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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
Her ult is amazing, but the fact you get ult CD lower a bit faster is ofset by the fact that you know, carry naga needs to be, like, FARMING CONSTANTLY. Wheras while the CD might be 30 seconds longer on her ult for a few minutes, a support naga is gonna have far much more use. As for her effectiveness as a support, just look at [A] in TI3. Support naga singlehandedly won them 1.8 million dollars. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On October 01 2013 01:16 Acritter wrote: Naga's base damage is WAY too low. It makes LHD ridiculously difficult, and she doesn't have the jacked stat gain of PL to make up for it. Well, it's way too low for you, but (some) pro can get every last hit with her. It only become a problem in a 1v1, and even then, new riptide is pretty good. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 01 2013 01:15 BlitzerSC wrote: ^ This, holy fuck. Is it so hard to understand ? [A] won TI3 with Naga support while most of the other teams failed with it, now everybody jumped and the bandwagon but that doesn't mean it's good. Same old story with Alchemist support and Gyrocopter support. Gyro support was a thing in high-level pubs way before Alliance started playing it. Hell, it was a thing in DotA 1 pubs before he was even in DotA 2. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On October 01 2013 01:15 BlitzerSC wrote: ^ This, holy fuck. Is it so hard to understand ? [A] won TI3 with Naga support while most of the other teams failed with it, now everybody jumped and the bandwagon but that doesn't mean it's good. Same old story with Alchemist support and Gyrocopter support. Um... Sorry to break it to you, but EVERYONE has been running Naga support for a while. Liquid started the trend before TI3 (though admittedly on a solo mid role), and they just beat Alliance with it with their new roster. Naga support is completely legit, and you're absolutely clueless. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Oktyabr
Singapore2234 Posts
On October 01 2013 00:55 Sn0_Man wrote: A) level 1 song and level 3 song have exactly 1 difference: the cooldown. Everything else is the same lol. B) run your images in to get riptide damage/debuff, no reason to risk your hero. Works fine as a support. If you die trying to get riptide in as a support its likely because you are awful. C) She isn't in the same league as AM in terms of carrying and her ability to pressure multiple lanes concurrently is pretty limited by the mobility of her illusions. If you've never played the hero I'd recommend avoiding serious discussion of her playstyles. E: re: peaking: Yeah its probably 10 not 9. Although 11 is nice for the CD. After 11 its pretty much just stats that she gains which mostly keep her alive so aren't terribly relevant in the grand scheme of things. A) The difference between 3 minutes and 1 minute is what makes Naga difficult to catch out of position in the mid-end game when she's split pushing. 1 minute means that you are guaranteed to push a lane out as a carry to the enemy's T2 at least and wipe out half of the enemy's jungle way after your tp comes off cooldown. A 3 minute cd pretty much means that you're stuck at your own side of the river forever, not to forget that the quick cd allows you to re-engage or disengage multiple times based on enemy ultimate cool downs. The flexibility is huge - consider lasso, RP. Using song appropriately is definitely game changing past the 40 minute mark. B) A support in the early mid-game has no mana to continuously send images JUST to riptide. obviously knowing when to go in keeps you alive longer, but then again support nagas die all the time the same way es tends to die whenever he tries to use echo slam without a blink dagger. C) I actually agree that she isn't in the same league as AM when it comes to pressuring lanes, but Naga has way better stats at level 25 when it comes to man-moding. she hits harder with multiple illusions as well, and she has a lock + armor reduction capabilities without additional items - to argue that AM is universally better in carrying is pretty moot. Naga as a carry actually peaks when she's 6 slotted, and her damage potential actually far exceeds AM at that point. AM is only preferred because of his ability to disengage easily, and he generally acquires items much faster. i strongly recommend that you avoid telling others to avoid "serious discussion" of her playstyles when you have never played that hero as a carry to full 6 slots consistently. | ||
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BlitzerSC
Italy8800 Posts
Second: I never said that Naga support isn't legit. I just said that carry Naga is far better. Third: Don't say that I'm clueless, especially when you don't know me/never played with me because I'm not. | ||
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Oktyabr
Singapore2234 Posts
On October 01 2013 01:19 Acritter wrote: Um... Sorry to break it to you, but EVERYONE has been running Naga support for a while. Liquid started the trend before TI3 (though admittedly on a solo mid role), and they just beat Alliance with it with their new roster. Naga support is completely legit, and you're absolutely clueless. I think Zenith started using support Naga in Feb - March period in GEST. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On October 01 2013 01:18 Erasme wrote: Well, it's way too low for you, but (some) pro can get every last hit with her. It only become a problem in a 1v1, and even then, new riptide is pretty good. And then you end up with like 50 less base damage at level 16. That's pretty much a Demon Edge. You're deciding to give the enemy carry a Demon Edge so you can get your Song to a higher level. Is that so, Oktyabr? I stand corrected. I'm pretty sure it was Liquid's use that reintroduced her to the West, though. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On October 01 2013 01:24 Acritter wrote: And then you end up with like 50 less base damage at level 16. That's pretty much a Demon Edge. You're deciding to give the enemy carry a Demon Edge so you can get your Song to a higher level. That's a simplistic way to look at it, not very surprising tho. | ||
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trinxified
Canada7774 Posts
On October 01 2013 01:22 TheYango wrote: Also, one oft-neglected trait of support Naga is that she's the safest Gem carrier in the game. Illusions retain True Sight, and Naga illusions are far more practical for scouting/de-warding than any other illusion hero, given how many of them you get and their duration. This. I was just about to mention this. A killer advantage for mid-game to late-game. As a support, you probably won't need your 6-slots for other items, so she's an excellent Gem holder. If you build her as a carry, likely you won't have a slot for the Gem. Safe way to deward, scout, and be a moving sentry ward. Spotting smoke ganks, Nyx, BH, etc., Rosh check. Too much to offer with very little risk if any. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On October 01 2013 01:13 Erasme wrote: naga is probably as good as pl as a #1 but since alliance raped face with her as support, she only sees play as support I like you.  <3 Naga | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 01 2013 01:24 Acritter wrote: And then you end up with like 50 less base damage at level 16. That's pretty much a Demon Edge. You're deciding to give the enemy carry a Demon Edge so you can get your Song to a higher level. What? Base damage difference doesn't grow. The only thing that determines base damage growth is prime stat gain, and Naga's +2.75 per level is pretty standard among Agi carries. | ||
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Oktyabr
Singapore2234 Posts
On October 01 2013 01:24 Acritter wrote: And then you end up with like 50 less base damage at level 16. That's pretty much a Demon Edge. You're deciding to give the enemy carry a Demon Edge so you can get your Song to a higher level. Is that so, Oktyabr? I stand corrected. I'm pretty sure it was Liquid's use that reintroduced her to the West, though. Zenith vs Orange SEA League Grand Finals in Feb: | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On October 01 2013 01:26 Erasme wrote: That's a simplistic way to look at it, not very surprising tho. It doesn't NEED to be complex. Carry heroes are fundamentally very simple, especially in this meta. It's either about how well they fight early or how hard they farm. The former category is occupied by Lifestealer and Gyro, and the latter by Alchemist and Antimage. Naga Siren occupies neither category particularly well. Her abysmal base damage heavily cuts into her fighting and farming potential, and then when you compare her to heroes who do those things well, she gets painfully outclassed. To make it perfectly clear and simple: why do YOU think it is that nobody runs Siren carry any longer? Is it because you're smarter than every professional out there? | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On October 01 2013 01:30 TheYango wrote: What? Base damage difference doesn't grow. The only thing that determines base damage growth is prime stat gain, and Naga's +2.75 per level is pretty standard among Agi carries. Base damage=damage before items, here. Her stat gain is fine in a vacuum, but not fine considering she has no level 1 damage. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On October 01 2013 01:33 Acritter wrote: Base damage=damage before items, here. Her stat gain is fine in a vacuum, but not fine considering she has no level 1 damage. You aren't reading. Her level 1 damage difference DOESN'T MEANINGFULLY CHANGE all the way to level 25. If she is 10 damage down at level 1 (which is generous, usually she's 5 or so damage down depending on the carry) she *can't* be even 20 damage down at level 25. Unless its PL. At which point 20 damage is far less relevant than a myriad of other things. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On October 01 2013 01:31 Acritter wrote: It doesn't NEED to be complex. Carry heroes are fundamentally very simple, especially in this meta. It's either about how well they fight early or how hard they farm. The former category is occupied by Lifestealer and Gyro, and the latter by Alchemist and Antimage. Naga Siren occupies neither category particularly well. Her abysmal base damage heavily cuts into her fighting and farming potential, and then when you compare her to heroes who do those things well, she gets painfully outclassed. To make it perfectly clear and simple: why do YOU think it is that nobody runs Siren carry any longer? Is it because you're smarter than every professional out there? Yes it's complex, if you honestly believe its simple, then theres no point arguing with you because you simply don't play enough dota And naga carry is perfectly viable in this patch | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On October 01 2013 01:37 Erasme wrote: Yes it's complex, if you honestly believe its simple, then theres no point arguing with you because you simply don't play enough dota So then why is carry Siren unused since TI2, while PL had a huge heyday in the West prior to people figuring him out (and the nerf) and is still occasionally used these days? You have nothing on your side but vapid speculation. On October 01 2013 01:35 Sn0_Man wrote: You aren't reading. Her level 1 damage difference DOESN'T MEANINGFULLY CHANGE all the way to level 25. If she is 10 damage down at level 1 (which is generous, usually she's 5 or so damage down depending on the carry) she *can't* be even 20 damage down at level 25. Unless its PL. At which point 20 damage is far less relevant than a myriad of other things. Comparison was explicitly to PL. | ||
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