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On June 21 2013 23:40 LonelyCat wrote:
In what scenario is vanguard better than the sum of its parts (or since we can't hold them, say PMS/vitbooster/roh) or do these scenarios not really exist? Which (if any heroes) is vanguard ever worth carrying in pubs? My experience is maybe clock if i can get it fast, or AM if my game has gone to shit, but otherwise nothing, but I play with friends who claim its a good pickup on spectre (and a couple more, dark seer for some reason they pick too...).
Why/when (if it ever could) can vanguard not be dissasembled?
As a rule of thumb, vanguard can be a decent item for you IF you would like all of the parts individually (since vanguard doesn't really make any of the pieces much better at all) and you also don't want to consider upgrading any of those parts into other items (since, like you said, it can't be disassembled). I would assume it can't be disassembled because vanguard -> bfury + heart builds would be TOTALLY RAPETRAIN early mid and late game which would not be super fair. Fun though.
Edit: Also how can you pick which orb effect is active? I saw a pro game where a player had 2 orb effects (deso and ?) and could switch which was active somehow (presumably by dropping and picking up an item)? Is it the most recently picked up that is active?
If I'm not mistaken it is indeed the last-acquired one that works, so if you drop the one you got first and pick it back up again it should be the active one.
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Thanks for the info on orbs + when to get vanguard, sounds like poor initiators that need only survivability are its main target then I guess...
I don't think vanguard into bf/heart builds are good because you delay the bf by 1100 because you need a fighting item, which means farming items that aren't great fighting items (eg. maelstrom) are probably less effective anyway? Maybe melee bloodstone carriers would be stronger but timbersaw isn't exactly top notch right now anyway
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On June 21 2013 12:51 Feiya wrote:
Okay. I just saw a lot of familiar skillsets on a lot of heroes so far, obv dont know them in depth. At least Luna is 99% moon queen or whatever her name was^^
ahh, one more question. Can you suggest some streams that are more educative than others? I've got a lot of time on my hand during which i can't play so a streamer or two to look out for would be great.
Purge has a ton of vods up on his Youtube channel. Talks a lot during the games, explaining a ton of stuff.
He's also got this guide on his website, where you can also find his live stream.
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I would classify Vanguard as more of a competitive / high-level Dota item, where the other team has a push composition and you need an item to fight NOW. I've seen PMS+VanG Antimages before.
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On June 22 2013 00:12 LonelyCat wrote:
Thanks for the info on orbs + when to get vanguard, sounds like poor initiators that need only survivability are its main target then I guess...
I don't think vanguard into bf/heart builds are good because you delay the bf by 1100 because you need a fighting item, which means farming items that aren't great fighting items (eg. maelstrom) are probably less effective anyway? Maybe melee bloodstone carriers would be stronger but timbersaw isn't exactly top notch right now anyway
After the massive buffs to timbersaw's spells and bloodstone in the latest patch he's actually quite a beast. I always get a stout shield on him anyway early game and being able to make an intermediate vanguard to disassemble later on would be pretty slick.
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timbersaw is top3 pub hero right now
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get vanguard when u need the stout shield early, need hp, and need regen. pretty straightforward tbh. dont listen to everyone always giving vanguard shit about how bad the item is. it used to be a popular pick up and for good reason, it did its job. if u need some early regen and hp, get a vanguard.
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On June 22 2013 00:41 WuzzupPeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 00:12 LonelyCat wrote:
Thanks for the info on orbs + when to get vanguard, sounds like poor initiators that need only survivability are its main target then I guess...
I don't think vanguard into bf/heart builds are good because you delay the bf by 1100 because you need a fighting item, which means farming items that aren't great fighting items (eg. maelstrom) are probably less effective anyway? Maybe melee bloodstone carriers would be stronger but timbersaw isn't exactly top notch right now anyway After the massive buffs to timbersaw's spells and bloodstone in the latest patch he's actually quite a beast. I always get a stout shield on him anyway early game and being able to make an intermediate vanguard to disassemble later on would be pretty slick.
Yeah, it would be really strong on Timbersaw. It would address one of the main issues with rushing a Bloodstone, which is that the pieces doesn't give you much until it is completed. On the topic of Timbersaw and Bloodstone, I have been playing him a bit recently and I have been trying non-Bloodstone builds. Usually I go Arcane Boots/Urn/Wand -> Rod of Atos -> Eul's, and I have been liking it a bit more than the Bloodstone build. It gives you a lot more utility than Bloodstone and gives you a lot more when you are underfarmed (you can fight pretty well with just Arcane Boots/Wand/Urn). What does everyone else think of Timbersaw without Bloodstone?
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On June 22 2013 00:12 LonelyCat wrote:
Thanks for the info on orbs + when to get vanguard, sounds like poor initiators that need only survivability are its main target then I guess...
I don't think vanguard into bf/heart builds are good because you delay the bf by 1100 because you need a fighting item, which means farming items that aren't great fighting items (eg. maelstrom) are probably less effective anyway? Maybe melee bloodstone carriers would be stronger but timbersaw isn't exactly top notch right now anyway
The ~2k gold you spend on upgrading treads and getting vanguard makes you actually decently tanky in the midgame, and mana void is a good enough spell that Antimage can totally be a great midgame carry if you pick up a vanguard. If you could disassemble that and still get the benefits of the battlefury build (albeit delayed by ~4-5min), he'd be a totally broken hero - vanguard on Antimage is actually REALLY good for the midgame, but the problem with it as is now is that you totally ruin the battlefury route. If you could do both... it'd be insane. I'm sure there are other heroes it would be good on (Alchemist comes to mind right off the bat) but Antimage is just the one I've always wanted to be able to disassemble Vanguard on ^^
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On June 21 2013 11:59 Staboteur wrote:
A HELL OF A LOT OF WISDOM
Great, great post. Add a few images for the ADD and this is a wonderful guide.
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I've been really wanting to learn and improve with Clockwerk recently, but seem to have trouble with when/against who I should pick him as well as what type of items I should be getting. Any suggestions, advice, insight, or recommended resources?
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On June 22 2013 01:19 Inuit wrote:
I've been really wanting to learn and improve with Clockwerk recently, but seem to have trouble with when/against who I should pick him as well as what type of items I should be getting. Any suggestions, advice, insight, or recommended resources?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399818
Generally you pick clock when you need an aggressive initiator that can lock down a single target (often a melee carry).
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When carries have 5k, 6k gold towards the end of a game they are behind on why don't they buy items for less-farmed heroes?
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On June 22 2013 03:32 Olex wrote:
When carries have 5k, 6k gold towards the end of a game they are behind on why don't they buy items for less-farmed heroes?
You can't buy items for other heroes. If you give an item to another hero it will be muted and not provide any benefit. Some exceptions apply like you can pass a ring of regen and it'll give your ally regen, although late game this wouldn't do anything for you.
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On June 22 2013 03:32 Olex wrote:
When carries have 5k, 6k gold towards the end of a game they are behind on why don't they buy items for less-farmed heroes?
You can't buy items for other people, it was disabled in 2008
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Ah, I see heroes pooled at the beginning of the game. Hence the confusion.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 22 2013 03:50 Olex wrote:
Ah, I see heroes pooled at the beginning of the game. Hence the confusion.
Only consumables are fully usable by other heroes (regen items can be used but can't be combined except by the original owner). Pooling at the beginning of the game only applies to consumables.
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Vanguard can never be dissembled imo because
1) Vanguard is actually not a bad item. It let you fight NOW and the damage block is very decent until around 20-30 minute mark.
2) It allows you to be quite tanky all the time as the game progress. Vanguard => Heart transition.
3) Ring of Health becomes the most useful item ever created, since it remains its usefulness throughout every stage of the game.
- Regen for laning phase
- Becomes an awesome Vanguard in the early midgame, when you still need the regen, the extra damage block, and some hp to tank up
- Then becomes almost everything else which is useful for almost every heroes ( Linken & BF for 1 position, situational Bloodstone for the 2 position, and Refresher for the 3) . You're a mid Mag ? Well by Vanguard, hello Refresher. An AM ( or Alch) ? Well thank to the Vanguard I have fight through the early midgame and acquire space to farm, BattleFury here I come.
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On June 22 2013 03:34 Qbek wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2013 03:32 Olex wrote:
When carries have 5k, 6k gold towards the end of a game they are behind on why don't they buy items for less-farmed heroes? You can't buy items for other people, it was disabled in 2008
This was what attracted me to Dota from DDay in the first place. 
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Is MoM really the way to go on Sven these days? I always looked at MoM like a cheesy item, an unreliable gimmick that's not sustainable in the long run, yet any Sven I play against goes MoM and facerolls, where as I'm always needing another item before I get bursted in fights
Gotta get a wand because it's a wand
Then I need boots because boots
Gotta upgrade the boots because treads, 950 gold
Now I have to get some attack speed, need an armlet/maelstrom, 2700 gold
And magic immunity, bkb, back to jungle for another 4k gold while my team 4v5s
And then I need lifesteal to outlast the other carry, another 1850
It seems like I have this never-ending shopping list that won't allow me to last more than 5 seconds without it, yet the MoM people just snowball their way to whatever their heart desires, like hearts. Am I just misinformed about MoM or do my opponents get kills faster then I can farm?
To put it in perspective, I can go Antifun, grab a battlefury and farm a manta in the next 5 minutes of jungling/pushing, and then hop into fights and break faces, buying whatever else I need along the way, whereas anything short of 6-slotted, non MoM Sven just doesn't make the cut.
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EPT
