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United States47024 Posts
On April 13 2012 10:58 gosuMalicE wrote:
Well compare Heart to Halberd + vit booster. Halberd + vit costs 500 gold less and trades -20str for +25 damage, +25%evasion and an amazing active capable of removing a carry from a fight. I have a hard time beleiveing heart is the better choice there.
You're deliberately choosing to ignore the absolutely amazing Heart regen effect?
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plus heart only takes one slot
vanguard is nice since a lot of the time you need a roh in lane anyway and the vit booster is really nice
hood isn't that great unless you're going for pipe or they have a million nukes but very few disables
but lothars is the way to go yo
u go invisible and u run really fast
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On April 13 2012 10:59 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 10:58 gosuMalicE wrote:
Well compare Heart to Halberd + vit booster. Halberd + vit costs 500 gold less and trades -20str for +25 damage, +25%evasion and an amazing active capable of removing a carry from a fight. I have a hard time beleiveing heart is the better choice there. You're deliberately choosing to ignore the absolutely amazing Heart regen effect?
The bonus regen is nice, but doesn't really add to teamfight potential in the same way halberd does.
EDIT: hmm i never realised how much hp 20 str actually was, im thinking that after i get the vit booster, ill skip vanguard, go yasha -> SnY -> halberd then finish heart instead of manta. (although to be fair the game often ends before the need for that last item) The extra gold from not finishing vanguard & manta should be enough to not change the timing much other then allowing a faster midgame build.
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i started to read blog of team PMS.asterisk.
and damn they are so adorable :3
+ Show Spoiler +
why so qtpie~
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Just because he is maxing skin 2nd doesn't mean he will even remotely get Heart in time to work in conjunction with it. Although I agree that Vanguard is kind of lackluster, considering you're getting both HH + Manta, decent survivability items. Replacing Vit B with Drums+Turning one of your Wraith bands into Ring of Aquila would be a better, more offensive alternative. Or even a Pipe, but I think just Drums+Aquila would be best. Overall you're not building an MKB or Buriza, you will have overall tankiness, so having the VanG feels redundant, you could spend that gold buying an Ogre Axe or Mithril Hammer (BKB) way better survivability than a VanG will ever provide.
TLDR : Drop the Vit B in place for Jango +Aquila or Ogre Axe for future BKB(way more useful than a Vang will ever be).
Edit - If you get Yasha, you should really finish Manta. I don't think Yango is pitching getting Heart over what is a Core fundamental dps item.
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On April 13 2012 11:22 Slardar wrote:
Just because he is maxing skin 2nd doesn't mean he will even remotely get Heart in time to work in conjunction with it. Although I agree that Vanguard is kind of lackluster, considering you're getting both HH + Manta, decent survivability items. Replacing Vit B with Drums+Wand would be a better, more offensive alternative. Or even a Pipe, but I think just Drums+Wand would be best. Overall you're not building an MKB or Buriza, you will have overall tankiness, so having the VanG feels redundant, you could spend that gold buying an Ogre Axe or Mithril Hammer (BKB) way better survivability than a VanG will ever provide.
TLDR : Drop the Vit B in place for Jango (both offense+defense) or Ogre Axe for future BKB(way more useful than a Vang will ever be).
Edit - If you get Yasha, you should really finish Manta. I don't think Yango is pitching getting Heart over what is a Core fundamental dps item.
The early yasha is key for the movespeed boost which in addition to his orb gives him his insane midgame ganking potential.
With the majority of vipers damage coming from his skills completing the manta is not that great in teams of dps compared to items which allow him to stay alive and stacking dot longer. Thats why i completed it last (for use in pushing towers lategame) and consider it the most expendable part of the build I do infact get bkb from time to time, it is rather situational however and i only really consider it if the enemy team has hex or significant single target disables.
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konadora
Singapore66366 Posts
On April 13 2012 10:32 Kupon3ss wrote:
just grab 2 relics and ur good
I see what u did there
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I find that with manta and skin that its almost never worth to go BKB. I mean if they have stupid amounts of CC you probably still want it, but a lot of the time just eating the CC and being tanky in the middle of the fight is enough to win the fight. If they have lots of nukes pipe is imo a better choice most of the time.
If they have no magic nukes and you really need the RoH for laning, then vanguard is fine, but it shouldn't be core. Halberd is good if they have a few powerful auto-attackers (especially huskar and ursa), but you are agi so butterfly is also a great source of evasion, so I would only go it if you REALLY need the active.
My normal build is basic laning stuff --> (maybe RoH) --> PTs+vit --> drums or RoH based item (maybe both)--> manta and then luxuries (heart butterfly MKB are the normal ones I consider).
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Make mekanism on viper. Treads mek ring of aquila wand, building towards agh scepter makes viper ridiculously tanky mid game.
Hood is pretty bad because of diminishing return on magic resistance and mek is just mathematically superior to vanguard. And viper actually really needs the ~8 armour mek provides midgame.
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On April 13 2012 13:20 Validity wrote:
Make mekanism on viper. Treads mek ring of aquila wand, building towards agh scepter makes viper ridiculously tanky mid game.
Hood is pretty bad because of diminishing return on magic resistance and mek is just mathematically superior to vanguard. And viper actually really needs the ~8 armour mek provides midgame.
You almost always want to be going Pipe, if not that Hood money could be better spent else where (maybe just a vit Booster). Nonetheless, even with diminishing returns Hood is a great Viper item as he is one of the few heroes that benefit a lot from regen and having the ability to last through fights, kinda the reason why you don't see many BkB's on Viper as he doesn't do a whole lot very quickly for it to be crucial.
Viper usually doesn't have the mana to support a mek around the time he can finish, Mek is quite in-expensive for a carry/semi-carry.
Also you take away getting a Mek on one of your support/semi-support heroes, which is a big loss for them as there aren't many items in the game that they can feasibly get in a reasonable time that provide as much utility as a Mek. Hence why you see Vipers pick up Pipes, etc, as it is quite expensive but unlike supports he gets the time to farm it.
Very few people finish Vanguard on ranged heroes these days, it is usually always end up going Vit Booster -> RoH-> Pipe or just vit booster left by itself. The extra effect on Vanguard is nice but after the Vit booster you get to the stage of the game where you need to start making some decent items, spending an extra 1k to finish off the Vanguard these days isn't very ideal
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On April 13 2012 14:03 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 13:20 Validity wrote:
Make mekanism on viper. Treads mek ring of aquila wand, building towards agh scepter makes viper ridiculously tanky mid game.
Hood is pretty bad because of diminishing return on magic resistance and mek is just mathematically superior to vanguard. And viper actually really needs the ~8 armour mek provides midgame. You almost always want to be going Pipe, if not that Hood money could be better spent else where (maybe just a vit Booster). Nonetheless, even with diminishing returns Hood is a great Viper item as he is one of the few heroes that benefit a lot from regen and having the ability to last through fights, kinda the reason why you don't see many BkB's on Viper as he doesn't do a whole lot very quickly for it to be crucial. Viper usually doesn't have the mana to support a mek around the time he can finish, Mek is quite in-expensive for a carry/semi-carry. Also you take away getting a Mek on one of your support/semi-support heroes, which is a big loss for them as there aren't many items in the game that they can feasibly get in a reasonable time that provide as much utility as a Mek. Hence why you see Vipers pick up Pipes, etc, as it is quite expensive but unlike supports he gets the time to farm it. Very few people finish Vanguard on ranged heroes these days, it is usually always end up going Vit Booster -> RoH-> Pipe or just vit booster left by itself. The extra effect on Vanguard is nice but after the Vit booster you get to the stage of the game where you need to start making some decent items, spending an extra 1k to finish off the Vanguard these days isn't very ideal
Mek gives viper way more survivability than a pipe does. Pipe gives viper an additional ~16% magic resistance and a 400 barrier that does not interact with viper's already increased magic resistance.
Viper is usually played as a 1 or 2. The 5 role isn't going to farm a mek in time for it to be team fight changing like a sub 15 minute mekanism on viper. The 4 role usually needs other items like blink (and also can farm a pipe). The 3 role is actually able to farm a pipe most of the time and is usually a hero that will benefit from the full magic resistance of pipe.
Viper has plenty of mana for mek between tread swapping, wand, and ring of aquila. I'm not going to tell you to just blindly trust me and go mekanism on viper, but I'd like for you to at least try it/work out the math behind it before dismissing the build. I know I've already done that, and mek looks really good to me on viper. Plus I've beaten some of the best teams in the world off a mek viper carry to give the build some anecdotal evidence.
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United States47024 Posts
I don't understand how people call magic resist stacking multiplicatively "diminishing returns". If I had a 50% magic resistance effect, It would take twice as many spells to kill me. If I had another 50% magic resistance effect, it would again take twice as many spells to kill me. Even though it's only 25% "more" magic resist, it's not diminishing returns. If they stacked additively, it would be infinitely better.
Stacking additively on that shit wouldn't be normal. It'd be stupidly strong.
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
On April 13 2012 10:32 Kupon3ss wrote:
just grab 2 relics and ur good
casually
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Awwww, I'm so bumped that rd doesn't show all the heroes in a circle where you can take your pick from.
Now it's so lame. Q_Q
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So I just saw something that made me wonder if it's a viable strat:
Enigma blackholes, allied Pudge hooks away Enigma, but the bhole is still going on/Enig is still channeling from far.
thoughts?
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Does swap has the same effect ?
allied swap
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Swap interrupts channeling whereas allied hook doesn't, so no.
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On April 13 2012 15:55 Steveling wrote:
Awwww, I'm so bumped that rd doesn't show all the heroes in a circle where you can take your pick from.
Now it's so lame. Q_Q
the UI of dota2 still needs a ton of work... i wouldnt be surprised if there are some few major changes before the game is released. Also im hoping for customizable UI like TF2
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On April 13 2012 10:16 gosuMalicE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 09:57 TheYango wrote:
I don't really like ranged vanguard after the nerfs.
If I'm doing well in lane and don't need the HP regen, I'll grab Janggo on Viper. If I need the regen, I'll turn RoH into Hood rather than Vanguard. The Vit Booster can be saved for Heart. Well thats kind of the area i'm iffy about, I realize that the vit booster is really nice to have and usually build it into a vanguard because it gives more early tankiness when my inv is already full, and i dont feel heart is worth it for the $ on viper at least. Would it be viable to just get an ogre club instead of a vit booster, and use it to get an earlier SnY or perhaps an ult stick instead, and just skip the vanguard altogether? I've thought about it but im not sure if giving up that little bit of extra midgame tankiness would allow me to pull of the crazy ganks that i have been doing.
Earlier SnY?
What?
Why the hell would you ever get a SnY on viper unless you KNOW you'll need a halberd?
Which isn't often, and halberd is blocked by BKB.
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Ok, so did valve go blizzard on us this time? I cant see my win-losses with specific heroes anymore, only amount of games played 
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EPT![[image loading]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_TqPiuB4JxQY/TUEdG7JEm9I/AAAAAAAAB7Y/8jxB-jtGtIo/s1600/163850_488015573589_569378589_6171698_6479052_n.jpg)
