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KOFgokuon
United States14912 Posts
On June 15 2013 14:43 taldarimAltar wrote: Why 1 tango and 1 salve instead of 2 tango? I'm cheap and always get my sapphire water dispelled so i always get 2 tango... Does that make me bad? Short answer is yes. Just back off for 8 seconds after you use the salve stop being greedy | ||
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
On June 15 2013 13:19 TheYango wrote: Tusk is a lot like Nyx in terms of farm priority and general tempo. Good as a mid ganker, decent as a 4th position ganking support, not all that appealing as a "hard" 5th position support. My impression was that nyx was/is quite often played as 5, especially in the nyx/kotl combo that was all the rage for a while. I mean faith plays him for IG for example right? And I agree that tusk should be able to perform pretty much the same role. Stronger pre-lvl6 ganks than nyx which is very important for a support but lack of spiked carapace makes him much squisher and less impactful in the midgame. | ||
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synapse
China13814 Posts
On June 16 2013 01:28 KlaCkoN wrote: My impression was that nyx was/is quite often played as 5, especially in the nyx/kotl combo that was all the rage for a while. I mean faith plays him for IG for example right? And I agree that tusk should be able to perform pretty much the same role. Stronger pre-lvl6 ganks than nyx which is very important for a support but lack of spiked carapace makes him much squisher and less impactful in the midgame. The exp priority would obviously go to nyx between him and kotl since his 6 is extremely important. kotl is the 5th position in that setup, at least until nyx gets decent levels and arcanes up. | ||
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
On June 16 2013 02:47 synapse wrote: The exp priority would obviously go to nyx between him and kotl since his 6 is extremely important. kotl is the 5th position in that setup, at least until nyx gets decent levels and arcanes up. I guess. But if the enemy starts pushing the offlane tier1 kotl will be sent there to defend and by the 10-15 minute mark he is almost guaranteed more gold than nyx. | ||
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JtxRsix
United States25 Posts
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Mataza
Germany5364 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8945 Posts
On June 16 2013 02:47 synapse wrote: The exp priority would obviously go to nyx between him and kotl since his 6 is extremely important. kotl is the 5th position in that setup, at least until nyx gets decent levels and arcanes up. u cant "prioritise" exp. for supports, most of their exp come from kills/assists, so youre either there to leech the exp or youre dead/not in range. as for farm, kotl gets more simply by stopping pushes. if nyx and kotl were both in their jungle killing camps then usually it doesnt really matter unless some quick money is needed for an item. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14081 Posts
On June 16 2013 05:27 evilfatsh1t wrote: u cant "prioritise" exp. for supports, most of their exp come from kills/assists, so youre either there to leech the exp or youre dead/not in range. as for farm, kotl gets more simply by stopping pushes. if nyx and kotl were both in their jungle killing camps then usually it doesnt really matter unless some quick money is needed for an item. Yes you can. You send the KotL zoning/stacking hard camps and the Nyx pulling. Later on you let the Nyx be around when the KotL clears jungle stacks. Suddenly more xp on Nyx than KotL. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
Lastly, why is HotD not a core on Tiny? He can really use the armor and damage, plus he benefits a lot from creeps by stacking ancients or tossing a Centaur/ Hellbear for long range initiation (which can "channel" their abilities mid air). Frost armor and packleader's aura are also really effective on him. | ||
Firebolt145
Lalalaland34510 Posts
On June 16 2013 08:27 Saechiis wrote: Is there any reason a support like tree doesn't buy his mid a bottle at the beginning of the game? Also, why are roles in Dota so rigid when it comes to farm distribution? It seems like there's supports who can really dominate early game with a fast 6 and a key item, yet they're designated to starve from the get go hoping their carry gets to a good start. Why not let farm distribution be decided by the impact a hero has in a certain stage of the game? Lastly, why is HotD not a core on Tiny? He can really use the armor and damage, plus he benefits a lot from creeps by stacking ancients or tossing a Centaur/ Hellbear for long range initiation (which can "channel" their abilities mid air). Frost armor and packleader's aura are also really effective on him. Because having a few early stats on your supports (even one like tree who probably is the one who can go without stats the most) is more important than having a bottle from the start of the game. A 0 minute bottle is very much useless; ideally you'd get it around 1:30 or so because that's when you can use the regen to push the lane so you can control the next rune. | ||
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34510 Posts
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nojok
France15846 Posts
On June 16 2013 08:27 Saechiis wrote: Is there any reason a support like tree doesn't buy his mid a bottle at the beginning of the game? Also, why are roles in Dota so rigid when it comes to farm distribution? It seems like there's supports who can really dominate early game with a fast 6 and a key item, yet they're designated to starve from the get go hoping their carry gets to a good start. Why not let farm distribution be decided by the impact a hero has in a certain stage of the game? Lastly, why is HotD not a core on Tiny? He can really use the armor and damage, plus he benefits a lot from creeps by stacking ancients or tossing a Centaur/ Hellbear for long range initiation (which can "channel" their abilities mid air). Frost armor and packleader's aura are also really effective on him. Mid does not really need his bottle that fast, he will get in few mins, better getting wards, pooling tangoes, courier but I've already heard of pooling an entire bottle (mid who still got 1st blooded lol). Cocnerning farm, all items boosting attacks stacks (ASxdmgxpassive) whereas spellcasters items won't scale as well later in the game and it becomes hard to break base. Concerning tiny, he already has high damage but really slow attacks speed, you gain way more DPS if you buy an hyperstone/yasha (approximately the same price), but it would be cool to see your trick happening with a chen creep. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On June 16 2013 08:35 nojok wrote: Mid does not really need his bottle that fast, he will get in few mins, better getting wards, pooling tangoes, courier but I've already heard of pooling an entire bottle (mid who still got 1st blooded lol). Cocnerning farm, all items boosting attacks stacks (ASxdmgxpassive) whereas spellcasters items won't scale as well later in the game and it becomes hard to break base. Concerning tiny, he already has high damage but really slow attacks speed, you gain way more DPS if you buy an hyperstone/yasha (approximately the same price), but it would be cool to see your trick happening with a chen creep. Centaur gives 15 AS aura, but I get your point. Until I get aghanim's I usually treat Tiny as a caster rather than a right click carry (basi, (tranquils), treads, domi, agha, hyper, AC etc). It really goes back to my feeling that neutral creeps are being underused, especially frost armor (8 armor + 20% AS/MS slow vs attackers which are already dealing with craggy exterior) and packleader's aura (lvl 16 Tiny has about 260 base damage, 30% of that is 78 bonus dmg, about an MKB's worth in bonus damage), which also benefit your allies. It also scales well with the upgrade to Satanic ¯\(ツ)/¯ With the supports I meant that, for instance, nyx might be given lane farm to get quick lvl 6 and arcanes from which point he gives the actual lategame carries space to farm. Which reminds me of another question I had, why do I see supports dying planting wards while their team has high mobilty/ escape heroes that could plant them? Mostly my confusion with the rigidity of roles in Dota I think. | ||
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Mataza
Germany5364 Posts
There are teams even at the highest level that give farm to their supports. Mekansm, pipe, drums, wards and boots are items that you want on your supports. How to get that gold onto your non-carries is an important aspect of teamplay. Most common ways in public should be getting kills, pulling into jungle and holding empty lanes. My friends and I also sometimes do the cardinal sin and let the support lasthit up to several creeps so he can get his next item up. This, in my experience, can go horribly wrong with public players though. edit: Apparently we're also talking about experience. The solution to that is ususally to leech exp. Only very few people I've ever met have a problem with that. Just tailgate a farmer. You protect him in case he gets ganked and you leech the exp of the stuff he kills. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
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synapse
China13814 Posts
On June 16 2013 08:27 Saechiis wrote: Is there any reason a support like tree doesn't buy his mid a bottle at the beginning of the game? Also, why are roles in Dota so rigid when it comes to farm distribution? It seems like there's supports who can really dominate early game with a fast 6 and a key item, yet they're designated to starve from the get go hoping their carry gets to a good start. Why not let farm distribution be decided by the impact a hero has in a certain stage of the game? Lastly, why is HotD not a core on Tiny? He can really use the armor and damage, plus he benefits a lot from creeps by stacking ancients or tossing a Centaur/ Hellbear for long range initiation (which can "channel" their abilities mid air). Frost armor and packleader's aura are also really effective on him. Not really. What he lacks is mobility for initiation, attack speed, and mana for his spells (hence why blink, lothars, drums, yasha are popular items). Damage comes naturally from grow and he already gets some armor from his craggy exterior passive. If you need the armor then you just build AC. The problem with getting helm to stack is that you're delaying the item that actually allows you to clear the stack. Honestly I would probably prefer going singsing MoM over HotD. HotD is really great on gyro or DK (for example) where you have a spell that allows you to clear a big camp but has a long cooldown. Therefore it's more efficient for them to stack the ancients as much as possible then clear it in one go. Once tiny has aghs his farming ability is already through the roof, you don't really need to be stacking ancients anymore. On June 16 2013 09:21 Erasme wrote: mekansm and pipe are items you want on your 2nd or third position Mek depends on what supports you have (damn kotls get so much farm just from antipush), but yeah pipe is almost never a good idea to get on a support. Takes too long to farm one, gives you massive hp regen when supports tend to have shitty total hp anyway. | ||
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Ryrmidon
Canada371 Posts
On June 16 2013 08:27 Saechiis wrote: Is there any reason a support like tree doesn't buy his mid a bottle at the beginning of the game? Also, why are roles in Dota so rigid when it comes to farm distribution? It seems like there's supports who can really dominate early game with a fast 6 and a key item, yet they're designated to starve from the get go hoping their carry gets to a good start. Why not let farm distribution be decided by the impact a hero has in a certain stage of the game? Lastly, why is HotD not a core on Tiny? He can really use the armor and damage, plus he benefits a lot from creeps by stacking ancients or tossing a Centaur/ Hellbear for long range initiation (which can "channel" their abilities mid air). Frost armor and packleader's aura are also really effective on him. Heroes that dominate the game with a level boost are generally sent to the midlane. Switching farm priority to the extent you suggest just isn't optimal. Carry heroes need to get a head start so they can efficiently farm by themselves. Otherwise you need supports constantly babysitting them because it would be too easy for the opponent to drive them out of lane, on top of the player being behind the opponent's carry because he's lost out on ~5+ minutes worth of farm. Theres 3 lanes to farm and 5 heroes, so the most efficient set up to begin the game is to get 3 heroes trying to farm their lanes and 2 "supporting" heroes that can impact the game with minimal farm and levels. | ||
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igotmyown
United States4291 Posts
On June 16 2013 09:10 Saechiis wrote: Centaur gives 15 AS aura, but I get your point. Until I get aghanim's I usually treat Tiny as a caster rather than a right click carry (basi, (tranquils), treads, domi, agha, hyper, AC etc). It really goes back to my feeling that neutral creeps are being underused, especially frost armor (8 armor + 20% AS/MS slow vs attackers which are already dealing with craggy exterior) and packleader's aura (lvl 16 Tiny has about 260 base damage, 30% of that is 78 bonus dmg, about an MKB's worth in bonus damage), which also benefit your allies. It also scales well with the upgrade to Satanic ¯\(ツ)/¯ With the supports I meant that, for instance, nyx might be given lane farm to get quick lvl 6 and arcanes from which point he gives the actual lategame carries space to farm. Which reminds me of another question I had, why do I see supports dying planting wards while their team has high mobilty/ escape heroes that could plant them? Mostly my confusion with the rigidity of roles in Dota I think. I used to take risks dying to plant wards, but g1 league has showed me chinese will never take those risks to plant it. So I tell my team I'm not doing it unless they back me up. A lot of teams have the supports buy the wards for mid at 6 minutes. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
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