On April 12 2012 10:13 Itsmedudeman wrote: How come people don't abuse dire creep pulls as much as they should? You can pull the weak camp and then the one next to it to deny the entire wave without them being able to do anything (except spend another 100g to deny a weak camp).
It's also possible to pull the radiant hard camp to midlane. Don't know the time though.
a lot of the more ridiculous pulls are essentially "mannerbanned" in that people know about them and how they're completely gamebreaking but don't do them in competitive play. The only time i've seen it abused in a game that "mattered" was in some HON game where they repeatedly just pulled the scourge/hellborne/dire bot lane into ancients, which, iirc led to kind of a shitstorm and a quick map rework
On April 12 2012 11:37 Kupon3ss wrote: a lot of the more ridiculous pulls are essentially "mannerbanned" in that people know about them and how they're completely gamebreaking but don't do them in competitive play. The only time i've seen it abused in a game that "mattered" was in some HON game where they repeatedly just pulled the scourge/hellborne/dire bot lane into ancients, which, iirc led to kind of a shitstorm and a quick map rework
I've definitely seen WE use the midlane hard pull when they dual lane with lich mid. I think it was in TPL? I think I've seen dire small camp pulled before once or twice. Not in any major tournament that I can recall though. (IE it was in group stages or some small one day tourny)
The hon map was reworked for the top small neutrals (their leash time was changed so they have to be pulled after :55 to prevent pulling to the lane for a stack to occur).
And well, hon players aren't exactly going to not do something because it's not manner
A pretty normal build which will work in pubs for brood is Soul Ring-Treads (Phase if you're bad at micro and block yourself with your spiders every few seconds)-BKB-Butterfly. SR and Boots are standard, BKB first item as Brood has low HP and in teamfights you're likely to just get instagibbed by burst before you can do anything due to lack of solid initiation. Butterfly is just luxury, more damage with a small amount of survivability.
You can try mix it up and go like Orchid as your first big item if the other team doesn't have many disables or you have a friend who can initiate fights like Tide. Vlads simply doesn't do a whole lot, you already have lifesteal and the spiders tend to die in an all or nothing approach so the lifesteal on them isn't that great. It just delays more useful items. It's not bad for pushing if a more support orientated player picks it up though. Vanguard is not a bad pickup as well but I'm not sure what situations you'd pick it up instead of just going straight for BKB? Going Vanguard-BKB will make for a really tanky broodmother who won't die early in fights but will barely do any damage either.
On April 12 2012 11:37 Kupon3ss wrote: a lot of the more ridiculous pulls are essentially "mannerbanned" in that people know about them and how they're completely gamebreaking but don't do them in competitive play. The only time i've seen it abused in a game that "mattered" was in some HON game where they repeatedly just pulled the scourge/hellborne/dire bot lane into ancients, which, iirc led to kind of a shitstorm and a quick map rework
I've definitely seen WE use the midlane hard pull when they dual lane with lich mid. I think it was in TPL? I think I've seen dire small camp pulled before once or twice. Not in any major tournament that I can recall though. (IE it was in group stages or some small one day tourny)
The hon map was reworked for the top small neutrals (their leash time was changed so they have to be pulled after :55 to prevent pulling to the lane for a stack to occur).
And well, hon players aren't exactly going to not do something because it's not manner
If the game design is retarded/abusable, it shouldn't be up to the players not to use it out of manner. It's not exactly a glitch, so if it really is unfair then it should be fixed as it was in HoN.
the problem with pulling is that you are either using tower HP or your lane partner HP to tank up the enemy creep wave. Even though denying the enemy exp is much more beneficial, risking a tower/hero life isnt worth it. More over in comp game team draft a suicide laner for long lane anyway and those heroes are mostly not lv dependent. We often see beastmaster just sit near accient and stack/farm with his axe, a brood who can jungle with her own broodlings, a windrunner or clock who could farm from really far away...
On April 12 2012 13:13 NB wrote: the problem with pulling is that you are either using tower HP or your lane partner HP to tank up the enemy creep wave. Even though denying the enemy exp is much more beneficial, risking a tower/hero life isnt worth it. More over in comp game team draft a suicide laner for long lane anyway and those heroes are mostly not lv dependent. We often see beastmaster just sit near accient and stack/farm with his axe, a brood who can jungle with her own broodlings, a windrunner or clock who could farm from really far away...
Wut? 2>1 but you should use 1 'cause it isn't worth going 2?
On April 12 2012 13:13 NB wrote: the problem with pulling is that you are either using tower HP or your lane partner HP to tank up the enemy creep wave. Even though denying the enemy exp is much more beneficial, risking a tower/hero life isnt worth it. More over in comp game team draft a suicide laner for long lane anyway and those heroes are mostly not lv dependent. We often see beastmaster just sit near accient and stack/farm with his axe, a brood who can jungle with her own broodlings, a windrunner or clock who could farm from really far away...
Isn't it kind of rare to see clock or bm solo long lane anymore? And trilanes in general are less favored.
Pulling is a risk in a 2v2 (some lanes can handle it way better than others though) but it's pretty much impossible to fail to pull 3v1 (like if the pull isn't blocked). In 3v3 it's a greater risk/reward factor but trilane vs trilane always seems fairly rare and then the position decides who has the pulling advantage (if it's radiant bottom dire obviously isn't going to be doing any pulling short of ES fissure shenanigans/pulling to the ancients). Those two are explicity banned by most tournies, correct? Fissure block/ancient pulls.
pretty sure the current common trend is 1-2-2 with a carry going mid with a support baby sit (could be a jungler or just CM VS roam)
The thing about pulling is that most team(enemy) already anticipated the damage caused by you pulling so pulling majority of the time in comp just gona hurt your lane partner more. As the meta game currently is head toward push oriented strats, tower HP is a good resource to keep but to spent. Lastly pulling often reveal the position of the lane support which also eliminate the thread of missing/smoke gank the enemy team need to care about.
In some cases pulling is a good way to start a 3 men push as you get 3 stacks of creeps once you reach the enemy tower (pulling without stacked neutral) and its a great way for pusher like chen or enchan to take a very early tower. Otherwise a support should harass enemy heroes and let your lane partner static farm would be the ideal choice
Conclusion: unlike pub game, in comp games pulling isnt as much effective and should be replaced by alternative course of actions (harass, smoke gank, etc...).
On April 12 2012 10:13 Itsmedudeman wrote: How come people don't abuse dire creep pulls as much as they should? You can pull the weak camp and then the one next to it to deny the entire wave without them being able to do anything (except spend another 100g to deny a weak camp).
It's also possible to pull the radiant hard camp to midlane. Don't know the time though.
The timing is easy to mess up (you get the edge of aggro), you usually won't get all the creeps, and the puller is in a horrible position to do anything else useful.
I remember a chinese game where scourge furion tried to pull the top lane far (right) creep camp, by pulling them towards the lane, sprouting them to freeze them, then presumably pull them the rest of the way to the lane. In theory it would be a lot safer, but he failed twice and gave up.
the premier league is taking WAY too long and is so unorganized with its schedule for me to take it seriously at this point. How many group stages are going to pass and yet they'll still constantly replace teams, like at what point are they going to stop. If its top 4 and a team drops out WELL, I GUESS WE'LL GET A REPLACEMENT...
On April 12 2012 20:02 Zlasher wrote: the premier league is taking WAY too long and is so unorganized with its schedule for me to take it seriously at this point. How many group stages are going to pass and yet they'll still constantly replace teams, like at what point are they going to stop. If its top 4 and a team drops out WELL, I GUESS WE'LL GET A REPLACEMENT...
for myself, I understand the desire for replacements for the sake of having matches. But I am sort of getting sick of the sheer number of them. That, and the consistent team disbanding/forming. The DotA 2 scene is still trying to grow and seems to be a very painful process. It is just difficult for myself at least, to truly become attached to the pro-scene when it seems in such disarray.
Granted, I am not the most knowledgeable person out there and probably newer to the pro-scene than most posting here. It just depresses me seeing all of this taking place.
The problem of dota 2 tournaments is the prize pool, it's still super low. A 12 weeks tournament to win 1000$/player isn't enough to support a team. So with so little prize money to fuel the scene, it's up to the teams to provide everything, the game is in beta, a lot of the players are not exactly professional enough to justify having a salary, and it's a vicious circle. At least tournament organizers are making tons of money xD Starladder for instance is a 15k prizepool and broadcast from 4 to 8 hours a day to a 6-20k audience.
btw if the team isn't going for push early on, i felt that balancing out dragon's blood and dragon's breath and skipping the ult was much better in controlling the lane
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ulMiF.jpg)
