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On May 12 2012 21:42 Pandepic wrote:
Paralleluniverse: Firstly stop using this ridiculous argument where you say "if Ursa is balanced then terran would never have been nerfed in Starcraft 2". Secondly, Dota 2 is a team based strategy game and thus it is balanced around team strategy, it is not balanced around individual carry heroes and how quickly they can kill someone that doesn't react to them being in the game and doesn't understand how the game works. Yes there are annoying heroes that can snowball quickly, but those same heroes can also be completely crushed and never go anywhere in the game, it depends -entirely on the players in the game- and NOT on the "hero balance".
Really could you just stop cluttering up the thread with your useless posts? You present no solid arguments or evidence, you just constantly reply to everything with "you're wrong because this happened in Starcraft 2" or "this is my opinion on balance so go watch some live pub games", that is not a real argument and it is not presenting evidence to back up your claims. If you come into a thread full of people that have played hundreds of games in Dota 2, and you yourself having little experience with the game, and then you make these wild claims about "large flaws in the design", you should either have some extremely good evidence to back up what you say, or you should just not post about it at all, because really it seems like you're just trying to argue for the sake of it and derail the thread.
It's not my argument. It's his: if something is counterable it's balanced. Don't change it. They should never have nerfed siege tanks, they were counterable.
No evidence? Here's some evidence for you.
Ursa
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vF6Y1.png)
Riki
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rj3gA.png)
Spectre
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9YKf0.png)
Overpowered. Not even the TvZ matchup was ever this imbalanced.
Also, derailing the thread? I suggest you read the thread title. This is a general discussion thread on DotA2. We're talking about DotA2, therefore it's on topic.
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The fact that you keep calling riki and ursa overpowered is hilarious, it shows that you are a pub-scrub with no ability to understand team, hero and item synergy.
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There seems to be increased talk about ways to beat Ursa in the last several posts, but this is all irrelevant. As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics.
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The problem with arguing balance like that, is that ursa gets more powerful the worse the opponents are. Obviously he will have high winrate, because there's less good players than bad players.
It's like looking at lothars and claiming it's imbalanced, because you will guarantee an escape vs like 75% of the playerbase.
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On May 12 2012 22:02 paralleluniverse wrote:
There seems to be increased talk about ways to beat Ursa in the last several posts, but this is all irrelevant. As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics.
Ok, troll confirmed
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You do realise posting "graphs" without any raw data or context on what they mean is pointless?
On May 12 2012 22:02 paralleluniverse wrote:
There seems to be increased talk about ways to beat Ursa in the last several posts, but this is all irrelevant. As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics.
Heroes unfortunately don't win games, it's mainly players. In pubs picks aren't really that relevant. You seem to be a person that thinks very highly of yourself.
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On May 12 2012 22:02 paralleluniverse wrote:
There seems to be increased talk about ways to beat Ursa in the last several posts, but this is all irrelevant. As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics.
And your opinions and 'statistics' are irrelevant as well.
You think spectre is OP because she gets a high winrate later in the game?
Gee, a super hard carry that wins lategame when a lot of farm has been accumulated, how surprising.
Or riki and ursa, midgame heroes having a big mid-game win-rate, geeee, that sure is surprise, wait what's that? Ursa and riki fall off lategame? Who would've thought.
It's like you want all heroes have 50% win rate at both early, mid and lategame.
You are either incredibly ignorant or incredibly stupid, not quite sure which it is.
DotA is not like SC2 because there are early-game, mid-game, late-game, push, turtle, gank, 4 defend one, heroes and so on. There are heroes for so many different specific scenarios that they will have different win rates at different times in a game.
Pubstomping heroes will always have a high win-rate in public games where people have zero coordination, but when's the last time you've seen bloodseeker win against a coordinated team? Yea, i thought so.
User was warned for this post
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On May 12 2012 22:02 paralleluniverse wrote:
There seems to be increased talk about ways to beat Ursa in the last several posts, but this is all irrelevant. As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics.
Statistics with no context or analysis behind them only demonstrate how dumb you are. And I say that as politely as I can, because it is blatantly obvious that you're trolling.
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On May 12 2012 22:03 Qbek wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 22:02 paralleluniverse wrote:
There seems to be increased talk about ways to beat Ursa in the last several posts, but this is all irrelevant. As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics. Ok, troll confirmed
Everything has counters. Siege tanks had counters before they were nerfed. The reason why balance shouldn't focus on counters, but rather aggregate statistics is because the former takes into account the opportunity to use the counters, the effectiveness of the counters, and the counters to the counters, etc .The former is a personal anecdote, mostly ignores these factors, and is no basis for scientific inference.
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On May 12 2012 22:02 paralleluniverse wrote:
There seems to be increased talk about ways to beat Ursa in the last several posts, but this is all irrelevant. As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics.
ROFL oh god...
so what's statistics and probability dependent on then, oh mighty one?
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On May 12 2012 22:08 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 22:03 Qbek wrote:On May 12 2012 22:02 paralleluniverse wrote:
There seems to be increased talk about ways to beat Ursa in the last several posts, but this is all irrelevant. As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics. Ok, troll confirmed Everything has counters. Siege tanks had counters before they were nerfed. The reason why balance shouldn't focus on counters, but rather aggregate statistics is because the former takes into account the opportunity to use the counters, the effectiveness of the counters, and the counters to the counters, etc .The former is a personal anecdote, mostly ignores these factors, and is no basis for scientific inference.
But the counters to ursa are 99% effective, the fact that YOU and 90% of the public players are too stupid to utilize them does not make some OP, it makes you bad players.
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On May 12 2012 22:06 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 22:02 paralleluniverse wrote:
There seems to be increased talk about ways to beat Ursa in the last several posts, but this is all irrelevant. As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics. Statistics with no context or analysis behind them only demonstrate how dumb you are. And I say that as politely as I can, because it is blatantly obvious that you're trolling.
Feel free to look at my 1000 post history. I never troll. Ever. And nearly all of the topics I post in are serious and substantive.
The "out of context" comment is always made when people can't discredit statistics, talk in generalities, and have no specific counterarguement. The context that is that it's the win rate over the length of the games that include a particular hero, taken from a random sample of DotA 2 games.
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On May 12 2012 22:09 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 22:08 paralleluniverse wrote:On May 12 2012 22:03 Qbek wrote:On May 12 2012 22:02 paralleluniverse wrote:
There seems to be increased talk about ways to beat Ursa in the last several posts, but this is all irrelevant. As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics. Ok, troll confirmed Everything has counters. Siege tanks had counters before they were nerfed. The reason why balance shouldn't focus on counters, but rather aggregate statistics is because the former takes into account the opportunity to use the counters, the effectiveness of the counters, and the counters to the counters, etc .The former is a personal anecdote, mostly ignores these factors, and is no basis for scientific inference. But the counters to ursa are 99% effective, the fact that YOU and 90% of the public players are too stupid to utilize them does not make some OP, it makes you bad players.
But that doesn't take into account the the opportunity to use the counter, the counters to the counters, etc. Which was exactly my point. As a result of your failure to account for these complicating factors, your personal anecdote does not align with the facts, and you've come to an incorrect conclusion.
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The winrate of worker rushing taken from a random sample of SC2 games is almost 60%, that's statistically almost as imbalanced as Ursa, please ask for nerf in SC2 threads, I am afraid I am not enlightened enough in the ways of statistics to coherently create a thread to address this obvious imbalance.
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On May 12 2012 22:05 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 22:02 paralleluniverse wrote:
There seems to be increased talk about ways to beat Ursa in the last several posts, but this is all irrelevant. As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics. And your opinions and 'statistics' are irrelevant as well. You think spectre is OP because she gets a high winrate later in the game? Gee, a super hard carry that wins lategame when a lot of farm has been accumulated, how surprising. Or riki and ursa, midgame heroes having a big mid-game win-rate, geeee, that sure is surprise, wait what's that? Ursa and riki fall off lategame? Who would've thought. It's like you want all heroes have 50% win rate at both early, mid and lategame. You are either incredibly ignorant or incredibly stupid, not quite sure which it is. DotA is not like SC2 because there are early-game, mid-game, late-game, push, turtle, gank, 4 defend one, heroes and so on. There are heroes for so many different specific scenarios that they will have different win rates at different times in a game. Pubstomping heroes will always have a high win-rate in public games where people have zero coordination, but when's the last time you've seen bloodseeker win against a coordinated team? Yea, i thought so.
Your defense is that these heroes can be countered in the early game, so that they aren't so OP in the late game. This isn't reflected in the stats. These heroes have a >50% win rate throughout the game, including the early game, and get better as the game progresses. It's like arguing with a bunch of scientific illiterates.
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sc is a 1v1 game. dota is a 5v5. here, start from there, paralleluniverse.
play more dota before you speak. sc2 is imba as fck atm is due to there is no solution when you face some situation, while in scbw there is a solution for all situation (where the player can achieve or not is a different matter). dota is balancing around.....well......someone wrote a thesis for that....so i guess in the simplest explanation, strengths of heroes in different stages of the game+team work+items.
the solution for playing against PA is to gank the shit out of PA whole game. oh wait, you have no idea who's PA dont you? I really hope the beta players who started to play dota since last year do not think that they know shit about dota. i wonder what will people react when PA finally introduced rofl.
that said, dota2 has quite some imbaness atm but mainly due to the limited hero pool and some 'unreplicatable'/changed bugs/limitation from dota1.
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On May 12 2012 22:15 Kupon3ss wrote:
The winrate of worker rushing taken from a random sample of SC2 games is almost 60%, that's statistically almost as imbalanced as Ursa, please ask for nerf in SC2 threads, I am afraid I am not enlightened enough in the ways of statistics to coherently create a thread to address this obvious imbalance.
Where did you get a random sample of worker rushing games?
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STOP IT WITH THE SC COMPARISONS.
The games are nothing like each other. EG you say that TvZ was never as unbalanced as *insert hero here*, but its more like comparing zerglings and marines.
Also - you complaining about tidehunter? I haven't heard a peep from you about him, but he appears to have a higher win rate than ursa (can't give 100% reliable stats on that because its only a graph no data ect).
And all of this is from uncoordinated pub games. It would be interesting to do the same analysis on something like NADL.
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On May 12 2012 22:16 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 22:05 Unleashing wrote:On May 12 2012 22:02 paralleluniverse wrote:
There seems to be increased talk about ways to beat Ursa in the last several posts, but this is all irrelevant. As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics. And your opinions and 'statistics' are irrelevant as well. You think spectre is OP because she gets a high winrate later in the game? Gee, a super hard carry that wins lategame when a lot of farm has been accumulated, how surprising. Or riki and ursa, midgame heroes having a big mid-game win-rate, geeee, that sure is surprise, wait what's that? Ursa and riki fall off lategame? Who would've thought. It's like you want all heroes have 50% win rate at both early, mid and lategame. You are either incredibly ignorant or incredibly stupid, not quite sure which it is. DotA is not like SC2 because there are early-game, mid-game, late-game, push, turtle, gank, 4 defend one, heroes and so on. There are heroes for so many different specific scenarios that they will have different win rates at different times in a game. Pubstomping heroes will always have a high win-rate in public games where people have zero coordination, but when's the last time you've seen bloodseeker win against a coordinated team? Yea, i thought so. Your defense is that these heroes can be countered in the early game, so that they aren't so OP in the late game. This isn't reflected in the stats. These heroes have a >50% win rate throughout the game, including the early game, and get better as the game progresses.
Sorry for the language.
Did you pull that out from you ass??:D
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EPT
