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IRC chatter should remain in IRC - http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=tl.dota2

Posts that relate to topics with their own thread, such as in News, Tournaments or Strategy should go in those threads.
Kipsate
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands45349 Posts
July 22 2014 15:14 GMT
#119101
I watched the Super bowl for the first time in my life this year as a European

That is what it must have felt like for a new dota fan watching the finals ;;
WriterXiao8~~
Talron
Profile Joined September 2012
Germany7651 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-22 15:23:00
July 22 2014 15:20 GMT
#119102
On July 22 2014 22:15 Unleashing wrote:
Valve should really make player pennants instead of team pennants.
Just have the ingame number be the number of team pennants + the number of player pennants for the team.

Because it's getting a bit tiresome to get a team pennant for a team and then they split after TI and you're left with a pennant for a team you no longer care about

Dunno man. I'm still proud of my ehome pennant.

also for new players watching yesterdays finals: A buddy of mine, who is a League player actually enjoyed it quite a lot, because of the high pace games.
EHOME 2010 never forget EHOME.GIGABYTE.AAA B-God In BurNing we trust BurNing your soul DK 2011-2014
teapoted
Profile Joined August 2012
United Kingdom24425 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-22 15:32:30
July 22 2014 15:25 GMT
#119103
On July 23 2014 00:04 Plansix wrote:
I think the problem is you have a lot of people putting input into what the system should be and sometimes the wrong idea wins out. Since they have never really done a progression system before in one of their games that isn’t WoW(which none of those systems should be applied Heroes in a progression system), they don’t really know what the “best system will be.”

Also, when your making a game, the main idea isn't to please everyone with the stuff you are testing. If everyone his happy and you’re just focused on pandering to them, it will likely lead to some lack luster choices. It’s likely better to try some sort of extreme system and see how people like it, or which part people like, rather than trying to guess what they want.

Day 9 said it in the interview about the game he was making. It far easier to go after the “low hanging fruit” but that’s not where the good design decisions are. Finding the stuff that people can really sink their teeth into and enjoy means you need to put in ideas that might not work and see why they don’t work. Assuming the outcome isn’t an option.
This system is low hanging fruit though.

It's what microsoft Clippy would do if you asked him "how do you make a modern multiplayer game?"

"It looks like you're trying to create a League of Legends clone, Would you like help?"
"It appears you're missing an annoying grindy progression system"

"But Clippy, I don't have time to make an interesting progression system that actually has some depth to it other than just being a blatant system to give people a goal and keep them from leaving the game"

"That's okay, we'll just add a system that raises a couple of percentages and doesn't have a major impact on game mechanics, but a big enough impact to where people feel they need those levels."
Once you Goblak...
cecek
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Czech Republic18921 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-22 15:36:41
July 22 2014 15:30 GMT
#119104
I think it's really simple. Blizzard know people will hate. But they also know that shit like this makes a lot of money. They think that the amount of extra money they will squeeze out of the players will outweigh the amount of potential players that will get turned off by the system and not play the game.

I think that's essentially it, there's nothing more to it.

According to reddit, the best part about TI4 was EUhub qualifier lounge stream. :D :D You can't make this shit up, seriously.
super gg
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-22 15:38:20
July 22 2014 15:36 GMT
#119105
But you can't buy gold, so you can't buy the progression items. You need to play to get them. It will just cause people to play the game more.

Also, Feedbolt is knee deep in Wildstar apparently. Dat Passion.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
crms
Profile Joined February 2010
United States11933 Posts
July 22 2014 15:40 GMT
#119106
On July 22 2014 23:55 Churrass wrote:
can you imagine if dota 2 was blizzard property ? dumb mechanics like that would be all over the place, i am glad they ignored dota for all these years, otherwise the game and the competitive scene would be a complete joke

its one of my favorite and most scary mental exercises to imagine dota 2 being made by blizzard. Ohhhh man, the horror.
http://i.imgur.com/fAUOr2c.png | Fighting games are great
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 22 2014 15:48 GMT
#119107
On July 23 2014 00:25 teapoted wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2014 00:04 Plansix wrote:
I think the problem is you have a lot of people putting input into what the system should be and sometimes the wrong idea wins out. Since they have never really done a progression system before in one of their games that isn’t WoW(which none of those systems should be applied Heroes in a progression system), they don’t really know what the “best system will be.”

Also, when your making a game, the main idea isn't to please everyone with the stuff you are testing. If everyone his happy and you’re just focused on pandering to them, it will likely lead to some lack luster choices. It’s likely better to try some sort of extreme system and see how people like it, or which part people like, rather than trying to guess what they want.

Day 9 said it in the interview about the game he was making. It far easier to go after the “low hanging fruit” but that’s not where the good design decisions are. Finding the stuff that people can really sink their teeth into and enjoy means you need to put in ideas that might not work and see why they don’t work. Assuming the outcome isn’t an option.
This system is low hanging fruit though.

It's what microsoft Clippy would do if you asked him "how do you make a modern multiplayer game?"

"It looks like you're trying to create a League of Legends clone, Would you like help?"
"It appears you're missing an annoying grindy progression system"

"But Clippy, I don't have time to make an interesting progression system that actually has some depth to it other than just being a blatant system to give people a goal and keep them from leaving the game"

"That's okay, we'll just add a system that raises a couple of percentages and doesn't have a major impact on game mechanics, but a big enough impact to where people feel they need those levels."

Yeah, that part I can't argue with. Maybe there are getting pressure from some business department to make it more like LoL, cause that shit makes da money and they are just doing that to show them "Look people really don't like that shit." We do the same stuff with my clients where we need to let them "touch the stove" so they can learn

On July 23 2014 00:14 Kipsate wrote:
I watched the Super bowl for the first time in my life this year as a European

That is what it must have felt like for a new dota fan watching the finals ;;


Confirmed. I had some friends over and never the noob stream was rough for them. At one point we just turned down the volume and I just answered questions. Also, the pennant numbers confused the fuck out of my buddy, who was convinced it was the gold level until he asked me why the number never moved. That and the mini map doesn't really show you where the camera is if you are sitting far away.

Its the stuff we never think about.

I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
teddyoojo
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Germany22369 Posts
July 22 2014 15:48 GMT
#119108
-bunker build time increased
Esports historian since 2000. Creator of 'The Universe' and 'The best scrambled Eggs 2013'. Host of 'Star Wars Marathon 2015'. Thinker of 'teddyoojo's Thoughts'. Earths and Moons leading CS:GO expert. Lord of the Rings.
teapoted
Profile Joined August 2012
United Kingdom24425 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-22 15:51:05
July 22 2014 15:50 GMT
#119109
On July 23 2014 00:48 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2014 00:25 teapoted wrote:
On July 23 2014 00:04 Plansix wrote:
I think the problem is you have a lot of people putting input into what the system should be and sometimes the wrong idea wins out. Since they have never really done a progression system before in one of their games that isn’t WoW(which none of those systems should be applied Heroes in a progression system), they don’t really know what the “best system will be.”

Also, when your making a game, the main idea isn't to please everyone with the stuff you are testing. If everyone his happy and you’re just focused on pandering to them, it will likely lead to some lack luster choices. It’s likely better to try some sort of extreme system and see how people like it, or which part people like, rather than trying to guess what they want.

Day 9 said it in the interview about the game he was making. It far easier to go after the “low hanging fruit” but that’s not where the good design decisions are. Finding the stuff that people can really sink their teeth into and enjoy means you need to put in ideas that might not work and see why they don’t work. Assuming the outcome isn’t an option.
This system is low hanging fruit though.

It's what microsoft Clippy would do if you asked him "how do you make a modern multiplayer game?"

"It looks like you're trying to create a League of Legends clone, Would you like help?"
"It appears you're missing an annoying grindy progression system"

"But Clippy, I don't have time to make an interesting progression system that actually has some depth to it other than just being a blatant system to give people a goal and keep them from leaving the game"

"That's okay, we'll just add a system that raises a couple of percentages and doesn't have a major impact on game mechanics, but a big enough impact to where people feel they need those levels."

Yeah, that part I can't argue with. Maybe there are getting pressure from some business department to make it more like LoL, cause that shit makes da money and they are just doing that to show them "Look people really don't like that shit." We do the same stuff with my clients where we need to let them "touch the stove" so they can learn
The amount of times I've said to a client "I'll do this but it's going to be bad" and then immediately change it afterwards.
Once you Goblak...
cecek
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Czech Republic18921 Posts
July 22 2014 15:54 GMT
#119110
I can't even decide if the fact that you can't buy gold to get the artifacts is worse or better than if you could. On one hand, it's annoying that someone can spend money to get an advantage over you, on the other hand it's annoying that you can't get around the bullshit grind by paying money. Not that it matters to me, both systems are exactly what I absolutely hate in games. I wouldn't be surprised if they made it possible to buy gold in the future, tho.
super gg
Fwizzz
Profile Joined May 2012
Philippines4420 Posts
July 22 2014 15:54 GMT
#119111
With TI already done, Im quite excited for the new patch and roster shuffles.
Targe
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom14103 Posts
July 22 2014 16:04 GMT
#119112
On July 23 2014 00:54 cecek wrote:
I can't even decide if the fact that you can't buy gold to get the artifacts is worse or better than if you could. On one hand, it's annoying that someone can spend money to get an advantage over you, on the other hand it's annoying that you can't get around the bullshit grind by paying money. Not that it matters to me, both systems are exactly what I absolutely hate in games. I wouldn't be surprised if they made it possible to buy gold in the future, tho.

it was the biggest turnoff for me about cod 4
11/5/14 CATACLYSM | The South West's worst Falco main
BurningSera
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Ireland19621 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-22 16:04:38
July 22 2014 16:04 GMT
#119113
i always link that nerfnow comic of comparing Riot Icefrog/Valve and Blizzard whenever I want to let people to know that what are they dealing with. I didnt spent a penny on blizzard since D3 and i never will do that in future

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
is 2017, stop being lame, fuck's sakes. 'Can't wait for the rise of the cakes and humanity's last stand tbqh.'
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
July 22 2014 16:10 GMT
#119114
On July 23 2014 00:54 Fwizzz wrote:
With TI already done, Im quite excited for the new patch and roster shuffles.


I am not but at the same time; I hope Blink Dagger gets nerfed
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
SKC
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil18828 Posts
July 22 2014 16:13 GMT
#119115
That comic is way overused and taken way too seriously, specially when people compare Blizzard and Dota.

Dota is great at "taking turns", forcing heroes by constantly buffing them and nerfing whathever is popular in the last patch. People just don't care about it because they don't play one character exclusivelly.

And Blizzard RTS' are basically "fight broken with broken" when compared to other RTS', where all races are often very similar and don't have unique broken characteristis like in Starcraft.

It's dumb to compare the way you should balance Dota and something like Starcraft and WoW.
BurningSera
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Ireland19621 Posts
July 22 2014 16:19 GMT
#119116
But the latest patches dont quite 'taking turns', we never get such a big pool of comepetitive picks in the history of dota, and even if you did get the top picks, you still dont get that much of advantage compared to the patches pre-2013.

While blizzard's way of balance is literally 'taking turns', so that they satisfy their customers in order to keep sucking their blood/money. 'Just keep playing and paying blizzard will buff us eventually!', which is certainly not the case in dota.

speaking of that, where is comeh's buff on morph in 2014 lol
is 2017, stop being lame, fuck's sakes. 'Can't wait for the rise of the cakes and humanity's last stand tbqh.'
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 22 2014 16:19 GMT
#119117
I wonder if they are going to change Razor after he got that buff to his STR gain that made him the brick shit house that he currently is. Or if people will just figure out a way to draft around him, but that is sort of hard in the middle lane.

I like blink dagger, but it does lead issues that require more wards than are available and makes smoke that much more powerful in the later game. The fact that the break distance for smoke is 1000 and the blink distance is at minimum 960(or 1200 if you click within 1200) is a little silly. It means that once blink daggers are online, it makes smoke ganks god like, since nothing breaks smoke ever, and if you do your opponent is face humping you.

But knowing Icefrog, he will likely do something we have never thought of like giving us 3 wards in a set or making smoke even weirder.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
SKC
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil18828 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-07-22 16:22:00
July 22 2014 16:20 GMT
#119118
On July 23 2014 01:19 BurningSera wrote:
But the latest patches dont quite 'taking turns', we never get such a big pool of comepetitive picks in the history of dota, and even if you did get the top picks, you still dont get that much of advantage compared to the patches pre-2013.

While blizzard's way of balance is literally 'taking turns', so that they satisfy their customers in order to keep sucking their blood/money. 'Just keep playing and paying blizzard will buff us eventually!', which is certainly not the case in dota.

speaking of that, where is comeh's buff on morph in 2014 lol

Curiously, that was mostly after that comic was made, so it's not even that relevant. IceFrog doesn't have the burden of having to balance the game so every hero is equally strong. It's far easier to fall into the trap of taking turns in buffs and nerfs if you have to.
zev318
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada4306 Posts
July 22 2014 16:23 GMT
#119119
On July 22 2014 23:10 Targe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2014 22:59 idonthinksobro wrote:
i think it is awful, i just read the blog post and what some of the runes do. I imagine that stuff roughly translates to dota there is a rune that gives you 40% more max mana and another one that gives you up to 1.0 mana regeneration. I don't even want to think about how insanely broken stuff would be in dota with runes like that.
A hero with max runes vs a hero without any runes should win everytime. Not even a contest, how can this be acceptable by anyones standards?

'its fair because everyone has the option to get all runes you just choose not to'


sounds like their wow raiding system. eventually they're just gonna give in and make some casual stuff
Targe
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom14103 Posts
July 22 2014 16:24 GMT
#119120
On July 23 2014 01:19 Plansix wrote:
I wonder if they are going to change Razor after he got that buff to his STR gain that made him the brick shit house that he currently is. Or if people will just figure out a way to draft around him, but that is sort of hard in the middle lane.

I like blink dagger, but it does lead issues that require more wards than are available and makes smoke that much more powerful in the later game. The fact that the break distance for smoke is 1000 and the blink distance is at minimum 960(or 1200 if you click within 1200) is a little silly. It means that once blink daggers are online, it makes smoke ganks god like, since nothing breaks smoke ever, and if you do your opponent is face humping you.

But knowing Icefrog, he will likely do something we have never thought of like giving us 3 wards in a set or making smoke even weirder.

the obvious answer to lategame smoke ganks is 'why arent my enemies on the map'
11/5/14 CATACLYSM | The South West's worst Falco main
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