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On April 13 2012 23:34 scorch- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 21:07 Dommk wrote:A Drow without a single point in his ultimate still has more damage and agility at lvl25 than Razor does. His ult does 100 dps and reduces armor and he has a spell that steals 28 damage for each second he is in range of a hero. If he had as much damage and agility as a drow without any skills, he would be broken.
Drow gets 1.9 agility per level...
Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that he doesn't have the greatest stats to make Manta worthwhile
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On April 14 2012 01:12 Kupon3ss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 00:29 rabidch wrote:On April 14 2012 00:08 TheYango wrote:Ugh, I didn't catch the bans for either the TongFu or the Tyloo game. It looks like DK is playing around with not banning Batrider though, seeing as they let him through both games. also i caught the drafts for a few games. i didnt get DK vs tongfu because my router exploded Well Bat's still quite strong, and u'll notice that once bat gets blink the effectiveness of furion becomes significantly reduced since bat can just blink over and use the atm~ Its a shame that the Tyloo game went the way it did, Tyloo's draft had Bat DS WR Chen for a retardedly strong 2-5th position setup but went with legend bro... If they grabbed morphling or some other actually useful carry (and was a much better team) I could have seen them taking it over DK
i did not see a a chen in the tyloo games. unless you mean tongfu.
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Haha feels good to 3v5 as AM. Even though I played the game quite badly. Low skill bracket ftw
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Man, being new to Dota 2, and seeing all these small tricks and shit (like pudge + chen combo), or stuff like Kunkka + tele scroll + bottle, makes me appreciate all the cool shit people work out.
Are there any other sick tricks and combos like these?
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The most tricky heroes, like wisp, tuskar, thrall and the new ones aren't in the game yet 
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On April 13 2012 22:22 TheYango wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 13 2012 19:34 Validity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 17:21 Dommk wrote:
A Mek may mathematically provide better protection for a Viper than a Hood or Vanguard but the majority of the Mek's protective benefits comes from it's active ability, which you can benefit from just as much if it were on another hero. You can argue the same about pipe but the cost of pipe kinda makes it harder to justify.
That is why I argue Mek may not be the best choice, but ultimately it will come down to your team composition. I'm not doubting it is a good item, but I'm just saying if there is another hero that is also capable of going a Mek--by which I mean, non-ward bitches i.e Wind Runner. SD, Enchantress, Secondary support, etc then it is probably better to just let them get the Mek whilst you build towards something more meaningful i.e Pipe, etc.
But I don't disagree with what you said, I would get Mek over a Vanguard or Hood (no pipe), mostly because I feel those items are a waste of money on ranged heroes lately.
EDIT:
Thinking more about it, just going off the same justification you used for Viper and V.gaurd/Hood, you could also extend the same logic to a hero like Razor who also tends to build a bit like Viper does with his first few items? Seems pretty interesting...I play a lot of Razor but I've always disliked spending so much money on a V.guard but it always seems that you need that Vit booster one way or another, a Mek might not be a bad substitute It's not like if the secondary support doesn't build a mekanism, then they won't use that 2300 gold. Swapping a hood onto your 3 role and a mekanism onto your 1 makes your team overall more tanky due to viper not interacting as well with hood. And having a support with a force staff instead of having to make a mekanism/an earlier mek can be game changing. There are also a few things that make mekanism on a tanky carry hero really good. 1. A team with a viper will always have the team fight revolving around him. A hero like a WR/SD/chanty may not always catch all of your team's heroes in the 900 aoe active or in doing so they may be putting themselves out of position. 2. The stats other than the active for mekanism are actually very nice on a hero like viper. Half an ulti orb and +5 armour on a hero that desperately needs the armour. Compare this to pipe where in a fight, both the regeneration and the magic resistance are relatively negligible--not to mention going pipe delays viper's damage items (aghs/manta/etc) a significant amount more than mek as you really also have to couple a pipe with an hp item (vit booster/jango) on a hero like viper. Looking purely at what mekanism gives to an individual hero makes it seem imba before you even think about the aoe heal/armour buff: 345 hp 5 dmg 5 ias 65 mana (-150 mana) almost 8 armour +4 hp regen (+a relatively negligible hp/mana regen from stats), not to mention the fact that being able to get headdress/ring of regen to stay in lane is great. 3. The mekanism comes really fast and often before the other team's. As in + 25% to your team's survivability fast, compared to the +15% if a support were to get it 10-15 minutes later. This means that your team effectively has 1250 extra hp early compared to your opponents, which is pretty amazing when you want to limit the other team's map control by destroying their t1 and t2 towers asap. And yes, I build mekanism on razor too (I like treads wand mek aquila manta skadi with a situational planeswalker). I do however think that pipe is better on razor than on viper as he better benefits from the magic resistance, but in general I dislike pipe on any carries, as it is pretty expensive for what it gives to the individual hero (in a vacuum scenario, you would never build pipe on a carry if it didn't affect allies at all, whereas mek is still the best mathematical option even disregarding the active affecting allies), and carries should have priority in being the principle beneficiary of items. There is one issue that you're ignoring about getting Mek on a tanky carry--which is that getting to USE it can be awkward in some situations. You want to be the one that people are throwing spells, and especially disables at. This means that you don't get to use Mek perfectly when you want--only in a window of time where you're not disabled, meaning that it may not be the most effective timing or placement of Mek on your team if you're only using it to survive. It also means that you're expecting to not die within the first round of disables--since all of those initial stuns need to come off before you get a chance to Mek. In games where you may not necessarily be winning, and the other team has long stuns, that assumption isn't always going to be true. Mek is a cost-efficient survivability item if you actually manage to get it off-but in terms of surviving a round of initial stuns, plain HP/magic resistance are better. This is why it's often better to get Mek on a caster semicarry--if they're not taking the brunt of the damage or the disables, they can maximize Mek's effectiveness, because they don't need to worry about having to pop it at an inopportune time just to survive, and they don't have to worry about getting chain-stunned to death before using it unless they make a positioning error. I do agree with the practice of pretty much always having Mek by 15 minutes which is seen in Chinese play--but that's doable by getting Mek on 3rd, or even 4th position if you allow them the farm. And again, magic resistance stacking multiplicatively is not "diminishing returns". Stacking additively would just be nonsensical. In fact, stacking multiplicatively means that unlike armor, additional magic resistance multiplies your EHP MORE. Each point of armor is only a fixed 6% of your HP in additional EHP. Whereas, consider the following scenario: I have 1000 HP, and 50% magic resistance--giving me 2000 EHP vs magic damage. If I have another 50% magic resistance effect, I only got 25% "more" magic resistance (bringing me to 75%), but that magic resistance is actually twice as good as the initial 50%, since my EHP vs magic damage is now 4000. If they stacked additively, I would have infinite EHP vs magic damage--it's not "diminishing returns" for it not to function that way.
If your viper is dying before he can get a 0 cast time item off at 15 minutes in a teamfight with 4 other allied heroes around him, then your team has almost definitely already lost the game. I think you're underestimating how tanky a viper with treads mek aquila point booster is (a pretty cheap set of items). I've played and won against eg/col/na'vi using mek viper and I'm 100% sure there were 0 team fights where I was unable to get mekanism off (i think in my viper game against na'vi they had a burst lineup too). It's actually far more common that a support with mek gets rexxar roared and focused down before mek can go off than a tanky carry gets focused down.
The support getting focused down before getting mekanism off is especially relevant when we consider your example of a support getting mek at 15 minutes. A 3 or 4 role having mek at that time usually means that that hero will have just boots and mek. Maybe a wand and a tp too. That is a lot easier to focus down before mek pops than a 1 role viper who has treads, mek, wand, a point in corrosive, and a higher hero level.
Where did I say that they stacked additively? Stacking additively would imply increasing returns rather than diminishing where 30% resistance after a 50% resistance would effectively prevent 60% of total magic damage taken.
Ok maybe dimishing returns is not the best term to use, but I like its implied meanings of stacking magic resistance not being worth it unless you take a ridiculous amount of magic damage (ie pudge). But you seem to think that stacking magic resistance on a hero is great. Can you explain to me why getting hood on antimage is terrible? Or do you think that is great too because it increases his spell ehp by ~40%? Now take those reasons and they will be the exact same for a hero like viper.
Sure, two instances of 50% magic resistance will make your ehp against magic 4x your hp, but in your 1000 hp scenario, the first instance of 50% saves you 250 damage from a 500 damage nuke, and the next 50% only prevents 125 damage. Yes, it doubles your magic ehp again, but it only reduces an additional quarter of the damage from the original amount taken. So sure, if they only use magic damage on you, then you have double the hp, but the tradeoff of buying so much magic resistance is that your base hp is lower and your resistance to physical attacks is lower than it otherwise would be.
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On April 14 2012 01:04 Hoban wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 00:39 Zlasher wrote:On April 13 2012 23:34 scorch- wrote:On April 13 2012 21:07 Dommk wrote:A Drow without a single point in his ultimate still has more damage and agility at lvl25 than Razor does. His ult does 100 dps and reduces armor and he has a spell that steals 28 damage for each second he is in range of a hero. If he had as much damage and agility as a drow without any skills, he would be broken. Also, Drow has to build damage items, Razor just builds Vanguard Pipe and maybe a heart, which makes him have much more survivability, and he actually has a damaging spell. Actually drow does not have to build damage items. A teamcomp with drow in mind opens up an entire world of possibilities. Vit booster, drums, pipe, helm of the dom with allies such as Vengeful spirit, Chen, Beastmaster, allow Drow to do crazy amounts of damage and benefit your supports by soaking stuns/spells. Her ult guarentees that her midgame damage is strong, allowing you to build tanky, and by the time late game rolls around you will have a manta or other dps item. The alternative is building a BKB on her but I really like using her as a big juicy target in team fights. It allows your supports a little more breathing room knowing the tanky drow will be getting casted on. It is just food for thought though, I don't have any replays of pros playing drow like this because pros dont pick drow. It is a fun way to play her.
Drow definitely needs "dps enhancement", which means that neither vit booster nor pipe are viable on your primary dps. The only way to make drow really work is to protect her fairly well and go for an around lv11 push timing with at least treads helm of the dominator, then generally bkb or manta depending on lineup and farm.
There was a game 2 days ago between 2 good Chinese teams in which something similar to that was done, but drow's overall power drops off quite a bit lategame and if you fail to capitalize on her midgame by allowing her to increase her dps and bringing it to bear she gets outcarried by almost anything
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Hey guys,
Looking for US players wanting to do some TMM with me to have some good games.
I am a pretty good HON player, but I am having trouble getting used to DOTA. Still, I know the basics and therefore usually do well in my games.
If any of you want to play, add me on steam: seth151
Edit: Must be a decent player, basically must be able to have a positive K:D..
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On April 14 2012 06:52 Glacials wrote:
Hey guys,
Looking for US players wanting to do some TMM with me to have some good games.
I am a pretty good HON player, but I am having trouble getting used to DOTA. Still, I know the basics and therefore usually do well in my games.
If any of you want to play, add me on steam: seth151
Edit: Must be a decent player, basically must be able to have a positive K:D..
I'm a high skill player (According to dota 2) and I have more wins than losses. I regularly play in-house scrims with a group.
I also tend to play lion, cm, wd, etc. My KDR is probably <1.
KDR =/= skill, only if you're a ganker.
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On April 14 2012 03:20 wei2coolman wrote:
Man, being new to Dota 2, and seeing all these small tricks and shit (like pudge + chen combo), or stuff like Kunkka + tele scroll + bottle, makes me appreciate all the cool shit people work out.
Are there any other sick tricks and combos like these?
just wait for wisp bro.
you can do some crazy shit with that hero hahaha
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On April 14 2012 06:52 Glacials wrote:
Hey guys,
Looking for US players wanting to do some TMM with me to have some good games.
I am a pretty good HON player, but I am having trouble getting used to DOTA. Still, I know the basics and therefore usually do well in my games.
If any of you want to play, add me on steam: seth151
Edit: Must be a decent player, basically must be able to have a positive K:D..
The bolded part made me laugh, because that says nothing about a players skill, it depends 100% on what they play 
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On April 14 2012 07:13 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 06:52 Glacials wrote:
Hey guys,
Looking for US players wanting to do some TMM with me to have some good games.
I am a pretty good HON player, but I am having trouble getting used to DOTA. Still, I know the basics and therefore usually do well in my games.
If any of you want to play, add me on steam: seth151
Edit: Must be a decent player, basically must be able to have a positive K:D.. The bolded part made me laugh, because that says nothing about a players skill, it depends 100% on what they play
He should write K+A:D and good relative gpm + xpm.
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On April 14 2012 07:11 Shai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 06:52 Glacials wrote:
Hey guys,
Looking for US players wanting to do some TMM with me to have some good games.
I am a pretty good HON player, but I am having trouble getting used to DOTA. Still, I know the basics and therefore usually do well in my games.
If any of you want to play, add me on steam: seth151
Edit: Must be a decent player, basically must be able to have a positive K:D.. I'm a high skill player (According to dota 2) and I have more wins than losses. I regularly play in-house scrims with a group. I also tend to play lion, cm, wd, etc. My KDR is probably <1. KDR =/= skill, only if you're a ganker.
Cool, I'll play with you if you'd like, I don't think I'm a pro or anything, especially at DOTA2, but I think I'm decent enough to win most of my games.
You can add me on Steam: Seth151
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what if u have positive kd no matter what u play
need some extra high skill players yo
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What do you think are some of the pros and cons of the genre, and how would you evaluate its long term potential in the context of e-sports growth?
...With 5 members on a team, it is immensely difficult to evaluate each player’s worth/skill on a team because it’s all about how you play together, not individually. Will a player make sacrifices for the good of the team? Will a player think about how the team can win the game? Too many players focus on irrelevant stats, like gold per minute, k/d ratio, etc. Those stats are useless. All that matters is did the opposing team’s frozen throne or world tree die and how much you contributed to make that happen.
Taken from a recent interview with Merlini, yes the old Dota 1 pro famous for his zues play etc etc, Ex-MYM.
Source: Merlini Interview
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United States47024 Posts
So I just realized--if Lothar's gets added into crits now...Lothar's Tuskarr is pretty much going to be the funniest thing ever when he gets added into the game.
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On April 14 2012 07:24 Dead9 wrote:
what if u have positive kd no matter what u play
need some extra high skill players yo
I know right? Can't play a support CM without atleast 2:1 K:D
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On April 14 2012 07:38 Crissaegrim wrote:Show nested quote +What do you think are some of the pros and cons of the genre, and how would you evaluate its long term potential in the context of e-sports growth?
...With 5 members on a team, it is immensely difficult to evaluate each player’s worth/skill on a team because it’s all about how you play together, not individually. Will a player make sacrifices for the good of the team? Will a player think about how the team can win the game? Too many players focus on irrelevant stats, like gold per minute, k/d ratio, etc. Those stats are useless. All that matters is did the opposing team’s frozen throne or world tree die and how much you contributed to make that happen. Taken from a recent interview with Merlini, yes the old Dota 1 pro famous for his zues play etc etc, Ex-MYM. Source: Merlini Interview
Doesn't impress me much, especially since I've formed a team in DOTA with him before he was well known. You guys missed the point of why I included that part. Look at any player, and his overall KD ratio will be positive.
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On April 14 2012 07:47 Glacials wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 07:38 Crissaegrim wrote:What do you think are some of the pros and cons of the genre, and how would you evaluate its long term potential in the context of e-sports growth?
...With 5 members on a team, it is immensely difficult to evaluate each player’s worth/skill on a team because it’s all about how you play together, not individually. Will a player make sacrifices for the good of the team? Will a player think about how the team can win the game? Too many players focus on irrelevant stats, like gold per minute, k/d ratio, etc. Those stats are useless. All that matters is did the opposing team’s frozen throne or world tree die and how much you contributed to make that happen. Taken from a recent interview with Merlini, yes the old Dota 1 pro famous for his zues play etc etc, Ex-MYM. Source: Merlini Interview Doesn't impress me much, especially since I've formed a team in DOTA with him before he was well known. You guys missed the point of why I included that part. Look at any player, and his overall KD ratio will be positive.
You mean win/loss I guess ?
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On April 14 2012 07:47 Glacials wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 07:38 Crissaegrim wrote:What do you think are some of the pros and cons of the genre, and how would you evaluate its long term potential in the context of e-sports growth?
...With 5 members on a team, it is immensely difficult to evaluate each player’s worth/skill on a team because it’s all about how you play together, not individually. Will a player make sacrifices for the good of the team? Will a player think about how the team can win the game? Too many players focus on irrelevant stats, like gold per minute, k/d ratio, etc. Those stats are useless. All that matters is did the opposing team’s frozen throne or world tree die and how much you contributed to make that happen. Taken from a recent interview with Merlini, yes the old Dota 1 pro famous for his zues play etc etc, Ex-MYM. Source: Merlini Interview Doesn't impress me much, especially since I've formed a team in DOTA with him before he was well known. You guys missed the point of why I included that part. Look at any player, and his overall KD ratio will be positive.
Yes... Maelk's venomancer agrees.
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EPT
