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On April 13 2012 18:48 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 18:17 gosuMalicE wrote:On April 13 2012 17:21 Dommk wrote:On April 13 2012 14:34 Validity wrote:On April 13 2012 14:03 Dommk wrote:On April 13 2012 13:20 Validity wrote:
Make mekanism on viper. Treads mek ring of aquila wand, building towards agh scepter makes viper ridiculously tanky mid game.
Hood is pretty bad because of diminishing return on magic resistance and mek is just mathematically superior to vanguard. And viper actually really needs the ~8 armour mek provides midgame. You almost always want to be going Pipe, if not that Hood money could be better spent else where (maybe just a vit Booster). Nonetheless, even with diminishing returns Hood is a great Viper item as he is one of the few heroes that benefit a lot from regen and having the ability to last through fights, kinda the reason why you don't see many BkB's on Viper as he doesn't do a whole lot very quickly for it to be crucial. Viper usually doesn't have the mana to support a mek around the time he can finish, Mek is quite in-expensive for a carry/semi-carry. Also you take away getting a Mek on one of your support/semi-support heroes, which is a big loss for them as there aren't many items in the game that they can feasibly get in a reasonable time that provide as much utility as a Mek. Hence why you see Vipers pick up Pipes, etc, as it is quite expensive but unlike supports he gets the time to farm it. Very few people finish Vanguard on ranged heroes these days, it is usually always end up going Vit Booster -> RoH-> Pipe or just vit booster left by itself. The extra effect on Vanguard is nice but after the Vit booster you get to the stage of the game where you need to start making some decent items, spending an extra 1k to finish off the Vanguard these days isn't very ideal Mek gives viper way more survivability than a pipe does. Pipe gives viper an additional ~16% magic resistance and a 400 barrier that does not interact with viper's already increased magic resistance. Viper is usually played as a 1 or 2. The 5 role isn't going to farm a mek in time for it to be team fight changing like a sub 15 minute mekanism on viper. The 4 role usually needs other items like blink (and also can farm a pipe). The 3 role is actually able to farm a pipe most of the time and is usually a hero that will benefit from the full magic resistance of pipe. Viper has plenty of mana for mek between tread swapping, wand, and ring of aquila. I'm not going to tell you to just blindly trust me and go mekanism on viper, but I'd like for you to at least try it/work out the math behind it before dismissing the build. I know I've already done that, and mek looks really good to me on viper. Plus I've beaten some of the best teams in the world off a mek viper carry to give the build some anecdotal evidence. A Mek may mathematically provide better protection for a Viper than a Hood or Vanguard but the majority of the Mek's protective benefits comes from it's active ability, which you can benefit from just as much if it were on another hero. You can argue the same about pipe but the cost of pipe kinda makes it harder to justify. That is why I argue Mek may not be the best choice, but ultimately it will come down to your team composition. I'm not doubting it is a good item, but I'm just saying if there is another hero that is also capable of going a Mek--by which I mean, non-ward bitches i.e Wind Runner. SD, Enchantress, Secondary support, etc then it is probably better to just let them get the Mek whilst you build towards something more meaningful i.e Pipe, etc. But I don't disagree with what you said, I would get Mek over a Vanguard or Hood (no pipe), mostly because I feel those items are a waste of money on ranged heroes lately. EDIT: Thinking more about it, just going off the same justification you used for Viper and V.gaurd/Hood, you could also extend the same logic to a hero like Razor who also tends to build a bit like Viper does with his first few items? Seems pretty interesting...I play a lot of Razor but I've always disliked spending so much money on a V.guard but it always seems that you need that Vit booster one way or another, a Mek might not be a bad substitute Hmm razer, that is the other hero i got for the SnY split into halberd/manta on, try getting sanje instead of vanguard as it gives about the same protection, and the maim chance is really helpful on him. That is what I've been doing lately, but whenever I go for SnY I always end up skipping the Yasha and just making Halbred. Manta feels so...useless on Razor...it just doesn't compliment his skills that well compared to other DPS/Tanky items.
^
imo Razor is one of those heroes where you're not really sure what to buy - Phase + Hood/Pipe + Vit Booster as core, yeah, but what's next?
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On April 13 2012 18:48 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 18:17 gosuMalicE wrote:On April 13 2012 17:21 Dommk wrote:On April 13 2012 14:34 Validity wrote:On April 13 2012 14:03 Dommk wrote:On April 13 2012 13:20 Validity wrote:
Make mekanism on viper. Treads mek ring of aquila wand, building towards agh scepter makes viper ridiculously tanky mid game.
Hood is pretty bad because of diminishing return on magic resistance and mek is just mathematically superior to vanguard. And viper actually really needs the ~8 armour mek provides midgame. You almost always want to be going Pipe, if not that Hood money could be better spent else where (maybe just a vit Booster). Nonetheless, even with diminishing returns Hood is a great Viper item as he is one of the few heroes that benefit a lot from regen and having the ability to last through fights, kinda the reason why you don't see many BkB's on Viper as he doesn't do a whole lot very quickly for it to be crucial. Viper usually doesn't have the mana to support a mek around the time he can finish, Mek is quite in-expensive for a carry/semi-carry. Also you take away getting a Mek on one of your support/semi-support heroes, which is a big loss for them as there aren't many items in the game that they can feasibly get in a reasonable time that provide as much utility as a Mek. Hence why you see Vipers pick up Pipes, etc, as it is quite expensive but unlike supports he gets the time to farm it. Very few people finish Vanguard on ranged heroes these days, it is usually always end up going Vit Booster -> RoH-> Pipe or just vit booster left by itself. The extra effect on Vanguard is nice but after the Vit booster you get to the stage of the game where you need to start making some decent items, spending an extra 1k to finish off the Vanguard these days isn't very ideal Mek gives viper way more survivability than a pipe does. Pipe gives viper an additional ~16% magic resistance and a 400 barrier that does not interact with viper's already increased magic resistance. Viper is usually played as a 1 or 2. The 5 role isn't going to farm a mek in time for it to be team fight changing like a sub 15 minute mekanism on viper. The 4 role usually needs other items like blink (and also can farm a pipe). The 3 role is actually able to farm a pipe most of the time and is usually a hero that will benefit from the full magic resistance of pipe. Viper has plenty of mana for mek between tread swapping, wand, and ring of aquila. I'm not going to tell you to just blindly trust me and go mekanism on viper, but I'd like for you to at least try it/work out the math behind it before dismissing the build. I know I've already done that, and mek looks really good to me on viper. Plus I've beaten some of the best teams in the world off a mek viper carry to give the build some anecdotal evidence. A Mek may mathematically provide better protection for a Viper than a Hood or Vanguard but the majority of the Mek's protective benefits comes from it's active ability, which you can benefit from just as much if it were on another hero. You can argue the same about pipe but the cost of pipe kinda makes it harder to justify. That is why I argue Mek may not be the best choice, but ultimately it will come down to your team composition. I'm not doubting it is a good item, but I'm just saying if there is another hero that is also capable of going a Mek--by which I mean, non-ward bitches i.e Wind Runner. SD, Enchantress, Secondary support, etc then it is probably better to just let them get the Mek whilst you build towards something more meaningful i.e Pipe, etc. But I don't disagree with what you said, I would get Mek over a Vanguard or Hood (no pipe), mostly because I feel those items are a waste of money on ranged heroes lately. EDIT: Thinking more about it, just going off the same justification you used for Viper and V.gaurd/Hood, you could also extend the same logic to a hero like Razor who also tends to build a bit like Viper does with his first few items? Seems pretty interesting...I play a lot of Razor but I've always disliked spending so much money on a V.guard but it always seems that you need that Vit booster one way or another, a Mek might not be a bad substitute Hmm razer, that is the other hero i got for the SnY split into halberd/manta on, try getting sanje instead of vanguard as it gives about the same protection, and the maim chance is really helpful on him. That is what I've been doing lately, but whenever I go for SnY I always end up skipping the Yasha and just making Halbred. Manta feels so...useless on Razor...it just doesn't compliment his skills that well compared to other DPS/Tanky items.
How is manta useless on razor?
Boosts your dps by a ton, gives amazing surviveability + good movespeed + let's you disjoint stuff.
It is an amazing item on him. o_o
If you're allowed to just attack manta boosts your dps by like 50% and if they kill your clones well congratulations, they just used time on the illusions, if not, free damage for you.
My build on razor is usually drums, vit booster, treads obviously into a manta into a heart and then depending on how well the team is doing i'll get a pipe before the heart if needed or i'll go for something like satanic if it's viable in said game, my build on razor changes a lot depending on allies and enemies, but manta is my most beloved item on him.
Also an aghanim razor with a push strat is insane.
Note: I don't personally like phase on razor because in a fight he'll be casting plasma field, link, ult and dispel his phase in many situations + he already has insane movespeed from his third ability and a yasha/manta ontop of it let's him outspeed most people.
There is never a set list of items to buy on a hero, it depends on the picks in the game even if some items are 'core'
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On April 13 2012 18:48 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 18:17 gosuMalicE wrote:On April 13 2012 17:21 Dommk wrote:On April 13 2012 14:34 Validity wrote:On April 13 2012 14:03 Dommk wrote:On April 13 2012 13:20 Validity wrote:
Make mekanism on viper. Treads mek ring of aquila wand, building towards agh scepter makes viper ridiculously tanky mid game.
Hood is pretty bad because of diminishing return on magic resistance and mek is just mathematically superior to vanguard. And viper actually really needs the ~8 armour mek provides midgame. You almost always want to be going Pipe, if not that Hood money could be better spent else where (maybe just a vit Booster). Nonetheless, even with diminishing returns Hood is a great Viper item as he is one of the few heroes that benefit a lot from regen and having the ability to last through fights, kinda the reason why you don't see many BkB's on Viper as he doesn't do a whole lot very quickly for it to be crucial. Viper usually doesn't have the mana to support a mek around the time he can finish, Mek is quite in-expensive for a carry/semi-carry. Also you take away getting a Mek on one of your support/semi-support heroes, which is a big loss for them as there aren't many items in the game that they can feasibly get in a reasonable time that provide as much utility as a Mek. Hence why you see Vipers pick up Pipes, etc, as it is quite expensive but unlike supports he gets the time to farm it. Very few people finish Vanguard on ranged heroes these days, it is usually always end up going Vit Booster -> RoH-> Pipe or just vit booster left by itself. The extra effect on Vanguard is nice but after the Vit booster you get to the stage of the game where you need to start making some decent items, spending an extra 1k to finish off the Vanguard these days isn't very ideal Mek gives viper way more survivability than a pipe does. Pipe gives viper an additional ~16% magic resistance and a 400 barrier that does not interact with viper's already increased magic resistance. Viper is usually played as a 1 or 2. The 5 role isn't going to farm a mek in time for it to be team fight changing like a sub 15 minute mekanism on viper. The 4 role usually needs other items like blink (and also can farm a pipe). The 3 role is actually able to farm a pipe most of the time and is usually a hero that will benefit from the full magic resistance of pipe. Viper has plenty of mana for mek between tread swapping, wand, and ring of aquila. I'm not going to tell you to just blindly trust me and go mekanism on viper, but I'd like for you to at least try it/work out the math behind it before dismissing the build. I know I've already done that, and mek looks really good to me on viper. Plus I've beaten some of the best teams in the world off a mek viper carry to give the build some anecdotal evidence. A Mek may mathematically provide better protection for a Viper than a Hood or Vanguard but the majority of the Mek's protective benefits comes from it's active ability, which you can benefit from just as much if it were on another hero. You can argue the same about pipe but the cost of pipe kinda makes it harder to justify. That is why I argue Mek may not be the best choice, but ultimately it will come down to your team composition. I'm not doubting it is a good item, but I'm just saying if there is another hero that is also capable of going a Mek--by which I mean, non-ward bitches i.e Wind Runner. SD, Enchantress, Secondary support, etc then it is probably better to just let them get the Mek whilst you build towards something more meaningful i.e Pipe, etc. But I don't disagree with what you said, I would get Mek over a Vanguard or Hood (no pipe), mostly because I feel those items are a waste of money on ranged heroes lately. EDIT: Thinking more about it, just going off the same justification you used for Viper and V.gaurd/Hood, you could also extend the same logic to a hero like Razor who also tends to build a bit like Viper does with his first few items? Seems pretty interesting...I play a lot of Razor but I've always disliked spending so much money on a V.guard but it always seems that you need that Vit booster one way or another, a Mek might not be a bad substitute Hmm razer, that is the other hero i got for the SnY split into halberd/manta on, try getting sanje instead of vanguard as it gives about the same protection, and the maim chance is really helpful on him. That is what I've been doing lately, but whenever I go for SnY I always end up skipping the Yasha and just making Halbred. Manta feels so...useless on Razor...it just doesn't compliment his skills that well compared to other DPS/Tanky items.
Well I like yasha on razor because that +10% movespeed (or +12% with SnY) along with his passive make him incredibly fast which is nice for both positioning for his ult and zoning people properly for his plasma field. Plus the as, ad and armor from the agi don't exactly hurt him. And manta give you extra pushing and team fight power as well as the ability to dodge certain spells, so why not?
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manta + passive lets him outspeed some people, phase lets him outspeed most people, I dont know why you would build threads on him since you build other hp items anyway and he isnt a dps lategame carry that the atackspeed would be as usefull as being able to maintain the static link for the full duration and chasing heros
Well I like yasha on razor because that +15% movespeed (or +18% with SnY) along with his passive make him incredibly fast which is nice for both positioning for his ult and zoning people properly for his plasma field. Plus the as, ad and armor from the agi don't exactly hurt him.
Yasha is 10% ms, or you mean along with drums ?
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you should never expect your ulti to to maximum dmg in teamfight if you are playing against good people. Razor ulti is only useful in 1v1 situation outside of lane without creep interfere. Yasha on razor to me personally is a waste simply bc SnY sucks and manta doesnt help razor (BKB would be much better for dispell effect).
Phase on razor is for chasing people after you already got your link on them, not to chase people to get link on them. razor is already passively fast so you should not over do on MS items, 1 or 2 are often more than enough.
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On April 13 2012 20:30 cilinder007 wrote:
manta + passive lets him outspeed some people, phase lets him outspeed most people, I dont know why you would build threads on him since you build other hp items anyway and he isnt a dps lategame carry that the atackspeed would be as usefull as being able to maintain the static link for the full duration and chasing heros
Eh, you have 450 constant movespeed with treads yasha/manta + drums.
Who's going to outrun you?
Phase would be good if you didn't have a lot of spells to cast, casting something dispels your phase..
Activating items also dispels it :/
This is not counting actually activating the drums.
Also, BKB on razor is an odd item because whilst it adds surviveability it removes the possibility of your third ability fucking up enemies, everytime i play razor against a brood they ult and then spiderling charge me and woops, they just lost their ultimate.
While if i had BKB activated she wouldn't be able to even spiderling charge me and thus she would not lose her ultimate. Ontop of that, it just overall adds a lot of problems for people with single target spells.
All items are situational.
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On April 13 2012 20:30 cilinder007 wrote:manta + passive lets him outspeed some people, phase lets him outspeed most people, I dont know why you would build threads on him since you build other hp items anyway and he isnt a dps lategame carry that the atackspeed would be as usefull as being able to maintain the static link for the full duration and chasing heros Show nested quote +
Well I like yasha on razor because that +15% movespeed (or +18% with SnY) along with his passive make him incredibly fast which is nice for both positioning for his ult and zoning people properly for his plasma field. Plus the as, ad and armor from the agi don't exactly hurt him.
Yasha is 10% ms, or you mean along with drums ?
Ugh, yes sorry lack of sleep catching up with me for some reason i added like 5% to both in my head while i was typing.
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what is wrong with that map?
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On April 13 2012 20:21 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 18:48 Dommk wrote:On April 13 2012 18:17 gosuMalicE wrote:On April 13 2012 17:21 Dommk wrote:On April 13 2012 14:34 Validity wrote:On April 13 2012 14:03 Dommk wrote:On April 13 2012 13:20 Validity wrote:
Make mekanism on viper. Treads mek ring of aquila wand, building towards agh scepter makes viper ridiculously tanky mid game.
Hood is pretty bad because of diminishing return on magic resistance and mek is just mathematically superior to vanguard. And viper actually really needs the ~8 armour mek provides midgame. You almost always want to be going Pipe, if not that Hood money could be better spent else where (maybe just a vit Booster). Nonetheless, even with diminishing returns Hood is a great Viper item as he is one of the few heroes that benefit a lot from regen and having the ability to last through fights, kinda the reason why you don't see many BkB's on Viper as he doesn't do a whole lot very quickly for it to be crucial. Viper usually doesn't have the mana to support a mek around the time he can finish, Mek is quite in-expensive for a carry/semi-carry. Also you take away getting a Mek on one of your support/semi-support heroes, which is a big loss for them as there aren't many items in the game that they can feasibly get in a reasonable time that provide as much utility as a Mek. Hence why you see Vipers pick up Pipes, etc, as it is quite expensive but unlike supports he gets the time to farm it. Very few people finish Vanguard on ranged heroes these days, it is usually always end up going Vit Booster -> RoH-> Pipe or just vit booster left by itself. The extra effect on Vanguard is nice but after the Vit booster you get to the stage of the game where you need to start making some decent items, spending an extra 1k to finish off the Vanguard these days isn't very ideal Mek gives viper way more survivability than a pipe does. Pipe gives viper an additional ~16% magic resistance and a 400 barrier that does not interact with viper's already increased magic resistance. Viper is usually played as a 1 or 2. The 5 role isn't going to farm a mek in time for it to be team fight changing like a sub 15 minute mekanism on viper. The 4 role usually needs other items like blink (and also can farm a pipe). The 3 role is actually able to farm a pipe most of the time and is usually a hero that will benefit from the full magic resistance of pipe. Viper has plenty of mana for mek between tread swapping, wand, and ring of aquila. I'm not going to tell you to just blindly trust me and go mekanism on viper, but I'd like for you to at least try it/work out the math behind it before dismissing the build. I know I've already done that, and mek looks really good to me on viper. Plus I've beaten some of the best teams in the world off a mek viper carry to give the build some anecdotal evidence. A Mek may mathematically provide better protection for a Viper than a Hood or Vanguard but the majority of the Mek's protective benefits comes from it's active ability, which you can benefit from just as much if it were on another hero. You can argue the same about pipe but the cost of pipe kinda makes it harder to justify. That is why I argue Mek may not be the best choice, but ultimately it will come down to your team composition. I'm not doubting it is a good item, but I'm just saying if there is another hero that is also capable of going a Mek--by which I mean, non-ward bitches i.e Wind Runner. SD, Enchantress, Secondary support, etc then it is probably better to just let them get the Mek whilst you build towards something more meaningful i.e Pipe, etc. But I don't disagree with what you said, I would get Mek over a Vanguard or Hood (no pipe), mostly because I feel those items are a waste of money on ranged heroes lately. EDIT: Thinking more about it, just going off the same justification you used for Viper and V.gaurd/Hood, you could also extend the same logic to a hero like Razor who also tends to build a bit like Viper does with his first few items? Seems pretty interesting...I play a lot of Razor but I've always disliked spending so much money on a V.guard but it always seems that you need that Vit booster one way or another, a Mek might not be a bad substitute Hmm razer, that is the other hero i got for the SnY split into halberd/manta on, try getting sanje instead of vanguard as it gives about the same protection, and the maim chance is really helpful on him. That is what I've been doing lately, but whenever I go for SnY I always end up skipping the Yasha and just making Halbred. Manta feels so...useless on Razor...it just doesn't compliment his skills that well compared to other DPS/Tanky items. How is manta useless on razor? Boosts your dps by a ton, gives amazing surviveability + good movespeed + let's you disjoint stuff. It is an amazing item on him. o_o If you're allowed to just attack manta boosts your dps by like 50% and if they kill your clones well congratulations, they just used time on the illusions, if not, free damage for you. My build on razor is usually drums, vit booster, treads obviously into a manta into a heart and then depending on how well the team is doing i'll get a pipe before the heart if needed or i'll go for something like satanic if it's viable in said game, my build on razor changes a lot depending on allies and enemies, but manta is my most beloved item on him. Also an aghanim razor with a push strat is insane. Note: I don't personally like phase on razor because in a fight he'll be casting plasma field, link, ult and dispel his phase in many situations + he already has insane movespeed from his third ability and a yasha/manta ontop of it let's him outspeed most people. There is never a set list of items to buy on a hero, it depends on the picks in the game even if some items are 'core'
It certainly does not boost your DPS by 50%, the item doesn't give amazing DPS in fact. It is great if you can get it early but if you are getting Drums, Vit Booster and Treads then by the time you get it the images become irrelevant.
Razor doesn't have good offensive stat growth and all the items you bought previous to the Manta give absolutely nothing to the images. To put it in perspective, a Drow without a single point in his ultimate still has more damage and agility at lvl25 than Razor does.
Manta is a great item if you can get it fairly quickly, but if you delay it by going Drums/Vit Booster then you just lose steam. Not to mention that the images don't have great uptime due to your range and don't get any stronger unless you buy some more relevant items...
After 49 games of Razor I just find the item completely lack luster and borderline worthless if you build Semi tanky early on (i.e Drums/Vit booster).
And have you used Scepter on Razor? It is probably the most garbage Scepter upgrade in the game lol, I've used it about 3 times and it has sucked horribly...
At lvl11 (reasonable for a push strat), your ultimate with Scepter does roughly 83.33DPS....a T2 tower has approx 18 armor (52~% damage reduction), meaning your Scepter upgrade is giving you a lousy 40~ DPS to towers, which is really not that good considering it has a 100second CD and lasts 25seconds. lvl2 Ulti on a T3 tower does 33.33DPS....
The ability is just completely impractical for pushing, you have to hug the darn tower to damage to it, the armor reduction doesn't work on buildings and you can never stand there for the full duration. In a real scenario you are always bobbing and weaving in and out, it is difficult to stay that close to that tower, it also has a very long cooldown, if you use it in a team fight then it won't be up for a counter push if you happen to win the fight.
After trying it out a few times, I can guarantee you that although the potential for the damage is high, other regular abilities like Liquid Fire and lvl1/2 Dragonform will end up doing more effective damage to a tower than your ultimate will. It is one of those things that looks decent on paper but just sucks when you try it out :/
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On April 13 2012 21:06 dragonborn wrote:what is wrong with that map?
it's an edited map. terrain swap
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On April 13 2012 21:13 rabidch wrote:it's an edited map. terrain swap
interesting :O
seems like dragon knight is such a common pick in chinese dota.
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On April 13 2012 21:17 dragonborn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 21:13 rabidch wrote:On April 13 2012 21:06 dragonborn wrote:what is wrong with that map? it's an edited map. terrain swap interesting :O seems like dragon knight is such a common pick in chinese dota.
he's first pick. es is first pick, aa is top pick. they also use rhasta differently, more as a support than semi carry. next game is DK vs tyloo in about an hour (30 past this hour).
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I find it hard to farm early game as Mirana. Usually I go solo shitty lane because of her survival, but I find myself lacking in farm most of the time. Her damage range is utterly atrocious (not to mention I usually have to buy my own wards to block so food/GG branches is my luxury) and the arrow attack speed feels slow. I find myself rushing to Aquilia or Phase to even stand a chance at last hitting or denying. But that takes some time.
How do I improve this? 1:1 is ok, but usually it'll be a carry/support vs me, and Mirana's nukes are not as spammable as Powershot. I find every other crappy lane solo'er fine except her.
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On April 13 2012 21:13 rabidch wrote:it's an edited map. terrain swap
its more accurate to say its an edited wc3 with a different terrain set, the dota map itself is the same
also lol at legend bro, picking him against dk is about the same as just giving up the game
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United States47024 Posts
On April 13 2012 20:20 cilinder007 wrote:
manta, butterfly, heart
Also, Assault Cuirass.
Really shouldn't forget about Cuirass on Razor. All the stats willl be good at that point given
- Static Link gives you damage, and Cuirass gives you attack speed to complement that
- The -armor aura stacks up well with your ult's -armor
- You'll have a bunch of HP, and want more armor
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WTF??? the performance tab no longer show you w/l of each heroes? THIS IS BULLSHIT!
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United States47024 Posts
On April 13 2012 19:34 Validity wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 13 2012 17:21 Dommk wrote:
A Mek may mathematically provide better protection for a Viper than a Hood or Vanguard but the majority of the Mek's protective benefits comes from it's active ability, which you can benefit from just as much if it were on another hero. You can argue the same about pipe but the cost of pipe kinda makes it harder to justify.
That is why I argue Mek may not be the best choice, but ultimately it will come down to your team composition. I'm not doubting it is a good item, but I'm just saying if there is another hero that is also capable of going a Mek--by which I mean, non-ward bitches i.e Wind Runner. SD, Enchantress, Secondary support, etc then it is probably better to just let them get the Mek whilst you build towards something more meaningful i.e Pipe, etc.
But I don't disagree with what you said, I would get Mek over a Vanguard or Hood (no pipe), mostly because I feel those items are a waste of money on ranged heroes lately.
EDIT:
Thinking more about it, just going off the same justification you used for Viper and V.gaurd/Hood, you could also extend the same logic to a hero like Razor who also tends to build a bit like Viper does with his first few items? Seems pretty interesting...I play a lot of Razor but I've always disliked spending so much money on a V.guard but it always seems that you need that Vit booster one way or another, a Mek might not be a bad substitute It's not like if the secondary support doesn't build a mekanism, then they won't use that 2300 gold. Swapping a hood onto your 3 role and a mekanism onto your 1 makes your team overall more tanky due to viper not interacting as well with hood. And having a support with a force staff instead of having to make a mekanism/an earlier mek can be game changing. There are also a few things that make mekanism on a tanky carry hero really good. 1. A team with a viper will always have the team fight revolving around him. A hero like a WR/SD/chanty may not always catch all of your team's heroes in the 900 aoe active or in doing so they may be putting themselves out of position. 2. The stats other than the active for mekanism are actually very nice on a hero like viper. Half an ulti orb and +5 armour on a hero that desperately needs the armour. Compare this to pipe where in a fight, both the regeneration and the magic resistance are relatively negligible--not to mention going pipe delays viper's damage items (aghs/manta/etc) a significant amount more than mek as you really also have to couple a pipe with an hp item (vit booster/jango) on a hero like viper. Looking purely at what mekanism gives to an individual hero makes it seem imba before you even think about the aoe heal/armour buff: 345 hp 5 dmg 5 ias 65 mana (-150 mana) almost 8 armour +4 hp regen (+a relatively negligible hp/mana regen from stats), not to mention the fact that being able to get headdress/ring of regen to stay in lane is great. 3. The mekanism comes really fast and often before the other team's. As in + 25% to your team's survivability fast, compared to the +15% if a support were to get it 10-15 minutes later. This means that your team effectively has 1250 extra hp early compared to your opponents, which is pretty amazing when you want to limit the other team's map control by destroying their t1 and t2 towers asap. And yes, I build mekanism on razor too (I like treads wand mek aquila manta skadi with a situational planeswalker). I do however think that pipe is better on razor than on viper as he better benefits from the magic resistance, but in general I dislike pipe on any carries, as it is pretty expensive for what it gives to the individual hero (in a vacuum scenario, you would never build pipe on a carry if it didn't affect allies at all, whereas mek is still the best mathematical option even disregarding the active affecting allies), and carries should have priority in being the principle beneficiary of items.
There is one issue that you're ignoring about getting Mek on a tanky carry--which is that getting to USE it can be awkward in some situations. You want to be the one that people are throwing spells, and especially disables at. This means that you don't get to use Mek perfectly when you want--only in a window of time where you're not disabled, meaning that it may not be the most effective timing or placement of Mek on your team if you're only using it to survive. It also means that you're expecting to not die within the first round of disables--since all of those initial stuns need to come off before you get a chance to Mek. In games where you may not necessarily be winning, and the other team has long stuns, that assumption isn't always going to be true. Mek is a cost-efficient survivability item if you actually manage to get it off-but in terms of surviving a round of initial stuns, plain HP/magic resistance are better.
This is why it's often better to get Mek on a caster semicarry--if they're not taking the brunt of the damage or the disables, they can maximize Mek's effectiveness, because they don't need to worry about having to pop it at an inopportune time just to survive, and they don't have to worry about getting chain-stunned to death before using it unless they make a positioning error.
I do agree with the practice of pretty much always having Mek by 15 minutes which is seen in Chinese play--but that's doable by getting Mek on 3rd, or even 4th position if you allow them the farm.
And again, magic resistance stacking multiplicatively is not "diminishing returns". Stacking additively would just be nonsensical. In fact, stacking multiplicatively means that unlike armor, additional magic resistance multiplies your EHP MORE. Each point of armor is only a fixed 6% of your HP in additional EHP. Whereas, consider the following scenario: I have 1000 HP, and 50% magic resistance--giving me 2000 EHP vs magic damage. If I have another 50% magic resistance effect, I only got 25% "more" magic resistance (bringing me to 75%), but that magic resistance is actually twice as good as the initial 50%, since my EHP vs magic damage is now 4000. If they stacked additively, I would have infinite EHP vs magic damage--it's not "diminishing returns" for it not to function that way.
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EPT
