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On August 30 2013 06:07 r.Evo wrote:
1+1+1+1+1 vs 1+1+1+1+1 != 5vs5 when it comes to Dota.
tmm has a rating. The only form of competetive Dota at the highest level is 5n5, not a couple of random people thrown together. Want to be competetive yourself? Go find like-minded people and start playing tmm.
While not really relevant to this discussion, TMM sux. It just averages the individual MMRs of the people in the team.
Winning/losing is basically +2, -2, +1, -2 all day. People would play TMM if it actually had a normal system of rating teams.
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*sigh* the only legitimate reason to want ranked is so you can wave the size of your e-penis around. It has a noticeably negative effect on every game in the genre its been implemented in. If you want to watch yourself improve. then watch your replays and take notes. you will notice you making less and less mistakes as you try to fix them. you don't need a number to tell you that. especially when the number is impossible to make perfectly accurate.
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28103 Posts
It's not about wanting to see improvement, or waving around my e-penis. It's about being a competitive individual who gets enjoyment out of having specific goals to reach in a competitive environment. What's wrong about that?
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Also another thing is that people actually don't improve at this game. Your ELO get stuck pretty fast, and then you don't really get better relatively to other ppl. Unless you do dumb shit like having bonus pool for playing more but wtv
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United States47024 Posts
On August 30 2013 06:09 superstartran wrote:
It would make recruiting new blood way easier. AdmiralBulldog for example would have gotten noticed way sooner.
I question that. Even if there were a ranked ladder, teams aren't going to be combing the top end of the ladder for new players, because most of these teams recognize that once you're roughly at the top, differences in mindset, attitude, etc. are going to outweigh the difference between being #1 and #10. That's a degree of granularity that's simply not useful.
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On August 30 2013 06:27 TheEmulator wrote:
It's not about wanting to see improvement, or waving around my e-penis. It's about being a competitive individual who gets enjoyment out of having specific goals to reach in a competitive environment. What's wrong about that?
So set a goal. You don't need an arbitrary number system to set goals on. there are more real things to look at than a number.
When you set goals in the real world you go set them and try to accomplish them. you don't need to check your ranking for your town and try to improve your social standing by number.
its easy to say " I won 5 out of 10 games every day this week, next week i want to be winning 6/10 games" and it doesn't take much effort to actually record that. Wanting that number re-enforcement is just being unwilling to do any of the work yourself you want the system to take care of telling you where you are and how you are doing, instead of just reflecting on it yourself.
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France29748 Posts
How I miss wc3 automated tournaments, it could be done in doto imo, like 2 or 3 matches a night, one to three times a week =) Even more matches if possible.
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28103 Posts
On August 30 2013 06:33 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 06:27 TheEmulator wrote:
It's not about wanting to see improvement, or waving around my e-penis. It's about being a competitive individual who gets enjoyment out of having specific goals to reach in a competitive environment. What's wrong about that? So set a goal. You don't need an arbitrary number system to set goals on. there are more real things to look at than a number.
I do set goals all the time. But if you listen to what I said, I am "COMPETITIVE", and I would like something to satisfy my competitive nature.
I already hit the highest levels of MM, what else can I really look to at that will satisfy my competitiveness? I mean I can try to winrate stack or something to satisfy my competitive needs, but that's not as fun as trying to climb a ladder.
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On August 30 2013 06:32 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 06:09 superstartran wrote:
It would make recruiting new blood way easier. AdmiralBulldog for example would have gotten noticed way sooner.
I question that. Even if there were a ranked ladder, teams aren't going to be combing the top end of the ladder for new players, because most of these teams recognize that once you're roughly at the top, differences in mindset, attitude, etc. are going to outweigh the difference between being #1 and #10. That's a degree of granularity that's simply not useful.
To be fair, it isnt so much combing the ladder but being involved with the same players who are all in game together incredibly often. Quite a few LoL teams emerged as a result of high Elo players joining up, or a sponsored team picking up a high Elo player. Vici was put together from Chinese players at the top of the ladder. So it is important IMO.
A well done ranked system, for top players at the very least, exposes pro players to amateurs with a decent ability to win pub games. From there, teams can decide if it is worth exploring trying to train a pubstar.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 30 2013 06:36 TheEmulator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 06:33 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 30 2013 06:27 TheEmulator wrote:
It's not about wanting to see improvement, or waving around my e-penis. It's about being a competitive individual who gets enjoyment out of having specific goals to reach in a competitive environment. What's wrong about that? So set a goal. You don't need an arbitrary number system to set goals on. there are more real things to look at than a number. I do set goals all the time. But if you listen to what I said, I am "COMPETITIVE", and I would like something to satisfy my competitive nature. I already hit the highest levels of MM, what else can I really look to at that will satisfy my competitiveness? I mean I can try to winrate stack or something to satisfy my competitive needs, but that's not as fun as trying to climb a ladder.
I actually think that a visible MMR would actually be most useful for people in normal/high.
When you're in Very High, you already have the semi-reliable metric of how often you queue into games on which page of live games. It's a pain to check that, but someone could probably find a way to scrape that data without Valve having to do any more than they already have.
It's the lower skill brackets that have no real granularity beyond "Normal" and "High".
On August 30 2013 06:37 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 06:32 TheYango wrote:On August 30 2013 06:09 superstartran wrote:
It would make recruiting new blood way easier. AdmiralBulldog for example would have gotten noticed way sooner.
I question that. Even if there were a ranked ladder, teams aren't going to be combing the top end of the ladder for new players, because most of these teams recognize that once you're roughly at the top, differences in mindset, attitude, etc. are going to outweigh the difference between being #1 and #10. That's a degree of granularity that's simply not useful. To be fair, it isnt so much combing the ladder but being involved with the same players who are all in game together incredibly often. Quite a few LoL teams emerged as a result of high Elo players joining up, or a sponsored team picking up a high Elo player. Vici was put together from Chinese players at the top of the ladder. So it is important IMO. A well done ranked system, for top players at the very least, exposes pro players to amateurs with a decent ability to win pub games. From there, teams can decide if it is worth exploring trying to train a pubstar.
That doesn't require visible MMR though. That's essentially possible within the current system provided matchmaking works to an acceptable degree and good players consistently queue into other good players.
The difference between being #1 and #10 is essentially meaningless for this purpose, and within the current system they both fall in the range of "every game they play is on the 1st page"--which is good enough resolution for the purpose of scouting players.
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On August 30 2013 06:36 TheEmulator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 06:33 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 30 2013 06:27 TheEmulator wrote:
It's not about wanting to see improvement, or waving around my e-penis. It's about being a competitive individual who gets enjoyment out of having specific goals to reach in a competitive environment. What's wrong about that? So set a goal. You don't need an arbitrary number system to set goals on. there are more real things to look at than a number. I do set goals all the time. But if you listen to what I said, I am "COMPETITIVE", and I would like something to satisfy my competitive nature. I already hit the highest levels of MM, what else can I really look to at that will satisfy my competitiveness? I mean I can try to winrate stack or something to satisfy my competitive needs, but that's not as fun as trying to climb a ladder.
Set goals to beat the majority of pro players you queue up against. Or Join an inhouse league. BW+Dota were played almost entirely on outside ladders for people serious about it and who were competitive, you don't NEED a valve run system to be competitive.
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decent teams dont even play tmm unfortunately
Or Join an inhouse league
which obviously has a ranking system
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Oh god, not again. Are we discussion a ranking system? I thought we beat this dead horse to a pulp a long time ago. I know, I was there and helped.
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I think the difference is simply that a visible system makes it EASIER.
I mean, just look at the pro migration to IXDL. There is a market for a visible ranked system.
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On August 30 2013 06:36 MrCon wrote:
How I miss wc3 automated tournaments, it could be done in doto imo, like 2 or 3 matches a night, one to three times a week =) Even more matches if possible.
BLC had a really awesome automated in-client tournament system aswell. I'd be thrilled to see something like that in Dota 2.
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On August 30 2013 06:41 teddyoojo wrote:decent teams dont even play tmm unfortunately which obviously has a ranking system
right. a private ladder. Why complain valve doesn't have one when there are ladders you can join on your own. BW players didn't Bitch about the crap BNET all the time, they understood they should be going to ICCUP, Fish or Brain for example.
On August 30 2013 06:43 Two_DoWn wrote:
I think the difference is simply that a visible system makes it EASIER.
I mean, just look at the pro migration to IXDL. There is a market for a visible ranked system.
If you are a "COMPETITIVE" player you shouldn't be concerned about making things super easy for yourself and babying yourself with the system. you should be seeking out those competitions or creating your own. not complaining until one gets hand delivered to you. thats not a competitive player.
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28103 Posts
On August 30 2013 06:41 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 06:36 TheEmulator wrote:On August 30 2013 06:33 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 30 2013 06:27 TheEmulator wrote:
It's not about wanting to see improvement, or waving around my e-penis. It's about being a competitive individual who gets enjoyment out of having specific goals to reach in a competitive environment. What's wrong about that? So set a goal. You don't need an arbitrary number system to set goals on. there are more real things to look at than a number. I do set goals all the time. But if you listen to what I said, I am "COMPETITIVE", and I would like something to satisfy my competitive nature. I already hit the highest levels of MM, what else can I really look to at that will satisfy my competitiveness? I mean I can try to winrate stack or something to satisfy my competitive needs, but that's not as fun as trying to climb a ladder. Set goals to beat the majority of pro players you queue up against. Or Join an inhouse league. BW+Dota were played almost entirely on outside ladders for people serious about it and who were competitive, you don't NEED a valve run system to be competitive.
I don't think you are getting my point of view. I understand there are tons of ways to satisfy my competitiveness. But in my personal opinion, I think visible ladders are the funnest way to do that. End of story. I already do everything you mentioned and I still yearn for more.
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On August 30 2013 06:43 Two_DoWn wrote:
I think the difference is simply that a visible system makes it EASIER.
I mean, just look at the pro migration to IXDL. There is a market for a visible ranked system.
There's a market for CM games when you don't have to stack and u want to play seriously. It's a completely different thing. And it's good. If you really want to play those kind of games, play IXDL-o. Having it on main ladder would just stigmatize half the community that don't want those kind of games or even more.
The sole fact that people are even proposing ranked when you only play AP games in MM is staggering. AP is far from being a competitive mode, it's the most casual mode possible, pick 5 carries, pick randoms, pick same hero every game. Good luck doing that in leagues.
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On August 30 2013 06:32 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 06:09 superstartran wrote:
It would make recruiting new blood way easier. AdmiralBulldog for example would have gotten noticed way sooner.
I question that. Even if there were a ranked ladder, teams aren't going to be combing the top end of the ladder for new players, because most of these teams recognize that once you're roughly at the top, differences in mindset, attitude, etc. are going to outweigh the difference between being #1 and #10. That's a degree of granularity that's simply not useful.
You keep bringing up only arguments that support your position, without ever acknowledging the other side. It's quite painfully obvious how biased you are.
The difference between #1 and #10 isn't great, but the difference between #1 and say #100 is astronomical. And the #100 player isn't some scrub, he's pretty good, but he's not someone a pro team would look at. The reason why pro teams almost never change players in DotA is because there has almost never been a reliable way to weed out players without actually having to play with them or go through the painful process of watching a replay. If there was a number attached, pro teams could easily just weed out everyone below top 50 and go from there.
On August 30 2013 06:12 Yoshi- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 06:09 superstartran wrote:On August 30 2013 05:52 TheYango wrote:
I don't really see why pros would care either way. They have nothing to prove and they're all capable of judging how good someone is based on their play rather than a number. It would make recruiting new blood way easier. AdmiralBulldog for example would have gotten noticed way sooner. On August 30 2013 05:45 TheEmulator wrote:
I would love a ranking system. I really like to be competitive and having a goal to reach would be awesome.
But I agree, the general consensus seems against it. I can understand that people might have anxiety about it, kind of like in sc2. Pretty much every poll I see is the exact opposite. It's just the most 'vocal' are the ones who oppose it. That's a pretty dumb logic, if anything the "vocal" ones are in favor of it. And people that vote in poll represent pretty much nothing valuable. And the AdmiralBulldog part is just pure speculative you can't really be serious about that.
Polls don't support my argument? Must discredit them!
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On August 30 2013 06:45 TheEmulator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 06:41 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 30 2013 06:36 TheEmulator wrote:On August 30 2013 06:33 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 30 2013 06:27 TheEmulator wrote:
It's not about wanting to see improvement, or waving around my e-penis. It's about being a competitive individual who gets enjoyment out of having specific goals to reach in a competitive environment. What's wrong about that? So set a goal. You don't need an arbitrary number system to set goals on. there are more real things to look at than a number. I do set goals all the time. But if you listen to what I said, I am "COMPETITIVE", and I would like something to satisfy my competitive nature. I already hit the highest levels of MM, what else can I really look to at that will satisfy my competitiveness? I mean I can try to winrate stack or something to satisfy my competitive needs, but that's not as fun as trying to climb a ladder. Set goals to beat the majority of pro players you queue up against. Or Join an inhouse league. BW+Dota were played almost entirely on outside ladders for people serious about it and who were competitive, you don't NEED a valve run system to be competitive. I don't think you are getting my point of view. I understand there are tons of ways to satisfy my competitiveness. But in my personal opinion, I think visible ladders are the funnest way to do that. End of story. I already do everything you mentioned and I still yearn for more.
Join a team and enter open tournaments. that's the next step for people who are doing everything they can to be competitive in dota. If you aren't happy climbing IXDL-I ladder then you won't be happy climbing random valve ladder.
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EPT
