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On August 30 2013 07:24 PrinceXizor wrote:
Its interesting that this argument always turns into SST + a couple people who rotate around against the entire long term dota playerbase.
Hi, I just proved that people can be elitist dicks without a ranking system. Did I just destroy every argument you have made? I think i just did!
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On August 30 2013 07:24 PrinceXizor wrote:
Its interesting that this argument always turns into SST + a couple people who rotate around against the entire long term dota playerbase.
It's interesting that you believe you are part of the long term DotA player base when I know for a fact that I've played DotA and all of its silly incarnations longer than you ever have.
So unless you played DotA's first incarnations on RoC roughly a decade ago give or take a few years, I seriously doubt you have me beat.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 30 2013 06:50 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 06:49 Unleashing wrote:On August 30 2013 06:46 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 06:32 TheYango wrote:On August 30 2013 06:09 superstartran wrote:
It would make recruiting new blood way easier. AdmiralBulldog for example would have gotten noticed way sooner.
I question that. Even if there were a ranked ladder, teams aren't going to be combing the top end of the ladder for new players, because most of these teams recognize that once you're roughly at the top, differences in mindset, attitude, etc. are going to outweigh the difference between being #1 and #10. That's a degree of granularity that's simply not useful. You keep bringing up only arguments that support your position, without ever acknowledging the other side. It's quite painfully obvious how bias you are. The exact same thing applies to you. I've acknowledged that there are problems with bringing in a ranking system, and yet no one else from the other side accepts that there are positives to bringing in a ranking system. In fact, TheYango has basically attempted to discredit everything about ranking systems in general, even though I've always acknowledged the fact that there should be a compromise and not some ghetto system like we have right now.And ICCUP sucks, as well as IXDL for various reasons.
I think we've always agreed on that fact.
The only thing we've disagreed on is that you have faith that such a compromise can happen, whereas I don't think any developer to date has shown enough competency in designing these systems for me to have faith in a suitable compromise being realistically feasible--hence I hugely prefer no ranking system to a shitty one.
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On August 30 2013 07:29 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 06:52 BurningSera wrote:On August 30 2013 06:22 Andr3 wrote:On August 30 2013 06:07 r.Evo wrote:
1+1+1+1+1 vs 1+1+1+1+1 != 5vs5 when it comes to Dota.
tmm has a rating. The only form of competetive Dota at the highest level is 5n5, not a couple of random people thrown together. Want to be competetive yourself? Go find like-minded people and start playing tmm. While not really relevant to this discussion, TMM sux. It just averages the individual MMRs of the people in the team. Winning/losing is basically +2, -2, +1, -2 all day. People would play TMM if it actually had a normal system of rating teams. yeah i just found out recently that TMM is directly added up from individual mmr, jesus valve fix please. Sooooo.... let's say I have 1 account and want to know track my improvement ("gain 100 points over 1 month"). I get 4 other accounts. Never play them. Create a team from those 4 accounts and my tryhard account. I see the team MMR is at X? Now I play my normal games and after 1 month I see I my team has a MMR of X+100 and I'm totally happy since I achieved my goal? And - just for fun - I create a 5th account. All those new accounts have the same MMR, so I create a team and now know that the starting MMR is X/5. (Which then allows me to exactly know my tryhard accounts MMR).
Yup, that is entirely doable. Me and my friends have been tracking our progress as a stack that way.
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On August 30 2013 07:33 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 06:50 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 06:49 Unleashing wrote:On August 30 2013 06:46 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 06:32 TheYango wrote:On August 30 2013 06:09 superstartran wrote:
It would make recruiting new blood way easier. AdmiralBulldog for example would have gotten noticed way sooner.
I question that. Even if there were a ranked ladder, teams aren't going to be combing the top end of the ladder for new players, because most of these teams recognize that once you're roughly at the top, differences in mindset, attitude, etc. are going to outweigh the difference between being #1 and #10. That's a degree of granularity that's simply not useful. You keep bringing up only arguments that support your position, without ever acknowledging the other side. It's quite painfully obvious how bias you are. The exact same thing applies to you. I've acknowledged that there are problems with bringing in a ranking system, and yet no one else from the other side accepts that there are positives to bringing in a ranking system. In fact, TheYango has basically attempted to discredit everything about ranking systems in general, even though I've always acknowledged the fact that there should be a compromise and not some ghetto system like we have right now.And ICCUP sucks, as well as IXDL for various reasons. I think we've always agreed on that fact. The only thing we've disagreed on is that you have faith that such a compromise can happen, whereas I don't think any developer to date has shown enough competency in designing these systems for me to have faith in a suitable compromise being realistically feasible--hence I hugely prefer no ranking system to a shitty one.
The best solution would be to implement a system where IHL's can create their own private matchmaking ques without having to utilize some ghetto client to set everything up for them. Give the players the tools to create their own ladders, rather than forcing players to go outside the client to get something done. I don't even play IXDL anymore simply because I feel that it's too much of a hassle to get a game going.
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On August 30 2013 07:31 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 07:24 PrinceXizor wrote:
Its interesting that this argument always turns into SST + a couple people who rotate around against the entire long term dota playerbase. Hi, I just proved that people can be elitist dicks without a ranking system. Did I just destroy every argument you have made? I think i just did!
It was either one of the dumbest posts in TL history or it's the most amazing ban bait I've ever seen. I myself contemplated taking a ban over responding to it. I think it might have been worth it.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 30 2013 07:35 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 07:33 TheYango wrote:On August 30 2013 06:50 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 06:49 Unleashing wrote:On August 30 2013 06:46 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 06:32 TheYango wrote:On August 30 2013 06:09 superstartran wrote:
It would make recruiting new blood way easier. AdmiralBulldog for example would have gotten noticed way sooner.
I question that. Even if there were a ranked ladder, teams aren't going to be combing the top end of the ladder for new players, because most of these teams recognize that once you're roughly at the top, differences in mindset, attitude, etc. are going to outweigh the difference between being #1 and #10. That's a degree of granularity that's simply not useful. You keep bringing up only arguments that support your position, without ever acknowledging the other side. It's quite painfully obvious how bias you are. The exact same thing applies to you. I've acknowledged that there are problems with bringing in a ranking system, and yet no one else from the other side accepts that there are positives to bringing in a ranking system. In fact, TheYango has basically attempted to discredit everything about ranking systems in general, even though I've always acknowledged the fact that there should be a compromise and not some ghetto system like we have right now.And ICCUP sucks, as well as IXDL for various reasons. I think we've always agreed on that fact. The only thing we've disagreed on is that you have faith that such a compromise can happen, whereas I don't think any developer to date has shown enough competency in designing these systems for me to have faith in a suitable compromise being realistically feasible--hence I hugely prefer no ranking system to a shitty one. The best solution would be to implement a system where IHL's can create their own private matchmaking ques without having to utilize some ghetto client to set everything up for them. Give the players the tools to create their own ladders, rather than forcing players to go outside the client to get something done. I don't even play IXDL anymore simply because I feel that it's too much of a hassle to get a game going.
That's what I've thought from day 1.
Why were we ever arguing again?
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On August 30 2013 07:35 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 07:31 Two_DoWn wrote:On August 30 2013 07:24 PrinceXizor wrote:
Its interesting that this argument always turns into SST + a couple people who rotate around against the entire long term dota playerbase. Hi, I just proved that people can be elitist dicks without a ranking system. Did I just destroy every argument you have made? I think i just did! It was either one of the dumbest posts in TL history or it's the most amazing ban bait I've ever seen. I myself contemplated taking a ban over responding to it. I think it might have been worth it.
Ive eaten bans for worse.
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On August 30 2013 07:36 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 07:35 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 07:33 TheYango wrote:On August 30 2013 06:50 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 06:49 Unleashing wrote:On August 30 2013 06:46 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 06:32 TheYango wrote:On August 30 2013 06:09 superstartran wrote:
It would make recruiting new blood way easier. AdmiralBulldog for example would have gotten noticed way sooner.
I question that. Even if there were a ranked ladder, teams aren't going to be combing the top end of the ladder for new players, because most of these teams recognize that once you're roughly at the top, differences in mindset, attitude, etc. are going to outweigh the difference between being #1 and #10. That's a degree of granularity that's simply not useful. You keep bringing up only arguments that support your position, without ever acknowledging the other side. It's quite painfully obvious how bias you are. The exact same thing applies to you. I've acknowledged that there are problems with bringing in a ranking system, and yet no one else from the other side accepts that there are positives to bringing in a ranking system. In fact, TheYango has basically attempted to discredit everything about ranking systems in general, even though I've always acknowledged the fact that there should be a compromise and not some ghetto system like we have right now.And ICCUP sucks, as well as IXDL for various reasons. I think we've always agreed on that fact. The only thing we've disagreed on is that you have faith that such a compromise can happen, whereas I don't think any developer to date has shown enough competency in designing these systems for me to have faith in a suitable compromise being realistically feasible--hence I hugely prefer no ranking system to a shitty one. The best solution would be to implement a system where IHL's can create their own private matchmaking ques without having to utilize some ghetto client to set everything up for them. Give the players the tools to create their own ladders, rather than forcing players to go outside the client to get something done. I don't even play IXDL anymore simply because I feel that it's too much of a hassle to get a game going. That's what I've thought from day 1. Why were we ever arguing again?
Hell if I know. Probably just me being flustered that I have to play ridiculous games on page 1 where my teammates are all idiots that don't even know how to play pubstar DotA let alone competitive level DotA.
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On August 30 2013 07:36 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 07:35 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 07:33 TheYango wrote:On August 30 2013 06:50 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 06:49 Unleashing wrote:On August 30 2013 06:46 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 06:32 TheYango wrote:On August 30 2013 06:09 superstartran wrote:
It would make recruiting new blood way easier. AdmiralBulldog for example would have gotten noticed way sooner.
I question that. Even if there were a ranked ladder, teams aren't going to be combing the top end of the ladder for new players, because most of these teams recognize that once you're roughly at the top, differences in mindset, attitude, etc. are going to outweigh the difference between being #1 and #10. That's a degree of granularity that's simply not useful. You keep bringing up only arguments that support your position, without ever acknowledging the other side. It's quite painfully obvious how bias you are. The exact same thing applies to you. I've acknowledged that there are problems with bringing in a ranking system, and yet no one else from the other side accepts that there are positives to bringing in a ranking system. In fact, TheYango has basically attempted to discredit everything about ranking systems in general, even though I've always acknowledged the fact that there should be a compromise and not some ghetto system like we have right now.And ICCUP sucks, as well as IXDL for various reasons. I think we've always agreed on that fact. The only thing we've disagreed on is that you have faith that such a compromise can happen, whereas I don't think any developer to date has shown enough competency in designing these systems for me to have faith in a suitable compromise being realistically feasible--hence I hugely prefer no ranking system to a shitty one. The best solution would be to implement a system where IHL's can create their own private matchmaking ques without having to utilize some ghetto client to set everything up for them. Give the players the tools to create their own ladders, rather than forcing players to go outside the client to get something done. I don't even play IXDL anymore simply because I feel that it's too much of a hassle to get a game going. That's what I've thought from day 1. Why were we ever arguing again?
Make-up kiss!
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On August 30 2013 07:33 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 06:50 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 06:49 Unleashing wrote:On August 30 2013 06:46 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 06:32 TheYango wrote:On August 30 2013 06:09 superstartran wrote:
It would make recruiting new blood way easier. AdmiralBulldog for example would have gotten noticed way sooner.
I question that. Even if there were a ranked ladder, teams aren't going to be combing the top end of the ladder for new players, because most of these teams recognize that once you're roughly at the top, differences in mindset, attitude, etc. are going to outweigh the difference between being #1 and #10. That's a degree of granularity that's simply not useful. You keep bringing up only arguments that support your position, without ever acknowledging the other side. It's quite painfully obvious how bias you are. The exact same thing applies to you. I've acknowledged that there are problems with bringing in a ranking system, and yet no one else from the other side accepts that there are positives to bringing in a ranking system. In fact, TheYango has basically attempted to discredit everything about ranking systems in general, even though I've always acknowledged the fact that there should be a compromise and not some ghetto system like we have right now.And ICCUP sucks, as well as IXDL for various reasons. I think we've always agreed on that fact. The only thing we've disagreed on is that you have faith that such a compromise can happen, whereas I don't think any developer to date has shown enough competency in designing these systems for me to have faith in a suitable compromise being realistically feasible--hence I hugely prefer no ranking system to a shitty one.
How do you judge one to be shitty though? Is LoL system shitty? Do you prefer LoL don't have the ranking system at all? If LoL system is not shitty, do you want Dota2 to have a system like that?
It's all vague talk here. Everyone knows it's not possible to make a perfect system, but I can settle with the 2nd or the 3rd best system.
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Everybody ignores my drama post 
I'd just be happy if there was a top 500 MMR list or something so the game would be slightly more competitive at the higher levels of play (and so pubstars can get "discovered" etc) and no bad players will have their illusions shattered.
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28103 Posts
On August 30 2013 07:36 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 07:35 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 07:33 TheYango wrote:On August 30 2013 06:50 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 06:49 Unleashing wrote:On August 30 2013 06:46 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 06:32 TheYango wrote:On August 30 2013 06:09 superstartran wrote:
It would make recruiting new blood way easier. AdmiralBulldog for example would have gotten noticed way sooner.
I question that. Even if there were a ranked ladder, teams aren't going to be combing the top end of the ladder for new players, because most of these teams recognize that once you're roughly at the top, differences in mindset, attitude, etc. are going to outweigh the difference between being #1 and #10. That's a degree of granularity that's simply not useful. You keep bringing up only arguments that support your position, without ever acknowledging the other side. It's quite painfully obvious how bias you are. The exact same thing applies to you. I've acknowledged that there are problems with bringing in a ranking system, and yet no one else from the other side accepts that there are positives to bringing in a ranking system. In fact, TheYango has basically attempted to discredit everything about ranking systems in general, even though I've always acknowledged the fact that there should be a compromise and not some ghetto system like we have right now.And ICCUP sucks, as well as IXDL for various reasons. I think we've always agreed on that fact. The only thing we've disagreed on is that you have faith that such a compromise can happen, whereas I don't think any developer to date has shown enough competency in designing these systems for me to have faith in a suitable compromise being realistically feasible--hence I hugely prefer no ranking system to a shitty one. The best solution would be to implement a system where IHL's can create their own private matchmaking ques without having to utilize some ghetto client to set everything up for them. Give the players the tools to create their own ladders, rather than forcing players to go outside the client to get something done. I don't even play IXDL anymore simply because I feel that it's too much of a hassle to get a game going. That's what I've thought from day 1. Why were we ever arguing again?
This is the internet, arguing is the way of life here 
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United States47024 Posts
You could probably get something like a top 100 list if you scraped data from the games in the first 20 pages of live games and kept a tally on how often people ended up on which page.
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On August 30 2013 07:43 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 07:33 TheYango wrote:On August 30 2013 06:50 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 06:49 Unleashing wrote:On August 30 2013 06:46 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 06:32 TheYango wrote:On August 30 2013 06:09 superstartran wrote:
It would make recruiting new blood way easier. AdmiralBulldog for example would have gotten noticed way sooner.
I question that. Even if there were a ranked ladder, teams aren't going to be combing the top end of the ladder for new players, because most of these teams recognize that once you're roughly at the top, differences in mindset, attitude, etc. are going to outweigh the difference between being #1 and #10. That's a degree of granularity that's simply not useful. You keep bringing up only arguments that support your position, without ever acknowledging the other side. It's quite painfully obvious how bias you are. The exact same thing applies to you. I've acknowledged that there are problems with bringing in a ranking system, and yet no one else from the other side accepts that there are positives to bringing in a ranking system. In fact, TheYango has basically attempted to discredit everything about ranking systems in general, even though I've always acknowledged the fact that there should be a compromise and not some ghetto system like we have right now.And ICCUP sucks, as well as IXDL for various reasons. I think we've always agreed on that fact. The only thing we've disagreed on is that you have faith that such a compromise can happen, whereas I don't think any developer to date has shown enough competency in designing these systems for me to have faith in a suitable compromise being realistically feasible--hence I hugely prefer no ranking system to a shitty one. How do you judge one to be shitty though? Is LoL system shitty? Do you prefer LoL don't have the ranking system at all? If LoL system is not shitty, do you want Dota2 to have a system like that? It's all vague talk here. Everyone knows it's not possible to make a perfect system, but I can settle with the 2nd or the 3rd best system.
Personally, I had no problem with the original LoL system where you just had a number ranking based on winning and losing.
As much as people hate it, at the end of the day the only thing that matters is killing the throne. If you are somehow inherently better at killing thrones than other people, that will bear out no matter what role you are on.
The downside of the LoL system was where they introduced new players. The system put players in at the theory that they were "average" and let them float up and down from there. IMO you should start below average and have to work up.
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It's been months since I've seen T_D or PrinceXizor shoot flames that hard
some straight up nostalgia right here
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United States47024 Posts
On August 30 2013 07:48 Two_DoWn wrote:
The downside of the LoL system was where they introduced new players. The system put players in at the theory that they were "average" and let them float up and down from there. IMO you should start below average and have to work up.
In order to do that, the system has to be not zero-sum, because if it's a zero sum system, the starting value is going to be "average" by nature.
It would require something other than an Elo system, which in turn would require a revamp of matchmaking.
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On August 30 2013 07:46 TheYango wrote:
You could probably get something like a top 100 list if you scraped data from the games in the first 20 pages of live games and kept a tally on how often people ended up on which page.
I don't really know.. My main account has like 50%+ games on page 1 and I really doubt it's even top 500. Does anybody know if streaks affect ELO? My alt account that I just used to play mid level games with friends has spiked to playing page 5 games and it's becoming impossible to get good games with casual friends :/
Edit: Though I think I might play a bit off hours. What are the busiest hours for good players? Any guesses+
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Coming from communities with easily accessible ladders (BW, WC3, SC2), it remains my biggest complaint about Dota. I am a competitive dick and I like "tracking" my progress and working towards goals. Dota games feel absolutely meaningless to me at the moment. They are fun, but in a light-hearted, who-cares-if-I-lose kind of way.
I want to try hard on a ranked ladder with other try hards. Is that wrong? I'm personally fine with diminishing the legitimacy of unranked players. If they care enough, they can ladder. If they don't, they don't.
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I would like a ladder too, no idea why its not implemented when all games have some form of ladder . I'm fairly competitive coming from BW where i played iccup alot. Ladder can be a plus and you still keep the hidden mmr on normal games.
On another not i got my first win with fuzzy wuzzy wohoo! No more 0% ratio with him.
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