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On August 30 2013 07:02 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 06:56 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 06:54 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 30 2013 06:50 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 06:49 Unleashing wrote:On August 30 2013 06:46 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 06:32 TheYango wrote:On August 30 2013 06:09 superstartran wrote:
It would make recruiting new blood way easier. AdmiralBulldog for example would have gotten noticed way sooner.
I question that. Even if there were a ranked ladder, teams aren't going to be combing the top end of the ladder for new players, because most of these teams recognize that once you're roughly at the top, differences in mindset, attitude, etc. are going to outweigh the difference between being #1 and #10. That's a degree of granularity that's simply not useful. You keep bringing up only arguments that support your position, without ever acknowledging the other side. It's quite painfully obvious how bias you are. The exact same thing applies to you. I've acknowledged that there are problems with bringing in a ranking system, and yet no one else from the other side accepts that there are positives to bringing in a ranking system. In fact, TheYango has basically attempted to discredit everything about ranking systems in general, even though I've always acknowledged the fact that there should be a compromise and not some ghetto system like we have right now. And ICCUP sucks, as well as IXDL for various reasons. WE HAVE a compromise: go play private ladders. Valve even makes it easy to set up. if you don't like the current ladders, go make one of your own. If you aren't willing to fix your perceived problem, and are still willing to complain about all the options you are presented, then you won't be happy with anything. Valve does not make it easy to setup IHL games. You must be fucking high or something. You have to go out of your way through a website or some ghetto client, setup the game, get the correct settings, set the correct server, then make sure all 10 people are not afk. This is all on top of either abusive admins, or people who are friends with admins that attempt to get you banned like every 3 games because you stomped them middle or something silly. Riot does not make it easy to setup Ranked games. You must be fucking high or something. You have to go out of your way through a website or some ghetto client, setup the game, get the correct settings, set the correct mode, then make sure all 10 people are not afk. This is all on top of Either abusive players, or people who are friends with abusive players that attempt to get you rbanned like every 3 games because you stomped them middle or something silly. S2 does not make it easy to setup ranked games. you must be fucking high or something. You have to go out of your way through a website and some ghetto client, setup the game, get the correct settings, set the correct server, then make sure all 10 people are not afk. this is all on top of either abusive admins, or abusive players that attempt to get you banned like every 3 games because you stomped them middle or something silly.
And yet you still havent given a decent answer to the simple comeback: if you dont like it, dont play it. Why prevent other people from enjoying a system when your choice is simply to ignore that it exists with no personal detriment to yourself?
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On August 30 2013 07:02 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 06:56 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 06:54 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 30 2013 06:50 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 06:49 Unleashing wrote:On August 30 2013 06:46 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 06:32 TheYango wrote:On August 30 2013 06:09 superstartran wrote:
It would make recruiting new blood way easier. AdmiralBulldog for example would have gotten noticed way sooner.
I question that. Even if there were a ranked ladder, teams aren't going to be combing the top end of the ladder for new players, because most of these teams recognize that once you're roughly at the top, differences in mindset, attitude, etc. are going to outweigh the difference between being #1 and #10. That's a degree of granularity that's simply not useful. You keep bringing up only arguments that support your position, without ever acknowledging the other side. It's quite painfully obvious how bias you are. The exact same thing applies to you. I've acknowledged that there are problems with bringing in a ranking system, and yet no one else from the other side accepts that there are positives to bringing in a ranking system. In fact, TheYango has basically attempted to discredit everything about ranking systems in general, even though I've always acknowledged the fact that there should be a compromise and not some ghetto system like we have right now. And ICCUP sucks, as well as IXDL for various reasons. WE HAVE a compromise: go play private ladders. Valve even makes it easy to set up. if you don't like the current ladders, go make one of your own. If you aren't willing to fix your perceived problem, and are still willing to complain about all the options you are presented, then you won't be happy with anything. Valve does not make it easy to setup IHL games. You must be fucking high or something. You have to go out of your way through a website or some ghetto client, setup the game, get the correct settings, set the correct server, then make sure all 10 people are not afk. This is all on top of either abusive admins, or people who are friends with admins that attempt to get you banned like every 3 games because you stomped them middle or something silly. Riot does not make it easy to setup Ranked games. You must be fucking high or something. You have to go out of your way through a website or some ghetto client, setup the game, get the correct settings, set the correct mode, then make sure all 10 people are not afk. This is all on top of Either abusive players, or people who are friends with abusive players that attempt to get you rbanned like every 3 games because you stomped them middle or something silly. S2 does not make it easy to setup ranked games. you must be fucking high or something. You have to go out of your way through a website and some ghetto client, setup the game, get the correct settings, set the correct server, then make sure all 10 people are not afk. this is all on top of either abusive admins, or abusive players that attempt to get you banned like every 3 games because you stomped them middle or something silly.
If you seriously can't tell the convenience of having everything setup in-game versus having to alt tab back and forth through a website or secondary client, I really don't know what to tell you.
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On August 30 2013 07:06 Two_DoWn wrote:
And yet you still havent given a decent answer to the simple comeback: if you dont like it, dont play it. Why prevent other people from enjoying a system when your choice is simply to ignore that it exists with no personal detriment to yourself?
This has been answered multiple times every single time ranking is brought up.
the existence of a ranked ladder inherently affects the non ranked ladder negatively.
On August 30 2013 07:07 superstartran wrote:
If you seriously can't tell the convenience of having everything setup in-game versus having to alt tab back and forth through a website or secondary client, I really don't know what to tell you.
Ooooh so you are complaining that valves chat channels aren't very good. I'd agree with that.
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On August 30 2013 07:07 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 07:06 Two_DoWn wrote:
And yet you still havent given a decent answer to the simple comeback: if you dont like it, dont play it. Why prevent other people from enjoying a system when your choice is simply to ignore that it exists with no personal detriment to yourself? This has been answered multiple times every single time ranking is brought up. the existence of a ranked ladder inherently affects the non ranked ladder negatively.
I have yet to hear a such reasons. Please lay out this line of argument in an intelligent way so that I might rebut or agree if I so choose.
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On August 30 2013 07:07 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 07:06 Two_DoWn wrote:
And yet you still havent given a decent answer to the simple comeback: if you dont like it, dont play it. Why prevent other people from enjoying a system when your choice is simply to ignore that it exists with no personal detriment to yourself? This has been answered multiple times every single time ranking is brought up. the existence of a ranked ladder inherently affects the non ranked ladder negatively. Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 07:07 superstartran wrote:
If you seriously can't tell the convenience of having everything setup in-game versus having to alt tab back and forth through a website or secondary client, I really don't know what to tell you. Ooooh so you are complaining that valves chat channels aren't very good. I'd agree with that.
How does ranked ladder affect non ranked ladder negativity when the non ranked ladder players almost never encounter ranked players in the first place?
This is exactly why it is almost a non-issue in League of Legends. Non-ladder players get to play their fun, non-serious trolly type games, while 'ladder' players get to play a more serious and non trolly type game. Everyone wins.
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On August 30 2013 07:07 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 07:06 Two_DoWn wrote:
And yet you still havent given a decent answer to the simple comeback: if you dont like it, dont play it. Why prevent other people from enjoying a system when your choice is simply to ignore that it exists with no personal detriment to yourself? This has been answered multiple times every single time ranking is brought up. the existence of a ranked ladder inherently affects the non ranked ladder negatively. Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 07:07 superstartran wrote:
If you seriously can't tell the convenience of having everything setup in-game versus having to alt tab back and forth through a website or secondary client, I really don't know what to tell you. Ooooh so you are complaining that valves chat channels aren't very good. I'd agree with that.
The only negative effect is that people won't take it seriously, but if you're playing unranked you probably shouldn't give a shit since you aren't taking it seriously.
I've yet to hear a legitimate argument against an optional ranked ladder.
I've heard:
it will split the community!
It will only help split up the people who already hate playing with each other, the tryhands and the give a fucks.
it will marginalize the unranked ladder!
there is already no valve in the unranked ladder, if you cared about your ranking or skill level you'd play ranked, if you don't you'd play unranked and nothing would change.
we will get flamed to death on unranked for being 'bads'.
who gives a shit? people flame over anything and everything online. You already don't care about your rank because you're electing to play unranked, why would you care if some idiot called you bad?
Those are the most common 'arguments' and they are completely stupid.
anecdote time: I have a group of friends that play LoL, I asked them what their ranks were or what modes they played, they didn't even know the ranking structure (gold, plat, diamond etc) and only play ARAM, BOTS, or unranked Public mode or whatever it's called. Guess what? They all have a lot of fun and don't give a shit about rankings or esports. They barely even knew what the LCS was.
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On August 30 2013 07:02 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 06:59 canikizu wrote:On August 30 2013 06:27 TheEmulator wrote:
It's not about wanting to see improvement, or waving around my e-penis. It's about being a competitive individual who gets enjoyment out of having specific goals to reach in a competitive environment. What's wrong about that? I agree. I don't think most people who play rank in SC2 or LoL want to be the next Flash or Doublelift or something. What ranking does is to put people who have the same mindset together. In normal games, people join the game with different attitude, some are drunk, some are trolling, some have 15min to spare, some stack.... I don't want to play games like that, win or lose it always feel like a waste of time. Of course rank is not the best answer of everything, but it's equally stupid to think that if you can't have the best answer, you shouldn't aim for the 2nd best at all. Valve could just make it so that you can make your own private matchmaking que. That would work equally as well as a normal que. The problem that IXDL and ICCUP both have is that you have to go through all this nonsense just to get a game going, and that's already on top of pick/bans which takes another few minutes. Not everyone has 3 hours just to play one game; some people just want to play a non-trollish type game without having to go through the hassle. Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 07:01 Yoshi- wrote:On August 30 2013 06:46 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 06:32 TheYango wrote:On August 30 2013 06:09 superstartran wrote:
It would make recruiting new blood way easier. AdmiralBulldog for example would have gotten noticed way sooner.
I question that. Even if there were a ranked ladder, teams aren't going to be combing the top end of the ladder for new players, because most of these teams recognize that once you're roughly at the top, differences in mindset, attitude, etc. are going to outweigh the difference between being #1 and #10. That's a degree of granularity that's simply not useful. You keep bringing up only arguments that support your position, without ever acknowledging the other side. It's quite painfully obvious how biased you are. The difference between #1 and #10 isn't great, but the difference between #1 and say #100 is astronomical. And the #100 player isn't some scrub, he's pretty good, but he's not someone a pro team would look at. The reason why pro teams almost never change players in DotA is because there has almost never been a reliable way to weed out players without actually having to play with them or go through the painful process of watching a replay. If there was a number attached, pro teams could easily just weed out everyone below top 50 and go from there. On August 30 2013 06:12 Yoshi- wrote:On August 30 2013 06:09 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 05:52 TheYango wrote:
I don't really see why pros would care either way. They have nothing to prove and they're all capable of judging how good someone is based on their play rather than a number. It would make recruiting new blood way easier. AdmiralBulldog for example would have gotten noticed way sooner. On August 30 2013 05:45 TheEmulator wrote:
I would love a ranking system. I really like to be competitive and having a goal to reach would be awesome.
But I agree, the general consensus seems against it. I can understand that people might have anxiety about it, kind of like in sc2. Pretty much every poll I see is the exact opposite. It's just the most 'vocal' are the ones who oppose it. That's a pretty dumb logic, if anything the "vocal" ones are in favor of it. And people that vote in poll represent pretty much nothing valuable. And the AdmiralBulldog part is just pure speculative you can't really be serious about that. Polls don't support my argument? Must discredit them! Okay lets make a poll, lets ask 1000 nazi what they think about immigrants, then lets extrapolate that data onto the entire population, ohh look seems like everyone hates immigrants. Or in a few weeks there is election in germany, if you look at some internet polls of the big newspaper you see parties that most probably will between 1 and 5 percent, having above 20% A poll is worth shit, if the people voting in the poll don't represnt the majority of people. So should I explain you anything else that you didn't understand in school and want me to explain? Maybe how babies are made? And fyi I never said that I was against a ranking, I am just againt terrible arguments. So taking multiple polls from different websites isn't accurate? What? Did you ever take basic statistics? Go back to school. If I'm taking multiple polls (which I've looked at across VARIOUS sites such as Reddit, Joindota, Teamliquid, Dota 2 Dev Forums, etc. all who cater to different types of players), I'm fairly certain that although I'm not going to be pinpoint accurate, it's still decent enough that I can say that a vast majority wouldn't mind a ranked mode at all.
All of those sites pretty much cater to the same group of people. the majority of people don't fucking go to forums.
and for obviously reason there is a huge overlap between the userbase forum.
I would claim that pretty much everyone who goes to one of the site, also visits/has an account on some of the others, I have an account of pretty much all of those sites.
People that regulary browse forums are the vocal minority and there is pretty much no logic in extrapolating those polls result onto the entire dota2 population.
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Both superstartran and Two_DoWn, go and read the thread before bringing this up again. It has been brought up about 10000x in this thread. ranked games make it so unranked has a negative stigma around it.
Please stop it with a discussion that has been beaten to death and actually go read the thread, there's a search function for a reason
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On August 30 2013 07:12 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 07:07 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 30 2013 07:06 Two_DoWn wrote:
And yet you still havent given a decent answer to the simple comeback: if you dont like it, dont play it. Why prevent other people from enjoying a system when your choice is simply to ignore that it exists with no personal detriment to yourself? This has been answered multiple times every single time ranking is brought up. the existence of a ranked ladder inherently affects the non ranked ladder negatively. On August 30 2013 07:07 superstartran wrote:
If you seriously can't tell the convenience of having everything setup in-game versus having to alt tab back and forth through a website or secondary client, I really don't know what to tell you. Ooooh so you are complaining that valves chat channels aren't very good. I'd agree with that. The only negative effect is that people won't take it seriously, but if you're playing unranked you probably shouldn't give a shit since you aren't taking it seriously. I've yet to hear a legitimate argument against an optional ranked ladder. I've heard: it will split the community!
It will only help split up the people who already hate playing with each other, the tryhands and the give a fucks. it will marginalize the unranked ladder!there is already no valve in the unranked ladder, if you cared about your ranking or skill level you'd play ranked, if you don't you'd play unranked and nothing would change. we will get flamed to death on unranked for being 'bads'. who gives a shit? people flame over anything and everything online. You already don't care about your rank because you're electing to play unranked, why would you care if some idiot called you bad? Those are the most common 'arguments' and they are completely stupid.
Not to mention the incidents of ranked player flaming unranked player would be extremely low considering an unranked player probably won't even be participating in things such as balance discussions, competitive team discussions, etc.
On August 30 2013 07:14 CustomKal wrote:
Both superstartran and Two_DoWn, go and read the thread before bringing this up again. It has been brought up about 10000x in this thread. ranked games make it so unranked has a negative stigma around it.
Please stop it with a discussion that has been beaten to death and actually go read the thread, there's a search function for a reason
The negative stigma argument is completely overblown. Especially when people keep trying to bring up this non-existent negative stigma for playing unranked in League of Legends.
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On August 30 2013 07:14 CustomKal wrote:
Both superstartran and Two_DoWn, go and read the thread before bringing this up again. It has been brought up about 10000x in this thread. ranked games make it so unranked has a negative stigma around it.
Please stop it with a discussion that has been beaten to death and actually go read the thread, there's a search function for a reason
It isnt a banned topic, and the discussion clearly shows there is a difference of opinion that people are interested in discussing. If you dont like it, come back when the discussion has moved on to something else. Its one of the joys of an online forum.
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On August 30 2013 07:14 superstartran wrote:
The negative stigma argument is completely overblown. Especially when people keep trying to bring up this non-existent negative stigma for playing unranked in League of Legends.
Go to League of legends reddit right now and say that you think that X champion works well in X position and you've been overwhelmingly successful in normal games doing it. See what happens. you seem incredibly ignorant.
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On August 30 2013 07:17 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 07:14 superstartran wrote:
The negative stigma argument is completely overblown. Especially when people keep trying to bring up this non-existent negative stigma for playing unranked in League of Legends. Go to League of legends reddit right now and say that you think that X champion works well in X position and you've been overwhelmingly successful in normal games doing it. See what happens. you seem incredibly ignorant.
Except a person who plays unranked/normal probably doesn't even care enough to post on the forums.
Something like 80% of the population plays normals last time I checked. I think that number has actually increased since the introduction of things like Dominion and other game modes. The belief that somehow there's a negative stigma around normals/unranked is complete bullshit.
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On August 30 2013 07:17 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 07:14 superstartran wrote:
The negative stigma argument is completely overblown. Especially when people keep trying to bring up this non-existent negative stigma for playing unranked in League of Legends. Go to League of legends reddit right now and say that you think that X champion works well in X position and you've been overwhelmingly successful in normal games doing it. See what happens. you seem incredibly ignorant.
Try telling someone how to play a hero in X position in X way and then tell me if anyone asked how long you have played Dota for (which patch) and if you are on the first 3 pages of live games when you play.
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On August 30 2013 07:18 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 07:17 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 30 2013 07:14 superstartran wrote:
The negative stigma argument is completely overblown. Especially when people keep trying to bring up this non-existent negative stigma for playing unranked in League of Legends. Go to League of legends reddit right now and say that you think that X champion works well in X position and you've been overwhelmingly successful in normal games doing it. See what happens. you seem incredibly ignorant. Except a person who plays unranked/normal probably doesn't even care enough to post on the forums.
On August 30 2013 07:17 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 07:14 superstartran wrote:
The negative stigma argument is completely overblown. Especially when people keep trying to bring up this non-existent negative stigma for playing unranked in League of Legends. Go to League of legends reddit right now and say that you think that X champion works well in X position and you've been overwhelmingly successful in normal games doing it. See what happens. you seem incredibly ignorant.
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LITTLE DRAMA QUESTION HERE
Both the SC II and Dota II subreddits had a Fragbite.se masters tournament announced, and as far as I can see Fragbite.se also arranged https://www.facebook.com/ThorOpen from last year where some players (EE-sama holy is his name) still haven't received their prize money?
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On August 30 2013 07:19 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 07:18 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 07:17 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 30 2013 07:14 superstartran wrote:
The negative stigma argument is completely overblown. Especially when people keep trying to bring up this non-existent negative stigma for playing unranked in League of Legends. Go to League of legends reddit right now and say that you think that X champion works well in X position and you've been overwhelmingly successful in normal games doing it. See what happens. you seem incredibly ignorant. Except a person who plays unranked/normal probably doesn't even care enough to post on the forums. Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 07:17 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 30 2013 07:14 superstartran wrote:
The negative stigma argument is completely overblown. Especially when people keep trying to bring up this non-existent negative stigma for playing unranked in League of Legends. Go to League of legends reddit right now and say that you think that X champion works well in X position and you've been overwhelmingly successful in normal games doing it. See what happens. you seem incredibly ignorant.
You are not even understanding my point.
A person that plays unranked/normals will likely never encounter this so called 'negative' stigma (which doesn't even exist because a unranked/normal player could give a rats ass about playing optimally) because they are too busy having fun playing.
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Its interesting that this argument always turns into SST + a couple people who rotate around against the entire long term dota playerbase.
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Everyone is overlooking the most obvious and easy solution to all of these problems.
If everyone was can just be worse at the game you don't need to worry about things like ladders. Once you all are at my level of playing, it won't matter because you're so bad that you don't care about what you or anyone else's rating is. Problem solved! /sarcasm.
Moving on to a topic that has a chance at resolution sometime this century:
I played a bit of Dota 1 the other day and Kaolin was pretty fun. All of the various decisions about when to use rocks was awesome. It kind of felt like a cross between Timbersaw, Storm Spirit and (a less bad version) of Techies in a weird way. That probably isn't right, but that's how it felt to me. Also I really really suck at Dota 1. Like new levels of bad. That hero is going to be tons of fun when he comes over to Dota 2. I suspect he is in need of some balance changes though.
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On August 30 2013 07:24 PrinceXizor wrote:
Its interesting that this argument always turns into SST + a couple people who rotate around against the entire long term dota playerbase.
the best part of this post is I think you're actually serious.
'the entire long term dota playerbase'
lol.
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On August 30 2013 06:52 BurningSera wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 06:22 Andr3 wrote:On August 30 2013 06:07 r.Evo wrote:
1+1+1+1+1 vs 1+1+1+1+1 != 5vs5 when it comes to Dota.
tmm has a rating. The only form of competetive Dota at the highest level is 5n5, not a couple of random people thrown together. Want to be competetive yourself? Go find like-minded people and start playing tmm. While not really relevant to this discussion, TMM sux. It just averages the individual MMRs of the people in the team. Winning/losing is basically +2, -2, +1, -2 all day. People would play TMM if it actually had a normal system of rating teams. yeah i just found out recently that TMM is directly added up from individual mmr, jesus valve fix please.
Sooooo.... let's say I have 1 account and want to know track my improvement ("gain 100 points over 1 month").
I get 4 other accounts. Never play them.
Create a team from those 4 accounts and my tryhard account. I see the team MMR is at X?
Now I play my normal games and after 1 month I see I my team has a MMR of X+100 and I'm totally happy since I achieved my goal?
And - just for fun - I create a 5th account. All those new accounts have the same MMR, so I create a team and now know that the starting MMR is X/5. (Which then allows me to exactly know my tryhard accounts MMR).
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EPT
