EPTGeneral Discussion - Page 4028
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Shaella
United States14828 Posts
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On October 01 2013 02:14 Oktyabr wrote: On the topic of fallacies, do you realize that you're repeatedly committing an appeal to ignorance by claiming that naga is a bad carry because there's little evidence of her doing well as a carry in this version? I don't think the concept that some of us here are trying to bring across is that hard to grasp - naga is a better carry than the conventional ones we see these days based on different circumstances and lineups. It's not an appeal to ignorance, because there is no greater evidence than "nobody does it, and since they try to do what wins, it doesn't work." There's no greater body of evidence that's being ignored, except to state that everyone is currently playing the game incorrectly. Different circumstances and lineups is a poor excuse, because if you follow that road far enough, it'll quickly lead to other flaws and weaknesses. If you have to do tons of setup to make a hero viable, then you're going to be showing your hand catastrophically far too early. It's the same reason why nobody has done a level 1 Rosh since Alliance showed us an entirely new way of doing it in G-1, and the same reason why KotL+PL fell off in competitive even before the nerf. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
For reference, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=428296 | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
On October 01 2013 02:05 Acritter wrote: Fair enough. It's also worth noting that there were at least 2 changes to CM in this version, though. But don't pegionhole yourself to think that 'pros dont do it = invalid', who are the people come out with better strategy to beat the popular strategy? Pros themselves. The metagame in dota is about whatever team can come up with a better understanding of the map and the heroes (that they are good at). The fun part of watching pro game is to see how can these competitive players come up with something different/new to beat something that seems to be dominant at certain time frame. And i don't think fluff/kuroky's naga is anywhere near egm's naga, which is funny caused carry naga is sort of a chinese thing, maybe there is something in swedish that makes support naga to work better. See I am talking random shit again in one post lol. | ||
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BlitzerSC
Italy8800 Posts
On October 01 2013 02:19 Shaella wrote: I'm just gonna go ahead and throw it out there that most carries that NEED radiance to carry are cabbage I repeat, have you ever seen Naga siren with radiance ? If you did then you would probably realize how strong it is. On October 01 2013 02:18 Sn0_Man wrote: I'm curious as to your definition of "low cd" and "spammable"? Certainly mirror image is used very often but compare it to even PL's Phantom Lance ability if you want to know about Low-CD Spammable illusion creation skills. Too bad PL illusions are quite bad while Naga's illusions are the best you can get for a non ultimate skill. And with PL you are literally hoping that your dopplewalk illusion is gonna last long enough to spawn a bunch of others, which won't happen quite often since it's all RNG. 100 mana = spammable ( for a carry, ofc ) 40 secs cd when your illusions last for 30 = low cd. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On October 01 2013 02:22 BurningSera wrote: But don't pegionhole yourself to think that 'pros dont do it = invalid', who are the people come out with better strategy to beat the popular strategy? Pros themselves. The metagame in dota is about whatever team can come up with a better understanding of the map and the heroes (that they are good at). The fun part of watching pro game is to see how can these competitive players come up with something different/new to beat something that seems to be dominant at certain time frame. And i don't think fluff/kuroky's naga is any way near egm's naga, which is funny caused carry naga is sort of a chinese thing, maybe there is something in swedish that makes support naga work better. See I am talking random shit again in one post lol. It's not pigeonholing oneself to see that people have had huge opportunity (see prior post) to run Siren as carry, and have either chosen not to or failed abysmally (or been kyxy). EGM's Naga is superb. FLUFF and other such players are merely good. | ||
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Fatalize
France5210 Posts
Naga wasnt even picked for her carry potential during TI2. The only reason she was #1 is because teams were relying on Sleep with a low cd to set up their wombo combos. We saw mostly Linken's rush on her last year too, which makes her a complete non-factor as a carry Also, LOL@ people saying Naga would beat most carries except Void, or that PL illusions are a lot worse than Naga's. Naga doesnt stand a chance against most carries. Sure Naga's illusions are stronger on paper than PL's, but implying that Naga will carry more than PL with her illusions is pure stupidity | ||
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Caladbolg
2855 Posts
On October 01 2013 02:07 Acritter wrote: The Chinese did some silly test a while back, and Slardar came out on top. Spoiler: saying something like "similar farm networth" makes your judgment pretty close to as worthless as the Slardar victory. You don't know what ad hominem is, I see... You're attacking me, the arguer, instead of my argument. This demonstrates an inability to actually handle the argument. Let's put it this way, even ignoring your fallacious tendencies. You come out saying that a good player can get "every last hit" with Naga Siren, when professional carries will regularly miss a few last hits in lane even with a 50-60 damage carry and even with good lane control. Can you even imagine how painful the Siren's lane will become if she's forced to last hit under tower by LD/NP creep pulls, or if she goes up against a trilane? She's only able to mid because she can bottlecrow Rip Tide. That's not an option in the safe lane. Wasn't Slardar just top 2? Certainly surprising, still. Anyway, I think the argument has run its course. Honestly I think carry Naga is perfectly viable, but the skills are just so good outside the carry category that I prefer to see her as a support just so someone else can carry. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 01 2013 02:32 Caladbolg wrote: Wasn't Slardar just top 2? Certainly surprising, still. It's mostly off the strength of Amplify Damage, which isn't all that surprising. The main thing is that Slardar does not need to be a 1 role farmer in order for his carry to benefit from Amplify Damage. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On October 01 2013 02:34 TheYango wrote: It's mostly off the strength of Amplify Damage, which isn't all that surprising. The main thing is that Slardar does not need to be a 1 role farmer in order for his carry to benefit from Amplify Damage. Unfortunately he's a terrible 2/3/4/5 | ||
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Oktyabr
Singapore2234 Posts
On October 01 2013 02:19 Acritter wrote: It's not an appeal to ignorance, because there is no greater evidence than "nobody does it, and since they try to do what wins, it doesn't work." There's no greater body of evidence that's being ignored, except to state that everyone is currently playing the game incorrectly. Different circumstances and lineups is a poor excuse, because if you follow that road far enough, it'll quickly lead to other flaws and weaknesses. If you have to do tons of setup to make a hero viable, then you're going to be showing your hand catastrophically far too early. It's the same reason why nobody has done a level 1 Rosh since Alliance showed us an entirely new way of doing it in G-1, and the same reason why KotL+PL fell off in competitive even before the nerf. You've just ignored the possibility of pro teams not having any good ideas on how to run a carry naga - that is the appeal to ignorance, and you should actually try looking up some of MiTH games in the past few months where they have had success with it. That is precisely why you are stuck in circles in some narrow minded logic. DOTA isn't an exact of science involving A>B>C>D. It is about asymmetrical information - where one side usually has a deeper understanding in one aspect of the game and exploiting this advantage to the fullest to win, and then every other team out there starts playing catch up after seeing what has happened. Are we saying that carry naga will come back in full force? No. What we're saying is carry naga is applicable SOME TIMES - and not utter trash in her current state. btw vp succeeded in carrying out the tp lvl 1 rosh in ti3 group stage game 2 against tongfu. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
Slardar was picked mid once or twice in dota2, was way back before ta was in and against invoker | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
He's fine as 2/3 but the awkward thing is that he's a 2/3 that you usually have to freefarm safe lane, so you have to somehow draft him in a comp that has a 1 role that's not your safe lane free-farmer. That's not exactly out of the question, but its a bit less flexible to draft. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14081 Posts
On October 01 2013 01:31 Acritter wrote: It doesn't NEED to be complex. Carry heroes are fundamentally very simple, especially in this meta. It's either about how well they fight early or how hard they farm. The former category is occupied by Lifestealer and Gyro, and the latter by Alchemist and Antimage. Naga Siren occupies neither category particularly well. Her abysmal base damage heavily cuts into her fighting and farming potential, and then when you compare her to heroes who do those things well, she gets painfully outclassed. To make it perfectly clear and simple: why do YOU think it is that nobody runs Siren carry any longer? Is it because you're smarter than every professional out there? People don't do what is good, people do what they think is good. Being a professional doesn't magically make you immune to trends or bias. In direct comparison to TI2 the current version is less teamfight and more mapcontrol oriented. Funnily enough some of the carries that stand out when it comes to safe mapcontrol and playing against strong mapcontrol are Morphling and Naga. Claiming that Nagas level 16 isn't important when it comes to splitpushing and/or mapcontrol later in the game is just being ignorant. The low base damage is a valid argument in 3n3 lanes but no argument at all in 3n1 lanes. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On October 01 2013 02:39 Erasme wrote: Slardar was picked mid once or twice in dota2, was way back before ta was in and against invoker Its the only realistic place for him instead of a 1 position, but he has no ability to nuke down the wave (his stun does 50 damage per level LOL), so he literally hopes his decent base damage/hp/armor/animation gets him by as a melee hero. Its pretty pathetic unfortunately. | ||
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trinxified
Canada7774 Posts
On October 01 2013 02:43 Sn0_Man wrote: Its the only realistic place for him instead of a 1 position, but he has no ability to nuke down the wave (his stun does 50 damage per level LOL), so he literally hopes his decent base damage/hp/armor/animation gets him by as a melee hero. Its pretty pathetic unfortunately. To be fair, his stun is physical damage, so it goes up with his amp damage. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On October 01 2013 02:19 Shaella wrote: I'm just gonna go ahead and throw it out there that most carries that NEED radiance to carry are cabbage Tell me about these cabbage carries and their place in the meta. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On October 01 2013 02:51 Plansix wrote: Tell me about these cabbage carries and their place in the meta. Being cabbage, they are proficient at Rooting their enemies (at least, one is and he's the only decent radiance carrier around). | ||
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Shaella
United States14828 Posts
On October 01 2013 02:51 Plansix wrote: Tell me about these cabbage carries and their place in the meta. They don't have one, because they're cabbage | ||
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