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On June 14 2013 01:54 TheYango wrote:
If you're really fed, Dagon+Travels is an alternative option. It's not practical for competitive games, but in pub games where your team won't group and push, and you need to increase your solo-killing ability to advance the game, Dagon->Travels enhances that a lot. Brown Boots + Dagon is similar in cost to Arcanes + Mek.
Ultimately, regardless of how you play him, Pugna is an early-game focused hero. You need to snowball the game because without a hard disable or heavily scaling damage output, his lategame can only be considered mediocre compared to other lategame casters (Storm, Tinker, Leshrac, etc.). As such, it simply does not fit him to farm until Bloodstone. You need earlier item timings to match your earlier power peak.
As far as pub builds go I really like blink -> bkb =) a quick blink on Pugna can actually be really good with his ulti + blast combo, making it really hard for them to break your ulti if you use it judiciously (not jumping into 3 stuns, etc) and get right up next to them. It may not be very good, but it's fun as heeeeellllllllll
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I've been thinking about (and writing a CM guide) and wondering if there are base item images that I can use instead of uploading each to TL individually.
Also after I'm 90% done I realize there's already a CM guide and I should have done Dazzle first! But that will hopefully happen (assuming I don't get get horrible feedback from the CM guide I'm working on).
Long story short, are there item images I can use (maybe off liquipedia?) or should I upload each individually?
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On June 14 2013 07:57 Verror wrote:
I've been thinking about (and writing a CM guide) and wondering if there are base item images that I can use instead of uploading each to TL individually.
Also after I'm 90% done I realize there's already a CM guide and I should have done Dazzle first! But that will hopefully happen (assuming I don't get get horrible feedback from the CM guide I'm working on).
Long story short, are there item images I can use (maybe off liquipedia?) or should I upload each individually?
Are you talking about actually taking item screenshots and then cropping and uploading them yourself? That's hella inefficient, just search the item on liquipedia -> rightclick the thumbnail in top right -> save image as -> ...
Also, if you want some feedback for your guide before you post it to the general public, feel free to toss me a PM - for reference, I've written a couple guides on here that were received quite well and I love proofreading 
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@Whole: Thanks so much, I ought to be able to get a lot more done now. As for the 10 minute mek, it was that way because I skipped boots and hadn't left the jungle yet 
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On June 14 2013 05:38 Whole wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 01:16 packrat386 wrote:
Maybe not such a simple question, but how do I not be useless as chen? I just played my first game as him, and while I feel I was doing ok going through the jungle (10 minute mek, ended with that + manaboots + drums + aghs + bloodstone) but I feel like I didn't really contribute much in the early game which is where chen is supposed to shine. What should I be doing with which creeps and how can I make an impact that makes it worth it to have chen on your team? You have to gank and push relentlessly. I start out with x1 Tango, x2 Branches, x1 Smoke, Courier & Wards. If someone else is nice enough to get courier or wards, get an earlier Ring of Protection/Sage's Mask (I find it necessary to have some item with Sage's Mask before Mek...or else you're out of mana most of the time). Whenever you get a Satyr or a Wildkin, try to just farm the jungle as fast as possible because they're really good at farming & you can't really gank with them (unless your teammates can secure a kill with only needing a little extra damage). The moment you get a Centaur, Ursa, or Troll creep, pray that your teammates have some basic forms of lane control and they're not feeding creeps to their tower. Smoke (avoiding vision and wards...aka, use it somewhat deep in your jungle because it lasts a while anyway), alert your teammates, get behind the enemy in lane, and gank. Now if the enemy is pushed up at/near your tower (if you can stay smoked in lane), that should be a 100% kill because (aside from Blinks and stuff), even a Centaur will be able to land a stun just from positioning. If they're just a little past the river where you can't do much, but still gankable, you need an ally to set up with a slow or stun. You'll likely want a set up even if you have a Net Creep because they can just simply run away before he is in range. (Now if the enemy has particularly slow move speed & no boots, then you might be able to set up with a Troll) If the enemy is parallel to the river or at his tower, go farm. That's just ganking your safe lane though. If you're offensive jungling, well, the same applies. Only offensive jungle if your hard lane is pretty strong (some strong dual kill lane), and you wouldn't instantly die from the enemy mid and easy lane coming gank you. If you're ganking mid, you're likely going to need some set up unless the enemy is really pushed up. To gank mid, stay smoked just out of vision, ally sets up, and instantly move in and work your magic. If your mid can't set you up, it's probably best to forget about it, unless the enemy is hugging your tower for some reason. Some extra tips: Always buy another smoke after a kill. The movement speed boost is tooooo useful. Even if you're not smoking to make the enemy shit their pants, that movement speed will make ganks easier because if you're ally sets you up, you might be just a little too far behind to catch up (Chen's creeps are really slow after people get boots). It makes ganks simply easier to execute. And 99% of pubs don't buy smoke early game anyway, so it's not like you're fucking up the stock. Don't be afraid to tower dive to squeeze out an extra Test of Faith. Your creeps can tank the tower. You should just need one Ursa, Centaur, or Troll creep for a gank. If you're level 5 and you have more than one, that's great! But if you have a Satyr and one of those ganking creeps, still gank. That's ganking though. How about pushing. Just realize that you push really fast, and that even though you need an ally to set you up for a gank, if an enemy comes to you (to stop your push), you can just Centaur Stun, Net, or Clap them. So if you ganked your safe lane successfully, push it. Now if your farming carry is reasonably good but is not playing someone who can farm the jungle, you might want to leave that tower up. Otherwise, I'd just push it because he can farm the jungle when the lane is deep on their side. Overall, it's best to ask so you won't get flamed for not pushing/pushing the tower too early. If you ganked the mid lane, push it. I don't like leaving mid towers up because of Rosh. Especially if I'm Dire -- Radiant's only good Rosh counter is Mid T1. But if you failed to get the kill, but weakened the enemy, you can push. Understand that, in the early game, you are very strong if you have creeps and get engaged on. When people engage, you land all creep spells and don't underestimate two creeps auto attacking someone at level 5. Now if you see people porting in, you probably wanna back the fuck off because you can assume that they're ready to fight. Another big push opportunity is when mid goes to gank. If mid leaves lane to gank, unless you're sure you can counter gank your safe lane (your creeps won't reach the hard lane of course), punish him by taking his tower. Inform your mid that you're coming to push, and push it. The enemy mid either has to abandon the gank or lose the tower. Pushing your hard lane is tricky business because of the travel time. If you come out a skirmish with just a little health and mana, but your creeps are in reasonable health, you can send yourself to fountain, creeps to hard lane, and then port in to gank/push. But it depends on whose in that lane. If they're not particularly good pushers or set up for a gank (because it'll likely be your second solo on the hard lane), then you might not be able to gank/push it at all. Now you said you got a 10 minute Mek. That's amazing, but you need to realize you need to do something with that. If I get a 10-15 minute Mek, I get my whole team to 5 man down some towers or get a strong 3 man push going to force a reaction (if I have some ricing carry that wouldn't contribute to a 5 man push). If you have a 10 minute Mek, but come out of the jungle at minute 17, then it's not really a 10 minute Mek. Now if the enemy team has just amazing anti push/teamfight to crush your 5 man pushes or if your team just isn't listening to group and push down a tower, then you better just bend over and accept that you won't be doing anything spectacular in that particular game. Did I type too much 0_o edit: Here's an excerpt from another long ass Chen post that I did. Focuses more on late game creeps. + Show Spoiler +On May 14 2013 05:54 hooahah wrote:
also after I got boots, all of my creeps were slow and usually late to the party. Landing a Cent/Ursa stun with how slow they are seems semi-impossible.
I start giving up on MLG creep plays about mid game. I used to try so hard, but I was spending too much attention to micro for no reward. When teamfights start happening, you really want auras. Now, Centaur gives an aura, so he is still a good creep, and if you can chain a stun with it, do it, but don't stress. Mostly, I find myself using the Centaur to stun for a retreat or to stun some idiot who is way too deep. Just don't stress about using the spells too much. Because Ursas don't give an aura, I try to ignore them. So usually, I look for Speed Aura, Armor Aura, Centaur Aura, Alpha Wolves depending on whose the carry (someone who can benefit early), and Ice Ogres for the mid game. And Troll creeps. I don't know what the fuck Valve renamed them to be, but Troll Warlords are the best. They don't give an aura, but DAT NET. My favorite mid game composition is 3 Troll Warlords. My favorite late game composition is 2 Troll Warlords and 1 Alpha Wolf. You can't go wrong. There is no chance to fail with them and they're pretty much just as good as the other CC because you will always hit it. And the best part. Net goes through BKB It can really wreck carries. Melee carries can't attack, ranged carries can't kite. Also, those skeletons are amazing. Two skeletons are nice. But if you ever get 3 Troll creeps. Just try pushing. 3x skeletons are ridiculous. But of course, if you need to play fast paced, you can't be picky, so just get what you can and do your best. It's expected that you won't be able to land stuns and stuff late game. They are in fact, too slow.
Great post, it is almost a guide already!
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On June 14 2013 07:57 Verror wrote:
I've been thinking about (and writing a CM guide) and wondering if there are base item images that I can use instead of uploading each to TL individually.
Also after I'm 90% done I realize there's already a CM guide and I should have done Dazzle first! But that will hopefully happen (assuming I don't get get horrible feedback from the CM guide I'm working on).
Long story short, are there item images I can use (maybe off liquipedia?) or should I upload each individually?
CM could use a new guide with the (small) buff she received.
I play her quite a few times and really like her.
I always start as hard 5th position, buying Courier + Ward + Gauntlet + tango. Depending on who is on my team (if they need mana level 1 or no) I skill aura or slow. Nowadays after the aura buff I usually put 1 point in it till level 7 or so, depending if my team needs more or less mana, and I usually leave it at 3 now, only putting the 4th point after finishing the rest. I usually skill slow over the disable as well, as it deals more damage and has a lot longer range.
For items I rarely finish the bracer first, I usually make tranquils and then I wait and see how much money I have, if I have opportunity to gather assist/tower money and can go directly to blink, I go. If not, I finish my bracers. If I am REALLY struggling to find and keep money, then I make ANOTHER bracer. If I am still dying a lot I go for a drum. I do this because sometimes it is really hard to keep money and not die, so I buy items that are made with smaller parts and are easier to swallow.
Both BKB and Shadow Blade can be useful items for landing her ulti, but I don't find this is nearly as important as the Blink Dagger or drums, you're too squishy either way, you probably die in under a second when focused, with or without BKB/Shadow. If the enemy doesn't focus you, then you can wreck havoc, but otherwise it is really hard.
I will thank any knowledge on this under appreciated hero.
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Lalalaland34504 Posts
On June 14 2013 07:57 Verror wrote:
I've been thinking about (and writing a CM guide) and wondering if there are base item images that I can use instead of uploading each to TL individually.
Also after I'm 90% done I realize there's already a CM guide and I should have done Dazzle first! But that will hopefully happen (assuming I don't get get horrible feedback from the CM guide I'm working on).
Long story short, are there item images I can use (maybe off liquipedia?) or should I upload each individually?
I believe that if the guides are only hosted on TL you are free to hotlink liquipedia images. That's what I did anyway.
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On June 14 2013 12:23 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 07:57 Verror wrote:
I've been thinking about (and writing a CM guide) and wondering if there are base item images that I can use instead of uploading each to TL individually.
Also after I'm 90% done I realize there's already a CM guide and I should have done Dazzle first! But that will hopefully happen (assuming I don't get get horrible feedback from the CM guide I'm working on).
Long story short, are there item images I can use (maybe off liquipedia?) or should I upload each individually? I believe that if the guides are only hosted on TL you are free to hotlink liquipedia images. That's what I did anyway.
Shoulda done that with my sand king guide, now all the images are broken cuz I used dota2wiki instead and they changed their image urls 
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On June 14 2013 05:38 Whole wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 01:16 packrat386 wrote:
Maybe not such a simple question, but how do I not be useless as chen? I just played my first game as him, and while I feel I was doing ok going through the jungle (10 minute mek, ended with that + manaboots + drums + aghs + bloodstone) but I feel like I didn't really contribute much in the early game which is where chen is supposed to shine. What should I be doing with which creeps and how can I make an impact that makes it worth it to have chen on your team? You have to gank and push relentlessly. I start out with x1 Tango, x2 Branches, x1 Smoke, Courier & Wards. If someone else is nice enough to get courier or wards, get an earlier Ring of Protection/Sage's Mask (I find it necessary to have some item with Sage's Mask before Mek...or else you're out of mana most of the time). Whenever you get a Satyr or a Wildkin, try to just farm the jungle as fast as possible because they're really good at farming & you can't really gank with them (unless your teammates can secure a kill with only needing a little extra damage). The moment you get a Centaur, Ursa, or Troll creep, pray that your teammates have some basic forms of lane control and they're not feeding creeps to their tower. Smoke (avoiding vision and wards...aka, use it somewhat deep in your jungle because it lasts a while anyway), alert your teammates, get behind the enemy in lane, and gank. Now if the enemy is pushed up at/near your tower (if you can stay smoked in lane), that should be a 100% kill because (aside from Blinks and stuff), even a Centaur will be able to land a stun just from positioning. If they're just a little past the river where you can't do much, but still gankable, you need an ally to set up with a slow or stun. You'll likely want a set up even if you have a Net Creep because they can just simply run away before he is in range. (Now if the enemy has particularly slow move speed & no boots, then you might be able to set up with a Troll) If the enemy is parallel to the river or at his tower, go farm. That's just ganking your safe lane though. If you're offensive jungling, well, the same applies. Only offensive jungle if your hard lane is pretty strong (some strong dual kill lane), and you wouldn't instantly die from the enemy mid and easy lane coming gank you. If you're ganking mid, you're likely going to need some set up unless the enemy is really pushed up. To gank mid, stay smoked just out of vision, ally sets up, and instantly move in and work your magic. If your mid can't set you up, it's probably best to forget about it, unless the enemy is hugging your tower for some reason. Some extra tips: Always buy another smoke after a kill. The movement speed boost is tooooo useful. Even if you're not smoking to make the enemy shit their pants, that movement speed will make ganks easier because if you're ally sets you up, you might be just a little too far behind to catch up (Chen's creeps are really slow after people get boots). It makes ganks simply easier to execute. And 99% of pubs don't buy smoke early game anyway, so it's not like you're fucking up the stock. Don't be afraid to tower dive to squeeze out an extra Test of Faith. Your creeps can tank the tower. You should just need one Ursa, Centaur, or Troll creep for a gank. If you're level 5 and you have more than one, that's great! But if you have a Satyr and one of those ganking creeps, still gank. That's ganking though. How about pushing. Just realize that you push really fast, and that even though you need an ally to set you up for a gank, if an enemy comes to you (to stop your push), you can just Centaur Stun, Net, or Clap them. So if you ganked your safe lane successfully, push it. Now if your farming carry is reasonably good but is not playing someone who can farm the jungle, you might want to leave that tower up. Otherwise, I'd just push it because he can farm the jungle when the lane is deep on their side. Overall, it's best to ask so you won't get flamed for not pushing/pushing the tower too early. If you ganked the mid lane, push it. I don't like leaving mid towers up because of Rosh. Especially if I'm Dire -- Radiant's only good Rosh counter is Mid T1. But if you failed to get the kill, but weakened the enemy, you can push. Understand that, in the early game, you are very strong if you have creeps and get engaged on. When people engage, you land all creep spells and don't underestimate two creeps auto attacking someone at level 5. Now if you see people porting in, you probably wanna back the fuck off because you can assume that they're ready to fight. Another big push opportunity is when mid goes to gank. If mid leaves lane to gank, unless you're sure you can counter gank your safe lane (your creeps won't reach the hard lane of course), punish him by taking his tower. Inform your mid that you're coming to push, and push it. The enemy mid either has to abandon the gank or lose the tower. Pushing your hard lane is tricky business because of the travel time. If you come out a skirmish with just a little health and mana, but your creeps are in reasonable health, you can send yourself to fountain, creeps to hard lane, and then port in to gank/push. But it depends on whose in that lane. If they're not particularly good pushers or set up for a gank (because it'll likely be your second solo on the hard lane), then you might not be able to gank/push it at all. Now you said you got a 10 minute Mek. That's amazing, but you need to realize you need to do something with that. If I get a 10-15 minute Mek, I get my whole team to 5 man down some towers or get a strong 3 man push going to force a reaction (if I have some ricing carry that wouldn't contribute to a 5 man push). If you have a 10 minute Mek, but come out of the jungle at minute 17, then it's not really a 10 minute Mek. Now if the enemy team has just amazing anti push/teamfight to crush your 5 man pushes or if your team just isn't listening to group and push down a tower, then you better just bend over and accept that you won't be doing anything spectacular in that particular game. Did I type too much 0_o edit: Here's an excerpt from another long ass Chen post that I did. Focuses more on late game creeps. + Show Spoiler +On May 14 2013 05:54 hooahah wrote:
also after I got boots, all of my creeps were slow and usually late to the party. Landing a Cent/Ursa stun with how slow they are seems semi-impossible.
I start giving up on MLG creep plays about mid game. I used to try so hard, but I was spending too much attention to micro for no reward. When teamfights start happening, you really want auras. Now, Centaur gives an aura, so he is still a good creep, and if you can chain a stun with it, do it, but don't stress. Mostly, I find myself using the Centaur to stun for a retreat or to stun some idiot who is way too deep. Just don't stress about using the spells too much. Because Ursas don't give an aura, I try to ignore them. So usually, I look for Speed Aura, Armor Aura, Centaur Aura, Alpha Wolves depending on whose the carry (someone who can benefit early), and Ice Ogres for the mid game. And Troll creeps. I don't know what the fuck Valve renamed them to be, but Troll Warlords are the best. They don't give an aura, but DAT NET. My favorite mid game composition is 3 Troll Warlords. My favorite late game composition is 2 Troll Warlords and 1 Alpha Wolf. You can't go wrong. There is no chance to fail with them and they're pretty much just as good as the other CC because you will always hit it. And the best part. Net goes through BKB It can really wreck carries. Melee carries can't attack, ranged carries can't kite. Also, those skeletons are amazing. Two skeletons are nice. But if you ever get 3 Troll creeps. Just try pushing. 3x skeletons are ridiculous. But of course, if you need to play fast paced, you can't be picky, so just get what you can and do your best. It's expected that you won't be able to land stuns and stuff late game. They are in fact, too slow.
Sick guide, this is the kind of stuff n00bs like me want: less focus on items and perfect compositions, more focus on how you should actually think (that part about how to gank is gold).
You said that satyr or wildkin are good for jungling (contrary to ganking), why is that? I mean the satyr has the regen and the aoe ability, so I can see the benefits from that, but what about the wildkin? Is it just good at clearing camps in general, or do you recommend stacking and using the tornado?
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Lalalaland34504 Posts
Think about the big creeps you get. Centaur, ursa, troll - stuns and slows, all superb for ganking. Wildkin and satyr - nukes, but no disable. Can potentially still gank if your allies have stuns, but are less reliable on their own. Their aoe abilities help farm much easier.
That's basically it.
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On June 14 2013 16:21 Firebolt145 wrote:
Think about the big creeps you get. Centaur, ursa, troll - stuns and slows, all superb for ganking. Wildkin and satyr - nukes, but no disable. Can potentially still gank if your allies have stuns, but are less reliable on their own. Their aoe abilities help farm much easier.
That's basically it.
Yeah, it's more that I never really see a situation where I want to use wildkin tornado to farm, unless camps have been stacked beforehand since it does damage so slowly and can't do anything while it's channeling. Seems to me like it's less that they are good for jungling, more that they suck for ganking (though tornado is obviously OP when pushing, 3x wildkin push ftw). Am I right in assuming that unless I specifically don't WANT to gank, I should always prioritize having ganking creeps?
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What part of your game improved the most from your first year of dota until now?
I'm stagnating right now and I'm just looking for anything that may help 
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The Wildkin is good for farming because it is durable, has the highest attack damage, and matches other large camp attack speeds. You shouldn't use the tornado to farm unless the Wildkin is about to die (you want to tank a few hits until the next good creep is available -- example: have Chen tank the last few hits of an Ogre Camp early game), or if you're pushing a lane and don't want to endanger your Wildkin...or if you're fighting that one easy camp that spawns 5 kobolds. The durability is relevant because converting creeps doesn't give you gold or experience, so the less creeps you need to convert, the more gold is available. I don't reccommend stacking and tornado'ing because you can still farm the jungle extremely fast with a Wildkin, and if you're stacking and watching a Wildkin tornado a stack, you lose all of your ganking potential.
I'd like to dedicate this post to Yango because this is exactly what he said many pages ago, and then I realized how fast not using Tornado on the Wildkin is the next Chen game I played.
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Does anyone know if Troll Warlord Ulti effects Brewmaster in Ulti form?
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On June 14 2013 16:41 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 16:21 Firebolt145 wrote:
Think about the big creeps you get. Centaur, ursa, troll - stuns and slows, all superb for ganking. Wildkin and satyr - nukes, but no disable. Can potentially still gank if your allies have stuns, but are less reliable on their own. Their aoe abilities help farm much easier.
That's basically it. Seems to me like it's less that they are good for jungling, more that they suck for ganking (though tornado is obviously OP when pushing, 3x wildkin push ftw). Am I right in assuming that unless I specifically don't WANT to gank, I should always prioritize having ganking creeps?
Well, the Wildkin is actually really good for jungle farming. It's just that they're so limited because that's all they can do. At least a Satyr can throw his nuke at least twice in a gank while landing a Tornado is hard. As for your second question, more or less, yes. Before level 7 that is (@ level 7, Satyrs and Wildkins are good for pushing). Pre-level 3, you should just use the first good creep to convert until it dies, but after level 3 (make sure to go Convert-> Nuke -> Nuke->Convert->Convert up to level 5), prioritize ganking unless you just can't for whatever reason...or if you're in a stack that wants to hit some 10 to 15 minute all-in push where you really want to farm a Mek. You can certainly gank at level 1 and 2...hell, that's why you start with smoke, but don't acquire a Wildkin/Satyr and then kill it off in the next camp because you see a Centaur. Also, it is key to not sit and wait for a gank to happen. It wastes crucial time. You need to smoke, tell your allies, and ping furiously. (Of course, don't go if your allies are at 100 hp each and out of mana.) I used to have a bad habit of getting a ganking creep, sitting out of vision for about a minute just so they can push up "just a little more"...then I would be discovered or some shit...and then I realized why pro Chens get Smoke of Deceit.
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If you are level 5 (aka can have 2 creeps), or you don't mind losing out on some farming time (you could spend that time warding and/or stacking, so not a complete waste), then you can send the wildkin to harass with tornado. Early game, its a quite powerful harassment tool. Mid lanes have been won from less.
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If I'm power leveling enchantress, I like to possess the extremely gold+exp/hp inefficient creeps in addition to fast farming creeps: level 2 centaurs, level 1 wildkin (less so), and of course, ogres. 850 hp for a level 2 creep, wtf.
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On June 14 2013 17:09 LAN-f34r wrote:
If you are level 5 (aka can have 2 creeps), or you don't mind losing out on some farming time (you could spend that time warding and/or stacking, so not a complete waste), then you can send the wildkin to harass with tornado. Early game, its a quite powerful harassment tool. Mid lanes have been won from less.
If you do that, the Harpy creeps are also good. :> 900 range, 4 second cooldown, 140 damage nuke that you can use about 20 times before mana depletes. Bit more micro, but if you're just sitting on one creep to jungle, chances are you're not trying that hard to gank & have more time to micro it anyway. Admittedly, I never did the Tornado mid thing before. I kind of want to try it versus someone squishy and immobile like Sniper. And I just looked it up. Didn't know it did damage from so far (15 DPS from 600 radius!), dayum. Learn something new every day with Chen & his creeps.
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You have two chances to get a 1 out of 5 wildkin, you only have 1 chance to get a 1 out of 6 harpy. And if you can clear it, you're more likely to clear the hard camp than the easy.
And of course if you don't get the wildkin, the other hard camps units are still useful. Whereas the only other semi-decent small camp unit is the troll priest.
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is SingSing playing with Kaipi now ?????
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EPT
