless you're planning to fight very early on, midas is really good.
(Why you'd draft OD to fight early is beyond me though.)
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If jacking up your attack speed to an insane degree is your overall goal I don't necessarily think mjoll is the way to go given the current issues around the lightning proc (can only have one on screen at once). With AC, Treads, and Mjoll (+150 ias) you should be dealing a minimum of 2.5 attacks/sec in level 3 chemical range (more given your agi). Every 5th attack should proc lightning which would be about once per 2 seconds, but the lightning itself can take over a second to finish jumping around.
Uh it's probably not that bad because if you have mjoll, AC, treads, and basher you're probably doing something right anyways, but I think it lends some credibility to going the bfury or shadowblade route to get there instead.
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OD fights early very well.
Great early stats, virtually guarantees you an early-game advantage since their mid will be stunted, and has a nice big ult. The only thing is that you kinda need level 11 (more range on ult, a point in orb and max imprison/aura) so it depends on your definition of "early". Mek would be amazing if you were going for an "early fight" OD instead of midas.
Refresher is so incredibly good late game for refreshing BKB/Hex/force/Shivas(BoTs as well lol) not just ult. Also shiva's looked to be a priority over sheep at MLG although I'm sure its partially lineup-dependant. OD doesn't have all that much armor moving into the late game without a shivas.
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On November 26 2013 04:28 zeehar wrote:
i always have trouble itemising OD. if team doesn't have a good mek carrier, i try to get one after treads wand, and then proceed from there. of course, i understand that itemising is situational, but is force staff core on OD? i see it quite often, but i feel like it's not always necessary.
in my head there are a couple of items i could go after mek
- force
- bkb
- rush sheepstick
- rod of atos? though i remember yango saying it doesn't actually synergise that well with OD's kit.
and i always try to get AC later because OD lacks attack speed.
also, would you want to get midas only when you are 1 position?
thoughts? this is all assuming OD is mid.
Dont go AC it terrible on OD. Always good to have one on a team but for an OD, it a wasted slot. You are better off with Orchid if you want attack speed which should be enough attack speed. The armor you shuld be getting is shiva anyways if you want armor.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 26 2013 05:45 Hapahauli wrote:
In all the games that OD appeared @ MLG (quite a few), I don't think I saw players build mek on him. It seems to be out of style, since arguably force-staff helps OD's survivability more than Mek, and rushing Midas (instead of Mek) helps him scale much faster.
The majority of those games saw him drafted with a suitable Mek carrier who can farm one just as quickly, if not faster. In the playoffs Fata played the hero twice with no Mek carrier on Sigma, and he got a Mek both games. In all 3 games in the finals, OD didn't buy Mek, BUT was drafted with a Mek carrier for the team (Doom game 1, Chen games 2 and 3). Comparing the items in a vacuum is pointless because it's highly dependent on whether you have an alternative Mek carrier who can get one when it's necessary (a 4th position support who gets zero farm until after laning phase is not an acceptable alternative Mek carrier--either a 3rd position offlane hero that will still have the farm to have one by 15 minutes or a jungler like Enigma or Chen).
Force only takes priority over Mek if your team can have a Mek as well anyway, otherwise Mek is absolutely more important.
On November 26 2013 05:45 Hapahauli wrote:
AC is pretty pointless on OD. His damage and ult scale so well with +int stat items, that you should be itemizing the requisite stat items.
The armor aura is always nice for the team, but OD's orbs do pure damage, which makes the -armor pretty pointless. After that, the item's no more useful than an expensive hyperstone.
AC is very good for OD. The nature of damage scaling on any hero is that if you have a lot of damage, attack speed is better, and if you have a lot of attack speed, damage is better. The benefit of items is not fixed--Intelligence is not the best damage stat the entire game. By your 3rd/4th item (Force+Sheep) you are very damage-heavy making Attack Speed far more valuable than further Intelligence as a damage stat.
The fact that you don't use the -Armor aura is totally irrelevant. If there is just one other carry (and there almost always will be with OD played as a mid hero with another carry in the safe lane) on your team to benefit from the Attack Speed aura, AC gives enough stats for its cost for the -Armor aura to basically be a free bonus.
Really, with regard to AC, there are two questions to ask yourself. First, does Shiva's have a larger impact this game than AC? To oversimplify, Shiva's is stronger when the enemy has more carries (since there are more enemies to be affected by the -atk speed) while AC is stronger when your team has more carries (since there are more teammates that benefit from the +atk speed). Second, will someone else be a more suitable AC carrier? In multi-core teams where OD is often picked, there is frequently a better AC carrier than OD (pretty much all Strength carries). But in the absence of one, as with Mek, buying AC on OD is largely better than no AC at all simply because the absence of the item hurts your team more than having to buy one hurts you individually.
Unless you're planning to fight very early on, midas is really good.
(Why you'd draft OD to fight early is beyond me though.)
OD is a strong early fighter.
When to get Midas is a more complicated question than that. Essentially Midas is strong in situations where based on the state of the game, the next 5-10 minutes will be very farmy because your team cannot accomplish an objective like pushing T2s but at the same time, the enemy won't be able to do so even if you get a Midas.
On November 26 2013 06:38 SheaR619 wrote:
Dont go AC it terrible on OD. Always good to have one on a team but for an OD, it a wasted slot. You are better off with Orchid if you want attack speed which should be enough attack speed. The armor you shuld be getting is shiva anyways if you want armor.
Orchid has more wasted stats than AC (spends more on mana regen than AC spends on the -armor), and Shiva's vs. AC doesn't always favor Shiva's--depends heavily on team compositions on both sides.
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Aren't you ignoring the fact that Orchid and Shivas gives INT which significantly buffs your orb and ulti damage?
I do agree though that OD makes really good use of some extra attackspeed in most lategame scenarios. But if you already have Shiva's for the INT and armor, I think Manta (~40 IAS) or Butterfly (60 IAS) would be better attackspeed+survivability choices over AC.
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United States47024 Posts
And I don't disagree with that--but "already have Shiva's" is not a foregone conclusion when there are plenty of times where AC is outright better than Shiva's in the first place.
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It seems like every time I play a game with Bloodseeker on the enemy's team, he always destroys me, no matter who I am.
What weaknesses does he have that I can take advantage of? It feels like he hits me with rupture, and no matter what I do I'm just dead.
I even got a BKB to protect me from rupture, but it doesn't seem to work
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Just tp out. Bloodseeker has no way to stop you.
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yeah bs ult is hp removal, bkb doesn't help with that
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Bloodseeker lacks a stun, so if you see him trying to solo gank you, don't panic and just TP out before he can deal lethal damage.
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So has anyone worked out how to efficiently jungle bat or darkseer from level 1 in 6.79?
It seems like you have to pretty much inhabit the pull for the first few minutes, or slowly chip away at a medium camp while praying you don't accidentally mud golems. Bat's base damage nerf doesn't help; it seems hard to clear the easy camp in time to stack the hard one now.
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tp out, play safe early game, get support rotation to kill him a few times
a bloodseeker that isnt snowballing is a useless bloodseeker in the mid-late game
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EPT
