EPTSimple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 474
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aintz
Canada5624 Posts
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Darkren
Canada1841 Posts
On June 09 2013 04:13 aintz wrote: in pub dual lanes its better to get stout 2x tango (or 1 tango 1 pot) and a slipper of agi, finish poormans at the sideshop. should have enough regen to stay in lane long enough. Depends on the lane and the heros, there is no perfect answer ur initial build should vary everygame depending on your lane setup and the team comp, dont be afraid to experiment and try new things out. As a general rule if ur playing a dual lane and ur melee u should go for a stout shield, if ur a melee agi hero upgrading to a poor man is a valuable decision, u could also consider magic wand | ||
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DavoS
United States4605 Posts
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Ryhzuo
New Zealand198 Posts
On June 09 2013 12:17 DavoS wrote: When should a team break down the laning phase? When it is no longer advantageous for you team to continue to lane. It will depend on specific team composition, but generally speaking if both teams have around the same carry potential, the team that is winning the laning phase wants to drag it out as long as possible to accumulate gold and exp advantage, and the team that is losing the laning phase wants to move on as soon as they are able to minimize their deficit and hopefully come back in the midgame. There are also a number of specific heros that dictate when the laning phase should end once they hit a certain level of progression. For example, if a nyx assassin hits level 6 relevatively early, if a batrider acquires his blink dagger, if a nature's prophet farms his fast mek, or if a lycan comes out of the jungle with a vlads rush and starts pushing towers. Things that require a response from either team, to either group up as 3-4 so they don't get picked off, or to defend and counterpush so you don't lose all your towers. When you are forcing, or forced to do this, it's a good time to break down the laning phase. Finally is when your team has inferior carry potential, such as any pushing lineup vs an antimage. In such cases you want to stop laning and push as hard and as fast as possible to minimize the amount of farm your enemy's carry can get. | ||
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Whole
United States6046 Posts
I go Aquilia -> Drums -> BKB (with Brown Boots), but it seems that I get my damage items too late and then I fall off. Well I told them that the regen was terrible unless you're going late game and using W to farm. They kind of agreed, or gave up because I was being stubborn. But we kind of mutually agreed that this build delays my damage a little too much (not that Linken's wouldn't, because it's roughly 1k gold less for less stuff)...is there a way to squeeze in more damage before BKB? I'm thinking Phase Boots before BKB because the damage on it is pretty nice regardless of the active. Any other ideas? Do I even need to? They pointed out that I lack damage, but I think they were just saying that. Also, my intial weaver build is 2x Slippers, 1 Tango, 1 Salve, 2x Branches. Should I swap a Slipper for Gauntlet to optimize it for build progression? | ||
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sqrt
1210 Posts
On June 09 2013 16:52 Whole wrote: Also, my intial weaver build is 2x Slippers, 1 Tango, 1 Salve, 2x Branches. Should I swap a Slipper for Gauntlet to optimize it for build progression? Now, I'm no pro, and honestly maybe it'll be better if someone can back me up on this, but you may just ditch drums for a wraithband or a Poor Man's Shield. | ||
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Xxazn4lyfe51xX
United States976 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
When you come to the conclusion that you didn't have your damage early enough, then you need to ask: did I get the right items and just not get them fast enough? Or did I get the wrong items? This is an important thing to distinguish. Note that if you didn't get items fast enough, it's not necessarily just because you didn't farm enough. It could be you lost important early game fights, you didn't get enough kills/towers, you farmed inefficiently, etc. If you got the wrong items, you need to think to yourself--what was the right item choice in this game, why, and what should indicate to me what I should have gotten. Regarding the specifics: - Drums are fine on Weaver for certain games. They're not an item for every game. They're a middle-of-the-road item for when you NEED an item at that point to fight, and can't save for a bigger, more important item timing. In particular, if you can win those fights with an Ogre Axe saving toward BKB, then you don't need the Drums. - Treads and Tranquils are the two most common Boots choices for Weaver. You almost always buy them before your first major item. Both give cost-effective combat stats and Shukuchi does not at all erase the need for upgraded Boots. - Starting items vary based on lane. Typically you don't need double Slippers. Sidelane Weaver should start with a Ring of Protection and no Slippers usually because you will be buying Basi/Aquila and Slippers can be bought from the side shop while Ring of Protection needs to be bought from base. Mid lane your base damage is high enough that the second set of Slippers is really just delaying your Bottle. | ||
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Doomblaze
United States1292 Posts
High level teams know this and they will force the weaver to get early game items and fight with her 400 hp, at which point it comes down to execution. In a pub game its not uncommon to be able to farm an early radiance or linkens and be left relatively alone, and if you can do it without losing the game for your team then more power to you. If you have 2k gold and you're ricing and your team dies 0-4 and loses a tower, then it may be time to get drums, urn and the swarm so you can help them early. Items builds aren't cut in stone. | ||
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LAN-f34r
New Zealand2099 Posts
When you have the funds, deso is generally my first choice of an item (yes its an orb, but it fires on the first attack of your orb in dota 2 so it almost completely stacks). This allows you to take towers fairly quickly while split pushing, which you are fairly proficient at (good escape if they try to come kill you, and bugs can delay creepwaves if they arent going to be needed in a fight soon). If they have lots of disables/nukes and you need to be teamfighting more, then BKB may be more appropriate. By the way, your bugs are quite useful in midgame fights if you use them right. Hitting multiple people when the fight breaks out is quite a bit of -armour and a decent amount of damage if the fight goes on long enough and the beetles are maxed. Its a more subtle effect though, so its often overlooked. But yes, treads/tranquils are both OP, and linkens isn't a great choice (at least in today's meta). Edit: oh yea, radi. If you go on a farming/killing spree and see that you have 3800 gold 12 mins into the game, its a good choice. Otherwise, you are probably better off building into cheaper items. | ||
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Surprise.820
United Kingdom1276 Posts
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TheSubtleArt
Canada2527 Posts
On June 09 2013 18:55 LAN-f34r wrote: Imo, at least in pubs, drums is almost never the right choice. Nobody gets medallion, and almost no one gets urn. Both are fair choices for items you can piece together for early game fighting, and both have unique synergy with weaver, while the impact of drums on weaver is somewhat reduced. Often a casual ogre axe or a casual vit booster is needed to make up for your squishiness though. When you have the funds, deso is generally my first choice of an item (yes its an orb, but it fires on the first attack of your orb in dota 2 so it almost completely stacks). This allows you to take towers fairly quickly while split pushing, which you are fairly proficient at (good escape if they try to come kill you, and bugs can delay creepwaves if they arent going to be needed in a fight soon). If they have lots of disables/nukes and you need to be teamfighting more, then BKB may be more appropriate. By the way, your bugs are quite useful in midgame fights if you use them right. Hitting multiple people when the fight breaks out is quite a bit of -armour and a decent amount of damage if the fight goes on long enough and the beetles are maxed. Its a more subtle effect though, so its often overlooked. But yes, treads/tranquils are both OP, and linkens isn't a great choice (at least in today's meta). Edit: oh yea, radi. If you go on a farming/killing spree and see that you have 3800 gold 12 mins into the game, its a good choice. Otherwise, you are probably better off building into cheaper items. I find it the opposite. Pubs you generally have less farm to work with because of dual lanes vs dual lanes, and everyone fights way earlier. I almost always build drums now unless I have a really good lane and can afford to go into bigger items quicker. | ||
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aintz
Canada5624 Posts
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
deso is cheap but radi/mkb scale better lategame. bkb if they have a ton of disables obviously other early game choices include bottle, urn, medallion, vit booster, drums bottle if you're mid or if you need regen and someone else has urn. medallion if you want to early rosh. it's decent damage otherwise but imo not really worth it. vit booster if you need to hp. drums if you have no money and you're constantly teamfighting early game you can tranq/rob swap (dissemble rob for tranq and dissemble tranq for rob) | ||
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Whole
United States6046 Posts
I suppose I liked Drums so much on Weaver is because I used to only play support, so I suppose I overvalued early game items. I guess I don't understand the significance of how a dead-end item can gimp you later on because I did notice a trend where I would just not have damage on my Weaver because of the build I was doing...even when I'd have free farm in a lane, I'd still go Drums X_X. | ||
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packrat386
United States5077 Posts
On June 10 2013 01:21 TheSubtleArt wrote: I find it the opposite. Pubs you generally have less farm to work with because of dual lanes vs dual lanes, and everyone fights way earlier. I almost always build drums now unless I have a really good lane and can afford to go into bigger items quicker. I think he might mean that supports get more farm. At least at my level of play (mostly dual lanes etc) a lot of support players contest for LHs and stuff so they ought to have the farm for items like medallion and urn. | ||
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Daozzt
United States1263 Posts
On June 10 2013 04:22 Whole wrote: Thanks. So Drums is really an item to get if you're going really aggressive or need to defend against early aggression. Otherwise I can usually just get Ogre Club to later transition into BKB (unless it's a rare game that I don't need BKB, then go something like Vit Booster) and then upgrading to Treads or Tranquils depending on if I need more HP or more Damage in rights. Then the choice of BKB or Deso (or MKB depending on my farm/teammates/evasion/ect.) will depend on whether I can use that early BKB to not instantly die. I suppose I liked Drums so much on Weaver is because I used to only play support, so I suppose I overvalued early game items. I guess I don't understand the significance of how a dead-end item can gimp you later on because I did notice a trend where I would just not have damage on my Weaver because of the build I was doing...even when I'd have free farm in a lane, I'd still go Drums X_X. No, please get treads as your first item after wand aquila. We don't need more carries going 30 minutes into the game with brown boots thinking its a good idea. Unless you are rushing bfury always upgrade boots as your first item as a carry. | ||
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LAN-f34r
New Zealand2099 Posts
On June 10 2013 01:21 TheSubtleArt wrote: I find it the opposite. Pubs you generally have less farm to work with because of dual lanes vs dual lanes, and everyone fights way earlier. I almost always build drums now unless I have a really good lane and can afford to go into bigger items quicker. I mean for weaver. Drums in general are a fairly good choice because they have quite good greedy stats, however weaver doesn't take advantage of all of them. Also, while fighting happens earlier in pubs, the fighting is often broken up and is fairly rarely a 5v5 teamfight until quite a bit later. Or maybe that's just because I split push a lot. | ||
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roigon
28 Posts
At my lvl of play it's still all 2-1-2 lanes, and I mostly play support lich/lina/windrunner. I generally just try to get in hits when I can, use a cheap skill when I have enough mana and they are low enough health that it might get them to sit under the tower or walk home. But I find it difficult to keep in range to harass while also keeping my distance from the creeps and staying on the right side of the creeps. | ||
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njt7
Sweden769 Posts
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