EPTGeneral Discussion - Page 5967
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yookstah
Australia655 Posts
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teddyoojo
Germany22369 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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teddyoojo
Germany22369 Posts
but who knows i think there will be a patch before the reshuffle is over anyway so | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
Yeah she could be a last-pick offlaner vs some greedy shit like SK/Lina support duo or some similar awful combo but that doesn't make her a good hero. In pubs the hero is probably OK. | ||
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makmeatt
2024 Posts
On July 24 2014 03:38 Sn0_Man wrote: In pubs the hero is probably OK. In pubs Phoenix is amazing, based on the irritation it induces in your lane opponents. At least in the trench, the general lack of BKBs and crowd control work definitely in its favor. On a side note, the more I read about the tournament as a whole, the more I agree with Yango about the unfortunate timing of the most recent batch of patches. Starting to wonder what will happen in the months to come. | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12270 Posts
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andyrau
13015 Posts
I mean it puts pressure on the towers, but that also renders her useless throughout early & midgame fights. she also takes away a lane of farm. and then with all that farm she's a pretty awful rightclicker so idek. you'd have base your entire draft around her and lastpick her in hopes that the other team doesn't blindly counterpick, which is pretty easy to do. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On July 24 2014 03:46 Excalibur_Z wrote: Brood can definitely be picked, but she'd have to be a 5th pick I think. She's too easily countered by heroes like Bounty Hunter, Axe, even Necro. Niche picks in their own right, but they can really shut her down hard and you can't afford to have her counterpicked like that. Well the thing too I suppose is the threat of the pick more so than the actual pick in a sense (and this would probably apply to Phoenix as well I suppose). If you ban someone like BM, even later on, you're probably giving the other team a good pick (since it's BM after all), but if she fits well as a pick it could be dangerous for you so maybe you rethink earlier parts of your drafts to avoid that situation? Also for Phoenix what is she weak too from Rubick other than follow up stuns or just general 'being disabled'? I know there's a weakness in the sense of targetted abilities hitting her during dive, but that seems similar to say Dark Seer with Surge. She seems like she could do reasonable against lineups that don't feature a combo of stuns from the duo (like ones that use AA) or maybe against aggressive tri-lanes where you can give her a 1v1 offlane. I feel like Tranquil boots being core on Phoenix is also a big help to her offlane viability (start with RoP and if she secures enough farm for the full tranquil she becomes hard to kill due to high move speed). | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On July 24 2014 03:38 Sn0_Man wrote: Phoenix can't offlane against a sizeable subset of heroes (silencer/rubick/skywrath, off the top of my head), is a waste of a mid hero in pretty much all competitive contexts, and needs levels incredibly badly. Plus pheonix achieves actually nothing by himself, barring laning strength. There are just so many things wrong with the hero and the upside is decent damage which is available from better supports, better offlaners, and better mids. Yeah she could be a last-pick offlaner vs some greedy shit like SK/Lina support duo or some similar awful combo but that doesn't make her a good hero. In pubs the hero is probably OK. ? You can literally run any hero in the game offlane in this patch. The question is how much farm do they require, can they get it from the jungle, and how survivable are they. Phoenix doesn't require much farm, can't really farm the jungle (negligible), and has a good escape. I don't see how this hero wouldn't be picked. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 24 2014 04:03 Comeh wrote: ? You can literally run any hero in the game offlane in this patch. The question is how much farm do they require, can they get it from the jungle, and how survivable are they. Phoenix doesn't require much farm, can't really farm the jungle (negligible), and has a good escape. I don't see how this hero wouldn't be picked. I think he is just saying that the hero has some strong counter picks and doesn’t do shit on his/her/its own. The hero is amazing is pubs, but everyone is retarded in pubs and doesn’t know that if you click the egg you get a kill. The question you need to ask about firebird is this “Does it bring more to the table than tide hunter in the offlane?” But I am all about more natural mek carriers for sure. | ||
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United States7542 Posts
On July 24 2014 04:09 Plansix wrote: I think he is just saying that the hero has some strong counter picks and doesn’t do shit on his/her/its own. The hero is amazing is pubs, but everyone is retarded in pubs and doesn’t know that if you click the egg you get a kill. The question you need to ask about firebird is this “Does it bring more to the table than tide hunter in the offlane?” But I am all about more natural mek carriers for sure. An advantage egg wise in comp dota is a lot of the heroes that are well suited to clicking down an egg (high mobility heroes and ranged carries with good attack speed) aren't really what you see pick wise necessarily, or at least some teams are ok forgoing them. Plus blink dagger isn't a very reliable jump in vs egg necessarily either given egg's large range. Well there's some of it in FV and alchemist is good if he can get to the egg, but I don't know... a lot of heroes can have trouble getting in on an egg if it's positioned defensively given its huge range (i.e focus on trapping 1-2 targets on the egg and use the distance + damage to isolate that target rather than going for 5 man egg blasts). Plus there's obvious stuff like Brewmaster being useless vs the egg after split (mechanics question, will the Egg stun Earth Panda?). Even just pre-11 it's not like using Egg to refresh abilities & cover allies is that terrible since Phoenix's other abilities are really impactful at that point. It's obviously no Ravage, or Lasso, but there's arguably a little more there in regular skills early on (not to mention those heroes being banned/picked). (I'm obviously biased towards Phoenix though so who knows). | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
But the biggest thing for competitive is probably sunray. That spell is amazing. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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makmeatt
2024 Posts
On July 24 2014 04:48 Plansix wrote: I don't think Firebird is any harder to gank than PotM(pre six). I mean, if you chain stun her stupid bird face, she is done. And in most pro games, thats how ganks work out. You don't gank PotM, PotM ganks you. If someone has slow fingers with one hero, chances are he will have them still when playing the other. I'm pretty sure that Phoenix's flight (one way) is longer than the leap distance too. | ||
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Jinxed
United States6450 Posts
On July 24 2014 04:48 Plansix wrote: I don't think Firebird is any harder to gank than PotM(pre six). I mean, if you chain stun her stupid bird face, she is done. And in most pro games, thats how ganks work out. Lol, yeah. Nevermind the fact that Phoenix's dive goes 1400 range and she gains 2.9 strength per level. I'm sure it's just as simple. Also it won't matter. The reason Phoenix will be picked is because of her ability to fit into the 3 or 4 role depending on what the team wants out of her. She's still incredibly mobile, with an absurd amount of damage and good counterpush and amazing teamfight. Hell you can even farm jungle stacks with her at level 3. Top pick/ban material most likely especially with all the teamfight and tanky cores we are seeing. EDIT: Also remember for Brood that until she was gutted she was 1st ban material. She's only gotten better since that time. She will still continue to be an immovable object in lane and that alone will get her some play. | ||
dravernor
Netherlands6192 Posts
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On July 24 2014 05:55 dravernor wrote: TIL I am not meant to be a sf player. But that was fun regardless. Probably should stick to heroes where 900 ping is acceptable. Like DP. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On July 24 2014 05:17 makmeatt wrote: You don't gank PotM, PotM ganks you. If someone has slow fingers with one hero, chances are he will have them still when playing the other. I'm pretty sure that Phoenix's flight (one way) is longer than the leap distance too. The thing about Phoenix's flight is it's slower (maybe?) and it also bucks out to the side a bit so initially you're not making all that much distance from your starting point in the direction you're ultimately trying to escape. Where this is important is having someone come from the side (say Dire bot lane someone coming from Radiant jungle) and your escape path being perpendicular to them (up towards your tower) you won't gain initial distance on them quickly giving them more time to get off a spell that interrupts dive. Even worse the Dive circles clockwise which on both lanes means you're bucking towards the incoming opponent. Also Dive doesn't disjoint and I'm not sure if the interactions with things like Ice Path are the same (if your dive takes you over ice path you are stunned, but if a Mirana leap is going to clear the Ice Path I'm not sure what happens). | ||
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