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On November 08 2010 20:54 _Quasar_ wrote:
"Anyone" didn't contribute to them so much as Koreans...
for example if someone cracks SC2 or so - they should sue them.
But not the korean pro scene. Their influence on success of these games is FAR too big.
Korea is fine and koreans have access to BW, they have to go through the korean owned Gretech corp to get permission to broadcast or give Gretech corp some way to broadcast games with the players. Right now there is a failed korean interaction that has nothing to do with blizzard since blizzard sold the rights to gretech.
If OGN had simply gotten permission from the KOREAN owned and operated gretech this wouldnt be happening.
Gretech paid blizzard and negotiated with them to get this deal, if it isnt enforced in some way then gretech spent a lot of money on the rights and gets nothing in return...
PS: I really wish you would just stop posting in this thread, your opinions are even more biased than most people, and most of your comments are horrendously dumb that just repeat the same thing over and over and over again.
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On November 08 2010 21:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2010 20:54 _Quasar_ wrote:
"Anyone" didn't contribute to them so much as Koreans...
for example if someone cracks SC2 or so - they should sue them.
But not the korean pro scene. Their influence on success of these games is FAR too big. Korea is fine and koreans have access to BW, they have to go through the korean owned Gretech corp to get permission to broadcast or give Gretech corp some way to broadcast games with the players. Right now there is a failed korean interaction that has nothing to do with blizzard since blizzard sold the rights to gretech. If OGN had simply gotten permission from the KOREAN owned and operated gretech this wouldnt be happening. Gretech paid blizzard and negotiated with them to get this deal, if it isnt enforced in some way then gretech spent a lot of money on the rights and gets nothing in return... PS: I really wish you would just stop posting in this thread, your opinions are even more biased than most people, and most of your comments are horrendously dumb that just repeat the same thing over and over and over again.
I seriously think that from all the people who is posting here you are the less indicated to point that somebody has to stop posting in this thread, in your posts you have showed us how poor is your knowledge of the korean proscene in all its aspects, you are very biased too, you jump conclusions, so if you are posting here , everybody should be allowed.
I personally think that this thread doesnt have much more to be discussed (this subject has been in debate in many other threads), we can only sit and wait for the resolution of this conlict in any way, as a fan of BW proscene I just wish OGN and MBC beat Blizz.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
@ TheRabidDeer
PS: I really wish you would just stop posting in this thread, your opinions are even more biased than most people, and most of your comments are horrendously dumb that just repeat the same thing over and over and over again.
Tell me, how does repeating some thing appear to influence how true that thing is?
I think in no way. And I still think that what I'm triying to say is true. Its not biased, it's what I feel. And... you see I don't think that koreans of KeSPA are good and don't think that OGN and MBC are super cool and their bosses are not mean and money-hungry.
But that all doesn't matter. Blizzard are wrong in the regarded case.
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On November 08 2010 21:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2010 20:54 _Quasar_ wrote:
"Anyone" didn't contribute to them so much as Koreans...
for example if someone cracks SC2 or so - they should sue them.
But not the korean pro scene. Their influence on success of these games is FAR too big. Korea is fine and koreans have access to BW, they have to go through the korean owned Gretech corp to get permission to broadcast or give Gretech corp some way to broadcast games with the players. Right now there is a failed korean interaction that has nothing to do with blizzard since blizzard sold the rights to gretech. If OGN had simply gotten permission from the KOREAN owned and operated gretech this wouldnt be happening. Gretech paid blizzard and negotiated with them to get this deal, if it isnt enforced in some way then gretech spent a lot of money on the rights and gets nothing in return... PS: I really wish you would just stop posting in this thread, your opinions are even more biased than most people, and most of your comments are horrendously dumb that just repeat the same thing over and over and over again.
You don't even know the Korean proscene that well, do you?
r o f l
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On November 08 2010 21:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2010 20:54 _Quasar_ wrote:
"Anyone" didn't contribute to them so much as Koreans...
for example if someone cracks SC2 or so - they should sue them.
But not the korean pro scene. Their influence on success of these games is FAR too big. Korea is fine and koreans have access to BW, they have to go through the korean owned Gretech corp to get permission to broadcast or give Gretech corp some way to broadcast games with the players. Right now there is a failed korean interaction that has nothing to do with blizzard since blizzard sold the rights to gretech. If OGN had simply gotten permission from the KOREAN owned and operated gretech this wouldnt be happening. Gretech paid blizzard and negotiated with them to get this deal, if it isnt enforced in some way then gretech spent a lot of money on the rights and gets nothing in return... PS: I really wish you would just stop posting in this thread, your opinions are even more biased than most people, and most of your comments are horrendously dumb that just repeat the same thing over and over and over again.
Dude, im a probe and i seem to know more about the proscene than you, simply from reading around a little.. -.- if you wish to have discussions on this topic, at least make an effort to enlighten urself..
Also your comments (imho) are among the most biased around here.. I cant say much of anything earlier since i am very much biased myself, but now that you mentioned it, those bolded words can be thrown right at you.
Im regretting investing money into SC2 to try it out now ... T_T its a lot of money considering im a student studying away from home.. And i no longer feel the motivation to turn on SC2 and compete on Ladder anymore (after some tens of games  ).. Im playing some NintendoDS games on an Emulator right now.
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Russian Federation63 Posts
I think what we see here is just a standart case of Internet community having a knee-jerk reaction at anything involving the word "sue".
I don't recall a single discussion on any topic, regarding anyone suing anyone, where Internet community supported the one taking legal action. People seem to think that it should always be songs and flowers and everyone getting along like Care Bears, and anyone who sues is by definition a bad guy out for his own greed.
So yeah, i think it's mostly about Internet people thinking that finances and law are the instruments of evil and not - heaven forbid - the things that shape the foundation of modern society.
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So outside of empty sophisticated-sounding words, maybe you would like to bring up a point, or a logical argument? You are jumping into a discussion after all.
Singing "internet nerds are ignorant idiots" (im aware of my slightly exaggerated paraphrasing) and nothing else as your first post in a discussion is even less constructive than haters and blind fanboys. At least those guys try to say something.
In an attempt for this not to sound like a 100% diss post:
Its actually less blind hate/ignorance than you think. Many of us have attempted to assume and analyze possible scenarios, e.g. If Blizz wins, A and B and C will happen, and i do/dont like it, etc. You may agree or you may not, but your opinion will be more highly regarded if you back it with reason, not disses and smarter-than-thou talks.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
On November 09 2010 03:46 Anfi wrote:
I think what we see here is just a standart case of Internet community having a knee-jerk reaction at anything involving the word "sue".
I don't recall a single discussion on any topic, regarding anyone suing anyone, where Internet community supported the one taking legal action. People seem to think that it should always be songs and flowers and everyone getting along like Care Bears, and anyone who sues is by definition a bad guy out for his own greed.
So yeah, i think it's mostly about Internet people thinking that finances and law are the instruments of evil and not - heaven forbid - the things that shape the foundation of modern society.
lol no, i don't think that "foundations of nowadays' society" are good. -___-
But look - Valve had some problems with CS in Korea, and I don't think they're evil. Because they f$%king made it BEFORE koreans made e-sports out of it and brought them great profit. And instead they had its popularity made by means of ordinary gaming culture, not televised one. CS made its way to the top e-sports (and probably the only SC's rival for the #1 place among e-sports) on its own.
Therefore, basically, I think Valve isn't evil. Yet. :D
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On November 09 2010 01:59 _Quasar_ wrote:@ TheRabidDeer Show nested quote +PS: I really wish you would just stop posting in this thread, your opinions are even more biased than most people, and most of your comments are horrendously dumb that just repeat the same thing over and over and over again. Tell me, how does repeating some thing appear to influence how true that thing is? I think in no way. And I still think that what I'm triying to say is true. Its not biased, it's what I feel. And... you see I don't think that koreans of KeSPA are good and don't think that OGN and MBC are super cool and their bosses are not mean and money-hungry. But that all doesn't matter. Blizzard are wrong in the regarded case.
Lmao I am still on the fence in this argument becuase I am not a lawyer , and still have to do some researching into Korean and international law , before I am decided , On another note , dude this post is so fail -funny , You say in the very same sentence " And I still think that what I'm trying to say is true. Its not biased, it's what I feel. "
Um.......UM......UM....maybe I am misinterpreting the post , based on a lack of reading the priori-posts
well I am no linguist , but becuase "feelings " may qualify as a form of bias ( although maybe if you had worded it " I feel this way based on this culmination of said facts , it could work .
However , without tying your emotions to a factual fulcrum , the statement seems borderline oxymoronic.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
No it's not feeling in form of bias, it's just a form of intuition. But look, my intuition was already accompanied by logic.
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On November 07 2010 00:59 AyJay wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2010 00:38 palexhur wrote:On November 06 2010 13:34 TheRabidDeer wrote:On November 06 2010 09:41 StarStruck wrote:On November 05 2010 16:07 TheRabidDeer wrote:
According to the numbers available, SC2 has already reached and/or surpassed BW popularity. I wont say its a better game, because that is opinion... but in terms of viewership, it is already quite popular. How about we leave such comments for let's say another ten years? There is no point comparing the two based on sales alone. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way. That comment wasnt based on sales, it was based on the number of views for GSL vs the finals between jaedong/flash. Looking purely at sales, then BW is way ahead of SC2 (but this is also because BW has obviously been out for 12 years). I dont even know how you can infer that conclusion about SC2 reached or surpassed BW popularity when the main way of broadcasting of OGN and MBC are different than GOM, please go and see the TV ratings of that event and then you can conclude something, sorry but It is comparing apples with oranges, if the final of the GSL has less viewers than Boxer vs Nestea or Boxer vs Nada, then you can conclude that it is not even about SC2 but a phenomenom named Boxer. Lets wait and see. GSL1 finals vod has 1.9 Million views. Koreans are interested in Sc2
I don't really have anything to add but i don't really think we should be useing vod hits as an accurate measurement. After all Justin Beiber has like 400 MILLION hits on one of his MV's.
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On November 09 2010 07:53 MrProphylactic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 01:59 _Quasar_ wrote:@ TheRabidDeer PS: I really wish you would just stop posting in this thread, your opinions are even more biased than most people, and most of your comments are horrendously dumb that just repeat the same thing over and over and over again. Tell me, how does repeating some thing appear to influence how true that thing is? I think in no way. And I still think that what I'm triying to say is true. Its not biased, it's what I feel. And... you see I don't think that koreans of KeSPA are good and don't think that OGN and MBC are super cool and their bosses are not mean and money-hungry. But that all doesn't matter. Blizzard are wrong in the regarded case. Lmao I am still on the fence in this argument becuase I am not a lawyer , and still have to do some researching into Korean and international law , before I am decided , On another note , dude this post is so fail -funny , You say in the very same sentence " And I still think that what I'm trying to say is true. Its not biased, it's what I feel. " Um.......UM......UM....maybe I am misinterpreting the post , based on a lack of reading the priori-posts well I am no linguist , but becuase "feelings " may qualify as a form of bias ( although maybe if you had worded it " I feel this way based on this culmination of said facts , it could work . However , without tying your emotions to a factual fulcrum , the statement seems borderline oxymoronic.
Maybe you , should grow a pair of braincells before you type nonsense like this? You do know we are creatures of feelings, and that feelings are used in every decision in right or wrong? If not, we would just be computers.
It's funny how guys like you come to a discussion board with fancy words, you know, you should read history about people like that, its commical.
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wow this thread is worse then all of the previous blizz vs kespa threads. O_o
Are there any updates on the matter?
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On November 10 2010 04:01 Kazeyonoma wrote:
wow this thread is worse then all of the previous blizz vs kespa threads. O_o
Are there any updates on the matter?
Yes, nine people died due to the burns they suffered from this flame war.
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I wonder how much does Blizzard want for broadcasting compared to the overall profits of those operations.
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On November 09 2010 23:31 crappen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 07:53 MrProphylactic wrote:On November 09 2010 01:59 _Quasar_ wrote:@ TheRabidDeer PS: I really wish you would just stop posting in this thread, your opinions are even more biased than most people, and most of your comments are horrendously dumb that just repeat the same thing over and over and over again. Tell me, how does repeating some thing appear to influence how true that thing is? I think in no way. And I still think that what I'm triying to say is true. Its not biased, it's what I feel. And... you see I don't think that koreans of KeSPA are good and don't think that OGN and MBC are super cool and their bosses are not mean and money-hungry. But that all doesn't matter. Blizzard are wrong in the regarded case. Lmao I am still on the fence in this argument becuase I am not a lawyer , and still have to do some researching into Korean and international law , before I am decided , On another note , dude this post is so fail -funny , You say in the very same sentence " And I still think that what I'm trying to say is true. Its not biased, it's what I feel. " Um.......UM......UM....maybe I am misinterpreting the post , based on a lack of reading the priori-posts well I am no linguist , but becuase "feelings " may qualify as a form of bias ( although maybe if you had worded it " I feel this way based on this culmination of said facts , it could work . However , without tying your emotions to a factual fulcrum , the statement seems borderline oxymoronic. Maybe you , should grow a pair of braincells before you type nonsense like this? You do know we are creatures of feelings, and that feelings are used in every decision in right or wrong? If not, we would just be computers. It's funny how guys like you come to a discussion board with fancy words, you know, you should read history about people like that, its commical.
lmao , now i need only to grow a pair of brain cells and stop using " fancy words " like objectivity ( that is too funny, dont even know what to say to that , if objectivity is a fancy word to you , I hope you do a good job decorating the cave you were raised in ) ), and he wants me to grow some , not acquire knew ones through the form of cell reproduction those of us with currently educated braincells like to call cell mitosis , but " the brilliant lay-term you came up with is vastly superior . " grow a pair of braincells " , I really like the sub-phallic connotation as well . Not too mention growing a "pair of "new brain cells is quite impossible for someone my age unless you are talking about growing some nerve endings or hippo-campus cells , I can only regenerate the ones from the genetic template i already have ( even that is unlikely ) . Another seeming impossibility is an objective post on this forum .,
As far as objectivity is concerned Here is simple wiki post , providing anything more formalized would be lost on you I assume .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivity_(philosophy)
here is one basic scientific discussion of the issues of objectivity and science .
Now I suppose you will post some representation a " Subjectivenist " " Metaphysical idealism or Radical skepticism.the denial of material reality (idealism); and odd views in epistemology, (assuming of course you understand your own arguments , but allow me to argue for you , as trhe more I read your post , I am not sure you even know what you mean )
e.g., the claim that all statements are equally warranted. In other words, if you're careless about how you handle the concepts of subjectivity and objectivity, you can end up saying there's no such thing as morality, reality, or truth! . Arguments like that are pretty lame imo as a defense of a formal debate ,as they commit the fallacy of appeal to ignorance. You " appeal to ignorance " when your only premise in support of a claim is that you or your opponent can't show the claim is false, i.e., you are ignorant of any evidence that would disprove it ,
So yeah if you want to come in here , saying " well buddy ,dont you know reality doesn't exist its all a dream , or " therefore there is no way for you to ever objective " at that point assuming you beliefs disagree with mine ,
So if '0bjectivity is to be an ideal,and this is your stance , your reply is still quite obviously non-topical ( two any of us with at least " two brain-cells that is ) as my original post was pointing out the humor based on claiming objectivity while simultaneously supporting this " objectivity " with ones " feelings " I wasn't trying to insult , just thought it ironic .
Your post really wasn't wasn't worth replying to , but it is so comical I couldn't resist
However imo an actual topical response is probably too much to hope for here
To answer your poorly written , rhetoric oriented , and hilariously misguided pseudo-intellectual question ; Yes I know humans have feelings , and do you know the very nature of "us" having feelings , while managing to both compensate , be made aware of , and successfully remove from the scientific method , this given human hopes to use , ( somewhere between hypothesis and finished argument ) , has always been the goal for any half-aware individual : with at least " a pair of "NEW " braincells .
The FACT of the matter is , objective truth is something that remains true whether humans are here or not ; ones feelings have little place as a support to an objectively drawn conclusion , this is what I found funny about the first post replied to . If you cannot or are incapable of understanding this train of thought , then your parents have my sympathy , but please dont follow it up with an even worse logic-fail
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
On November 08 2010 17:17 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2010 01:22 BLinD-RawR wrote:On November 08 2010 01:17 _Quasar_ wrote:
Yes. But Jaedong spoke, as one of the popular and enough mature progamers. Did they hear him? I suppose no. -___-
Maybe next, Bisu should? x_x He seems to be an intelligent person with ability to feel and think. And he already said about the strange atmosphere in progaming. Maybe him?
And again, even if Acti-Blizz don't just kill SC... This is nonetheless unfair. I explained why Koreans already have paid Blizz for the use of this game to the fullest. They didn't do it themselves, all these efforts to establish e-sports - although they could.
And you say someone's getting rich, yes? If all that simple why didn't BLIZZARD go, organize esports and get rich? Why not them???
So, I think they just took it for granted, and now say "we don't owe you anything". That's unfair! Understand what I mean? And everyone here - do you understand? T_T Jaedong spoke...under the influence of KeSPA...He only said what they wanted him to say,but that wouldn't make much of a difference anyways. You got no proof that he was influenced under of kespa or what so ever I have seen you posting around and all of them lead to you defacing kespa ,ogn and mbc . Purposely I guess you like to jump in the sc2 band wagon than go ahead and enjoy your ultimate game . This thread has become a freaking pile of hate and some of you may say its arguing and may I ask you one question does it change anything ? People dont change easily no matter how hard you argue here some people (trolls) will post offensive stuff to put off broodwar and sc2 . But what ever feel free to continue your crusade .
You clearly haven't been reading my posts if you are saying that.
it was an event held my KeSPA and the ministry of Sports,Culture and Tourism.
there is nothing there to deface KeSPA for,I'm saying that they are bad and a better group should take care of progamers and their sponsors,even after all they have done.OGN and MBC are the biggest victims(in terms of business) in this shit between KeSPA and Blizzard.
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On November 09 2010 03:46 Anfi wrote:
I think what we see here is just a standart case of Internet community having a knee-jerk reaction at anything involving the word "sue".
I don't recall a single discussion on any topic, regarding anyone suing anyone, where Internet community supported the one taking legal action. People seem to think that it should always be songs and flowers and everyone getting along like Care Bears, and anyone who sues is by definition a bad guy out for his own greed.
So yeah, i think it's mostly about Internet people thinking that finances and law are the instruments of evil and not - heaven forbid - the things that shape the foundation of modern society.
I agree a little of that going on , and a huge lack of objectivity going on , ( uh oh shouldn't have used that word the Metaphysical idealists will come out of the word-work ) most people here of course are having trouble seeing past there own wants . I.E they want BW to survive , of course this is a site based solely on SC related things , this is to be expected somewhat .
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
Do you think that "BroodWar wouldn't last very long without help of Korean gaming community, therefore SC2 wouldn't be so expected and so popular, and wouldn't have at least half of it sales, and WC3 and its successor WoW would also lose in popularity, if at all appeared" is a not objective statement?
Don't fool us please with your rhetoric. And Blizzard, please, don't try to do that too. This is ridiculous.
Efforts of maintaining SC's success and therefore maintaining its competitive status are their, not Blizzard's, and these should be respected. If no, then they're seriously risking to never get such support from anyone else, and this is yet not regarding the mere fact that this is a treason and it's simply dishonest.
For example, knowing that they do shit EULA which states that they own the things that they didn't make themselves, or probably that they did a EULA that secretly, hidden among 314632487689172364897 words, gives a statement of this (supposed for no one to know), they would avoid doing anything to their games. Why? If they're simply going to get exploited, like Koreans got exploited and then told that they were not helping ActiBlizz with their love of the game, but "stealing" something from them. Or even if not stated that they steal - still, to get this game away from them after so much their efforts put into it, is simply to stab in the back.
And feelings, you know, you need them to imagine what backstabbing feels like, imagining what if it was done to you - and thinking of whether you want it to be done or not.
-____-
And please don't troll this community with your arrogant statements like "most of people here don't see past their own wants". You see, we here don't just say "I want BroodWar and don't want to think of anything else". Here, you will see the things based on the common human morale, not on "wants" of some particular people. Maybe the reason I'm posting in this is because personally I want this morale to be respected and at least in some way followed =\
Yes you can say that this morale is shit and this is your right to say so. At the end, we all decide some basic things ourselves. But think also of the fact how do you going to relate with people around you when your basis is not normal morale but THIS. Look how this obeying only to the written law influences you (try to imagine), and I promise you you won't see anything good.
I mean also, that if you state that someone didn't make a contribution to your success (when he actually did), you are almost 100% risk of not getting any contribution is some close future. And that's the price of being wrong.
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Russian Federation63 Posts
On November 09 2010 04:04 ffreakk wrote:
So outside of empty sophisticated-sounding words, maybe you would like to bring up a point, or a logical argument? You are jumping into a discussion after all.
Singing "internet nerds are ignorant idiots" (im aware of my slightly exaggerated paraphrasing) and nothing else as your first post in a discussion is even less constructive than haters and blind fanboys. At least those guys try to say something.
In an attempt for this not to sound like a 100% diss post:
Its actually less blind hate/ignorance than you think. Many of us have attempted to assume and analyze possible scenarios, e.g. If Blizz wins, A and B and C will happen, and i do/dont like it, etc. You may agree or you may not, but your opinion will be more highly regarded if you back it with reason, not disses and smarter-than-thou talks.
)) okay, that's fair enough. Sorry for coming off as an arrogant dinkhead.
My logic is as follows.
N1 - most people here spent a lot of quality time, following korean eSports, provided by the organisations being sued.
It follows that any organisation that attacks these organisations is guaranteed bad treatment on these forums. Blizzard is not exempt.
N2 - noone here REALLY knows what Blizzard's plans for SC proscene development are.
Most people just assume they are in it for the money. Kill BW -> make more ppl pay for SC2 -> profit. Well, truth of the matter is that this is just the easiest explanation available. Even the smartest and most well-educated of us tend to go for easiest explanations. Occam's razor and all.
Put N1 and N2 together, and you get a strong and predictable reaction of the community to Blizzard's legal action. The reaction will be obviously negative and will most likely prevent any notion of Blizzard trying to achieve a good thing to creep into dicussion. Mind you, this is regardless of what Blizzard is really trying to achieve.
My opinion of how the whole thing is going to proceed is as follows.
The transition from SC:BW to SC2 will be accelerated. SC:BW will gravitate towards minor loyal communities, much like there are still people around who play WC2 and Total Annihilation. Most progamers will leave for SC2, simply because of SC:BW's "political instability".
Should Blizzard lose the lawsuit, things in Korea will stay mostly the same as they are now. However, Blizzard's might redirect some resources away from SC2 expansions and more towards Diablo, Warcraft and their new unnamed franchise. Obviously a bad thing for SC proscene.
Should Blizzard win the lawsuit, OGN will face legal consequences. I don't think it'll die, Blizzard does not want it to. But even if it does, it won't be long before a new broadcasting company purchases Blizzard's broadcasting license and fills the void. In short, it'll all be good again fairly soon, with the added bonus of Blizzard getting more moneys off SC franchise, thus spending more of it's efforts towards expanding it and making it better.
Worst case scenario is lawsuit becoming a multiyear protracted thing, that will wear on the nerves of both Starcraft fans and all the organisations involved. This scenario is the one with the most uncertainty and the highest promise of devastating consequences for SC proscene.
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EPT
