EPTGeneral Discussion - Page 4027
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 01 2013 01:38 Acritter wrote: Comparison was explicitly to PL. Which is a shitty comparison regardless. The two are way too different for you to make that comparison. Naga split-push/solo-farming is far, far safer vs. competent teams. | ||
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Oktyabr
Singapore2234 Posts
On October 01 2013 01:31 Acritter wrote: It doesn't NEED to be complex. Carry heroes are fundamentally very simple, especially in this meta. It's either about how well they fight early or how hard they farm. The former category is occupied by Lifestealer and Gyro, and the latter by Alchemist and Antimage. Naga Siren occupies neither category particularly well. Her abysmal base damage heavily cuts into her fighting and farming potential, and then when you compare her to heroes who do those things well, she gets painfully outclassed. To make it perfectly clear and simple: why do YOU think it is that nobody runs Siren carry any longer? Is it because you're smarter than every professional out there? you know if that argument actually holds true, the DOTA meta will stay stuck for years without Ice Frog's input? This isn't about being smarter than pros; there are actually many SEA pro games that make use of carry naga. This is a matter of having a deep understanding of that specific hero and the draft being played around her - not every team is going to know how to execute the gameplay without a lot of prior practice, and this applies to other under-used heroes as well. just look at alliance - they never ever play morphling post TI2, and so do many other pro teams, definitely not at the frequency which iG, Fnatic, or MiTH do up till now. | ||
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trinxified
Canada7774 Posts
But on Naga, there's too many counters to her during early-mid game to prevent her from farming effectively. Then that forces the team to draft around her which isn't ideal anymore in the current meta. She doesn't even have a reliable escape other than Song, which is too high of a cooldown at early levels, and could be disrupting at times. Nonetheless, this doesn't mean she can't hard carry. In fact she's better than most other hard carries if the farm is there. | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
On October 01 2013 01:31 Acritter wrote: It doesn't NEED to be complex. Carry heroes are fundamentally very simple, especially in this meta. It's either about how well they fight early or how hard they farm. The former category is occupied by Lifestealer and Gyro, and the latter by Alchemist and Antimage. Naga Siren occupies neither category particularly well. Her abysmal base damage heavily cuts into her fighting and farming potential, and then when you compare her to heroes who do those things well, she gets painfully outclassed. To make it perfectly clear and simple: why do YOU think it is that nobody runs Siren carry any longer? Is it because you're smarter than every professional out there? Before we go to 'why nobody runs naga in ti3', which is a completely different topic from 'is naga a good carry or not', assuming your thinking is as simple as 'naga shitty carry = nobody picked her in ti3', while you just said 'Carry heroes are fundamentally very simple, especially in this meta', why dont you every team switched their weakest link on carry. I mean, i am having headache to understand why suddenly NA dota = No.1 dota after TI3, as if [A] and Navi had anything to do with NA dota at all. Or maybe I should remind you that at least 2+ metagame changes happened in this version, your last statement is hilarious. I guess we have come back to the point that seeing people blindly follow whatever happened in the pro games and actually believe everything in what pros did. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On October 01 2013 01:40 Erasme wrote: Naga was unused after ti2 due to various nerf, people still dont use her because the last time a team did, it was aui2k and he was beyond awful on her Yes... and nerfs make a hero BAD. Naga Siren is bad at carrying and is good at support. On October 01 2013 01:45 Oktyabr wrote: you know if that argument actually holds true, the DOTA meta will stay stuck for years without Ice Frog's input? This isn't about being smarter than pros; there are actually many SEA pro games that make use of carry naga. This is a matter of having a deep understanding of that specific hero and the draft being played around her - not every team is going to know how to execute the gameplay without a lot of prior practice, and this applies to other under-used heroes as well. just look at alliance - they never ever play morphling post TI2, and so do many other pro teams, definitely not at the frequency which iG, Fnatic, or MiTH do up till now. Well... yes, that's exactly what would happen. If Icefrog just got up and left and we all kept playing, we'd probably figure out a couple cool new things over the next few years, but really, not much would change. Visage would never stop being a good support. Alch would never stop being a good carry. Trilanes would continue to be dominant. It's like if people stopped making maps for Broodwar back in the early 00s. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On October 01 2013 01:53 BurningSera wrote: Before we go to 'why nobody runs naga in ti3', which is a completely different topic from 'is naga a good carry or not', assuming your thinking is as simple as 'naga shitty carry = nobody picked her in ti3', while you just said 'Carry heroes are fundamentally very simple, especially in this meta', why dont you every team switched their weakest link on carry. I mean, i am having headache to understand why suddenly NA dota = No.1 dota after TI3, as if [A] and Navi had anything to do with NA dota at all. Or maybe I should remind you that at least 2+ metagame changes happened in this version, your last statement is hilarious. I guess we have come back to the point that seeing people blindly follow whatever happened in the pro games and actually believe everything in what pros did. There are a couple sentences there that I really can't understand the meaning of. Can you do a quick proofread and then shoot it back to me? | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
On October 01 2013 01:56 Acritter wrote: Yes... and nerfs make a hero BAD. Naga Siren is bad at carrying and is good at support. I believe you meant EGM's support Naga. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
Btw noone is saying naga is a bad support, we're saying shes a viable carry | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On October 01 2013 02:00 BurningSera wrote: I believe you meant EGM's support Naga. ...And FLUFF's Naga, and I believe Kuroky is starting to pick her up... Alliance is insane with her, yes. That means everyone else is just good. On October 01 2013 02:00 Erasme wrote: I don't exactly believe that you know better than me which hero is a good carry and which one isn't, try carry naga after you can last hit with sub 50damages Btw noone is saying naga is a bad support, we're saying shes a viable carry Ad hominem attack, very classy. Again, you're fighting against every body of evidence there is. | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
On October 01 2013 01:58 Acritter wrote: There are a couple sentences there that I really can't understand the meaning of. Can you do a quick proofread and then shoot it back to me? No don't bother, my post wasn't mean to discuss anything with you, it was a rant on 'i don't understand how can some people blindly follow whatever the pros did'. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On October 01 2013 02:03 BurningSera wrote: No don't bother, my post wasn't mean to discuss anything with you, it was a rant on 'i don't understand how can some people blindly follow whatever the pros did'. Fair enough. It's also worth noting that there were at least 2 changes to CM in this version, though. | ||
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trinxified
Canada7774 Posts
diffusal 2, butterfly, heart, treads/travels, manta, abyssal/AC. 1v1 against PL would depend on whether PL can generate more illusions BEFORE the fight. But if they both start out as is, then Naga wins no problem. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On October 01 2013 01:16 Acritter wrote: Naga's base damage is WAY too low. It makes LHD ridiculously difficult, and she doesn't have the jacked stat gain of PL to make up for it. how is it an ad hominem attack when you say it yourself? | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On October 01 2013 02:05 trinxified wrote: In fact I can't think of a better hard carry with similar farm networth than Naga. Maybe only Void if it's a 1v1 man mode, but that doesn't count since Void shits on any hero anyway with Chrono. The Chinese did some silly test a while back, and Slardar came out on top. Spoiler: saying something like "similar farm networth" makes your judgment pretty close to as worthless as the Slardar victory. On October 01 2013 02:06 Erasme wrote: how is it an ad hominem attack when you say it yourself? You don't know what ad hominem is, I see... You're attacking me, the arguer, instead of my argument. This demonstrates an inability to actually handle the argument. Let's put it this way, even ignoring your fallacious tendencies. You come out saying that a good player can get "every last hit" with Naga Siren, when professional carries will regularly miss a few last hits in lane even with a 50-60 damage carry and even with good lane control. Can you even imagine how painful the Siren's lane will become if she's forced to last hit under tower by LD/NP creep pulls, or if she goes up against a trilane? She's only able to mid because she can bottlecrow Rip Tide. That's not an option in the safe lane. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On October 01 2013 02:05 trinxified wrote: In fact I can't think of a better hard carry with similar farm networth than Naga. Maybe only Void if it's a 1v1 man mode, but that doesn't count since Void shits on any hero anyway with Chrono. ? Practically all of them... Naga's key "carry" attribute is that she farms quite rapidly BEFORE she gets big items. The illusions are certainly decent for manfighting as well but they don't really constitute a top-tier steroid skill (see: CK). | ||
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trinxified
Canada7774 Posts
On October 01 2013 02:09 Sn0_Man wrote: ? Practically all of them... Naga's key "carry" attribute is that she farms quite rapidly BEFORE she gets big items. The illusions are certainly decent for manfighting as well but they don't really constitute a top-tier steroid skill (see: CK). Oh I forgot about CK. Oops.  | ||
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BlitzerSC
Italy8800 Posts
LOL @ comparing an ultimate with 140 secs cooldown with a spammable low cost low cd normal skill. On October 01 2013 02:07 Acritter wrote: The Chinese did some silly test a while back, and Slardar came out on top. Spoiler: saying something like "similar farm networth" makes your judgment pretty close to as worthless as the Slardar victory. You don't know what ad hominem is, I see... You're attacking me, the arguer, instead of my argument. This demonstrates an inability to actually handle the argument. Let's put it this way, even ignoring your fallacious tendencies. You come out saying that a good player can get "every last hit" with Naga Siren, when professional carries will regularly miss a few last hits in lane even with a 50-60 damage carry and even with good lane control. Can you even imagine how painful the Siren's lane will become if she's forced to last hit under tower by LD/NP creep pulls, or if she goes up against a trilane? She's only able to mid because she can bottlecrow Rip Tide. That's not an option in the safe lane. You only have low damage for the first 2 levels, after that you are fine and if you are having trouble last hitting you can always buy a quelling blade. | ||
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Oktyabr
Singapore2234 Posts
On October 01 2013 02:02 Acritter wrote: ...And FLUFF's Naga, and I believe Kuroky is starting to pick her up... Alliance is insane with her, yes. That means everyone else is just good. Ad hominem attack, very classy. Again, you're fighting against every body of evidence there is. On the topic of fallacies, do you realize that you're repeatedly committing an appeal to ignorance by claiming that naga is a bad carry because there's little evidence of her doing well as a carry in this version? I don't think the concept that some of us here are trying to bring across is that hard to grasp - naga is a better carry than the conventional ones we see these days based on different circumstances and lineups. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On October 01 2013 02:12 BlitzerSC wrote: Have you ever seen a Naga siren with radiance ? LOL @ comparing an ultimate with 140 secs cooldown with a spammable low cost low cd normal skill. I'm curious as to your definition of "low cd" and "spammable"? Certainly mirror image is used very often but compare it to even PL's Phantom Lance ability if you want to know about Low-CD Spammable illusion creation skills. I wasn't comparing the abilities inherently, I was discussing their usefulness as "steroid skills" enabling a hero as a carry. Its pretty clear which one is superior in a manfight. Obviously mirror image's lower CD makes it superior for farming purposes over the course of the game. | ||
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