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General Discussion - Page 516

Forum Index > Dota 2 General
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IRC chatter should remain in IRC - http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=tl.dota2

Posts that relate to topics with their own thread, such as in News, Tournaments or Strategy should go in those threads.
PassiveAce
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States18076 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-09 03:55:52
May 09 2012 03:54 GMT
#10301
So are shakeups that change the entire lineups of teams every other week as common as they would seem to be?
I am new to the scene (never followed Dota1) so I dont know if the recent drama is a good indicator for what it will be like going forward.
Call me Marge Simpson cuz I love you homie
SirMilford
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Australia1269 Posts
May 09 2012 04:02 GMT
#10302
Is VALVE ever going to have a visible MMR? Or will it always just be "high,medium,low"
NB
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Netherlands12045 Posts
May 09 2012 04:19 GMT
#10303
i doubt they will because having non-hidden mmr just bring out more bragging therefore reduce the quality of the community which will ultimately kill the game. But not having one is really a pain in the ass atm...
Im daed. Follow me @TL_NB
SirMilford
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Australia1269 Posts
May 09 2012 04:23 GMT
#10304
Ye because i am in the high ranking or whatever, but i wouldn't mind seeing just how high i am.
LAN-f34r
Profile Joined December 2010
New Zealand2099 Posts
May 09 2012 04:59 GMT
#10305
They might have something similar to SC2 - A general indicator via leagues, then the super high can get accurate stats (grandmaster)

Or they could do something like LoL ranked games.

Or they could come up with something completely different.
The only barrier to truth is the presumption that you already have it. It's through our pane (pain) we window (win though).
Itsmedudeman
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States19229 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-09 05:11:43
May 09 2012 05:10 GMT
#10306
On May 09 2012 13:19 NB wrote:
i doubt they will because having non-hidden mmr just bring out more bragging therefore reduce the quality of the community which will ultimately kill the game. But not having one is really a pain in the ass atm...

I honestly cannot imagine them not implementing ranked gameplay. If they don't put one in I'd start calling dota2 more casual than LoL. Putting hurt feelings over competitive play for those who want it. The MM system we have now is pretty much exactly like LoL normal games, and I'd rather not play those for the rest of my life. Setting up inhouse leagues is time consuming and not as accessible to everyone either.
NB
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Netherlands12045 Posts
May 09 2012 05:33 GMT
#10307
On May 09 2012 14:10 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2012 13:19 NB wrote:
i doubt they will because having non-hidden mmr just bring out more bragging therefore reduce the quality of the community which will ultimately kill the game. But not having one is really a pain in the ass atm...

I honestly cannot imagine them not implementing ranked gameplay. If they don't put one in I'd start calling dota2 more casual than LoL. Putting hurt feelings over competitive play for those who want it. The MM system we have now is pretty much exactly like LoL normal games, and I'd rather not play those for the rest of my life. Setting up inhouse leagues is time consuming and not as accessible to everyone either.

no, they could just make up fake rank system like sc2 and hidden MMR. who are calling sc2 is more casual than LoL?
Im daed. Follow me @TL_NB
Erasme
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Bahamas15899 Posts
May 09 2012 05:35 GMT
#10308
Ya, it put more weight than LoL normal games because there is no ranked games like in LoL. So its relatively the same :p
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7lxwFEB6FI “‘Drain the swamp’? Stupid saying, means nothing, but you guys loved it so I kept saying it.”
Utaheka
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark124 Posts
May 09 2012 06:05 GMT
#10309
On May 09 2012 14:10 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2012 13:19 NB wrote:
i doubt they will because having non-hidden mmr just bring out more bragging therefore reduce the quality of the community which will ultimately kill the game. But not having one is really a pain in the ass atm...

I honestly cannot imagine them not implementing ranked gameplay. If they don't put one in I'd start calling dota2 more casual than LoL. Putting hurt feelings over competitive play for those who want it. The MM system we have now is pretty much exactly like LoL normal games, and I'd rather not play those for the rest of my life. Setting up inhouse leagues is time consuming and not as accessible to everyone either.

Dota 2 more casual than LoL? Doubt it. Dunno if you have key or whatnot, or have played all dota-like games, but DotA is definitely the hardest of all three. (Only counting hon, lol, dota2).
And the ranked system is already implented in the MMR. If you want to play "normal games", like in lol, you'll probably have to play custom games.

Yes, there are certain inhouse leagues atm (Wouldn't count TL as one, since it's like playing pubs to be honest), but there's still NADL, but unless you know people, it's hard to get in there.
Anywho,
I think they shouldn't be going for ranked games like in LoL. Because in LoL, people have a tendency to be complete jerkoffs saying "I got this solo carry" shit, and if it doesn't go their way they rage alot. I don't think we want that in Dota2. Meanwhile, sadly, the HoN communtiy is dying, so therefore all the crybabies are joining DotA 2. - You all know it's true.
And I'm not trying generalize all DotA players, because it's ofcourse not everybody who's whining, some does know how to behave, but still, sadly, the majority of the DotA community tends to whine alot.
BurningSera
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Ireland19621 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-09 07:20:27
May 09 2012 06:24 GMT
#10310
On May 09 2012 11:07 NB wrote:
was trying to snipe singsing... he is now in game 5 mins and i still dont have a single match...

[image loading]


dude, you forget AP xD (sing only queue on AP, SD)

edit:oh shit sry he queued sd rd last night XD
is 2017, stop being lame, fuck's sakes. 'Can't wait for the rise of the cakes and humanity's last stand tbqh.'
Itsmedudeman
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States19229 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-09 06:39:20
May 09 2012 06:35 GMT
#10311
On May 09 2012 15:05 Utaheka wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2012 14:10 Itsmedudeman wrote:
On May 09 2012 13:19 NB wrote:
i doubt they will because having non-hidden mmr just bring out more bragging therefore reduce the quality of the community which will ultimately kill the game. But not having one is really a pain in the ass atm...

I honestly cannot imagine them not implementing ranked gameplay. If they don't put one in I'd start calling dota2 more casual than LoL. Putting hurt feelings over competitive play for those who want it. The MM system we have now is pretty much exactly like LoL normal games, and I'd rather not play those for the rest of my life. Setting up inhouse leagues is time consuming and not as accessible to everyone either.

Dota 2 more casual than LoL? Doubt it. Dunno if you have key or whatnot, or have played all dota-like games, but DotA is definitely the hardest of all three. (Only counting hon, lol, dota2).
And the ranked system is already implented in the MMR. If you want to play "normal games", like in lol, you'll probably have to play custom games.

Yes, there are certain inhouse leagues atm (Wouldn't count TL as one, since it's like playing pubs to be honest), but there's still NADL, but unless you know people, it's hard to get in there.
Anywho,
I think they shouldn't be going for ranked games like in LoL. Because in LoL, people have a tendency to be complete jerkoffs saying "I got this solo carry" shit, and if it doesn't go their way they rage alot. I don't think we want that in Dota2. Meanwhile, sadly, the HoN communtiy is dying, so therefore all the crybabies are joining DotA 2. - You all know it's true.
And I'm not trying generalize all DotA players, because it's ofcourse not everybody who's whining, some does know how to behave, but still, sadly, the majority of the DotA community tends to whine alot.

Lolwut, normal games have their own hidden MMR. They work EXACTLY like the dota 2 MM. You can queue with anyone, 2 to 5 people if you want, and it tries to match you to an equal total MMR. And how is dota harder than any of them? You can't make that claim unless you're literally at the top of each game, which I don't think anyone here can say that.
Itsmedudeman
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States19229 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-09 06:40:28
May 09 2012 06:36 GMT
#10312
On May 09 2012 14:33 NB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2012 14:10 Itsmedudeman wrote:
On May 09 2012 13:19 NB wrote:
i doubt they will because having non-hidden mmr just bring out more bragging therefore reduce the quality of the community which will ultimately kill the game. But not having one is really a pain in the ass atm...

I honestly cannot imagine them not implementing ranked gameplay. If they don't put one in I'd start calling dota2 more casual than LoL. Putting hurt feelings over competitive play for those who want it. The MM system we have now is pretty much exactly like LoL normal games, and I'd rather not play those for the rest of my life. Setting up inhouse leagues is time consuming and not as accessible to everyone either.

no, they could just make up fake rank system like sc2 and hidden MMR. who are calling sc2 is more casual than LoL?

In the case of getting rid of a visible ranked system how is that any different? SC2 is probably the most "elitist" when it comes to even amateur level competitive play and people make fun of "bronze level" tactics, etc all the time.

In any case, ELO never came close to killing LoL. If you don't have it in you to deal with that shit you can play normals and everyone is happy.
Slythape
Profile Joined October 2010
Malaysia689 Posts
May 09 2012 07:34 GMT
#10313
Does anyone have good replays of Exort build invokers? Mainly Pajkatt, Dendi or G?
Tobberoth
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden6375 Posts
May 09 2012 07:35 GMT
#10314
On May 09 2012 15:35 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2012 15:05 Utaheka wrote:
On May 09 2012 14:10 Itsmedudeman wrote:
On May 09 2012 13:19 NB wrote:
i doubt they will because having non-hidden mmr just bring out more bragging therefore reduce the quality of the community which will ultimately kill the game. But not having one is really a pain in the ass atm...

I honestly cannot imagine them not implementing ranked gameplay. If they don't put one in I'd start calling dota2 more casual than LoL. Putting hurt feelings over competitive play for those who want it. The MM system we have now is pretty much exactly like LoL normal games, and I'd rather not play those for the rest of my life. Setting up inhouse leagues is time consuming and not as accessible to everyone either.

Dota 2 more casual than LoL? Doubt it. Dunno if you have key or whatnot, or have played all dota-like games, but DotA is definitely the hardest of all three. (Only counting hon, lol, dota2).
And the ranked system is already implented in the MMR. If you want to play "normal games", like in lol, you'll probably have to play custom games.

Yes, there are certain inhouse leagues atm (Wouldn't count TL as one, since it's like playing pubs to be honest), but there's still NADL, but unless you know people, it's hard to get in there.
Anywho,
I think they shouldn't be going for ranked games like in LoL. Because in LoL, people have a tendency to be complete jerkoffs saying "I got this solo carry" shit, and if it doesn't go their way they rage alot. I don't think we want that in Dota2. Meanwhile, sadly, the HoN communtiy is dying, so therefore all the crybabies are joining DotA 2. - You all know it's true.
And I'm not trying generalize all DotA players, because it's ofcourse not everybody who's whining, some does know how to behave, but still, sadly, the majority of the DotA community tends to whine alot.

Lolwut, normal games have their own hidden MMR. They work EXACTLY like the dota 2 MM. You can queue with anyone, 2 to 5 people if you want, and it tries to match you to an equal total MMR. And how is dota harder than any of them? You can't make that claim unless you're literally at the top of each game, which I don't think anyone here can say that.

The reason dota is considered harder is because it requires more mechanics, such as creep denying, creep stacking/pulling, most items have active abilities, no noob-free tp which can take you back to base whenever, etc.

The skills needed on the very top level are very different and at that point, players already know the mechanics well, so saying dota is the hardest actually does make the most sense when you're not playing at the very top.
Slaptoast
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada134 Posts
May 09 2012 08:02 GMT
#10315
I agree there needs to be some kind of ranking system. Even in LoL there was something skill related to shoot for.
Flash! Aaaahhhhh!….He'll kill every one of us!
Utaheka
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark124 Posts
May 09 2012 08:03 GMT
#10316
On May 09 2012 15:35 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2012 15:05 Utaheka wrote:
On May 09 2012 14:10 Itsmedudeman wrote:
On May 09 2012 13:19 NB wrote:
i doubt they will because having non-hidden mmr just bring out more bragging therefore reduce the quality of the community which will ultimately kill the game. But not having one is really a pain in the ass atm...

I honestly cannot imagine them not implementing ranked gameplay. If they don't put one in I'd start calling dota2 more casual than LoL. Putting hurt feelings over competitive play for those who want it. The MM system we have now is pretty much exactly like LoL normal games, and I'd rather not play those for the rest of my life. Setting up inhouse leagues is time consuming and not as accessible to everyone either.

Dota 2 more casual than LoL? Doubt it. Dunno if you have key or whatnot, or have played all dota-like games, but DotA is definitely the hardest of all three. (Only counting hon, lol, dota2).
And the ranked system is already implented in the MMR. If you want to play "normal games", like in lol, you'll probably have to play custom games.

Yes, there are certain inhouse leagues atm (Wouldn't count TL as one, since it's like playing pubs to be honest), but there's still NADL, but unless you know people, it's hard to get in there.
Anywho,
I think they shouldn't be going for ranked games like in LoL. Because in LoL, people have a tendency to be complete jerkoffs saying "I got this solo carry" shit, and if it doesn't go their way they rage alot. I don't think we want that in Dota2. Meanwhile, sadly, the HoN communtiy is dying, so therefore all the crybabies are joining DotA 2. - You all know it's true.
And I'm not trying generalize all DotA players, because it's ofcourse not everybody who's whining, some does know how to behave, but still, sadly, the majority of the DotA community tends to whine alot.

Lolwut, normal games have their own hidden MMR. They work EXACTLY like the dota 2 MM. You can queue with anyone, 2 to 5 people if you want, and it tries to match you to an equal total MMR. And how is dota harder than any of them? You can't make that claim unless you're literally at the top of each game, which I don't think anyone here can say that.
Normal Games doesn't have MMR lol? Why would it? That people that I know can have +100 wins in normal games and still not be pro, they're far from pro actually.
I don't think there's any MMR system in Normal games, they're only implented in Ranked. Ofcourse they're levelscaling and scanning through your wins (not loss), but besides that, no.

And DotA 2 is harder because of the mechanics, if you don't think it's harder, you clearly never played DotA . Any LoL player I know will agree on my statement.
Utaheka
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark124 Posts
May 09 2012 08:04 GMT
#10317
On May 09 2012 16:35 Tobberoth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2012 15:35 Itsmedudeman wrote:
On May 09 2012 15:05 Utaheka wrote:
On May 09 2012 14:10 Itsmedudeman wrote:
On May 09 2012 13:19 NB wrote:
i doubt they will because having non-hidden mmr just bring out more bragging therefore reduce the quality of the community which will ultimately kill the game. But not having one is really a pain in the ass atm...

I honestly cannot imagine them not implementing ranked gameplay. If they don't put one in I'd start calling dota2 more casual than LoL. Putting hurt feelings over competitive play for those who want it. The MM system we have now is pretty much exactly like LoL normal games, and I'd rather not play those for the rest of my life. Setting up inhouse leagues is time consuming and not as accessible to everyone either.

Dota 2 more casual than LoL? Doubt it. Dunno if you have key or whatnot, or have played all dota-like games, but DotA is definitely the hardest of all three. (Only counting hon, lol, dota2).
And the ranked system is already implented in the MMR. If you want to play "normal games", like in lol, you'll probably have to play custom games.

Yes, there are certain inhouse leagues atm (Wouldn't count TL as one, since it's like playing pubs to be honest), but there's still NADL, but unless you know people, it's hard to get in there.
Anywho,
I think they shouldn't be going for ranked games like in LoL. Because in LoL, people have a tendency to be complete jerkoffs saying "I got this solo carry" shit, and if it doesn't go their way they rage alot. I don't think we want that in Dota2. Meanwhile, sadly, the HoN communtiy is dying, so therefore all the crybabies are joining DotA 2. - You all know it's true.
And I'm not trying generalize all DotA players, because it's ofcourse not everybody who's whining, some does know how to behave, but still, sadly, the majority of the DotA community tends to whine alot.

Lolwut, normal games have their own hidden MMR. They work EXACTLY like the dota 2 MM. You can queue with anyone, 2 to 5 people if you want, and it tries to match you to an equal total MMR. And how is dota harder than any of them? You can't make that claim unless you're literally at the top of each game, which I don't think anyone here can say that.

The reason dota is considered harder is because it requires more mechanics, such as creep denying, creep stacking/pulling, most items have active abilities, no noob-free tp which can take you back to base whenever, etc.

The skills needed on the very top level are very different and at that point, players already know the mechanics well, so saying dota is the hardest actually does make the most sense when you're not playing at the very top.
Agreed.
Itsmedudeman
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States19229 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-09 08:33:42
May 09 2012 08:27 GMT
#10318
On May 09 2012 17:03 Utaheka wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2012 15:35 Itsmedudeman wrote:
On May 09 2012 15:05 Utaheka wrote:
On May 09 2012 14:10 Itsmedudeman wrote:
On May 09 2012 13:19 NB wrote:
i doubt they will because having non-hidden mmr just bring out more bragging therefore reduce the quality of the community which will ultimately kill the game. But not having one is really a pain in the ass atm...

I honestly cannot imagine them not implementing ranked gameplay. If they don't put one in I'd start calling dota2 more casual than LoL. Putting hurt feelings over competitive play for those who want it. The MM system we have now is pretty much exactly like LoL normal games, and I'd rather not play those for the rest of my life. Setting up inhouse leagues is time consuming and not as accessible to everyone either.

Dota 2 more casual than LoL? Doubt it. Dunno if you have key or whatnot, or have played all dota-like games, but DotA is definitely the hardest of all three. (Only counting hon, lol, dota2).
And the ranked system is already implented in the MMR. If you want to play "normal games", like in lol, you'll probably have to play custom games.

Yes, there are certain inhouse leagues atm (Wouldn't count TL as one, since it's like playing pubs to be honest), but there's still NADL, but unless you know people, it's hard to get in there.
Anywho,
I think they shouldn't be going for ranked games like in LoL. Because in LoL, people have a tendency to be complete jerkoffs saying "I got this solo carry" shit, and if it doesn't go their way they rage alot. I don't think we want that in Dota2. Meanwhile, sadly, the HoN communtiy is dying, so therefore all the crybabies are joining DotA 2. - You all know it's true.
And I'm not trying generalize all DotA players, because it's ofcourse not everybody who's whining, some does know how to behave, but still, sadly, the majority of the DotA community tends to whine alot.

Lolwut, normal games have their own hidden MMR. They work EXACTLY like the dota 2 MM. You can queue with anyone, 2 to 5 people if you want, and it tries to match you to an equal total MMR. And how is dota harder than any of them? You can't make that claim unless you're literally at the top of each game, which I don't think anyone here can say that.
Normal Games doesn't have MMR lol? Why would it? That people that I know can have +100 wins in normal games and still not be pro, they're far from pro actually.
I don't think there's any MMR system in Normal games, they're only implented in Ranked. Ofcourse they're levelscaling and scanning through your wins (not loss), but besides that, no.

And DotA 2 is harder because of the mechanics, if you don't think it's harder, you clearly never played DotA . Any LoL player I know will agree on my statement.

They 100% do actually. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1009116 and other past posts, etc. They're completely separate from the ranked ELO. They aren't based off # of wins, they're based off wins - losses in the same way every other MMR system is based off of. It would be silly to not have a system like that. Some people are much worse than others after certain # of wins and they'd constantly lose after a certain amount of games because their wins can only go up.

In any case, my post was never about which game is harder, but I definitely consider having only non "ranked" games, because people would get butthurt over ratings, a casual game system.
Tobberoth
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden6375 Posts
May 09 2012 08:38 GMT
#10319
Yeah, LoL normal definitely uses a hidden ELO. I didn't play lol much and weren't all that good, but one of my friends dedicated a ton of time and got really good... so when he played with the rest of us, it was downright ridiculous, he demolished everyone. And when I played with him and his buddies who played on his level, I was completely destroyed... while at the same time, he and his buddies could use troll builds because my low ELO was bringing down the enemy team enough for them to play around.

So yeah, it's definitely there, if you've played LoL for a long time and you're good at it, try to play with a premade team filled with newbs and you'll see the difference in the opponent team.
Hoban
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1600 Posts
May 09 2012 08:41 GMT
#10320
On May 09 2012 17:27 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2012 17:03 Utaheka wrote:
On May 09 2012 15:35 Itsmedudeman wrote:
On May 09 2012 15:05 Utaheka wrote:
On May 09 2012 14:10 Itsmedudeman wrote:
On May 09 2012 13:19 NB wrote:
i doubt they will because having non-hidden mmr just bring out more bragging therefore reduce the quality of the community which will ultimately kill the game. But not having one is really a pain in the ass atm...

I honestly cannot imagine them not implementing ranked gameplay. If they don't put one in I'd start calling dota2 more casual than LoL. Putting hurt feelings over competitive play for those who want it. The MM system we have now is pretty much exactly like LoL normal games, and I'd rather not play those for the rest of my life. Setting up inhouse leagues is time consuming and not as accessible to everyone either.

Dota 2 more casual than LoL? Doubt it. Dunno if you have key or whatnot, or have played all dota-like games, but DotA is definitely the hardest of all three. (Only counting hon, lol, dota2).
And the ranked system is already implented in the MMR. If you want to play "normal games", like in lol, you'll probably have to play custom games.

Yes, there are certain inhouse leagues atm (Wouldn't count TL as one, since it's like playing pubs to be honest), but there's still NADL, but unless you know people, it's hard to get in there.
Anywho,
I think they shouldn't be going for ranked games like in LoL. Because in LoL, people have a tendency to be complete jerkoffs saying "I got this solo carry" shit, and if it doesn't go their way they rage alot. I don't think we want that in Dota2. Meanwhile, sadly, the HoN communtiy is dying, so therefore all the crybabies are joining DotA 2. - You all know it's true.
And I'm not trying generalize all DotA players, because it's ofcourse not everybody who's whining, some does know how to behave, but still, sadly, the majority of the DotA community tends to whine alot.

Lolwut, normal games have their own hidden MMR. They work EXACTLY like the dota 2 MM. You can queue with anyone, 2 to 5 people if you want, and it tries to match you to an equal total MMR. And how is dota harder than any of them? You can't make that claim unless you're literally at the top of each game, which I don't think anyone here can say that.
Normal Games doesn't have MMR lol? Why would it? That people that I know can have +100 wins in normal games and still not be pro, they're far from pro actually.
I don't think there's any MMR system in Normal games, they're only implented in Ranked. Ofcourse they're levelscaling and scanning through your wins (not loss), but besides that, no.

And DotA 2 is harder because of the mechanics, if you don't think it's harder, you clearly never played DotA . Any LoL player I know will agree on my statement.

They 100% do actually. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1009116 and other past posts, etc. They're completely separate from the ranked ELO.

In any case, my post was never about which game is harder, but I definitely consider having only non "ranked" games, because people would get butthurt over ratings, a casual game system.


I don't agree with having only non-ranked games. I know my goal right now is to get decent enough to either get a NADL vouch or at least set up some scrims with talented opponents. The only reason I play TLIH and pubs is to improve mechanics. I don't want to just play the game to play the game. I want to play the game to get better so I can play against tougher opponents. I think the king of quotes, Sing_Sing, said it best on his stream today when he was losing a game terribly, "I don't like games like this they are boring but also don't like stomps, they are even more boring. The best games are close games." If there is just a "normal" mode, there won't be any drive to do shit other than pub-stomp strats ect. Sure, now and then I just want to go stack a pub and crush some newbies but that really isn't where I find joy in the game. Joy is in fierce competition. Joy is in those back-and-forth games where every moment is so intense, the sweat is dripping down your face, because any mistake could cost the game. A pub will rarely give that feeling because you can just say, "Whatever, it was just a pub game." The game needs to mean something and that is what ranked games and rankings and ladders add to it. They give you a reason to fight for a comeback, they give you a reason to hit that queue button again and again.

In closing, I am fine with normal games, they are fun and can be exciting or dull. What I really want is a sense of progression, a way to find more challenging opponents, the intensity that competition brings to a game. Even if it is just numbers on a scoreboard and a little prestige, it is something to play for that makes winning important.
"I am a leaf on the wind."
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