[Hero] Clockwerk

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MrHoon

10183 Posts

February 22 2013 10:13 GMT

Clockwerk

Rattletrap descends from the same far-flung kindred as Sniper and Tinker, and like many of the Keen Folk, has offset his diminutive stature through the application of gadgetry and wit. The son of the son of a clockmaker, Rattletrap was many years apprenticed to that trade before war rode down from the mountains and swept the plains villages free of such innocent vocations. "Your new trade is battle," his dying father told him as the village of their ancestors lay in charred and smoking ruins.

It is a poor tradesman who blames his tools, and Rattletrap was never one to make excuses. After burying his father among the ruins of their village, he set about to transform himself into the greatest tool of warfare that any world had ever seen. He vowed to never again be caught unprepared, instead using his talents to assemble a suit of powered Clockwerk armor to make the knights of other lands look like tin cans by comparison. Now Rattletrap is alive with devices. He is a small but deadly warrior whose skills at ambush and destruction have risen to near-automated levels of efficiency. An artisan of death, his mechanizations make short work of the unwary, heralding a new dawn in this age of warfare. What time is it? It's Clockwerk time!

For abilities, stats, and other information, visit this hero's Liquipedia page here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Clockwerk

+ Show Spoiler [Guide by MrHoon!] +

Rattletrap, the Goblin Clockwerk

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The guide that will hopefully stop Clockwerks in pubs from getting weird ass and terrible items!

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Rattletrap or better known as The ~~Goblin~~ Keen Clockwerk is a beloved and hated hero in the world of dota! With the concept of the 'Reverse Pudge' (or just batman) the clockwerk's unique skill set allows him to be a very fun mid hero or a very underrated solo Offlaner.

The role of Clockwerk is diverse within the game but mostly he fufills the role of a Ganker and Initiator/Counter Initiator. However his greatest strength is to lockout a single enemy hero either killing the enemy hero or buying your teammates enough time with Power Cogs to win the fight. So lets dive right in to the Skillsets of Clockwerk!

Battery Assault

Being of the most annoying skills in the game Battery Assault doesn't only boast a very high damage against a solo target but the best part about it is the 0.2 second ministun it does every 0.7 seconds. With only a 0.5 second downtime, any hero with a cast point greater than 0.5 cannot cast anything for 10.5 seconds if they are hit by every single Battery Assault!

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Power Cogs

The great and terrible power cogs! Power Cogs is an amazing ability which allows you to
A) Escape enemies
B) Lock in enemies
C) Burn alot of mana if used offensively
With the recent buff to cogs increasing it's duration by 2 seconds at all levels and forcing force staff users to take the damage and manaburn first, Power Cogs is a devastating skill and once again one of the most annoying abilities. At level 1 the Power Cogs locks in an enemy for 5 seconds! During the early laning stage if the enemy support gets way too cocky trying to kick you out of the lane, you have an ability to lock the enemy in a 5 second mano el mano fight.
Cogs are not only a defensive ability, but a great offensive ability with the manaburn incredibly powerful if you can use it properly. During the early stages of the game where carries run around with 200-300 mana, burning even 80 mana is a huge hit for them!

However the cogs is not all with it's downsides. In Pubs cogs actually do your team more harm than good if you are relying on a melee carry. Believe it or not, Flamewheel and Kipsate banned me from playing clockwerk the first time I ever played this hero due to the fact I cogged them in or cogged my enemy when it was clearly not neccesary.

HUGE TIP: When you cog in an enemy and you feel like your battery assault and rocket isn't enough damage, break one cog open and force your opponent to exit. When enemies exit the cogs, they still get hit by the manaburn. That's extra damage!

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Rocket Flare

The power of Rocket Flare doesn't come from it's low to moderate damage but mostly it's global pressence and the ridiculous AOE. With some luck you can even find out what all 3 lanes will be using rockets instantly. A level 1 rocket has only a damage of 80 magical (60 damage to heroes) but it allows you to have a gareenteed last hitting spell that only costs 50 mana. This may not seem much considering there are many other long ranged spell such as Powershot and Shockwave which scales much better later on but Rocket Flare's ridiculous 575 radius the spell to not miss during the laning stages (unless you misclick really hard).

This ability gives the ability to last hit and harass enemies with ease, something a new windrunner would not be able to do. And during the laning stages those damages add up!

However in some cases, having Rocket Flare at level 2 while maxing other skills is a better investment.

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Hookshot

The great ultimate spell that allows Clockwerk to resemble Batman more than any other heroes, Hookshot is an ability which you could Initiate, Chase and even escape! With the buff to hookshot where the old aganim's part of Hooking to allies was added the usefulness of Clockwerk multiplied and truly turned into a versatile hero. One unmentioned part of the Hookshot that nobody seems to mention is it's ability to go through BKB and any other form of spell immunity. 1.0/1.5/2.0 doesn't sound that much, but at times those precious seconds can buy your team enough time.

"SO HOON WHAT BOOTS DO I BUY"

Normal Boots
Sometimes you don't need upgraded boots. Not saying that Upgrading Boots is overrated, but sometimes your lane is just so shit you can't afford to go arcanes or you'll end up getting a 30 minute Mek. During these unfortunate times you must just stick with Brown Boots and head towards the larger items such as Mek and etc.

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Arcane Boots
For a Strength hero whom depends on roaming, pushing, spamming and desperately needing a larger manapool, Arcane Boots are obviously the best Choice for Clockwerk. While some like the idea of Phase boots or even treads, the burst mana and larger manapool the Arcane Boots give a the player and his team continuous pushing power and more!

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Tranquil Boots
If Clockwerk had a ridiculous INT gain or had a large base mana, Tranquils will unarguably be the best Boots for Clockwerk (then again, who doesn't benefit from Tranquils). The Boots have it all; Great Movement Speed, Passive HP Regen, Active HP Regen and to top it all off Armor! All these effects benefit the Clockwerk in many ways.

If you are confident that your mana management is good enough, investing in Tranquils can do wonders for you. You can also disassemble this later to make a vlads!

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Phase Boots
On paper, these boots look amazing on the clockwerk (I have never met a person who disliked phase boots). However the reason why I don't recommend Phase on clockwerk is not because it's a bad choice, but its because Tranquils and Arcanes benefit the clockwerk so much more than phase. Phase isn't bad if you're midlaning as a clockwerk but the increased manapool and the hp regen just seem too much to pass up.

Note: Listen guys, I love phase just like any other but please don't get this on the offlane. I know the amount that phase gives you is great but do you really need that +24 damage on your wrench? Do yourself a favor and get Arcanes for you and your team, or get a Tranqs for lane stability.

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Power Treads
Please don't. If you need mana, get Arcane. If you really need HP, get a casual Vit Booster. If you need armor get Tranquils.

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Boots of Travel
When taken early it is the Ultimate Money saver. However you're better off making this item into a luxury thing.

"SO HOON WHAT ITEM SHOULD I BUY FIRST"

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The Item build which MANY MANY PEOPLE fail at as a Clockwerk is one of the hardest part of this hero. Whenever I see a pub Clockwerk at work the most common items I see are Phase + Vanguard/Blademail. Look, I'm not saying Vanguard sucks and nobody should ever get it, but there are better alternatives for a clockwerk.

The thing about Clockwerk is that he is a very MANLY hero. But unfortunately, Clockwerk needs items to be able to even more Manly instead of jumping in and dying in 2 seconds. Since you're also on Offlane Income, chances are you won't have enough money to get all the items. Unlike an Offlane Darkseer, you don't have the luxury of flash farming jungles and lanes (trust me rockets are NOT a flash farming ability). You have to work for it like a MAN, so choosing your first item as a clockwerk will decide what you will do.

I will list you guys some items that benefit clock so much early/mid game.

[ Mekansm ]
95 HP
65 MP
5.71 ARMOR
4 HP/s
=====Active
+250 Healing
+2 Armor
=====750 AOE

Hands down the best first 'big' item for the clockwerk. 5 to all stats, 5 Armor, 4HPs, and an active AOE healing to top it all off, who wouldn't want it? As a melee hero who does his job hooking into the enemy, increasing your (and your team's) survivability in anyway possible is always a great deal. Not to mention Mek is very easy to get as an offlaner and you need one in your team anyways.

Whenever I see a clockwerk (ally or enemy) who don't go for a Mek (unless the team already has one) makes me very sad. Compared to any other item out there around the same cost Mek is undoubtably the winner.

Try to aim for a 13-20 Minute Mek. Sometimes you will get delayed, but this is the right time for any offlaner that isnt Dark Seer.

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"BUT HOON, CHEN / ENIGMA / NATURE'S PROPHET ALREADY MADE A MEK"
----------------------------

Now comes the tricky part. Although Mek is undoubtly the best first item hands down, there are times where you just can't get the mek. Now most players at the point just say "OH WELL TIME TO GET A PIPE", but making a pipe costs alot and only gives you a shitload of regen. Not saying regen is bad or anything, but a Clockwerk needs Armor and HP to be effective during the midgame. Pipe is great and all but it doesn't fufill Clockwerk's true purpose in fights. You need to survive fights to earn the EXP and Gold needed.

Mek is so good on Clockwerk because it's such a cost effective and easy item for him that also helps the team. Now unfortunately a Pipe won't cover the same things a Mek can cover, so you will have to optimize to your situation.

In these cases, it's sometimes good to carry the following items
A Casual Vit Booster, A Casual Point Booster, A Casual Platemail

These items are one of the most cost effective non-upgraded items in the game. Infact, a casual Vit Booster is so popular these days that people opt a casual vit booster over a fully upgraded vanguard! 250HP is no joke and you should always consider this item. Also when worst comes to worst, you can always upgrade this to a vanguard, or even a Heart! But you won't ever get a heart since you're clockwerk!

A casual Point Booster is my personal favorite as it gives 200hp AND 150 Mana. Now some of you might say "WOW! A Casual Point Booster is far superior than a Casual Vit Booster! This is not true. While the 150 Mana does seem tantalizing, it really isn't a big upgrade for Clock who will have enough mana to do everything he wants once he has his arcanes. 50 HP less for 100 gold more? 50 might seem low but it really isn't! Just because a Point Booster can progress you to an Aghanims doesn't mean it's the best thing ever!

Now the Casual Platemail. For 1400 Gold, you can get 10 Armor. Let me repeat, 10 Fucking Armor. Don't even try to whip out your calculator because let me tell you, 10 fucking armor is a shitload more than what clockwerk normally has. Also it can become an Assault Cuirass or hell, even a Shiva's Guard my favorite Clock item.

These three incomplete item can make or break teamfights for the Clockwerk. If I ever had to choose which one to get first, I would choose a Platemail over a Vit and Point, but sometimes armor isn't useful as raw hp. Choose wisely folks as how your game progresses depends on what you decided to invest first.

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"OKAY HOON I FINISHED MY FIRST BIG ITEM, WHAT NOW?"
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Now what most people do after this is scream "GO AGHANIMS GOGO" but that isn't the best choice at times. Aghanims is great guys, but there are many other alternatives a Clockwerk can get. Don't let the 12 second Ultimate fool you!

Click on the spoiler for the list of items you will need!
+ Show Spoiler [CLICK ME PLEASE] +

Blade Mail
130 MP
22 DMG
+5 ARMOR
=====Active
Reflects all damage for 4.5 Seconds
=====Self Target

I have mixed feelings with this item, but my bias aside Blademail is a great item to keep as a clockwerk. While the Blade Mail offers no great amount of passive survivability it offers an active semi survivability skill that makes opponents think twice before slapping you. The ability to reflect all source of damage for 4.5 seconds which sounds amazing on paper but at times the following might happen

1) You pop Blade Mail and everyone ignores you then kills you 4.5 seconds later
2) 5 enemies pound on you so unless the enemy crits you for an obscene amount of damage, very small amounts of damage will be reflected.
3) Your HP is so low that your blademail doesn't reflect enough damage (or any).
4) They BKB and start slapping the shit out of you.

Hood of Defiance / Pipe of Insight
30% Magic Resistance
8 HP/s

Hood/Pipe is an amazing item on itself and if your HP is high enough can provide more survivability than most other items lategame. Hood and Pipe lategame gives an obscene amount of Effective HP to your hero as it scales very well for heroes with High HP pools such as the Clockwerk. Not to mention the Pipe helps you push into enemy bases and towers very easily. The only downside to the Pipe is that it doesn't give your Clockwerk the stats and armor. Still a great item!

Vanguard
250 HP
6 HP/s
60% Chance to Block 40 Damage

I strongly dislike Vanguard as an item, but to say Vanguard is a bad item is not true. Yeah it's a bit expensive considering it scales terribly as time goes by and it only provides 2 Stats which can be substituted with another better item (aka Mekansm), however it isn't that terrible. The thing about Vanguards is that if you can manage to get this item really really early (like under 15 minutes at most) your Clockwerk will be amazingly effective for tower diving hooks even with late support from your allies. A vanguard should never be your first choice item, but more of a situational item.

Also back to the whole Vit Booster section. Remember when I said if you can't get the Mek, you should atleast get a Vit Booster? If your team is doing badly and the next teamfight will decide the game and you can't afford a Vit Booster + Platemail but you can afford a Vanguard, get a Vanguard.

Force Staff
10 Int
3 HP/s
=====Active
Pushes any target 600 units in the direction they are facing.
=====Any Target

You think you're a windrunner now? Jokes aside, decent item on Clockwerk if the enemy lineup can dive you even with cogs up. You can save a friend or more importantly your own life.

Vladmir's Offering
2 HP/s
=====Aura
Lifesteal: 16%
Bonus Damage: 15%
Bonus Armor: 5
Bonus Mana Regeneration: 0.8
=====900 AOE

A Vladmir's won't offer raw survivability (pls no lifesteal argument), but even if your team is full of ranged heroes, 5 Armor and 15% Bonus Damage is no joke. I usually try getting a Vladmir's as a 3rd big item on my Clockwerk mainly because of how much it gives your team. If you have a melee carry, your team will love you!

Ghost Sceptor
+7 to All Stats
=====Active
Enter ghost form, unable to attack or be attacked, but take 40% extra damage from spells
=====Self Target

A very situational item but a great situational item nonetheless! While it can't upgrade to anything worthwhile, it can save you in a teamfight against heavy physical hitters.

Heaven's Halberd
15% Chance to Maim
+20 Strength
+25 Damage
+25% Evasion
=====Active
Disarms the target for 4.5 seconds. Lasts 3 on melee targets.
=====Enemy Target

The pinnacle of "Situational Item". Often called the "Ghetto's Halberd", Heaven's Halberd is one of those items that isn't bad at all, but at the same time something you don't want to Rush first. While the 20 Strength and 25% Evasion is huge the 25 damage is unfortunately wasted on clock. But the Disarm is amazingly useful (unless your opponent BKB's then you're kinda fucked). Heaven's Halberd is a really good item but is usually bought when your team is a bit behind and you need something quick to turn fights around.

Shiva's Guard
+30 Intelligence
+15 Armor
Freezing Aura (-30% Attack Speed in 1000 AOE)
=====Active
200 Magical damage AOE and 40% Movement slow for 4 Seconds.
=====719 AOE

Hands down my favorite Clockwerk item (and favorite item ingame)! This item literally has everything a clockwerk dearly wants; armor and a large ass +int. To top it off, it slows down Attack speed in a huge radius AND has a very scary active skill that deals a very small damage, but slows enemies for 4 seconds. Unless you're super far ahead making this first is probably not wise as it requires a crapload of money, but if you can somehow manage to get a Shiva after your first item, you will become unstoppable during teamfights and honestly your team will win most teamfights.

Aghanim's Scepter
+10 Strength
+10 Agility
+10 Intelligence
+200 HP
+150 Mana
=====Passive
Upgrades Hookshot, grants Hookshot a 12 second cooldown.
=====719 AOE

Now listen, I know all of you see the Aghanim upgrade for Clockwerk and think "WOW HOLY FUCK THAT HAS TO BE MY FIRST ITEM" but in reality, this is not true. With the recent buff the Clockwerk which allows him to hook to allies without the Aghanim Upgrade, the importance of this item fell down greatly. I don't mean never get this item, hell this is an amazing upgrade but you have to ask yourself this.

Is a 12 Second Hookshot worth
* HP Regen
* Armor
* Utility Item

Unless you can get the sickest fucking hooks every 12 seconds, the answer is no. This is your luxury item, don't make it your main go to item. However one thing to note is that Hook stun goes through BKB, so at times an Aghanims isn't a bad choice against Enigma.

"COOL SO HOW DO I SKILL THIS WEIRD ROBIT"

For the first 4 levels of an offlane clock your skillset will be the same as most.

[1] Cogs / Rocket
[2] Cogs / Rocket
[3] Rocket / Battery Assault
[4] Rocket / Battery Assault

By level 4, your skills will be 1/1/2. After level 4 is when it will start becoming a bit different. If you are against a trilane consistently, it is better to max out rockets first as getting battery won't do SHIT for you. However, if it is a 1v1 situation, leave rockets at 2 just enough to last hit easily, and start maxing out Battery Assault.

[5] Rocket / Battery Assault
[6] Hookshot
[7] Rocket / Battery Assault

Once you hit level 7 with maxed Rockets, you can harass trilane supports away forcing them to take alot of regen. Don't underestimate 200(150 with resistance) Magical Damage!
Now if you took the Battery Assault Route in a 1v1 lane, you are the most terrifying motherfucker alive if you two are put in a 1v1 situation. A level 4 Battery Assault does 1125 damage over 10.5 seconds if all procs land on the target. Thats fucking scary bro and usually it means the guy stuck in cogs with you is going to die.

Notice: Level 1 Hookshot sucks. The spell itself doesn't suck, but 2000 Range is alot smaller than you think. Even though sight range is 1800 at daytime, chances are you will be aiming your hookshots under 2000 so most people will see you getting prepared for a hookshot. Try getting to level 11 as fast as possible as the extra 500 range is a HUGE upgrade.

[8] Battery Assault / Rocket
[9] Battery Assault / Rocket
[10] Battery Assault / Rocket
[11] Hookshot

This is when clockwerk becomes truly a scary ass hero. By the level 11 timing, Clockwerk has his Mek and is halfway/almost done with his 2nd item depending on what you took. With maxed Battery Assault and Rocket anybody the clock hooks is dead.

[12] Cogs
[13] Cogs
[14] Cogs
[15] Stats
[16] Hookshot
[17-25] Stats

And now the last parts of the skilling is pretty standard.

"SO WHAT HAPPENS NOW?"

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Your Starting items as an Offlane Clockwerk will be

Stoutshield, Tango, Salve and Iron Branches. If you can get a ward from a friend, get it as soon as possible as 1 ward can save your offlane so much.

If you took Cogs first and want to do the cute little cog in creeps trick, make sure you don't fuck it up. Remember, you have to get the ranged creep to go first still, that way the wave pull towards your tower.

The next item you should get are Boots, then a Bottle. Now some people may have issues with an offlane with Bottle, but Clockwerk doesn't have the option to just stack sobi masks due to his poor int. A Bottle will also solve alot of his regen problems both HP and MP. You will be hogging the crow as offlaners mostly just bottle crow spam. Try aiming for a 4-5 Minute Boots and Bottle at most! Any more delays will pave a very dark road for you. If you are against a trilane, chances are this will be an unbelievably difficult goal for you. Keep practicing those rocket last hits!

Also the EXP range is 1200, so make sure when you rocket things, you atleast get the exp. Gold is great, but levels are just as important on clockwerk!

Now you will want to try getting arcane boots 8-10 minutes in. If it's 12 minutes in and you're still short for Arcanes it's time to move on. Arcanes is great but the Mek is more important. Remember, mana is great but in later teamfights if you can survive Gold will come. Don't get too attached to a larger manapool despite it being really nice!

Now when you hit 6, you should try attempting a gank on mid OR get a TP ready to countergank any other lane. Unfortunately if you don't have arcanes and you tp with a low manapool you are fucking useless and you shouldn't of TP'd to begin with. If the gank fails, don't stick around mid and head back to your suicide lane as soon as possible to get your lost EXP back. Race towards your Mek and try getting it done between 15-20 at the latest!

Once your Clockwerk has both Arcanes and Mek, get a magic wand as clock will get 15 charges relatively quickly due to how his hero works. Now after your Mek, your goal in every team fight is be annoying, survive and be manly. Learn when to use cogs and which hero you should hook into.

If you are dying in teamfights, get the Platemail/Vit Booster/Point Booster. You need to get to lvl 16 as soon as possible and dying won't help at all. Unlike a Windrunner, a Clockwerk doesn't scale that well so you need all the levels and gold you can get.

Hoon, I had a terrible start, I fed like 5 times and my items are shit. I can't hook in or I die in 3 seconds, what do I do?
In times like this, you can't just dive in enemies expecting to do anything useful. Hook or not, surviving is what helps you and your team more than anything. At times like this use your cogs to create space and tell your teammates to fight around cogs. Save hook for later or to save yourself! Don't be afraid to buy bracers!

to be continued...

"CONCLUSION"

In a meta where facerush and diving is king, Clockwerk proved to be the biggest bonerkill and play maker of this current meta. While he is a much weaker offlaner compared to the Windrunner, Batrider, Magnus and Dark Seer, Clockwerk proved he can survive and fufill his job. Clockwerk was and will be my favorite hero of all time and I'm glad everyone is enjoying him as much as I am. Hopefully my guide will help people and stop them from buying questionable items! All hail Rattletrap, the greatest Battle Robit of all~

Special Thanks To

TheYango for helping me with this guide (super alot!)
Flamewheel for dealing with my shitty clockwerk for the first 10-20 games
Lovedrop for being my #1 clockwerk fan.

Liquid`Bulba for getting actual items on Clockwerk and being a Hookshotmlgpro420noscope

flamewheel

FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts

February 22 2013 10:14 GMT

This dude totally called Clockwerk hitting the scene. Read this guide!

Lovedrop

2629 Posts

February 22 2013 10:38 GMT

On February 22 2013 19:13 MrHoon wrote:
Lovedrop for being my #1 clockwerk fan.

well, this whole guide is a lie

synapse

China13814 Posts

February 22 2013 10:52 GMT

I'm jealous of your sexy graphics

One thing I'd like to see is exactly how far hookshot goes, cuz I have no idea.

konadora

Singapore66160 Posts

February 22 2013 10:53 GMT

hoon #1 clockwerk fan

DrPandaPhD

5188 Posts

February 22 2013 11:17 GMT

Pretty sure Battery Assault is the most damaging spell in the game if you don't count ultimates. Does like 1000 damage or something, at least as I remember it.

Also worth mentioning is Necronomicon as an item, it's really strong on Clock.

keioh

France1099 Posts

February 22 2013 11:46 GMT

do you completely reject finishing drums ? Dat little speed boost can help chasing with dat mini-stun. Also upgrades bracer.

Mafe

Germany5966 Posts

February 22 2013 12:05 GMT

Man now I wanna play clockwerk. Nice guide.
Drums is quite useful on him, I'd agree. And as clockwerk benefits from mana/armor, what about veil of discord as a situational item (I think I bring this up in every second guide I comment, but I really like this item)?

Shootemup.

United States1044 Posts

February 22 2013 12:23 GMT

Awesome guide! I have been trying out Clockwerk recently and am really liking him, and I agree with the assessment of Aghanim's. It is really awesome but there are much better items to get.

konadora

Singapore66160 Posts

February 22 2013 12:38 GMT

#10

On February 22 2013 21:05 Mafe wrote:
Man now I wanna play clockwerk. Nice guide.
Drums is quite useful on him, I'd agree. And as clockwerk benefits from mana/armor, what about veil of discord as a situational item (I think I bring this up in every second guide I comment, but I really like this item)?

clockwerk himself doesn't give much magic damage, that money could be better spent on other supporting items like working towards a shiva or even blademail. if needed/wanted, veil can be bought on other supports, but clockwerk can just spend that money on better items.

Jehct

New Zealand9115 Posts

February 22 2013 13:49 GMT

#11

hero is legit broken, cogs are OP. One thing the guide kinda misses that I suggest you throw in is when to get a stout shield (pretty much core on any solo mid melee v ranged, for example, and very strong against more passive dual lanes).

Also, an incredibly underrated trick for him is the ring of basi/tranquils swapping (in which you disassemble one to make the other as needed/tranq cd is up); it fits with clock really well since you need the ring of regen for mek anyway, and ring of basi/tranquils help to remedy his ass base armor until mek is up.

Kipsate

Netherlands45349 Posts

February 22 2013 14:12 GMT

#12

u suck hoon

jk i luv u.

BleaK_

Norway593 Posts

February 22 2013 14:18 GMT

#13

Very nice guide!

Firebolt145

Lalalaland34490 Posts

February 22 2013 14:18 GMT

#14

HEY HOON

Nice guide mate

konadora

Singapore66160 Posts

February 22 2013 15:47 GMT

#15

also

wtf is a battle robit

wentzA

United States79 Posts

February 22 2013 16:09 GMT

#16

Do you really think arcanes and a bottle are both necessary? I find my mana problems are usually solved with the bottle, especially in the midgame when I can start snagging runes. I'd rather save cash for an earlier point booster and get tranquils (or phase if I'm doing really well and can afford it).

Mithhaike

Singapore2759 Posts

February 22 2013 16:45 GMT

#17

On February 23 2013 01:09 wentzA wrote:
Do you really think arcanes and a bottle are both necessary? I find my mana problems are usually solved with the bottle, especially in the midgame when I can start snagging runes. I'd rather save cash for an earlier point booster and get tranquils (or phase if I'm doing really well and can afford it).

Arcane also helps the team. Do not judge an item solely by what it gives to you.

MrHoon

10183 Posts

February 22 2013 18:35 GMT

#18

On February 22 2013 20:46 keioh wrote:
do you completely reject finishing drums ? Dat little speed boost can help chasing with dat mini-stun. Also upgrades bracer.

Drums are an amazing item don't get me wrong, but the problem with getting drums first is that it costs just too much for a first item. With that money you can buy yourself a Vit Booster/Point Booster + Bracer/Chainmail.

Drums is great, but not good enough!

On February 22 2013 22:49 Jehct wrote:
hero is legit broken, cogs are OP. One thing the guide kinda misses that I suggest you throw in is when to get a stout shield (pretty much core on any solo mid melee v ranged, for example, and very strong against more passive dual lanes).

Also, an incredibly underrated trick for him is the ring of basi/tranquils swapping (in which you disassemble one to make the other as needed/tranq cd is up); it fits with clock really well since you need the ring of regen for mek anyway, and ring of basi/tranquils help to remedy his ass base armor until mek is up.

I mentioned Stout at the bottom of the guide (it has no icon so I can understand why people missed it)

The tranquils is really nice on Clockwerk I agree. If Clockwerk didn't have such a lame Int gain I would take tranquils over Arcane everyday.

If your team already has 2-3 people who are going for Arcanes, then by all means take the Tranquil and Phase.
In most teams I believe having atleast 2 arcanes (unless you have a wisp/kotl) somewhat a requirement. If you believe you and your team won't have mana problems, you may just skip Arcanes as a whole.

Phase is great, but on a clockwerk unless you're mid I feel like it's super wasted. +24 damage is manly as fuck, but might as well just take Tranqs or better yet a even faster mek.

Also I'll improved this guide's laning stage part and I'll work on the tips and trick section soon!

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

February 22 2013 18:42 GMT

#19

The majority of mid melees typically 3 Branch->Bottle Crow now, tbh. Stout gets used a lot more in sidelanes than mid.

Erasme

Bahamas15899 Posts

February 22 2013 19:57 GMT

#20

clock is the hardest hero of dota

Nevuk

United States16280 Posts

February 22 2013 20:46 GMT

#21

Something to note for any offlane hero, the xp range for creeps that are being denied is 1000.

Kupon3ss

時の回廊10066 Posts

February 22 2013 21:15 GMT

#22

i feel like urn is superior to gauntlet in many situations and should at least be considered, otherwise very nice guide

r.Evo

Germany14080 Posts

February 22 2013 21:37 GMT

#23

I love this guys clock. Zero puns intended. Imagine if that thing could cut down trees, Yango!

Thanks for the guide. =)

scorch-

United States816 Posts

February 22 2013 21:56 GMT

#24

I think you should talk more about clockwerk's role in team-fighting situations. It can be confusing for new players to decide how to pick targets, and I know it's difficult to explain because it is totally dynamic and will change based on the situation, but it's important to understand how you decide who to hook and when and I certainly am not sure of my decisions when I do it until after the fight is over. Then I usually decide whether I fucked up or how I could have played better, haha. Since he's not the kind of hero where you can lock a hero down and kill them and he doesn't exactly stun people and he doesn't really do a lot of targeted damage or a lot of aoe damage, he does both, sort of uncontrollably too and it depends a lot on the other team's positioning, more experience and advice is always good.

MrHoon

10183 Posts

February 22 2013 22:00 GMT

#25

On February 23 2013 06:56 scorch- wrote:
I think you should talk more about clockwerk's role in team-fighting situations. It can be confusing for new players to decide how to pick targets, and I know it's difficult to explain because it is totally dynamic and will change based on the situation, but it's important to understand how you decide who to hook and when and I certainly am not sure of my decisions when I do it until after the fight is over. Then I usually decide whether I fucked up or how I could have played better, haha. Since he's not the kind of hero where you can lock a hero down and kill them and he doesn't exactly stun people and he doesn't really do a lot of targeted damage or a lot of aoe damage, he does both, sort of uncontrollably too and it depends a lot on the other team's positioning, more experience and advice is always good.

yeah I'm trying to finish that part for tonight, i left out so many things that I kinda feel uncomfortable reading my own thing

Also kupon Urn is really nice on clock, but as an offlaner Yango and I talked about this alot and we just decided an offlane Clock urn wasn't just a good investment.

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV Yango why arent u on steam i need to harass you even more

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

February 22 2013 22:04 GMT

#26

I wouldn't say it's "not a good investment", it's just not as predictable whether you'll be able to get charges.

Kupon3ss

時の回廊10066 Posts

February 22 2013 23:09 GMT

#27

To me, it feels like your inventory isn't so filled early game that you couldn't buy a pair of gauntlets. So since you have mek in your core build with no mana regen and no intention o building drums 2x gauntlet into urn feels like a no-brainer to me

At the very least I feel like its worth a mention since you go into detail even about items as questionable as force and vanguard

wairai

Malaysia1000 Posts

February 22 2013 23:20 GMT

#28

i pick clock and goes 1-12-20 on every game, so fking hard clock!

but i like this hero.. TT___TT

eTcetRa

Australia822 Posts

February 23 2013 07:25 GMT

#29

Covering my favorite hero in dota! <3

BurningSera

Ireland19621 Posts

February 23 2013 07:47 GMT

#30

I have seen some aggressive clock playstyle that goes with phase+urn and then go for agha core and an early Vanguard is by all means an OK item on clock because the hp boost is nice and a clock is probably not going to have the farm for a heart. Nice guide overall because Mek really benefits clock alot in most situations and Arcane is a too nice to give up on.

Forcestaff Clock is trollish but actually situationally good on against range carry (chasing or running from them) but obviously it is almost like the case of getting forcestaff on BH (rofl).

I'd like to see some carry clock build where you are forced to have more carry power in some situations, something like when a hardlane WR needed to get dps items etc.

edit:

ohya, does anyone feel like the rocket vision is different from dota1? I havent really tested it but dota2's rocket vision feels weird and some other clock users i know feel the same.

maru~

2345 Posts

February 23 2013 10:11 GMT

#31

I think you are underestimating damage a bit. Of course there are far more important stats to look out for, but when you trap someone in cogs you get up to 8 seconds to smack their face, where the 24 damage from Phase (for example) can add some good damage. Also chasing with Battery you can usually get a few extra hits in, so extra damage would help too. Maybe you could add a more aggressive build as an alternative (such as Phase + Urn for example), and say something about solo mid and dual lane Clock.
Force Staff can be used for some fun stuff like catching up to enemy Force Staff users, or to trap someone in Cog and then force yourself out, though it's kinda gimmicky.

Have you tried maxing Cog first? The manaburn could be worth it in some lanes, maybe. The extra duration would probably be more useful than bonus damage from Battery/Rocket in some games (i.e. when your team has tons of ranged dps/nukers but lacking lockdown).

Nice guide, I especially liked the item section. But I agree with the guy who said some explanation on when and how to use Hookshot in teamfights would be nice, plus maybe some more information on how to use his skills, how to go for solokills at different stages of the game, different usages for Cog etc. Clock is kind of tricky to play, it's not just about getting the right items.

SmackSmack

United Kingdom6 Posts

February 24 2013 00:44 GMT

#32

Just something I like to do, and I've no idea if it's the best way to play Clock, but I tend to go along this order of targets:

1st: Melee carry if we have a ranged carry, or enough nukes to kill him off. The carry is killing me, while my carry and team is killing him stuck in the cogs for 8 seconds. Sure, I might die, but so will their main carry.

2nd: Anyone out of position. Probably should be first, but I always try to isolate their carry first if possible. Other than hook and cogs to punish anyone that's out of position.

3rd: Split the team. Hook shot onto a support, and cog him or more in with you, splitting the enemy team up. Suddenly you've gone from 5v5 to 4v3 and 1v2, potentially even 4v2 & 1v3. I will gladly trade my life as Clockwerk to ensure 2 or 3 kills on the enemy team, simply for isolate 2/3 people away from the fight. The best way of this is in choke positions, such as Roshan's entrance, up / down ramps, jungle entrances etc.

Edit:

As for items, I've not had much Dota time recently, but I'm quite eager to try Tranquils & Soul Ring instead of Mana Boots + Bottle, before moving on to Mek. Not sure how well it'll work, but I'm going to give it several games to try at least.

aintz

Canada5624 Posts

February 24 2013 05:24 GMT

#33

dont get a bottle and treads are just fine. the most important part of this hero is to get level 6 and land those big hooks.

mizU

United States12125 Posts

February 24 2013 12:38 GMT

#34

Can you make a ds guide too hoonie

MSGHero

United States147 Posts

February 27 2013 02:05 GMT

#35

What kind of lanes does clock excel/not die against? Just went up against a gyro drow lane and that wasn't so hot, but then again, this is ap.

jergason

United States37 Posts

February 27 2013 13:32 GMT

#36

Whenever I play clock I always prioritize landing sick hooks above actually helping my team. I cannot help it. Gotta tone down the bloodlust.

Also you left out the part where you shout "KOBE" every time you land a hook.

SirMilford

Australia1269 Posts

February 27 2013 13:35 GMT

#37

On February 23 2013 19:11 maru~ wrote:
I think you are underestimating damage a bit. Of course there are far more important stats to look out for, but when you trap someone in cogs you get up to 8 seconds to smack their face, where the 24 damage from Phase (for example) can add some good damage. Also chasing with Battery you can usually get a few extra hits in, so extra damage would help too. Maybe you could add a more aggressive build as an alternative (such as Phase + Urn for example), and say something about solo mid and dual lane Clock.
Force Staff can be used for some fun stuff like catching up to enemy Force Staff users, or to trap someone in Cog and then force yourself out, though it's kinda gimmicky.

Have you tried maxing Cog first? The manaburn could be worth it in some lanes, maybe. The extra duration would probably be more useful than bonus damage from Battery/Rocket in some games (i.e. when your team has tons of ranged dps/nukers but lacking lockdown).

Nice guide, I especially liked the item section. But I agree with the guy who said some explanation on when and how to use Hookshot in teamfights would be nice, plus maybe some more information on how to use his skills, how to go for solokills at different stages of the game, different usages for Cog etc. Clock is kind of tricky to play, it's not just about getting the right items.

Cog first works well against jugg. About the only hero that i feel you should do it for, especially because of his crazy mana problems early game.

SmackSmack

United Kingdom6 Posts

February 27 2013 18:09 GMT

#38

On February 27 2013 22:32 jergason wrote:
Whenever I play clock I always prioritize landing sick hooks above actually helping my team. I cannot help it. Gotta tone down the bloodlust.

Also you left out the part where you shout "KOBE" every time you land a hook.

I hit a kill with Rocket Flare with someone just between their ancient and their fountain, from my jungle. I then proceeded to scream Hail Mary!

nojok

France15845 Posts

February 28 2013 00:13 GMT

#39

Max battery, phase boots, bottle, agha rush is the manly way to play clock.

TheEmulator

28088 Posts

February 28 2013 08:32 GMT

#40

Great guide Hoon!!!

Don't listen to Hot_Bid, hooks are hard to hit, and you're pro.

flamewheel

FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts

February 28 2013 10:59 GMT

#41

BATTLE ROBITZ

TheEmulator

28088 Posts

March 03 2013 07:05 GMT

#42

On February 28 2013 19:59 flamewheel wrote:
BATTLE ROBITZ

Also known as the BulbaWerk.

Nisyax

Netherlands756 Posts

March 22 2013 17:54 GMT

#43

Got Clockwerk in AR yesterday, continued to play him more in AP. He is awesome, hilariously fun and rewarding when you land them hookshots. This guy also makes both your team and opponents rage with either good or terrible (or terrible teammate) cogs.

For example (hilariously fun example), going to gank bot, stand in treeline, aim, FIRE HOOK, see nothing happen, realize there was an opponent on the same spot waiting to gank, which I ran into and hooked in his face, but didn't see since I was watching the guy in lane

Read up on some guides, this one is interesting as well good job.

evilfatsh1t

Australia8649 Posts

March 23 2013 04:47 GMT

#44

was wondering...wasnt clockwerk called clockwerk goblin? not goblin clockwerk?

Garfailed

Netherlands409 Posts

April 25 2013 07:00 GMT

#45

Can you snowball clockwerk?
I was theorycrafting about going armlet on him, to actually autoattack stuff down in coqs.
Im probably vert wrong here, but whats everyones take on this?

Xxazn4lyfe51xX

United States976 Posts

April 25 2013 07:19 GMT

#46

On April 25 2013 16:00 Garfailed wrote:
Can you snowball clockwerk?
I was theorycrafting about going armlet on him, to actually autoattack stuff down in coqs.
Im probably vert wrong here, but whats everyones take on this?

Could work if you find people alone. But in any sort of team fight where your job is to hook in, cog to disrupt survive as long as you can with battery assault on and then die, having HP drain and a bit of attack speed ain't exactly conducive to your task at hand. Or any sort of situation where they outnumber you really.

Firebolt145

Lalalaland34490 Posts

April 25 2013 07:43 GMT

#47

Your stat gain isn't the highest out there, nor do any of your spells act as steroids. As with any silly build out there, it could work, but only if you vastly outskill everyone else in the game. Any other snowballing carry would offer you more than a snowballing clockwerk.

maru~

2345 Posts

April 25 2013 07:49 GMT

#48

Of course Clock can snowball, especially if you don't have a shitty time early (i.e. not on suicide lane vs trilane ending up being severely underlevel and underfarmed). Doesn't mean you should get dps items though (go for tank items + Agha instead).

Garfailed

Netherlands409 Posts

April 25 2013 09:50 GMT

#49

I understand why one would want tanking items. But clockwerks main power is in its spells.
Once you get a sick hook and coqs of, What else is there to do? Wouldnt it be better to be able to contribute to the fight by rightclicking down supports? Instead of just dodgeing stuff and strolling about like a melee creep?

BuLba

United States1585 Posts

April 25 2013 09:57 GMT

#50

hi i just now read this. i used to love mana boots or phase but in the past month or so, i like treads the most. i have enough mana by tread switching and the attack speed and strength are worth it in my opinion, especially if u attack people with battery assault in ur cogs. treads bracer wand, sometimes casual cloak, into force is my favorite build. mek is good too but u usually need mana boots with this and i prefer the force more than anything.

maru~

2345 Posts

April 25 2013 11:13 GMT

#51

On April 25 2013 18:50 Garfailed wrote:
I understand why one would want tanking items. But clockwerks main power is in its spells.

Being tanky not only allows you to play more aggressively but also means you can stay in fights longer and get more spells out. That's much better than trying to boost his pathetic rightclick capabilities. Some items not only make him tankier but also offer additional utility in fights such as Agha, Shiva.

bluegarfield

Singapore1128 Posts

April 25 2013 11:52 GMT

#52

i am playing this hero quite often recently and i wonder if a drum worth considering given a bad start? i'm trying with brown boot, drum, then buckler into mek as drum give a bit of hp and mana then buckler for extra armor. but that's before reading this. any experienced ones can give me opinion on whether drum or a casual vit booster is better? with drum you will gain some mana allowing to cast your full combo plus extra spell on cd and it is built from bracer :D , but lose roughly 80hp and it cost 625gold more. yeah it is more expensive, but it comes in cheaper parts and easier to save up to buy (not saying it is impossible to save up 1100gold, just thinking along the line as force staff vs blink)
also how about soul ring? more mana for spamming but also die faster in battle

Firebolt145

Lalalaland34490 Posts

April 25 2013 13:16 GMT

#53

Drums are definitely good on Clockwerk. If you're going to go Mek though, it should be the first item you get before anything else. Casual vitality boosters are best on heroes that you'd go Heart on later, and Clockwerk isn't really a hero that should go for a Heart, nor does he typically farm enough for one anyway.

Soul ring isn't necessary for the reason you already mentioned, but also because the mana it gives you is slightly over kill. Clockwerk's mana pool is small, but the mana cost of his spells is also very small. One or two arcane boots on your allies is more than enough to keep chugging along.

Logo

United States7542 Posts

April 25 2013 13:45 GMT

#54

What about a Ring of Basilius? Armor is always useful for clock and if the game goes long maybe it's worth it to make a vlad's for your carry after some core tanky items.

Likewise if you go the treads route would medallion be viable as a supplement for ganking in a less teamfight oriented game (not with my previous question; as a separate item build)? Generally you're cogging/hooking with ally support and/or against supports where you have stronger auto-attack than them. Medallion seems like it'd be useful to burst down that first target and the +6 armor is useful (though obviously there's the overhead cost of getting it compared to other options).

Laserist

Turkey4269 Posts

April 25 2013 15:02 GMT

#55

On April 25 2013 18:57 Liquid`BuLba wrote:
hi i just now read this. i used to love mana boots or phase but in the past month or so, i like treads the most. i have enough mana by tread switching and the attack speed and strength are worth it in my opinion, especially if u attack people with battery assault in ur cogs. treads bracer wand, sometimes casual cloak, into force is my favorite build. mek is good too but u usually need mana boots with this and i prefer the force more than anything.

Without mana boots, I feel mana is always lacking. Tread switching is good but only to recover a small portion of spells.
I wonder how do you solve early-mid game mana issues without mana boots.

Firebolt145

Lalalaland34490 Posts

April 25 2013 15:14 GMT

#56

On April 26 2013 00:02 Laserist wrote:

Show nested quote +

Without mana boots, I feel mana is always lacking. Tread switching is good but only to recover a small portion of spells.
I wonder how do you solve early-mid game mana issues without mana boots.

Bully allies into getting them obviously.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

April 25 2013 15:17 GMT

#57

On April 25 2013 22:45 Logo wrote:
What about a Ring of Basilius? Armor is always useful for clock and if the game goes long maybe it's worth it to make a vlad's for your carry after some core tanky items.

Likewise if you go the treads route would medallion be viable as a supplement for ganking in a less teamfight oriented game (not with my previous question; as a separate item build)? Generally you're cogging/hooking with ally support and/or against supports where you have stronger auto-attack than them. Medallion seems like it'd be useful to burst down that first target and the +6 armor is useful (though obviously there's the overhead cost of getting it compared to other options).

You're not a heavy physical damage dealer, so Medallion doesn't enhance your damage output that much. In cases where your hero is not mostly a physical damage dealer, Urn usually increases damage in ganks more than Medallion.

On April 26 2013 00:14 Firebolt145 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Bully allies into getting them obviously.

It's actually not that bad.

Clock doesn't actually have *sustained* mana issues beyond Bottle, because Rocket is really cheap, and it's the only spell you'll use over and over again. This is also why Soul Ring and Basi aren't really good options because they're items geared toward a sustained mana usage problem. It's max mana issues that he has more than anything because using all 4 spells together in 1 engagement tends to blow almost all your mana. Treads works with the way Bulba has been following up, with an immediate Force Staff after, because holding the Staff or Wizardry buffers your max mana enough, an Treads Swap + Bottle covers your over-time mana usage.

I would have told Hoon to include the Treads as well (though I think the tradeoff is somewhat based on playstyle and the game), but he's been afk for like the past month.

Logo

United States7542 Posts

April 25 2013 18:19 GMT

#58

I guess it's just something I don't understand about medallion in general; why isn't it gotten more often in a supportive context to help with assisted ganks or bursts during teamfights? I know a lot of the time ganks are focused heavily on magic damage, but physical can also be a big part. Why wouldn't medallion on clockwerk help when you're trying to setup situations where Naix, PL, Gryo, Drow, or whomever is there for the assist? Is the armor reduction just not enough to justify it since it won't apply in all fight situations? It just seems like medallion would boost your team's DPS a lot especially with clock's style of separating the enemy team with cogs.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

April 26 2013 04:08 GMT

#59

The maximum % damage gain you get out of Medallion is 36% (taking someone from 6 armor to 0 armor). Urn is 150 HP removal-typed damage. You have to do 450+ physical damage for Medallion to be worth more damage than Urn in an early gank situation, you're rarely getting that much physical damage in before they're dead. In most of those ganks, the target doesn't even have that much more than 1000 HP, and 4th rank nukes usually do ~200-250 damage after reductions.

As the game progresses, your team does more damage, but the value of Medallion also gets weaker because the higher someone's armor is, the smaller of a % damage increase Medallion is worth (going from 16 armor to 10 armor is only a 22.5% damage increase).

Combined with the fact that Urn has dual use as a regen item,and doesn't sacrifice its self-stats to use the active, Medallion only really outperforms Urn on the whole when coupled with other -armor effects (allowing you to bring people to or below zero armor even later on in the game), or when used with the specific goal of taking Roshan (since Roshan's armor is fixed the entire game).

Tobberoth

Sweden6375 Posts

April 26 2013 06:54 GMT

#60

On April 26 2013 13:08 TheYango wrote:
The maximum % damage gain you get out of Medallion is 36% (taking someone from 6 armor to 0 armor). Urn is 150 HP removal-typed damage. You have to do 450+ physical damage for Medallion to be worth more damage than Urn in an early gank situation, you're rarely getting that much physical damage in before they're dead. In most of those ganks, the target doesn't even have that much more than 1000 HP, and 4th rank nukes usually do ~200-250 damage after reductions.

As the game progresses, your team does more damage, but the value of Medallion also gets weaker because the higher someone's armor is, the smaller of a % damage increase Medallion is worth (going from 16 armor to 10 armor is only a 22.5% damage increase).

Combined with the fact that Urn has dual use as a regen item,and doesn't sacrifice its self-stats to use the active, Medallion only really outperforms Urn on the whole when coupled with other -armor effects (allowing you to bring people to or below zero armor even later on in the game), or when used with the specific goal of taking Roshan (since Roshan's armor is fixed the entire game).

From what I see on dota 2 wiki, it's less than that. 6 armor gives only 26.5% damage reduction, so that's all you gain in damage. According to the dota 2 wiki, the most damage you can gain out of medallion is 31%... by taking a 0 armor enemy to -6 armor.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

April 26 2013 06:55 GMT

#61

26.5% damage reduction = 73.5% damage taken.

Going from 73.5% damage taken to 100% damage taken is a 36% damage increase.

Going from any positive armor value to 0 armor is equal to a 6*armor value % damage increase.

Firebolt145

Lalalaland34490 Posts

April 26 2013 07:02 GMT

#62

Ahahaha people always fall for that trap.

Tobberoth

Sweden6375 Posts

April 26 2013 07:14 GMT

#63

On April 26 2013 15:55 TheYango wrote:
26.5% damage reduction = 73.5% damage taken.

Going from 73.5% damage taken to 100% damage taken is a 36% damage increase.

Going from any positive armor value to 0 armor is equal to a 6*armor value % damage increase.

It hurts my brain (For a professional programmer, I suck at math) but it makes sense. I'm surprised though, I thought the whole point was that making enemies go below 0 armor should be a massive increase in damage.

synapse

China13814 Posts

April 26 2013 07:15 GMT

#64

On April 26 2013 13:08 TheYango wrote:
The maximum % damage gain you get out of Medallion is 36% (taking someone from 6 armor to 0 armor).

Not to be pedantic, but it's actually 4 armor to -2 armor
111.6/80.6 = 1.3846 -> 38.5% damage increase (numbers using http://www.dota2wiki.com/wiki/Armor)

On April 26 2013 16:14 Tobberoth wrote:

Show nested quote +

It kind of is a massive increase in damage. TA with -14 armor (meld + deso) can nearly double your autoattack damage for targets near 6~7 armor. Same with slardar ult.

Laserist

Turkey4269 Posts

April 26 2013 08:53 GMT

#65

I don't want to be a douche but ~%20 damage increase in late game is figgin' good imho. It may mean, opponent carry hits 2-4 (infinite if alchemist) less and you can kill him before rampage.
I am not debating urn over medallion and medallion is not good on clock either but late game is where enormous physical damage shines. Medallion is a tool for me even gets better at later stages. When team fights occur and 4-5 man focus on one so you can disintegrate with -6 armor.
I think urn gets worse as the time passes. I am more and more side with casual medallion on heroes for mid to late game to save an orb slot for your team and your carry.

Garfailed

Netherlands409 Posts

April 27 2013 16:45 GMT

#66

In todays G1 league qualifiers ive noticed that clockwerk got banned in almost every single game :O
Since when did he start to get relevant in the pro scene? I know bulba likes playing him, but apart from that i hardly saw him. Why/when did he start to become relevant in the proscene?

Firebolt145

Lalalaland34490 Posts

April 27 2013 17:15 GMT

#67

On April 28 2013 01:45 Garfailed wrote:
In todays G1 league qualifiers ive noticed that clockwerk got banned in almost every single game :O
Since when did he start to get relevant in the pro scene? I know bulba likes playing him, but apart from that i hardly saw him. Why/when did he start to become relevant in the proscene?

About a month or so ago Liquid started using him a lot as a counter to Naix, among other things. The fact that cogs holds him down without having to deal with his Rage spell, as well as Hookshot interrupting through BKB/immunity, makes him very useful against him and other BKB carriers. Cogs is a great spell because it completely disrupts teamfights, bouncing everyone around etc. His initiation and scouting with Rockets and Hookshot is nothing to scoff at either. He's quite flexible in laning, being able to solo any of the lanes or even fit in aggressive trilanes.

Other teams started picking him up shortly after.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

April 27 2013 17:21 GMT

#68

On April 26 2013 16:15 synapse wrote:

Show nested quote +

Not to be pedantic, but it's actually 4 armor to -2 armor
111.6/80.6 = 1.3846 -> 38.5% damage increase (numbers using http://www.dota2wiki.com/wiki/Armor)

That formula is wrong. The negative armor formula in DotA 2 is currently bugged to use the reverse of the positive armor formula (% damage reduction of positive armor = % damage reduction of same amount of negative armor). The wiki page assumes negative armor works the same as in DotA 1, which is incorrect.

Firebolt145

Lalalaland34490 Posts

April 27 2013 22:54 GMT

#69

I don't know what you were thinking, trying to make Yango like a fool like that. Surely you would know better?

synapse

China13814 Posts

April 28 2013 00:08 GMT

#70

On April 28 2013 07:54 Firebolt145 wrote:
I don't know what you were thinking, trying to make Yango like a fool like that. Surely you would know better?

Clearly I am the fool here T_T

Catch]22

Sweden2683 Posts

April 28 2013 17:19 GMT

#71

Bulba has shown people the light

Super good with him

JeYKaY

United States73 Posts

May 22 2013 04:09 GMT

#72

Nice guide! :D

MrHoon

10183 Posts

May 22 2013 06:44 GMT

#73

hello everyone, i just want to give a small update

WHen I first made this guide, Clockwerk was still a very questionable Hero. However times have changed ALOT since the release of this guide

Currently in the Asian Scene, Clockwerk is being played as a Semicarry more than an offlane initiating disabling battle controlling fighting robit

I am aware of this, and I will update the guide accordingly as soon as I get some time to rewrite the whole thing.

This guide isn't THAT old, but i firmly believe almost everything I have written in this guide is outdated.

I will make sure to update this guide as soon as possible! In the meantime please enjoy my old guide :D

igotmyown

United States4291 Posts

May 22 2013 08:46 GMT

#74

Cogs 1 to control their mana is so awesome now. Usually I'll only go rocket before level 4 if I want to cancel a salve, or if there's absolutely no way to last hit.

In my opinion, cog control is a huge deal. The mechanics are important, cogs will suck in units in melee attack range but not further, and it will knockback units within 300 units. You can cog people up cliffs, and if you cog next to the map border (mainly the sideshop), you will double knockback. Also cogging to ensure a last hit or even last hit a range creep AND ensure a melee last hit is really good, but takes a lot of practice. If you cog in the middle of the creep wave, it's a little hard to predict what happens, but if you understand it, it's important.

Walking out of the cogs will always burn the enemy, so right before the enemy leaves you can knock a cog out and run out and hope they follow, or force staff them out for extra damage.

TanGeng

Sanya12364 Posts

May 22 2013 22:00 GMT

#75

On May 22 2013 15:44 MrHoon wrote:

Don't worry about it. If you play Clockwerk support or Clockwerk offlane or Clockwerk mid, the strategies and builds are entirely different. Also Clockwerk builds are highly situational and more so that some other heroes.

Looking forward to the update.

Garfailed

Netherlands409 Posts

May 23 2013 11:40 GMT

#76

On May 22 2013 15:44 MrHoon wrote:

Awesome, im looking forward to it, i've been experimenting with clock builds myself alot too, so im really curious what your devious mind can come up with next

Ryrmidon

Canada371 Posts

May 23 2013 14:05 GMT

#77

Not sure about the eastern scene, but in the west Teamliquid started playing him a lot a few months ago and it caught on. Just a case of teams not really knowing how good the hero was. He's also a solid choice against lifestealer, whos probably the most played carry in the game right now.

734pot

Australia294 Posts

May 24 2013 09:45 GMT

#78

On May 23 2013 23:05 Ryrmidon wrote:

Show nested quote +

I've also heard a lot of pro players say that he is fairly good against magnus as well. I guess the fact that he can be strong as either a support or a solo makes him quite a powerful pick in the first stage of a draft as it doesn't fully reveal your lanes.

Saechiis

Netherlands4989 Posts

November 29 2013 14:16 GMT

#79

I've really taken a liking to this hero lately and I have some questions I hope someone could answer.

First of all, what is he supposed to do for your team? In teamfights I'm never sure whether I should go for something I can kill, maximum carnage or to disrupt the opponents carry. Am I looking to do maximum damage or to survive? Do I initiate for my team or do I wait for fights to start and cherrypick my targets? Am I trying to get items or giving up farm to try and get kills?

Forr items, currently I like going treads bottle, but it leaves me with too little mana to use a mech effectively. So I usually pick between blade mail (low HP burst opponents), necronomicon (invis opponents) or aghanims when I'm doing really well.But I'm not sure whether the hero is better played with defensive items like mech (icw arcanes), urn and forcestaff?

Also there seem to be a lot of items that could be good on him, like shiva's, pipe and veil?

Halp!

Pokebunny

United States10654 Posts

November 29 2013 18:51 GMT

#80

On November 29 2013 23:16 Saechiis wrote:
I've really taking a liking to this hero lately and I have some questions I hope someone could answer.

First of all, what is he supposed to do for your team? In teamfights I'm never sure whether I should go for something I can kill, maximum carnage or to disrupt the opponents carry. Am I looking to do maximum damage or to survive? Do I initiate for my team or do I wait for fights to start and cherrypick my targets? Am I trying to get items or giving up farm to try and get kills?

Forr items, currently I like going treads bottle, but it leaves me with too little mana to use a mech effectively. So I usually pick between blade mail (low HP burst opponents), necronomicon (invis opponents) or aghanims when I'm doing really well.But I'm not sure whether the hero is better played with defensive items like mech (icw arcanes), urn and forcestaff?

Also there seem to be a lot of items that [i][could/i] be good on him, like shiva's, pipe and veil?

Halp!

A lot of these are situational!

In teamfights, you want to consider the enemy team and your position in the game. If you're ahead, catching someone out that you can kill quickly is often a good idea. If you're behind or will die quickly, you'll want to wait for your team to be pretty close before you go on someone. If the other team has a melee carry with no blink/mobility spell, you pretty much should almost always buy a force staff, because you're essentially stopping him from attacking for several seconds with cogs. Cogs can also be used to split fights - jump in the middle of the enemy team? Cogs will likely split the fight and zone out an enemy hero or two if done properly. Generally past level 7ish you aren't sitting around farming lanes much, but obviously you want to pick up the farm that you can.

Treads bottle is okay but situational. Most people will prefer phase as a kind of offensive/solo ganking item as you can chase better with battery assault, but treads is probably maximum dps (although very slightly). Phase is also quite strong in a 1v1 lane if you happen to have such a situaiton early on. If you do go treads/phase rather than arcane, bottle is a fine idea for your mana/health sustain, as you won't really have much otherwise. Generally you want to determine pretty early on with your team whether you're getting the mek or not. If you are, you'll probably want to pick up arcanes and focus more on team utility items. If you aren't, you can go for items that give you more solo-kill potential (but still also are useful in teamfights): blademail, force, etc. Urn or drums can also be decent choices if no one on your team is getting them, though I prefer to put urn on a support. After 1-2 "cheap" (under 3k like mek, blademail, force, drums) items, I'd almost always go for aghs. The cooldown is great for chasing, counter initiating, it just has so much utility compared to a clock without aghs imo. Other items like shivas, AC, pipe (I don't think veil is any good) can definitely be considered before or after aghs depending on your team's needs.

Another thing that I strongly recommend against that is written in this guide is maxing Rocket Flare. This guide was written in a time where offlane clock was a bit more difficult to pull off - he greatly benefited from the creep equilibrium change because it is now much harder for supports to show up behind him, which made him fairly easy to kill even with cogs. You should usually be able to stay in xp range and even get some farm now even without a maxed rocket. 2 points in rocket can be okay if your opponents are aggressively denying, but usually supports won't stick around your lane too much in the current laning setup/meta, so you won't necessarily need to harass them out of lane (if they're constantly dedicating a full trilane you can get XP and be fine). Maxing rocket flare severely limits your kill potential once you hit level 6-7, which is where Clock really peaks in solo ganking power. As soon as you're 6-7 you can use a high leveled Battery Assault to TP/roam to another lane and get very easy kills with just 1 other hero. Skilling rocket flare makes you far less dangerous as soon as you leave the lane in exchange for only slightly better laning/farming ability, and really in the offlane your goal is to get levels and then go find kills.

doner0

United States233 Posts

November 29 2013 19:59 GMT

#81

lots of work put into this which is awesome! Good job man

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

November 29 2013 21:36 GMT

#82

On November 30 2013 03:51 Pokebunny wrote:
Treads bottle is okay but situational. Most people will prefer phase as a kind of offensive/solo ganking item as you can chase better with battery assault, but treads is probably maximum dps (although very slightly). Phase is also quite strong in a 1v1 lane if you happen to have such a situaiton early on. If you do go treads/phase rather than arcane, bottle is a fine idea for your mana/health sustain, as you won't really have much otherwise. Generally you want to determine pretty early on with your team whether you're getting the mek or not. If you are, you'll probably want to pick up arcanes and focus more on team utility items. If you aren't, you can go for items that give you more solo-kill potential (but still also are useful in teamfights): blademail, force, etc. Urn or drums can also be decent choices if no one on your team is getting them, though I prefer to put urn on a support. After 1-2 "cheap" (under 3k like mek, blademail, force, drums) items, I'd almost always go for aghs. The cooldown is great for chasing, counter initiating, it just has so much utility compared to a clock without aghs imo. Other items like shivas, AC, pipe (I don't think veil is any good) can definitely be considered before or after aghs depending on your team's needs.

Tranquils should also not go unnoticed after the change in 6.79. While they were somewhat impractical in 6.78, the retained movespeed and armor make them very good now.

On November 30 2013 03:51 Pokebunny wrote:
Another thing that I strongly recommend against that is written in this guide is maxing Rocket Flare. This guide was written in a time where offlane clock was a bit more difficult to pull off - he greatly benefited from the creep equilibrium change because it is now much harder for supports to show up behind him, which made him fairly easy to kill even with cogs. You should usually be able to stay in xp range and even get some farm now even without a maxed rocket. 2 points in rocket can be okay if your opponents are aggressively denying, but usually supports won't stick around your lane too much in the current laning setup/meta, so you won't necessarily need to harass them out of lane (if they're constantly dedicating a full trilane you can get XP and be fine). Maxing rocket flare severely limits your kill potential once you hit level 6-7, which is where Clock really peaks in solo ganking power. As soon as you're 6-7 you can use a high leveled Battery Assault to TP/roam to another lane and get very easy kills with just 1 other hero. Skilling rocket flare makes you far less dangerous as soon as you leave the lane in exchange for only slightly better laning/farming ability, and really in the offlane your goal is to get levels and then go find kills.

Skill order is very situational. Being 2-1-3-1 at level 7 or 3-1-2-1 at level are the most common, but both fo 4-1-1-1 and 1-1-4-1 are situationally good too.

Remember that while Battery Assault is the strongest skill for killing people, it's also the weakest skill for winning your lane through any means other than killing your opponent (which a smart opponent will never expose themselves to pre-6).

What your goals are on off-lane depends highly on the game. In most higher-level games, the off-laner does have to resign themselves to a lost lane in the face of competent support play and strong hero picks, but this is NOT always the case. There are many cases in pubs where you should be focused on crushing the carry laned against you. Rocket Flare max can put pressure on their carry which forces a support to be there for him to get farm, which is a lot of pressure. Again, it depends highly on your level of play, the picks, and your personal approach to the hero.

TechSc2

Netherlands554 Posts

November 30 2013 01:32 GMT

#83

So silly ol' me started to write a huge wall of text before checking when this guide was actually posted/last edited. I ddin't want to just delete the text so i put it in a spoiler tag.

I think this guide is really good even in the newer patch if you are running a 4 position support clockwerk.

for those that want to read, go ahead

+ Show Spoiler +

Ok so where do i start.

I play clockwerk ALOT since i'm always offlaning in TMM's or with friends.

You only have listed 1 skill build, which is not flexible enough for clock werk, you skill differently depending on what lane you are in ( mid or offlane or even safelane solo if you have agressive tri on your side )

Offlane if they don't have enough disable to lock you down for a kill, you should be getting 3-1-1-1 at level 6, if you are against lots of disables and good early damage trilane, go flare and get last hits with it. so at level 6 it should be 1-1-3-1 at level 6.

In mid it really depends if you are against a ranged hero or melee hero and how well your lane is going, go more battery assault if you are doing well, or more flare if you need last hits.

Now item builds:

If you look at professional games, noone actually builds anything like you suggest. Mana problems can be solved by much more teameffective items. Your 4-5 position should build arcanes.

If you already have 2 bottle reliant hero's on your team, or rune dependent hero's. then you should not get a bottle and solve mana problems by stacking mana regen items. So you can go brown boots into drums and your mana problems are solved by the occasional mana boots from supports. Since when you hit level 6 you should be raoming with other people to get kills. The urn also provides you with even more solo kill potential then you already had.

If you get decent farm on your offlane you can go into a bottle and not build the urn and let one of your 4-5 position pick it up.

The next part weaves into several things at once, so it'll be a bit more of a wall of text.

Arcanes are bad for several reasons. early on you want damage output to be able to kill off even carries solo if they are in a bad position, the +24 damage from phase boots with 5 gauranteed hits inside cogs make phase boots so much better then arcanes. Threads are a better choice if you are expecting to be more the frontline hero in teamfights and you want more attack speed. in overall DPS threads on str is slightly less damage early game then phase, but scale better lategame. in that case threads into a blademail is just so much better. you can thread switch to int for the mana regen and you're golden with either an urn or drums for your mana.

So mek, you spend over 2K gold for an item which your 4 should build, and you have enormous mana problem using a hookshot, cog battery assault combo at all times. you ned to keep your arcanes off cooldown to use in the middle of a teamfight in order for you to even get it off pre level 9-10 since your int gain sucks. for armour pick up a chainmail for 550 gold and gain the same armour but spend 1.5K gold les which you can invest into drums because you will probably get a bracer anyway.

Arcanes are only viable if you play a full support clockwerk which then this guide is 100% accurate, because you will build arcanes into mek and be a full support hero. Tranquils are a real debate since the hp regen is nice when roaming, and your move speed base is pretty good with it. but falls off quickly later in the game much like phase boots do.

Your list of items to get list lots of items that you think are not great on clock, while those are the better items to get on clock Oo.

So lets go down the list.

Blademail:
Absolutely amazing item, but not first on the list to get. It also depends alot if your opponents team is about burst damage or more drawn out teamfights. if you are up against huge burst then get this and even if they ignore you for 4.5 seconds to try to kill someone else, they have a hard time because you are in their face with cogs to boot so getting to other hero's is really hard.

hood/pipe:
Very situational, you explained this item exactly how it is for clock, but might be worth getting it since you will be getting more farm then your 4-5 position and they can't finish a pipe if your opponent has lots of magic damage.

Vangaurd:
Plain and simple no, you build more armour/hp for survivablity which scales better for clock later on since you can upgrade those items easily into lategame items.

Forcestaff:

Must have. plain and simple, and even first item after your boots. the +10 int gives you good mana regen and your ability to pick fights you want, and get out alive is amazing. also having the ability to save your teammates ass is 10 times better then any other item out there.

Vladimir's offering:
Very situational item. pick it up if you can free up the slot of your carry player if you play a 4 protect 1 start, otherwise leave it in the shop at all times.

Ghost scepter:
Situational item. if your opponent is relying on alot of physical damage to kill you, you can pick it up, and only when the physical damage is 80%+ otherwise blademail is the better choice.

Heaven's Halberd:
Situational item again. pick it up if you are against a 4 protect 1 strategy. Hook into the carry, disarm them and let your team go to town.

Shiva's gaurd:
lots of money for not alot of gain for clockwerk. with an urn and drums and thread switching mana is not an issue, and the armour can be bought on other better items. AC is out of the question as well since you won't be getting that much room to farm and if you do get so much farm/kills, it doesn't really matter anymore when items you get. Also since you will be a "to kill" hero in teamfights, it's risky to put a big teamfight item like that on you, simply because if you die, the gain for your team is gone.

Aghanim's scepter:
almost a must get, but always a bit situational when to get it. your secondary or even tertiary hooks in teamfights will be amazing. is also amazing to get away from fights or even chase down hero's if you want to clean up after a teamfight you won and they are trying to get away. i try to get it as a third item, or fourth depending on how much farm i'm getting and how much the team needs my initiation/disengage early on. The ability to hook into a fight, then you seem to lose the fight, hook again, drop cogs and run so you can disjoint the fight is simply too good to say that you don't need/want the agh's.

I would say your guide is 100% spot on and absolutely amazing if this was a support clockwerk guide but i feel like this guide misses the potential of a well build clockwerk.

DavoS

United States4605 Posts

November 30 2013 06:18 GMT

#84

Mid clockwerk can get phase to help position for hooks, but you really need rune control to make it work. That bottle is lifesaving for his low mana pool. Once I get hook as solo mid I just start roaming top or bottom to wherever the rune is and look for kills.
Edit: and I disagree with the idea that you shouldn't get treads ever. If you get arcanes, you might not have the armor and hp to jump on tankier heroes, and if you get tranquils the limited mana pool can bite you in the butt. Ideally you can get enough of a lead that the armor doesn't matter as much, but if it's a close game the flexibility treads provides is better

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

November 30 2013 06:25 GMT

#85

Mek is virtually never an item for 4 to build TechSc2, unless that 4th position is a jungler or extremely fed from laning phase kills. The current pace of the game demands Mek in that 10-15 minute range for midgame pushing/teamfighting, and for the most part you cannot delay Mek into the 18-20 minute range that a non-jungling 4th position hero could get one, at least not in 6.79.

Pokebunny

United States10654 Posts

November 30 2013 06:54 GMT

#86

On November 30 2013 10:32 TechSc2 wrote:
So silly ol' me started to write a huge wall of text before checking when this guide was actually posted/last edited. I ddin't want to just delete the text so i put it in a spoiler tag.

I think this guide is really good even in the newer patch if you are running a 4 position support clockwerk.

for those that want to read, go ahead

+ Show Spoiler +

Yeah a lot of your item recommendations were pretty similar to what I posted.

igotmyown

United States4291 Posts

December 01 2013 09:34 GMT

#87

Blade mail's most useful in solo kill situations, pretty terrible in teamfights.

Bkb should never be underrated. Agh doesn't do much for you if you're dead after your first hook.

Shivas is decent vs multiple dps core, since armor is really really important, and so is slowing multiple attack speed.

Phase is mostly for solo killing. You don't have to cog enemies, when they're being ministunned and you have phase boot speed advantage. It's also good if you can bait the blink before you hook/cog.

I think the hardest part of being a good clock is that hooking isolated targets is often not the optimal play. Sometimes it's better to counter-initiate, and in team fights separating/trapping the team can be far more useful (but it's a lot less clear what that hook is).

Teams are picking clock in tournaments not for solo killing, but because he's such a dominant over-extension punisher. Those games where someone picks at the tier 3 tower, then they commit, then they decide they have to back, that's when clockwerk destroys their team. But 80% of pub games you're just going to be going on solo killing sprees

And if you can fulfill your function without a force staff, midas isn't bad. If they have force staff, remember you can hook, assault, then force staff after them, then cog.

Darpa

Canada4413 Posts

December 01 2013 15:50 GMT

#88

The guide is well written and makes of lot of sense, opened up my eyes to alot of different options.

That said, I dont think I have ever seen a clockwerk offlaner go mech in a pro game. I would think thats exceedingly rare. I really dont see how it benefits you more than other items, its somewhat situational. That and the fact that your hard support will almost always go mech, even in pubs. Also I think Hood is pretty much bad in just about any circumstance, if their magic is that big, you need a bkb anyway.

Still, alot of good alternatives that I didnt think of, like tranquil boots in the offlane.

Firebolt145

Lalalaland34490 Posts

December 01 2013 15:53 GMT

#89

On December 02 2013 00:50 Darpa wrote:
The guide is well written and makes of lot of sense, opened up my eyes to alot of different options.

That said, I dont think I have ever seen a clockwerk offlaner go mech in a pro game. I would think thats exceedingly rare. I really dont see how it benefits you more than other items, its somewhat situational. That and the fact that your hard support will almost always go mech, even in pubs. Also I think Hood is pretty much bad in just about any circumstance, if their magic is that big, you need a bkb anyway.

Still, alot of good alternatives that I didnt think of, like tranquil boots in the offlane.

The Tranquils recommendation is out of date. I wouldn't do it any more as it loses out to Phase/Arcanes/Treads now.

Darpa

Canada4413 Posts

December 01 2013 16:47 GMT

#90

On December 02 2013 00:53 Firebolt145 wrote:

Show nested quote +

The Tranquils recommendation is out of date. I wouldn't do it any more as it loses out to Phase/Arcanes/Treads now.

bah, hahaha I was looking forward to trying it haha. Thanks for saving me

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

December 01 2013 17:01 GMT

#91

Tranquils are still fine, tbh. They don't give you as much damage-dealing ability as Phase or Treads (which matters a lot) but with such a cheap price tag for 60 MS + 4 armor they are still quite good.

Honestly they're better for Clock than they were pre-patch.

Saechiis

Netherlands4989 Posts

December 01 2013 17:23 GMT

#92

I'm really liking urn on clock now, I feel the item helps him snowball early game since you'll always take damage cogging people in with you. It helps you maintain your HP (not to mention increase it) for the next ult cooldown and with treads gives you some wiggle room where you don't have to go back to base every time there isn't a rune. I've also found that getting it early, it actually does a shitload of damage as with 5 seconds of cogs entrapment you can almost ensure double usage, that's 300 "pure" damage I believe.

Not sold on forcestaff as a first item, it feels like an item you'd get when you can't outmuscle the opponents' melee carrie(s) anymore. If you're still doing well, why not build blademail or aghs instead and keep your solo kill potential scary longer into the game? I like building up that paranoia where everytime the opponent sees a rocket flare they shit their pants. Granted I'm not playing at a high level so these are just my thoughts on how I like to play the hero in pubs. Some dota guru should really make an extensive video with replay material explaining what makes competetive dota so different in item choice. *hint Yango

PS. I've stopped building necronomicon since the melee warrior spawns outside of cogs half the time -_-'

PassiveAce

United States18076 Posts

December 01 2013 23:01 GMT

#93

items have instant cast time, why not just pop necro right before you cog?

zeehar

Korea (South)3804 Posts

December 01 2013 23:12 GMT

#94

On December 02 2013 08:01 PassiveAce wrote:
items have instant cast time, why not just pop necro right before you cog?

too much micro required

Saechiis

Netherlands4989 Posts

December 02 2013 01:12 GMT

#95

Simply hadn't crossed my mind actually, the cog mechanic is so random sometimes in whether it decides to pull something in or push it away that I didn't give it anymore thought. Will try.

govie

9334 Posts

December 02 2013 11:54 GMT

#96

I loved the guide. It was really well written, but after 6.79 and all the posts ive read, could someone plz tell me if i understood the changes correctly? (or could someone update OP).

+ Show Spoiler +

Levelling
U are getting descent exp and gold, go BA 311
U are not getting descent exp and gold, go flare 113 (for farming)
at lvl 11 try to snowball with kills (roaming), extra range ultimate gives u that possibility.

Boots
Phaseboots --> timing early to mid
Threads --> timing mid to late

Supporting CW, u dont see that everyday anymore (there are better options, but if u CW support)
TQ boots --> when supporting without meka
Arcanes --> when supporting with meka

General itembuild for casual pubs
Wand, Bottle, Phaseboots (PB because it gives me more chance to snowball early and makes lasthitting easier)
Blademail, Urn/forcestaff (forcestaff when they have a drowslow, viperslow etcetc, else urn), Septer

More or better items are luxury and enemy/colleguehero dependant.

MrHoon

10183 Posts

December 02 2013 16:16 GMT

#97

I would love to update this guide, but i can't edit my own Original post lol

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

December 02 2013 16:28 GMT

#98

On December 03 2013 01:16 MrHoon wrote:
I would love to update this guide, but i can't edit my own Original post lol

You can now.

govie

9334 Posts

December 02 2013 17:00 GMT

#99

u guys work too fast!

Elucidate

205 Posts

December 05 2013 01:28 GMT

#100

A slight update to this would make me super happy, it's a very good guide.

Danglars

United States12133 Posts

December 19 2013 06:43 GMT

#101

I'm curious how much of this still applies. From the original guide, if I may summarize:
Sticks, Stout, Tangoes & salve -> Boots -> Bottle
Get Arcane boots, phase boots clear losers unless mid, power treads loser compared to casual vit
Get Mek ... Mek before even wand.
If Mek claimed, go casual Vit/Point/or Plate. Plate favorite unless you really need the HP.

Anything changed from this? I still don't see too many vanguards in pro play, though a stout shield firstpick and a recommendation for casual vit booster puts this tantalizingly in reach.
Bottle crow still viable as offlaner post-nerf, particularly in the pub courier clusterflux?
Mek before Wand still viable?

Author is mixed feelings Pipe/Blade Mail. Changed to very good or still same?
Author likes Vlad's 3rd big item, but I have never really seen this? Changed opinion?
Author is negative on Agh's (More situational, only get if you can give up HP regen, armor, and utility). Changed?
New item strats in midgame?

Pokebunny

United States10654 Posts

December 20 2013 21:50 GMT

#102

I would only get arcanes on clock if you're the mek carrier, otherwise treads or phase into force and aghs. Casual plate or vit is pretty unusual. I would say force aghs is a good standard

hariooo

Canada2830 Posts

March 01 2014 14:05 GMT

#103

What is the chronology of bone7's build exactly?

http://dotabuff.com/players/88719902/matches?hero=clockwerk&game_mode=&match_type=real

Does he get Orchid or Blademail first?

Heu

Germany11 Posts

March 01 2014 18:12 GMT

#104

in progames he usually gets blademail first! i dont know about public games though!

TheSubtleArt

Canada2527 Posts

March 02 2014 00:44 GMT

#105

I think you undervalue Force Staff, imo it's one of the best items on Clockwerk and synergizes amazingly well with his spells.

BobMcJohnson

France2916 Posts

March 03 2014 12:21 GMT

#106

On March 01 2014 23:05 hariooo wrote:
What is the chronology of bone7's build exactly?

http://dotabuff.com/players/88719902/matches?hero=clockwerk&game_mode=&match_type=real

Does he get Orchid or Blademail first?

Looking at the match history, it seems to be Tranquils > Blademail > Orchid > Dagon.

Sounds fun, i'll try it. Not sure how viable it is if you're not bone7 though

govie

9334 Posts

March 03 2014 14:43 GMT

#107

It could be that he picks TQ boots when he goes for an orchid early, they synergize well against escape heros that ruin your combo. If they dont have an escape blademail+phaseboots seems better to me.

ZerG~LegenD

Sweden1179 Posts

March 03 2014 16:06 GMT

#108

One of the big selling points of Blade mail is that it allows you to solo kill enemy cores that would otherwise have crushed you, like Luna and Gyrocopter. However, if you're having a rough game and cannot pick it up before they get their BKB, then Blademail loses much of its usefulness.

Building an Orchid on Clock hurts your team-fighting a lot as you have to get into the thick of things with no natural escape. It is good for getting solo pick offs, but synergies terribly with Blade mail. You should not even consider the possibility of building an Orchid if the enemy does not have a slippery hero like Weaver or Ember, and preferably they should not be going BKB.

FFGenerations

7088 Posts

March 04 2014 00:28 GMT

#109

treads give you sick attack speed, sick hp, sick dmg, and like +100 mana if you need it (just figured this out LOL)

i go bottle treads blademail ags/heart. i tried havent mek yet

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

March 04 2014 00:36 GMT

#110

You pretty much have to go Arcanes if you go Mek to be able to support the mana.

It's a playstyle of Clock that has fallen out of favor since the Agi buff because with not-terrible Agi gain, Clock has less need for armor and does a noticeable amount more right-click damage. It's still situationally good if your team needs it though.

Kabras

Romania3508 Posts

March 04 2014 12:16 GMT

#111

mek's better than vanguard, but that forces you into arcane boots so it's not ideal. only do that if nobody else can get the mek. bottle, point booster + phase is better than both. treads are also better than arcane boots. tranquils aren't worth it unless you are dirt poor.

NeThZOR

South Africa7387 Posts

March 04 2014 12:48 GMT

#112

On March 04 2014 09:28 FFGenerations wrote:
treads give you sick attack speed, sick hp, sick dmg, and like +100 mana if you need it (just figured this out LOL)

i go bottle treads blademail ags/heart. i tried havent mek yet

Force staff is also good to get as your first core item if you are playing up against heroes such as Nature's Prophet, Lifestealer and Venomancer. Generally a good pickup all-round.

Verrou

France193 Posts

March 04 2014 16:00 GMT

#113

Was casually reading this thread while waiting for a AR match and got clock. It was very helpful =)

I've also fallen in love with the little battle robbit. HOOKS <3 I don't have to fear pudge killing my teammates anymore, i'll just follow them <3 to victory!

I've gone mek once (had a really good lane, got it under 10 minutes) and aghs once (yeah, it IS stupid, you don't have the mana sustain to keep it up early, i was lucky to have teammates helping me with manaboots the second time). saving people with a hook-mek is such a good feeling

would have to try and go for urn next game, i just can't seem not to get kills and fast gold with this dude for now...

I can't comment much on the quality of the guide except that it's helping me win so far... I'm too bad with this dude yet but i'll be reading this while practicing him and comment back when i will have more to add.

Thanks for making a guide for him btw

woreyour

582 Posts

March 05 2014 09:01 GMT

#114

played 2 games in pub, won. Something tells me dagon is not a bad choice, all that hard work and people kill stealing makes me mad.

fastandfury

Ukraine6 Posts

March 05 2014 11:46 GMT

#115

i understand that question might be kinda stupid, but when you should make force stuff as 1st item on clockwerk? i saw someone on WePlay was making it as 1st time, but i cant understand why should you do that, mostly i am trying to get aghanim 1st, any suggestions?

Mandalor

Germany2362 Posts

March 06 2014 12:18 GMT

#116

On March 05 2014 20:46 fastandfury wrote:
i understand that question might be kinda stupid, but when you should make force stuff as 1st item on clockwerk? i saw someone on WePlay was making it as 1st time, but i cant understand why should you do that, mostly i am trying to get aghanim 1st, any suggestions?

As much as I love aghs (and usually get it early), I don't see the usefulness of it really. Apart from the stats gain (which is negligible considering the cost) what does it do really? You have close to zero cd on your hook. It's nice to always have an escape ability, but force staff does that trick as well and is a lot cheaper obv. And how many times in a very short time span are you really going to use your hook offensively?
In close games (or ones I don't feel miles ahead in the mid game), Aghs is one of the last items I get nowadays and it works much better for me that way. In fact, in games I (or my entire team) am significantly behind, I don't try to buy Aghanims at all and focus purely on disabling the opponent's biggest threat without dying (force staff, ghost scepter, halberd are pretty good items for that matter).

Logo

United States7542 Posts

March 06 2014 17:50 GMT

#117

On March 06 2014 21:18 Mandalor wrote:

Show nested quote +

I find agh's situational too, but look at it this way... level 3 agh's hook has almost the same cd, stun duration, and damage as a storm bolt while still being a hook (25 less damage and 1s less cd on hook). Then on top of that hook also pauses the unit until clockwerk connects with them for the stun so it's even got that going for it.

That said I agree with your reasoning about when you get it and why.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

March 06 2014 18:05 GMT

#118

Making Aghanim's useful has a couple requirements. Two are on you, third is something that depends on the game:

1) You have enough survivability to stay in a fight long enough to get additional Hookshots (lower Hookshot CD doesn't matter if you're dead or have to suicide to use it)

2) You have enough mana from items to cast additional Hookshots without restricting your other spells (lower Hookshot CD doesn't matter if you can't cast them)

3) Fights go long enough for you to need additional Hookshots (lower Hookshot CD doesn't matter if there's nothing to use it on).

If all those 3 things are true, Agh's is appropriate. It's almost never true at 1st item. Usually it's 3rd or 4th item when you've satisfied the 2 requirements you can control.

DazzleEnthusiast

United States72 Posts

March 27 2015 22:17 GMT

#119

Most of the posts are old so i'm not sure how much has changed. what's the preferred role for clock these days? should i just start roaming as soon as i hit 6? i've been skilling 2-1-2-1 and maxing cogs last, not sure if that's the common build though. typically im just building forcestaff and maybe blademail if called for, otherwise just utility items as needed.

my main objective in team fights is to just solo out a hero, yeah? like i'm not sure if i play a role similar to vengeful spirit in getting myself killed is typically a worthwhile result for my team, etc. thanks for the help

ahswtini

Northern Ireland22208 Posts

March 27 2015 22:35 GMT

#120

in teamfights you generally want to hookshot into a high value target, then move past them and cogs so that you push them into your team, and cut them off from their team. a lot of people just hook and trap in cogs, but that makes it more likely for you to die, and it also makes it difficult for your team to attack them

l3loodraven

2753 Posts

March 28 2015 00:19 GMT

#121

^yes the key to playing clock when your opponents group up (which they should vs clock) is forcing the right enemy hero out of positon while controlling the rest of your opponents as much as possible, all through the power of the fantastically broken spell known as power cogs

Buckyman

1364 Posts

March 28 2015 02:09 GMT

#122

The 'team buster' hookshot, explained as I understand it. I am not an expert myself, though I'm practicing; this was refined from watching a bunch of initiations by pros to see what tends to win a fight:

The enemy team will generally have a frontline with their primary initiator and possibly a tanky scout, a middle made of brawlers and a rear group of supports and maybe ranged DPS.

The time for a Team Buster is when the opponent's team is rounding a corner or passing through a choke point.

Do not target the first frontliner through the chokepoint. Hook their second or third hero as they pass the choke point. Drop cogs with at least one frontliner on your team's side, the rear group on the other side and a fighting core stuck in the middle. If you can, cog-bump their primary initiator with the same cog drop. Then pop blademail and battery assault, or force staff out, or whatever.

The idea is that, with a perfect combo, their front line is forced to fight 1v4 or 2v4, their primary initiator is unable to respond for a second due to cog-burn, their best manfighter needs to bust out of cogs to do anything, and their support crew needs to walk the long way around the outside of the cogs, which would take at least as long as destroying two of them with right-clicks.

If you fail to get the first jump, though, hooking into their backline and pushing them away is okay as well.

DucK-

Singapore11447 Posts

March 28 2015 03:49 GMT

#123

On March 28 2015 07:17 DazzleEnthusiast wrote:
Most of the posts are old so i'm not sure how much has changed. what's the preferred role for clock these days? should i just start roaming as soon as i hit 6? i've been skilling 2-1-2-1 and maxing cogs last, not sure if that's the common build though. typically im just building forcestaff and maybe blademail if called for, otherwise just utility items as needed.

my main objective in team fights is to just solo out a hero, yeah? like i'm not sure if i play a role similar to vengeful spirit in getting myself killed is typically a worthwhile result for my team, etc. thanks for the help

I'd never do a hybrid skill build. It's either max batt at 7 or rockets at 7. Batt usually for me. Rockets if I think there's little solo kill potential (vs potm qop storm etc). Rockets or Batt not maxed are pretty rubbish spells.

Force staff is so important on this hero. I see too many bad clock players go for agha rush or something. Agha is better as a 3rd or 4th item. Also don't ever get mjonilir. If you have too much gold, a dagon would do you better.

l3loodraven

2753 Posts

March 28 2015 04:11 GMT

#124

orchid is quite nice as well if you get a good start but are having trouble with a storm or qop or whatever

DucK-

Singapore11447 Posts

March 28 2015 04:18 GMT

#125

On March 28 2015 13:11 l3loodraven wrote:
orchid is quite nice as well if you get a nice start but are having trouble with a storm or qop or whatever

I usually get it if I'm snowballing. Also I don't commit to the purchase unless I see that storm is building towards bloodstone hex or something. It's pointless to get it if he has bkb, and the timing is usually the case. Basically I buy the whole piece in 1 go if possible, or hide the fact that I'm building it.

govie

9334 Posts

March 28 2015 13:33 GMT

#126

I build clockwerk differently then most at a 62% winrate over 82 matches at mediocre mmr (build has higher winrate as not every game i played in the start had this approach).

Skillbuild : 4111 into 4411
Itembuild : TQ+Wand+Sobi+dust/smokes/clarity > Blademail+euls (only 6550 gold in total for this build) > into aghs and/or whatever is needed

+ Show Spoiler +

I roam 24/7 after i get TQ+wand+Sobi around lvl6/7. It works well in greedy drafts because someone else can farm the offlane. Euls midgame is key and i value it higher then force or even aghs. A 2nd totally different way to initiate a good cog and it cancels blinkdagger, awesome item imho. TQ heals you, the itemparts of the euls help to take care of your manapool and it offers some extra utility when finished. In general i prefer euls to gank and hookshot to initiate, I get aghs mid/late game (mostly for mobility because 2000 range blink at a low cd).

Dont forget smokes+dusts+wards are your best friend. Euls>force and even aghs works for me at mediocre mmr. Clockwerk is my go to AP hero, just because i dont need farmpriority in a cancerous pubenvironment with this build. To note, I warded/dewarded in 99% of these games after i got lvl6.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

March 28 2015 16:45 GMT

#127

Tranq is situationally fine, but a huge liability to not have boots that increase your early-midgame burst damage (Treads or Phase). You only really want it in lanes that are really difficult and demand the extra regen, otherwise the other 2 Boots add significantly to your early killing power. Urn or Bottle supplement your regen.

You really don't need extra Cogs duration over maxing Rocket Flare. Remember Cogs' mana cost goes up, and you won't be able to support it that comfortably around level 10-11. You need more levels and more mana items.

govie

9334 Posts

March 28 2015 17:37 GMT

#128

- I dont like bottle on the offlane, so thats why i go naked TQ+sobi+with some clarities if needed.
- The cogs manadrain/damage scales pretty well for only 10 more mana per level and i want the 3 hits+8second duration as early as possible. I roam 24/7 so the clarity/tq/sobi/blademail has enough time to regenerate some mana/hp for the next attempt. As far i can recall i have only maxed flare over cogs when i died early to be able to catch up in farm, but being behind sucks on clockwerk in general.

In my opinion the build offers more utility/setup and less damage output in general, thats why it feels pretty versatile regardless of both drafts and it has earlier/early timings goldwise then most other clockwerk builds. But its clockwerk so alot of stuff works on him, i just wanted to share my experience with my goto build/playstyle for clockwerk.

l3loodraven

2753 Posts

March 28 2015 17:58 GMT

#129

euls is getting nerfed for sure so it would probably be wise to become familiar with other styles.

I still think forcestaff and blademail are the go-to midgame items. once you have both these you are free to initiate on just about anyone you want, and as long as you disjoint enemy movements properly you should either survive or do a ton of damage with blademail. euls is good for survival as well, but I think the mobility of force and damage+zoning potential of bm is strongest.

nojok

France15845 Posts

March 28 2015 19:01 GMT

#130

On March 29 2015 01:45 TheYango wrote:
Tranq is situationally fine, but a huge liability to not have boots that increase your early-midgame burst damage (Treads or Phase). You only really want it in lanes that are really difficult and demand the extra regen, otherwise the other 2 Boots add significantly to your early killing power. Urn or Bottle supplement your regen.

You really don't need extra Cogs duration over maxing Rocket Flare. Remember Cogs' mana cost goes up, and you won't be able to support it that comfortably around level 10-11. You need more levels and more mana items.

I like max cogs 2nd against jugg and slark if the lane is going well. It makes them very sad to lose 200 mana during early midgame engagements when they often have mom/yasha and SB respectively.

DucK-

Singapore11447 Posts

March 29 2015 01:53 GMT

#131

I disagree with the necessity of treads/phase. I play with plain boots most of the times. I think that battery assault is enough to secure your kills. I'd rather get an earlier blade mail or force with that ~1k gold.

govie

9334 Posts

March 29 2015 02:43 GMT

#132

On March 29 2015 02:58 l3loodraven wrote:
euls is getting nerfed for sure so it would probably be wise to become familiar with other styles.

I think icefrog is more a buff-er then a nerf-er. If they change the goldincome/comebackmechanic, the euls will be nerfed on low farmpriority hero's just like all other 2k+ items. But for a roaming clockwerk after lvl 6/7, i think a change like that doesnt have a big impact.

l3loodraven

2753 Posts

March 29 2015 04:34 GMT

#133

yeah the euls nerf is not actually guaranteed (though it is warranted imo) but even as it is I still value force+bm more in most games.

Buckyman

1364 Posts

May 06 2015 00:24 GMT

#134

Since 6.84 I've been starting with a Mango. I believe this is a Big Deal because it means that when I hit 6 I can buy a TP at the side shop, use it, and still have enough mana for a hook->mango->full combo. Otherwise, I'd need to TP from fountain (delaying my first gank by 20+ seconds) or commit to a bottle (which I might not be able to farm after boots by 6 in a 1v2 or 1v3 lane).

Fencar

United States2694 Posts

May 06 2015 00:28 GMT

#135

Sounds extremely legit. I think you have money for mango+tango+salve+stout with starting 625 gold right?

l3loodraven

2753 Posts

May 06 2015 00:57 GMT

#136

mango tango lmao has icefrog gone too far!?

i dont see a reason to start off with a mango, you're more likely to need the extra tangoes to survive your lane, especially for radiant offlane. i would rather do the standard stout + salve + tangoes into boots.

from there you can decide on getting your bottle or the mango based on the pace of the game. the ability to tp and combo someone that early is definitely strong, but not always necessary because the opening isn't always going to be there, and bottle is always going to be a better investment in terms of keeping you on the map.

you can also just get robe of the magi after browns or bottle and build it into treads or blademail.

PoulsenB

Poland7711 Posts

May 06 2015 10:49 GMT

#137

Would the "cookie cutter" item build be like this?

stout+regen > brown boots > bottle/urn > treads/phase > blademail > forcestaff > aghs/other extension items

Also, is Halberd a good item on Clock? I bought it a couple of times when I had a good game and it felt really nice, especially against rightclickers.

Belisarius

Australia6230 Posts

May 06 2015 11:07 GMT

#138

Clock has no cookie cutter but that's probably close enough.

He's a fine halberd carrier if there's a hero you need to disarm. The extra bulk is a nice bonus but there are more efficient ways to get that if the active's not valuable.

DucK-

Singapore11447 Posts

May 06 2015 11:33 GMT

#139

Never understood players that skip bottle on offlane heroes. If you are having a relatively smooth time at offlane, you should get your bottle easily. If lane is expected to be hard, mango is an unnecessary 150 expense that doesn't provide much, and I would rather just save the gold for quicker boots/bottle. The whole enough mana for combo does not justify a preemptive mango purchase.

You should aim/hope to get bottle + plain boots by level 6. From there, its between force or/and blade mail depending on circumstances. Then if necessary you get bkb. Otherwise you can get agha Shivas orchid halberd pipe diffusal depending on situation. Since new patch, you may even want lotus, though I haven't really figured when's a good time to get one yet.

Don't follow pro players and their shitty builds such as treads or mjolnir. Don't delay your items by wasting 950 to upgrade boots. Get an ogre axe instead, or point booster. Clock doesn't need upgraded boots. Only possible useful boots is phase, but that's for solo mid.

Fencar

United States2694 Posts

May 06 2015 12:25 GMT

#140

It's worth noting that with treads you get a decent amount more mana from bottling with tread switching than you would otherwise, and the +aspd helps get solo kills a bit faster as well.

DucK-

Singapore11447 Posts

May 06 2015 13:53 GMT

#141

On May 06 2015 21:25 Fencar wrote:
It's worth noting that with treads you get a decent amount more mana from bottling with tread switching than you would otherwise, and the +aspd helps get solo kills a bit faster as well.

Your full combo should be able to net you kills without much right clicks. Or if you are so concerned with boosting your solo kill potential, buy an urn instead. The whole tread switching efficiency has its merits, but for a hero designed around his ult CD, you don't really gain much for the efficency. Its also not like you're a flash farmer (QoP etc) where you're constantly using your spells to farm/push waves.

The statistical benefit you gain from treads is so insignificant for a hero like clock, compared to the mechanical benefits of getting your core items earlier.

It is 2015, and so many players still worship treads as though it is a powerful item. It is a waste of gold on majority of heroes except carries. Tread switching is overvalued, and really the main reason to get it is for the attack speed. You don't even have greater MS than plain boots.

PoulsenB

Poland7711 Posts

May 06 2015 13:56 GMT

#142

Now I have a dilemma, should I believe TheYango and buy treads/phase, or DucK and stay on brown boots x]

DucK-

Singapore11447 Posts

May 06 2015 14:19 GMT

#143

On May 06 2015 22:56 PoulsenB wrote:
Now I have a dilemma, should I believe TheYango and buy treads/phase, or DucK and stay on brown boots x]

It is simple really. Are you a hero that gets farm easily? If you are not, then don't even bother getting treads.

PoulsenB

Poland7711 Posts

May 06 2015 14:30 GMT

#144

Fair enough. I'll try the "treadless" approach and see how it feels. Should I rush blademail/force staff right after bottle, or can I throw in a casual point booster in between?

DucK-

Singapore11447 Posts

May 06 2015 14:40 GMT

#145

On May 06 2015 23:30 PoulsenB wrote:
Fair enough. I'll try the "treadless" approach and see how it feels. Should I rush blademail/force staff right after bottle, or can I throw in a casual point booster in between?

Depends on whether you really need the extra HP/MP. Judge it yourself. I generally don't see a need for it.

Fencar

United States2694 Posts

May 06 2015 15:03 GMT

#146

With how fast the tempo of the game is in 6.84 I think that the +9 to a stat is more useful than you give it credit for. Blademail, force staff, and aghs are really good items but if you don't desperately need them I don't see how getting treads is nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

It's very game dependent, but I think that in more drawn out engagements treads can be very useful to get a second round of battery assaults, rocket flares, and cogs off, and get more out of your bottle (and sometimes wand) regen when disengaging. I think that with maxed battery assault farming a camp or two in the jungle is also doable with Clock, although it's obviously very difficult to farm stacks, and treads help you both farm it faster and give you the mana to do so without having to choose between having mana for your combo or farming the jungle.

DucK-

Singapore11447 Posts

May 06 2015 15:13 GMT

#147

On May 07 2015 00:03 Fencar wrote:
With how fast the tempo of the game is in 6.84 I think that the +9 to a stat is more useful than you give it credit for. Blademail, force staff, and aghs are really good items but if you don't desperately need them I don't see how getting treads is nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

It's very game dependent, but I think that in more drawn out engagements treads can be very useful to get a second round of battery assaults, rocket flares, and cogs off, and get more out of your bottle (and sometimes wand) regen when disengaging. I think that with maxed battery assault farming a camp or two in the jungle is also doable with Clock, although it's obviously very difficult to farm stacks, and treads help you both farm it faster and give you the mana to do so without having to choose between having mana for your combo or farming the jungle.

Drop your Robe or Staff, use Bottle, pick them up to use spells. You get the same kind of efficiency you are looking for without wasting gold.

Thetwinmasters

3578 Posts

May 06 2015 16:00 GMT

#148

Honestly imo the only boots u should consider on clock over brown is tranqs and that is only if ur lane is super ebola to face

DucK-

Singapore11447 Posts

May 06 2015 16:21 GMT

#149

On May 07 2015 01:00 Thetwinmasters wrote:
Honestly imo the only boots u should consider on clock over brown is tranqs and that is only if ur lane is super ebola to face

I do see merit in getting Arcanes if you are going Mek for the team though, depends on the timing of the Mek.

NasKe_

Brazil570 Posts

May 06 2015 20:46 GMT

#150

On May 07 2015 01:21 DucK- wrote:

Show nested quote +

I do see merit in getting Arcanes if you are going Mek for the team though, depends on the timing of the Mek.

I usually go Arcanes/Mek on my 3k mmr games, I was wondering if Guardian Greaves would be legit, maybe after BladeMail/Aghs.

Belisarius

Australia6230 Posts

May 06 2015 21:23 GMT

#151

On May 06 2015 22:56 PoulsenB wrote:
Now I have a dilemma, should I believe TheYango and buy treads/phase, or DucK and stay on brown boots x]

It's worth pointing out that duck has some weird-ass ideas on an awful lot of heroes. Try his approach and see if it works for you, but it's not exactly standard play.

Treads and phase give a lot of utility, and create kill opportunities that wouldn't exist without them. Clock is hero who builds all 5 different boot types situationally.

DucK-

Singapore11447 Posts

May 07 2015 00:18 GMT

#152

On May 07 2015 06:23 Belisarius wrote:

Show nested quote +

True for phase but not true for treads. Rationale being that all treads provide over brown boots is statistical benefits. How can you outplay without any mechanical benefits, such as phasing from phase boots or other actives. You're just relying on stats, of which clock doesn't really need due to his skill set and that you could get them from other items.

I dare say that most kills you could have gotten with treads can be gotten without. Maybe there are scenarios where that extra AS would play a part, but the nature of clocks skill set means these are slim scenarios that does not justify throwing previous 950 away.

DucK-

Singapore11447 Posts

May 07 2015 00:21 GMT

#153

On May 07 2015 05:46 NasKe_ wrote:

Show nested quote +

I usually go Arcanes/Mek on my 3k mmr games, I was wondering if Guardian Greaves would be legit, maybe after BladeMail/Aghs.

You have to ask yourself why you are getting so much defensive items though. They're not really necessary on clock to be gotten all the time. The bad thing about greaves is how unimpressive it is when rushed. But you can't really treat it as a slot saver since BoTs would be more important then.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

May 07 2015 00:40 GMT

#154

Honestly, having Arcanes and Mek CD lumped together on Greaves is actually an annoyance for a large portion of the game because you don't want to put Mek on CD just to give yourself/other people mana.

Usually I only feel comfortable with the upgrade once the mana starts being less critical because late-game stats start to cover mana needs comfortably enough.

govie

9334 Posts

May 07 2015 10:21 GMT

#155

I think that the biggest dilemma isnt boots of choice but at which timing you aim for. Now you have the choice between lotusorb/blademail & TQ's/GG's/PB's/PT's/bots & New medicore items/forcestaff/euls & more expensive items to choose from. Until proven otherwise i'd say gaurdian greeves is the best boot in the game by far in 90% of pubgames, but only very late to make some inventory space.

I personally still like aiming for the earlygame: TQ>wand>blademail>euls>aghs and if i were to play clockwerk aiming at a later timing then i assume my item buildup would be : manaboots>mek>lotus orb>pipe>aghs>shiva's>gaurdian greeves>sheepstick
The reason why i think this would be a nice mid/lategame itembuild for me, is that lotus orb reflects the spell and the damage but the pipe negates my own damage taken, those two items seem to be made for eachother but also a bit expensive (theorycrafted, but not tested yet).

ahswtini

Northern Ireland22208 Posts

May 07 2015 10:25 GMT

#156

pipe seems like a super situational item to me though, on any hero

govie

9334 Posts

May 07 2015 10:46 GMT

#157

Initially i too wasn’t impressed, but the changes could be quite significant. Semi null field aura and bigger aoe which stacks multiplicatively with other items and nullfield aura (einstein must have invented that complicated word).

Edit:
- oh and you cant break or purge the pipe active, so that is pretty huge in the current meta of break, yes i think pipe is fine now.
- When you draft clockwerk, try to get a pos4 pugna if it fits the drafts. The combo with decripfy is nice, the pugna ultimate can heal you inside the cogs, netherward is disgusting if you cant move away from it (damage is reflected before the spell is cast, which saves hero's). And when clockwerk decides to roam, pugna can certainly spend that extra gold effectively (i.e. necro1).

GtC

United States546 Posts

May 08 2015 06:50 GMT

#158

I really like the armor tranqs give on clock, especially since without it I always feel really squishy and melt once I initiate.

DucK-

Singapore11447 Posts

May 08 2015 08:14 GMT

#159

On May 08 2015 15:50 GtC wrote:
I really like the armor tranqs give on clock, especially since without it I always feel really squishy and melt once I initiate.

Chain mail, unless you're not going bm.

Tranquil is typically gotten when you skip bottle.

Nerfed

Russian Federation1132 Posts

May 08 2015 08:51 GMT

#160

I can see the rationale of not getting boots upgraded if you go straight point booster. But lately i prefer getting tranquils and then going blademail or force staff w/o bottle since tranquils are tier1 item during first 15 mins for clock. On the lane it gives you everything you want - if you are facing strong dual/tri lane you can get occasional creep kills, and when i go to the really hard lane i prefer having ring of protection in my starting item build. And if the opposing lane is not strong then tranquils enable you to farm and to zone and go for a kill on a support. Clock, as well as Axe and BB, are very strong vs supports and the weak dual lanes when you outlevel them. On your level 4-5 you could often be able to kill a support or to force him go to base since you will have tranquils+stout and support will be lvl 3 sometimes w/o boots if you messed with their pulls by either blocking or stealing exp and preventing double pulls and stacked pulls - easier to do if you are on Dire side since there is an imba ward spot which lets you see pull + upper woods area wich never gets devarded in my games (solo or team 3-4k).

evanthebouncy!

United States12796 Posts

May 08 2015 18:19 GMT

#161

Since the stout shield nerf, I've been buying ring for start instea, and making a basi.
I leave brown boot and use bottle. I'm not sure if this is optimal or is stout still legit

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

May 08 2015 19:02 GMT

#162

Stout is still vastly better against creep damage, which matters a lot. Vs hero damage it depends but Clock has low base armor for an offlane melee, which favors Ring a little bit.

evanthebouncy!

United States12796 Posts

May 19 2015 19:56 GMT

#163

how do you guys do the combo?
hook cog battery or hook battery cog?

I actually hate clock's casting animation it never feels smooth...

Wala.Revolution

7582 Posts

May 19 2015 19:59 GMT

#164

Depends on situation. You can also battery before hooking in.

ahswtini

Northern Ireland22208 Posts

May 19 2015 20:04 GMT

#165

depends on wat ur cogs are supposed to do. u can hook into a target, move back and cogs to push them into your team, and block his team off from him. or you can just do a straight forward cog trap.

Belisarius

Australia6230 Posts

May 19 2015 22:07 GMT

#166

I think the question is: assuming you are doing a straightforward cog trap, can you hook->battery->cog and still guarantee a trap?

Since hook stun is 1s(/1.5/2) and both battery and cog have 0.3s cast times, I'm pretty sure the answer is yes.

If you're trying to do something else like zone with cog it will obviously depend, but you might not even use battery in some of those cases.

Buckyman

1364 Posts

May 27 2015 15:08 GMT

#167

How do y'all feel about giving the Aegis to Clockwerk?

BluemoonSC

SoCal8910 Posts

May 27 2015 15:13 GMT

#168

with an agh's he's probably a great aegis carrier. but I think it also requires you to be a really good clockwork and know how to use your cogs to get the most out of your team fights. that way even if you're the first in and get focused, the rest of your team is able to beat down the split up enemy

but it really depends on what other heroes are on your team too.

ahswtini

Northern Ireland22208 Posts

May 27 2015 15:15 GMT

#169

depends on who the other 4 members of the team are and how farmed they are. it's not like he normally outputs a load of damage so i dont see what giving him two lives will really accomplish

Fencar

United States2694 Posts

May 27 2015 15:17 GMT

#170

Well he has one round of spells, and then unless you have aghs, that's your main contribution to any fights. Aegis doesn't help with that so much, and if you're sieging high ground, sending Clockwerk to go hit the tower and sort of tank the initial wave of spells won't work very well either because of his complete lack of physical damage.

I don't think it's nearly as good as putting the aegis on something like a Timber, Storm, TA, etc., who can contribute in huge ways to fights after the initial round of spells goes off.

BluemoonSC

SoCal8910 Posts

May 27 2015 16:18 GMT

#171

plus, those are the kinds of heroes you draft with someone like a clock too.

i think there's merit to getting two rounds of spells off during a fight though..but the odds that he's the highest dmg dealer on your team

Buckyman

1364 Posts

May 27 2015 17:05 GMT

#172

Ok, so what should a fight plan look like with Aegis?

Life 1: Hook in, drop a teambuster cogs that isolates one or two of them with your team, Blade Mail, right clicks until you die or the cogs fall.
Life 2: Aghs Hook, Battery Assault and Cogs as it comes off cooldown to secure a pickoff during the disengage.

BluemoonSC

SoCal8910 Posts

May 27 2015 20:42 GMT

#173

i feel like that would be a wise plan. it depends on how much burst they have and whether or not that coincides with your cog CD.

but i think all of this implies that you have outrageously good position at a choke point during a 5v5 engagement which requires a lot from you and both teams.

Buckyman

1364 Posts

May 28 2015 03:10 GMT

#174

On May 28 2015 05:42 BluemoonSC wrote:but i think all of this implies that you have outrageously good position at a choke point during a 5v5 engagement which requires a lot from you and both teams.

Point by point
5v5 - You do need your team to 5-man with the aegis. The other team doesn't need to be present as 5, but if they show less than 3 it doesn't matter who the aegis is on, the first hook generally wins the fight.
Choke point - In my experience, a full choke point helps, but a teambuster is sometimes possible if there's an obstruction on only one side, if the cogs are placed right and the enemy team isn't specifically positioning against it. However, there happen to be good choke points near several towers including (if you're feeling insane or have an aegis) the front steps of the enemy base.
Outrageously good positioning - You need to be able to hook the second or third farthest enemy around the first. That does require good positioning, but not exceptionally so.

But all this applies to playing Clockwerk in general during the late game, not just when Clockwerk has an Aegis.

BluemoonSC

SoCal8910 Posts

May 28 2015 13:27 GMT

#175

it absolutely applies all the time to clock, but if you're going to be the one taking the aegis instead of a bigger dmg dealer or something, I think its even more important that your positioning be absolutely perfect or else you would probably be better off passing the aegis to someone that can do more with 2 lives.

Buckyman

1364 Posts

May 29 2015 00:08 GMT

#176

I should mention that the question was prompted by a game where my team took Rosh and there was some discussion over whether Clockwerk or Death Prophet should take the aegis. (We had a carry but couldn't give it to her, and everyone agreed the support Sand King shouldn't get it).

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

May 29 2015 01:07 GMT

#177

If you're winning, DP is a clear winner there because you can use Exorcism to siege towers much more safely if you have Aegis (they can't really just initiate onto her since she'll just eat the first round of spells and your team will counter-engage and win).

Saechiis

Netherlands4989 Posts

June 03 2015 22:56 GMT

#178

Is it worth solo smoking to get your first lvl 6 gank off? Or any time for that matter? Smokes usually stay untouched at my level anyways (3,5k) but I'm wondering whether that becomes a bad play scaling up the ranks.

DucK-

Singapore11447 Posts

June 03 2015 23:36 GMT

#179

On June 04 2015 07:56 Saechiis wrote:
Is it worth solo smoking to get your first lvl 6 gank off? Or any time for that matter? Smokes usually stay untouched at my level anyways (3,5k) but I'm wandering whether that becomes a bad play scaling up the ranks.

At that level team smokes are probably hardly used anyway. So go ahead and solo smoke for any hero.

Xxazn4lyfe51xX

United States976 Posts

June 03 2015 23:39 GMT

#180

Even up until 4.5k maybe even 5k, solo smoking for your level 6 pickoff is probably worth it if you can get a key hero. Their mid, for example. It probably won't be until much higher level play when: a. That one smoke might have been put to better use, and b. Solo smoking your offlane clockwork isn't going to reliably get you a kill.

Saechiis

Netherlands4989 Posts

June 04 2015 00:04 GMT

#181

Also, how do you deal with opponents that just keep spamming out the lane? I usually want to leave my lane to gank at 6 and whenever hook is up from then onwards, but leaving the lane is going to be super obvious and probably result in rip tower.

DucK-

Singapore11447 Posts

June 04 2015 00:36 GMT

#182

On June 04 2015 09:04 Saechiis wrote:
Also, how do you deal with opponents that just keep spamming out the lane? I usually want to leave my lane to gank at 6 and whenever hook is up from then onwards, but leaving the lane is going to be super obvious and probably result in rip tower.

You ask 1 support to soak up the exp at that lane. Or if that said lane has a weak carry like sniper and likely to have no supports protecting him (because they are present elsewhere), you just solo kill him, then farm the lane.

Swagtastic

11 Posts

June 26 2015 19:57 GMT

#183

Just learned today that apparently u can "miss" the attack on ur cogs resulting in trapped for the near full duration how awesome, guess your supposed to go mkb kappa.

User was warned for this post

Sn0_Man

Tebellong44238 Posts

June 26 2015 20:10 GMT

#184

I mean you can only miss if you are blinded
yes its very annoying vs a tinker but its pretty fringe too

the bear jew

United States3674 Posts

June 26 2015 21:10 GMT

#185

On June 27 2015 05:10 Sn0_Man wrote:
I mean you can only miss if you are blinded
yes its very annoying vs a tinker but its pretty fringe too

Obviously the new build on clock is to go Radiance and keep them in the cogs through blind.

MirageTaN

Singapore871 Posts

June 27 2015 07:18 GMT

#186

LOL , why not heavens halberd they cant hit u and they cant hit the cogs

MirageTaN

Singapore871 Posts

June 27 2015 07:27 GMT

#187

I think that clock werks well with farm orientated lineups that are strongest in the mid-game like invoker and Wisp+1

MirageTaN

Singapore871 Posts

June 27 2015 08:32 GMT

#188

honestly, I think that threads on this hero, unless you are mid-lane, is quite useless. I am a sub 4k player with more than 300 games on clock and it is safe to say that my preferred boots is either tranquils or phase and (god I hate to say this but arcane because of how good greeves are on clock). For dealing with HP issues I usually get wand and urn if I am doing badly. But if you are doing well , I see no point but to rush an ags(that is if you are really balling from the get-go) if not blademail into forcestaff is really good. However I never, I REPEAT, ALMOST NEVER GET FORCESTAFF INTO BLADEMAIL. Blademail is a timing item and it is best b4 20mins(that is the usual timing heros get their BKBs) so judge your timings well to purchase certain items.
Everyone has been getting on my ass about ags as my 3rd item but why? having a 12 sec 300dmg cross-map nuke does seem good in theory but don't be afraid to experiment with items like Maelstorm, necrobook, BKB, and my personal favorite, ghost secpter/Shivas. I usually get forcestaff as it is a must! Like the whole point of picking a clockwerk is to kite enemy carries. U hook them , place your cogs in a disruptive manner and isolate the carries while you forcestaff away to safety to await cooldowns, that is what I mainly do in teamfights. Of course if there is any supports that are out of position, you hook them and kill them off with ur team and then force into their carry and cogs them and force their bkbs and then ghost secpter

Fencar

United States2694 Posts

June 27 2015 09:13 GMT

#189

I didn't mean to imply that I was getting force staff>blademail.

GentleDrill

United Kingdom672 Posts

June 27 2015 10:54 GMT

#190

I find it a bit weird that you say Treads are bad on Clock but then advocate for Maelstrom as a situational item.

the bear jew

United States3674 Posts

June 27 2015 12:21 GMT

#191

On June 27 2015 16:18 MirageTaN wrote:
LOL , why not heavens halberd they cant hit u and they cant hit the cogs

It was a joke. And halberd can be a very legit pick up later. Radiance only if you are trolling/ridiculously ahead and about to win.

Buckyman

1364 Posts

July 27 2015 04:54 GMT

#192

How do y'all feel about Blink Dagger on Clockwerk? It appears to be fairly rare in the wild (~1 game in 50) but gives him a lot of tactical options, particularly against heroes who can escape cogs. Consider a few cases.

Solo ganking an underleveled support farming an exposed lane. Without blink: Hook, cog, battery assault. Easy kill provided you can hit a hook, 60/45 seconds of downtime afterwards depending on ult level. With blink: Blink, cog, battery assault. Even easier kill, 10 seconds of downtime afterwards.

Going on an isolated Mirana whose ult is down. Without blink: Lurk in the shadows and hope she leaps while you have vision, then hook her. With blink: Blink in and bait a leap out, then hook back in on her.

Late-game teamfight initiation, where your goal is to isolate a couple of heroes using cogs. Without blink: You rely on a tricky skillshot that also requires good positioning, since you need to hook past another hero and often only have a narrow time window. With blink: You can either use the blink to fix bad positioning, or skip the skillshot entirely with a blink-in cog drop.

So is it often worth getting instead of Force Staff, or delaying an aghs?

DucK-

Singapore11447 Posts

July 27 2015 05:30 GMT

#193

On July 27 2015 13:54 Buckyman wrote:
How do y'all feel about Blink Dagger on Clockwerk? It appears to be fairly rare in the wild (~1 game in 50) but gives him a lot of tactical options, particularly against heroes who can escape cogs. Consider a few cases.

Solo ganking an underleveled support farming an exposed lane. Without blink: Hook, cog, battery assault. Easy kill provided you can hit a hook, 60/45 seconds of downtime afterwards depending on ult level. With blink: Blink, cog, battery assault. Even easier kill, 10 seconds of downtime afterwards.

Going on an isolated Mirana whose ult is down. Without blink: Lurk in the shadows and hope she leaps while you have vision, then hook her. With blink: Blink in and bait a leap out, then hook back in on her.

Late-game teamfight initiation, where your goal is to isolate a couple of heroes using cogs. Without blink: You rely on a tricky skillshot that also requires good positioning, since you need to hook past another hero and often only have a narrow time window. With blink: You can either use the blink to fix bad positioning, or skip the skillshot entirely with a blink-in cog drop.

So is it often worth getting instead of Force Staff, or delaying an aghs?

Not worth getting it instead of Force Staff. Agha or Blinkr depends on game, although you would lean more towards to Agha. That said, Blink is not bad on Clock. You just wouldn't want to get it too early.

Anyway you shouldn't be looking at Blink from the solo killing perspective, because by the time you consider Blink, your role becomes more towards disrupting in teamfights.

Fencar

United States2694 Posts

July 27 2015 13:46 GMT

#194

Just weigh the potential of a blink against the other items you could buy, like force, blademail, ghost scepter, against the enemy teamcomp. If you think blink is better, go for it!

BluemoonSC

SoCal8910 Posts

July 27 2015 14:58 GMT

#195

yeah i personally think that force staff is much better on clock because you can hook in, lock someone in cogs, and force yourself out.

Surprise.820

United Kingdom1276 Posts

July 27 2015 15:17 GMT

#196

There's also this cool info which is pretty cool to do with Force Staff versus highly mobile heroes:

http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/2pbcow/a_clockwerk_maneuver_against_heroes_with_escapes/

DucK-

Singapore11447 Posts

July 27 2015 15:49 GMT

#197

On July 28 2015 00:17 Surprise.820 wrote:
There's also this cool info which is pretty cool to do with Force Staff versus highly mobile heroes:

http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/2pbcow/a_clockwerk_maneuver_against_heroes_with_escapes/

Thanks for sharing. Interesting move. Gotta practise it a little.

BluemoonSC

SoCal8910 Posts

July 27 2015 15:49 GMT

#198

against a hero like void with a low mana pool, that's a fantastic trick!

thats basically clock's goal endgame anyway..just hook in and use the cogs to disrupt the enemy team's positioning..this is just a great trick to make a void real salty tho..he wont be able to chrono!

Surprise.820

United Kingdom1276 Posts

July 27 2015 20:54 GMT

#199

Boen7 is still boen7 but lvl 12/13 spawn times doing that shit was great.

Still did fucking awful mid-game tho.

Buckyman

1364 Posts

August 06 2015 06:27 GMT

#200

On July 27 2015 13:54 Buckyman wrote:Blink in and bait a leap out, then hook back in on her.

Independently of Blink's merits, I consider this tactic to be of high importance. Against heroes with escapes, I now try to get on top of them without committing hook or cogs, then hook them after the escape ability to finish the kill.

ToastedBagel

Canada90 Posts

December 17 2015 09:06 GMT

#201

Was there a specific reason for the cog change? It seems like a nerf to me, since you get a smaller cog aoe to break up the enemy team. Also, positioning to poke people with the corners was fun...

GinNtoniC

Sweden2945 Posts

December 17 2015 09:49 GMT

#202

Hard to say yet. It doesn't mess up teamfights as much, but that's both good and bad.

Sceptre

Canada130 Posts

December 17 2015 16:22 GMT

#203

I've tried it out in a few games, it felt harder than normal to trap people in my cogs but I could just be crazy. People on reddit were saying it helps catch the whole creep wave when trying to block, and that it might lead to more cog collisions overall.

Definitely a weird change, that's for sure.

Sn0_Man

Tebellong44238 Posts

December 17 2015 16:29 GMT

#204

You'll get more consistent behaviour trying to trap people in cogs as well as push them out now. Slightly lower skill cap i'd imagine though.
Basically it's easier to catch them if they are above/below/beside you, but harder if they are diagonal to you, i believe.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

December 17 2015 18:05 GMT

#205

There were also some weird pathing issues where sometimes opening a diagonal Cog would let someone walk out and sometimes it wouldn't, and now it just always works the same.

Pontual

Brazil3038 Posts

November 01 2016 16:37 GMT

#206

Clock is being picked again on pro scene. But only pos 4. Why? I see this hero as a strong offlaner still. Plus does the pos 4 clock builds differently? both items and levels.
I would rate clock as a tier 2 offlane pick.

babysimba

10466 Posts

November 01 2016 17:00 GMT

#207

Became viable because of windlace. Go try it, roamer clock is seriously legit.

He's like the anti-roamer roamer. Nobody dares to mess with you outside of lane creeps, which also means easy rune control as bonus. Cogs hold the hero you are ganking in place as long as kunkka's x mark.

You have the ability to solo kill majority of the cores even with just the networth of a support. The way to deal with forcestaffs is to get blink or forcestaff yourself. Initiate with blink, then hook to chase the forcestaffed hero. Or hook, then use forcestaff to chase.

Personally, i get arcanes for team utility and also to spam battery assault for farming camps. Blademail is first core item. Then an optional midas if I know i can get my next item blink/fs before the enemy has fs, if not just skip the midas and just get blink/fs.

Pontual

Brazil3038 Posts

November 01 2016 17:25 GMT

#208

On November 02 2016 02:00 babysimba wrote:
Became viable because of windlace. Go try it, roamer clock is seriously legit.

He's like the anti-roamer roamer. Nobody dares to mess with you outside of lane creeps, which also means easy rune control as bonus. Cogs hold the hero you are ganking in place as long as kunkka's x mark.

You have the ability to solo kill majority of the cores even with just the networth of a support. The way to deal with forcestaffs is to get blink or forcestaff yourself. Initiate with blink, then hook to chase the forcestaffed hero. Or hook, then use forcestaff to chase.

Personally, i get arcanes for team utility and also to spam battery assault for farming camps. Blademail is first core item. Then an optional midas if I know i can get my next item blink/fs before the enemy has fs, if not just skip the midas and just get blink/fs.

Thanks for the tip, seems really strong and fun, definetly going to try it out. As an offlane I'm thinking it's just because the rise of sand king and also lifestealer, but I also imagine clock might be a counter to them, just need blade mail. So I'm not sure, expecting to see more from clock to counter tinker and drow. Drow makes hurricane pike, but still can be killed if clock is not alone.

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