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On April 13 2012 14:34 Validity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 14:03 Dommk wrote:On April 13 2012 13:20 Validity wrote:
Make mekanism on viper. Treads mek ring of aquila wand, building towards agh scepter makes viper ridiculously tanky mid game.
Hood is pretty bad because of diminishing return on magic resistance and mek is just mathematically superior to vanguard. And viper actually really needs the ~8 armour mek provides midgame. You almost always want to be going Pipe, if not that Hood money could be better spent else where (maybe just a vit Booster). Nonetheless, even with diminishing returns Hood is a great Viper item as he is one of the few heroes that benefit a lot from regen and having the ability to last through fights, kinda the reason why you don't see many BkB's on Viper as he doesn't do a whole lot very quickly for it to be crucial. Viper usually doesn't have the mana to support a mek around the time he can finish, Mek is quite in-expensive for a carry/semi-carry. Also you take away getting a Mek on one of your support/semi-support heroes, which is a big loss for them as there aren't many items in the game that they can feasibly get in a reasonable time that provide as much utility as a Mek. Hence why you see Vipers pick up Pipes, etc, as it is quite expensive but unlike supports he gets the time to farm it. Very few people finish Vanguard on ranged heroes these days, it is usually always end up going Vit Booster -> RoH-> Pipe or just vit booster left by itself. The extra effect on Vanguard is nice but after the Vit booster you get to the stage of the game where you need to start making some decent items, spending an extra 1k to finish off the Vanguard these days isn't very ideal Mek gives viper way more survivability than a pipe does. Pipe gives viper an additional ~16% magic resistance and a 400 barrier that does not interact with viper's already increased magic resistance. Viper is usually played as a 1 or 2. The 5 role isn't going to farm a mek in time for it to be team fight changing like a sub 15 minute mekanism on viper. The 4 role usually needs other items like blink (and also can farm a pipe). The 3 role is actually able to farm a pipe most of the time and is usually a hero that will benefit from the full magic resistance of pipe. Viper has plenty of mana for mek between tread swapping, wand, and ring of aquila. I'm not going to tell you to just blindly trust me and go mekanism on viper, but I'd like for you to at least try it/work out the math behind it before dismissing the build. I know I've already done that, and mek looks really good to me on viper. Plus I've beaten some of the best teams in the world off a mek viper carry to give the build some anecdotal evidence.
A Mek may mathematically provide better protection for a Viper than a Hood or Vanguard but the majority of the Mek's protective benefits comes from it's active ability, which you can benefit from just as much if it were on another hero. You can argue the same about pipe but the cost of pipe kinda makes it harder to justify.
That is why I argue Mek may not be the best choice, but ultimately it will come down to your team composition. I'm not doubting it is a good item, but I'm just saying if there is another hero that is also capable of going a Mek--by which I mean, non-ward bitches i.e Wind Runner. SD, Enchantress, Secondary support, etc then it is probably better to just let them get the Mek whilst you build towards something more meaningful i.e Pipe, etc.
But I don't disagree with what you said, I would get Mek over a Vanguard or Hood (no pipe), mostly because I feel those items are a waste of money on ranged heroes lately.
EDIT:
Thinking more about it, just going off the same justification you used for Viper and V.gaurd/Hood, you could also extend the same logic to a hero like Razor who also tends to build a bit like Viper does with his first few items? Seems pretty interesting...I play a lot of Razor but I've always disliked spending so much money on a V.guard but it always seems that you need that Vit booster one way or another, a Mek might not be a bad substitute
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
On April 13 2012 16:01 DoNotDisturb wrote:
So I just saw something that made me wonder if it's a viable strat:
Enigma blackholes, allied Pudge hooks away Enigma, but the bhole is still going on/Enig is still channeling from far.
thoughts?
You totally watched a game my friends were playing.
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The removal of losses is ridiculous, so sick of crap like this.
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I guess to many people were talking about performance rising after loses or something :/
I don't care really but it was nice to know how I'm doing with jakiro 
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so doom is incredibly fun. Just wondering if anyone else loves playing doom and what your favorite builds are on him. I really like going midas first, into treads, shadow blade, domi, then either orchid or linkins, AC, satanic, then sell midas for either heart or basher ->abyssal. Seems like I can't be useful enough in the mid game with it though, and by the time I get enough farm to own the other team my teams fed them.
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On April 13 2012 17:45 flamewheel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 16:01 DoNotDisturb wrote:
So I just saw something that made me wonder if it's a viable strat:
Enigma blackholes, allied Pudge hooks away Enigma, but the bhole is still going on/Enig is still channeling from far.
thoughts? You totally watched a game my friends were playing.
actually I was playing in that game, Pudge and Enigma were opponents
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On April 13 2012 17:51 hunts wrote:
so doom is incredibly fun. Just wondering if anyone else loves playing doom and what your favorite builds are on him. I really like going midas first, into treads, shadow blade, domi, then either orchid or linkins, AC, satanic, then sell midas for either heart or basher ->abyssal. Seems like I can't be useful enough in the mid game with it though, and by the time I get enough farm to own the other team my teams fed them.
Some armor is must on doom, you have like 4 armor on level 16 with no items :/ That's why AC is so good. Midas is fun, you have so much gold it's crazy :D Radi is good after VG as you can just stand there with scorched earth and hit for ridiculous damage and you can farm it really fast with devour. Doom has so much gold you can do just anything.
I used to go caster doom and abuse LVL?Death! (best skill name in the game) by going mana heavy and just nuking everybody down while having free skill points at levels 5 and 7 to abuse it even more. But I like to money build with midas into whatever the fuck I need now.
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
On April 13 2012 17:54 DoNotDisturb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 17:45 flamewheel wrote:On April 13 2012 16:01 DoNotDisturb wrote:
So I just saw something that made me wonder if it's a viable strat:
Enigma blackholes, allied Pudge hooks away Enigma, but the bhole is still going on/Enig is still channeling from far.
thoughts? You totally watched a game my friends were playing. actually I was playing in that game, Pudge and Enigma were opponents
Which hero were you?
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On April 13 2012 16:57 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 10:16 gosuMalicE wrote:On April 13 2012 09:57 TheYango wrote:
I don't really like ranged vanguard after the nerfs.
If I'm doing well in lane and don't need the HP regen, I'll grab Janggo on Viper. If I need the regen, I'll turn RoH into Hood rather than Vanguard. The Vit Booster can be saved for Heart. Well thats kind of the area i'm iffy about, I realize that the vit booster is really nice to have and usually build it into a vanguard because it gives more early tankiness when my inv is already full, and i dont feel heart is worth it for the $ on viper at least. Would it be viable to just get an ogre club instead of a vit booster, and use it to get an earlier SnY or perhaps an ult stick instead, and just skip the vanguard altogether? I've thought about it but im not sure if giving up that little bit of extra midgame tankiness would allow me to pull of the crazy ganks that i have been doing. Earlier SnY? What? Why the hell would you ever get a SnY on viper unless you KNOW you'll need a halberd? Which isn't often, and halberd is blocked by BKB.
Halberd is core on viper (IMO) and extremely underrated. Dodge is exceptional and works well with his already heavily tanky kit, the active lets you shut down carries and the str gives you hp which in vipers case increases his damage potential. getting SnY after yasha in the early-midgame allows you to keep cheep and powerful items in you inventory rather then selling them early for space (2x wraith bands, treads, wand/tp's, vit booster/vanguard).
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On April 13 2012 18:01 flamewheel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 17:54 DoNotDisturb wrote:On April 13 2012 17:45 flamewheel wrote:On April 13 2012 16:01 DoNotDisturb wrote:
So I just saw something that made me wonder if it's a viable strat:
Enigma blackholes, allied Pudge hooks away Enigma, but the bhole is still going on/Enig is still channeling from far.
thoughts? You totally watched a game my friends were playing. actually I was playing in that game, Pudge and Enigma were opponents Which hero were you?
Venomancer
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On April 13 2012 17:21 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 14:34 Validity wrote:On April 13 2012 14:03 Dommk wrote:On April 13 2012 13:20 Validity wrote:
Make mekanism on viper. Treads mek ring of aquila wand, building towards agh scepter makes viper ridiculously tanky mid game.
Hood is pretty bad because of diminishing return on magic resistance and mek is just mathematically superior to vanguard. And viper actually really needs the ~8 armour mek provides midgame. You almost always want to be going Pipe, if not that Hood money could be better spent else where (maybe just a vit Booster). Nonetheless, even with diminishing returns Hood is a great Viper item as he is one of the few heroes that benefit a lot from regen and having the ability to last through fights, kinda the reason why you don't see many BkB's on Viper as he doesn't do a whole lot very quickly for it to be crucial. Viper usually doesn't have the mana to support a mek around the time he can finish, Mek is quite in-expensive for a carry/semi-carry. Also you take away getting a Mek on one of your support/semi-support heroes, which is a big loss for them as there aren't many items in the game that they can feasibly get in a reasonable time that provide as much utility as a Mek. Hence why you see Vipers pick up Pipes, etc, as it is quite expensive but unlike supports he gets the time to farm it. Very few people finish Vanguard on ranged heroes these days, it is usually always end up going Vit Booster -> RoH-> Pipe or just vit booster left by itself. The extra effect on Vanguard is nice but after the Vit booster you get to the stage of the game where you need to start making some decent items, spending an extra 1k to finish off the Vanguard these days isn't very ideal Mek gives viper way more survivability than a pipe does. Pipe gives viper an additional ~16% magic resistance and a 400 barrier that does not interact with viper's already increased magic resistance. Viper is usually played as a 1 or 2. The 5 role isn't going to farm a mek in time for it to be team fight changing like a sub 15 minute mekanism on viper. The 4 role usually needs other items like blink (and also can farm a pipe). The 3 role is actually able to farm a pipe most of the time and is usually a hero that will benefit from the full magic resistance of pipe. Viper has plenty of mana for mek between tread swapping, wand, and ring of aquila. I'm not going to tell you to just blindly trust me and go mekanism on viper, but I'd like for you to at least try it/work out the math behind it before dismissing the build. I know I've already done that, and mek looks really good to me on viper. Plus I've beaten some of the best teams in the world off a mek viper carry to give the build some anecdotal evidence. A Mek may mathematically provide better protection for a Viper than a Hood or Vanguard but the majority of the Mek's protective benefits comes from it's active ability, which you can benefit from just as much if it were on another hero. You can argue the same about pipe but the cost of pipe kinda makes it harder to justify. That is why I argue Mek may not be the best choice, but ultimately it will come down to your team composition. I'm not doubting it is a good item, but I'm just saying if there is another hero that is also capable of going a Mek--by which I mean, non-ward bitches i.e Wind Runner. SD, Enchantress, Secondary support, etc then it is probably better to just let them get the Mek whilst you build towards something more meaningful i.e Pipe, etc. But I don't disagree with what you said, I would get Mek over a Vanguard or Hood (no pipe), mostly because I feel those items are a waste of money on ranged heroes lately. EDIT: Thinking more about it, just going off the same justification you used for Viper and V.gaurd/Hood, you could also extend the same logic to a hero like Razor who also tends to build a bit like Viper does with his first few items? Seems pretty interesting...I play a lot of Razor but I've always disliked spending so much money on a V.guard but it always seems that you need that Vit booster one way or another, a Mek might not be a bad substitute
Hmm razer, that is the other hero i got for the SnY split into halberd/manta on, try getting sanje instead of vanguard as it gives about the same protection, and the maim chance is really helpful on him.
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how is the maim helpfull on him when he already has a 40% slow orb on every hit and a 80% slow ult....seems more like the maim is a total waste on him
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He's talking about razor not viper.
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Wow, nobody is talking about the awesome Empire vs mTw game 1.
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On April 13 2012 18:17 gosuMalicE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 17:21 Dommk wrote:On April 13 2012 14:34 Validity wrote:On April 13 2012 14:03 Dommk wrote:On April 13 2012 13:20 Validity wrote:
Make mekanism on viper. Treads mek ring of aquila wand, building towards agh scepter makes viper ridiculously tanky mid game.
Hood is pretty bad because of diminishing return on magic resistance and mek is just mathematically superior to vanguard. And viper actually really needs the ~8 armour mek provides midgame. You almost always want to be going Pipe, if not that Hood money could be better spent else where (maybe just a vit Booster). Nonetheless, even with diminishing returns Hood is a great Viper item as he is one of the few heroes that benefit a lot from regen and having the ability to last through fights, kinda the reason why you don't see many BkB's on Viper as he doesn't do a whole lot very quickly for it to be crucial. Viper usually doesn't have the mana to support a mek around the time he can finish, Mek is quite in-expensive for a carry/semi-carry. Also you take away getting a Mek on one of your support/semi-support heroes, which is a big loss for them as there aren't many items in the game that they can feasibly get in a reasonable time that provide as much utility as a Mek. Hence why you see Vipers pick up Pipes, etc, as it is quite expensive but unlike supports he gets the time to farm it. Very few people finish Vanguard on ranged heroes these days, it is usually always end up going Vit Booster -> RoH-> Pipe or just vit booster left by itself. The extra effect on Vanguard is nice but after the Vit booster you get to the stage of the game where you need to start making some decent items, spending an extra 1k to finish off the Vanguard these days isn't very ideal Mek gives viper way more survivability than a pipe does. Pipe gives viper an additional ~16% magic resistance and a 400 barrier that does not interact with viper's already increased magic resistance. Viper is usually played as a 1 or 2. The 5 role isn't going to farm a mek in time for it to be team fight changing like a sub 15 minute mekanism on viper. The 4 role usually needs other items like blink (and also can farm a pipe). The 3 role is actually able to farm a pipe most of the time and is usually a hero that will benefit from the full magic resistance of pipe. Viper has plenty of mana for mek between tread swapping, wand, and ring of aquila. I'm not going to tell you to just blindly trust me and go mekanism on viper, but I'd like for you to at least try it/work out the math behind it before dismissing the build. I know I've already done that, and mek looks really good to me on viper. Plus I've beaten some of the best teams in the world off a mek viper carry to give the build some anecdotal evidence. A Mek may mathematically provide better protection for a Viper than a Hood or Vanguard but the majority of the Mek's protective benefits comes from it's active ability, which you can benefit from just as much if it were on another hero. You can argue the same about pipe but the cost of pipe kinda makes it harder to justify. That is why I argue Mek may not be the best choice, but ultimately it will come down to your team composition. I'm not doubting it is a good item, but I'm just saying if there is another hero that is also capable of going a Mek--by which I mean, non-ward bitches i.e Wind Runner. SD, Enchantress, Secondary support, etc then it is probably better to just let them get the Mek whilst you build towards something more meaningful i.e Pipe, etc. But I don't disagree with what you said, I would get Mek over a Vanguard or Hood (no pipe), mostly because I feel those items are a waste of money on ranged heroes lately. EDIT: Thinking more about it, just going off the same justification you used for Viper and V.gaurd/Hood, you could also extend the same logic to a hero like Razor who also tends to build a bit like Viper does with his first few items? Seems pretty interesting...I play a lot of Razor but I've always disliked spending so much money on a V.guard but it always seems that you need that Vit booster one way or another, a Mek might not be a bad substitute Hmm razer, that is the other hero i got for the SnY split into halberd/manta on, try getting sanje instead of vanguard as it gives about the same protection, and the maim chance is really helpful on him.
That is what I've been doing lately, but whenever I go for SnY I always end up skipping the Yasha and just making Halbred.
Manta feels so...useless on Razor...it just doesn't compliment his skills that well compared to other DPS/Tanky items.
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On April 13 2012 17:51 hunts wrote:
so doom is incredibly fun. Just wondering if anyone else loves playing doom and what your favorite builds are on him. I really like going midas first, into treads, shadow blade, domi, then either orchid or linkins, AC, satanic, then sell midas for either heart or basher ->abyssal. Seems like I can't be useful enough in the mid game with it though, and by the time I get enough farm to own the other team my teams fed them.
Doom with both AC and shiva for the win !
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the whole point of razor is to survive as long as possible in teamfight and drain all the dmg out of DPS hero(disabling them) and use that to counter attack. Based on this i often get basic tank item(vanguard/hood/ghostscepter/linken/evasion talisman) and then proceed to MoM buriza xD. Phase boot is needed to chase and maintain staticlink. Heaven halberd is situational item and should not be count as a core.
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On April 13 2012 17:21 Dommk wrote:
A Mek may mathematically provide better protection for a Viper than a Hood or Vanguard but the majority of the Mek's protective benefits comes from it's active ability, which you can benefit from just as much if it were on another hero. You can argue the same about pipe but the cost of pipe kinda makes it harder to justify.
That is why I argue Mek may not be the best choice, but ultimately it will come down to your team composition. I'm not doubting it is a good item, but I'm just saying if there is another hero that is also capable of going a Mek--by which I mean, non-ward bitches i.e Wind Runner. SD, Enchantress, Secondary support, etc then it is probably better to just let them get the Mek whilst you build towards something more meaningful i.e Pipe, etc.
But I don't disagree with what you said, I would get Mek over a Vanguard or Hood (no pipe), mostly because I feel those items are a waste of money on ranged heroes lately.
EDIT:
Thinking more about it, just going off the same justification you used for Viper and V.gaurd/Hood, you could also extend the same logic to a hero like Razor who also tends to build a bit like Viper does with his first few items? Seems pretty interesting...I play a lot of Razor but I've always disliked spending so much money on a V.guard but it always seems that you need that Vit booster one way or another, a Mek might not be a bad substitute
It's not like if the secondary support doesn't build a mekanism, then they won't use that 2300 gold. Swapping a hood onto your 3 role and a mekanism onto your 1 makes your team overall more tanky due to viper not interacting as well with hood. And having a support with a force staff instead of having to make a mekanism/an earlier mek can be game changing.
There are also a few things that make mekanism on a tanky carry hero really good.
1. A team with a viper will always have the team fight revolving around him. A hero like a WR/SD/chanty may not always catch all of your team's heroes in the 900 aoe active or in doing so they may be putting themselves out of position.
2. The stats other than the active for mekanism are actually very nice on a hero like viper. Half an ulti orb and +5 armour on a hero that desperately needs the armour. Compare this to pipe where in a fight, both the regeneration and the magic resistance are relatively negligible--not to mention going pipe delays viper's damage items (aghs/manta/etc) a significant amount more than mek as you really also have to couple a pipe with an hp item (vit booster/jango) on a hero like viper. Looking purely at what mekanism gives to an individual hero makes it seem imba before you even think about the aoe heal/armour buff: 345 hp 5 dmg 5 ias 65 mana (-150 mana) almost 8 armour +4 hp regen (+a relatively negligible hp/mana regen from stats), not to mention the fact that being able to get headdress/ring of regen to stay in lane is great.
3. The mekanism comes really fast and often before the other team's. As in + 25% to your team's survivability fast, compared to the +15% if a support were to get it 10-15 minutes later. This means that your team effectively has 1250 extra hp early compared to your opponents, which is pretty amazing when you want to limit the other team's map control by destroying their t1 and t2 towers asap.
And yes, I build mekanism on razor too (I like treads wand mek aquila manta skadi with a situational planeswalker).
I do however think that pipe is better on razor than on viper as he better benefits from the magic resistance, but in general I dislike pipe on any carries, as it is pretty expensive for what it gives to the individual hero (in a vacuum scenario, you would never build pipe on a carry if it didn't affect allies at all, whereas mek is still the best mathematical option even disregarding the active affecting allies), and carries should have priority in being the principle beneficiary of items.
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EPT
