On February 09 2009 10:02 Atrioc wrote: You guys...
there was a point in KESPA history when sAviOr was four-hundred points higher than the #2 (NaDa) and one-fucking-thousand pointshigher than the #3. That is so far above his closest competitors that there isnt a shadow of a doubt in his ability to beat anyone on earth.
You cannot say the same about Bisu at this point.
This was when the rest of the players were quite bad though keep in mind. The amount of great players and the level of the greatest players has increased so much since then.
People who were past their prime for the most part along with a lot of poor players is what I should have said, and look what happened when Savior played firebathero... I think you would know.
Now look at what happens when most of these players play people in these days? In games after 2008:
Iloveoov 4-4 3 wins coming from players on ace so essentially 1-4
Hwasin is admittedly still playing well.
Nada I was not referring to as he was second on Kespa
midas 25-29 However he is 2-8 in his last 10
yarnc is still playing quite well
Casy 8-12 which is quite impressive considering he plays for Ace but 3-7 in his last 10
Kingdom hasn't played a single game in 2008 but he's coaching SKT protosses and one of them is a candidate for the next bonjwa so....
Nal_ra is 4-5 in 2008 which is not terrible but 3 of his wins are over Daezang Oversky and Punsoo.
Firebathero Sea light and GGplay and anytime I won't talk about because honestly they're not doing bad at all, I never once said all these people were noobs simply that the majority of players in these times were not exactly the greatest and that there are so many more great players in these days. Look at the top 30 Kespa it's ridiculous but as I said my point was not that they are all TERRIBLE just that the competition was not as fierce as it is these days.
hwasin, midas, casy, yarnc, sea, light were all in their prime
nal_ra, reach, anytime, iloveoov were still very strong
nada won the OSL (and masters) shortly after savior
absolutely ridiculous. You're using 2008 stats (and badly badly warping them lol) to prove that these guys were worthless in 2006/7?
wow
No I'm not talking about 2006/7 at all I'm saying that they're not doing as well with today's competition.
MY POST HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 2006 OR 2007 I WAS TRYING TO SAY THAT IN 2008/2009 THE COMPETITION IS MORE STRONG THAN IT USED TO BE AND THEREFOR THESE PLAYERS AREN'T ALL ABLE TO KEEP UP.
On February 09 2009 10:02 Atrioc wrote: You guys...
there was a point in KESPA history when sAviOr was four-hundred points higher than the #2 (NaDa) and one-fucking-thousand pointshigher than the #3. That is so far above his closest competitors that there isnt a shadow of a doubt in his ability to beat anyone on earth.
You cannot say the same about Bisu at this point.
This was when the rest of the players were quite bad though keep in mind. The amount of great players and the level of the greatest players has increased so much since then.
People who were past their prime for the most part along with a lot of poor players is what I should have said, and look what happened when Savior played firebathero... I think you would know.
Now look at what happens when most of these players play people in these days? In games after 2008:
Iloveoov 4-4 3 wins coming from players on ace so essentially 1-4
Hwasin is admittedly still playing well.
Nada I was not referring to as he was second on Kespa
midas 25-29 However he is 2-8 in his last 10
yarnc is still playing quite well
Casy 8-12 which is quite impressive considering he plays for Ace but 3-7 in his last 10
Kingdom hasn't played a single game in 2008 but he's coaching SKT protosses and one of them is a candidate for the next bonjwa so....
Nal_ra is 4-5 in 2008 which is not terrible but 3 of his wins are over Daezang Oversky and Punsoo.
Firebathero Sea light and GGplay and anytime I won't talk about because honestly they're not doing bad at all, I never once said all these people were noobs simply that the majority of players in these times were not exactly the greatest and that there are so many more great players in these days. Look at the top 30 Kespa it's ridiculous but as I said my point was not that they are all TERRIBLE just that the competition was not as fierce as it is these days.
hwasin, midas, casy, yarnc, sea, light were all in their prime
nal_ra, reach, anytime, iloveoov were still very strong
nada won the OSL (and masters) shortly after savior
absolutely ridiculous. You're using 2008 stats (and badly badly warping them lol) to prove that these guys were worthless in 2006/7?
wow
No I'm not talking about 2006/7 at all I'm saying that they're not doing as well with today's competition.
MY POST HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 2006 OR 2007 I WAS TRYING TO SAY THAT IN 2008/2009 THE COMPETITION IS MORE STRONG THAN IT USED TO BE AND THEREFOR THESE PLAYERS AREN'T ALL ABLE TO KEEP UP.
Still, 2008 stats don't say much about their 2006 skill since many of the players you listed had started to slack off and gone downhill by then. Only a few players can stay close to their top level for more than a couple of years, and you bring up stats when they are half retired?
On February 09 2009 10:02 Atrioc wrote: You guys...
there was a point in KESPA history when sAviOr was four-hundred points higher than the #2 (NaDa) and one-fucking-thousand pointshigher than the #3. That is so far above his closest competitors that there isnt a shadow of a doubt in his ability to beat anyone on earth.
You cannot say the same about Bisu at this point.
This was when the rest of the players were quite bad though keep in mind. The amount of great players and the level of the greatest players has increased so much since then.
People who were past their prime for the most part along with a lot of poor players is what I should have said, and look what happened when Savior played firebathero... I think you would know.
Now look at what happens when most of these players play people in these days? In games after 2008:
Iloveoov 4-4 3 wins coming from players on ace so essentially 1-4
Hwasin is admittedly still playing well.
Nada I was not referring to as he was second on Kespa
midas 25-29 However he is 2-8 in his last 10
yarnc is still playing quite well
Casy 8-12 which is quite impressive considering he plays for Ace but 3-7 in his last 10
Kingdom hasn't played a single game in 2008 but he's coaching SKT protosses and one of them is a candidate for the next bonjwa so....
Nal_ra is 4-5 in 2008 which is not terrible but 3 of his wins are over Daezang Oversky and Punsoo.
Firebathero Sea light and GGplay and anytime I won't talk about because honestly they're not doing bad at all, I never once said all these people were noobs simply that the majority of players in these times were not exactly the greatest and that there are so many more great players in these days. Look at the top 30 Kespa it's ridiculous but as I said my point was not that they are all TERRIBLE just that the competition was not as fierce as it is these days.
hwasin, midas, casy, yarnc, sea, light were all in their prime
nal_ra, reach, anytime, iloveoov were still very strong
nada won the OSL (and masters) shortly after savior
absolutely ridiculous. You're using 2008 stats (and badly badly warping them lol) to prove that these guys were worthless in 2006/7?
wow
No I'm not talking about 2006/7 at all I'm saying that they're not doing as well with today's competition.
MY POST HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 2006 OR 2007 I WAS TRYING TO SAY THAT IN 2008/2009 THE COMPETITION IS MORE STRONG THAN IT USED TO BE AND THEREFOR THESE PLAYERS AREN'T ALL ABLE TO KEEP UP.
First, don't use all caps.
Second, obviously Nal_ra and Casy and Midas suck recently, they are old, over the hill, almost-retired progamers who are past their prime. Using recent statistics for these guys as proof of it being "easier" for Savior back then is completely misguided.
That's like me citing 2008 Savior stats (the horrible ones) and saying wow Bisu had no competition when he played Savior in 2007, that year was so weak if someone as bad as Savior (using his 2008 stats as proof) could win so many MSLs. Or oh hey fOrGG is 3-5 in 2009, Jaedong must've really sucked in 2008 to lose an MSL to him. 2008 is just so much easier than 2009, look at fOrGG!
Do you see why using this line of logic is stupid?
It's also pretty obvious that the periods bonjwas dominate are getting shorter and shorter due to more competition and more games played and it would be nice if people don't post "reasons" why Bisu is not a bonjwa, which applied to ipxzerg even more.
On February 09 2009 10:02 Atrioc wrote: You guys...
there was a point in KESPA history when sAviOr was four-hundred points higher than the #2 (NaDa) and one-fucking-thousand pointshigher than the #3. That is so far above his closest competitors that there isnt a shadow of a doubt in his ability to beat anyone on earth.
You cannot say the same about Bisu at this point.
This was when the rest of the players were quite bad though keep in mind. The amount of great players and the level of the greatest players has increased so much since then.
People who were past their prime for the most part along with a lot of poor players is what I should have said, and look what happened when Savior played firebathero... I think you would know.
Now look at what happens when most of these players play people in these days? In games after 2008:
Iloveoov 4-4 3 wins coming from players on ace so essentially 1-4
Hwasin is admittedly still playing well.
Nada I was not referring to as he was second on Kespa
midas 25-29 However he is 2-8 in his last 10
yarnc is still playing quite well
Casy 8-12 which is quite impressive considering he plays for Ace but 3-7 in his last 10
Kingdom hasn't played a single game in 2008 but he's coaching SKT protosses and one of them is a candidate for the next bonjwa so....
Nal_ra is 4-5 in 2008 which is not terrible but 3 of his wins are over Daezang Oversky and Punsoo.
Firebathero Sea light and GGplay and anytime I won't talk about because honestly they're not doing bad at all, I never once said all these people were noobs simply that the majority of players in these times were not exactly the greatest and that there are so many more great players in these days. Look at the top 30 Kespa it's ridiculous but as I said my point was not that they are all TERRIBLE just that the competition was not as fierce as it is these days.
hwasin, midas, casy, yarnc, sea, light were all in their prime
nal_ra, reach, anytime, iloveoov were still very strong
nada won the OSL (and masters) shortly after savior
absolutely ridiculous. You're using 2008 stats (and badly badly warping them lol) to prove that these guys were worthless in 2006/7?
wow
No I'm not talking about 2006/7 at all I'm saying that they're not doing as well with today's competition.
MY POST HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 2006 OR 2007 I WAS TRYING TO SAY THAT IN 2008/2009 THE COMPETITION IS MORE STRONG THAN IT USED TO BE AND THEREFOR THESE PLAYERS AREN'T ALL ABLE TO KEEP UP.
First, don't use all caps.
Second, obviously Nal_ra and Casy and Midas suck recently, they are old, over the hill, almost-retired progamers who are past their prime. Using recent statistics for these guys as proof of it being "easier" for Savior back then is completely misguided.
That's like me citing 2008 Savior stats (the horrible ones) and saying wow Bisu had no competition when he played Savior in 2007, that year was so weak if someone as bad as Savior (using his 2008 stats as proof) could win so many MSLs. Or oh hey fOrGG is 3-5 in 2009, Jaedong must've really sucked in 2008 to lose an MSL to him. 2008 is just so much easier than 2009, look at fOrGG!
Do you see why using this line of logic is stupid?
Comparing the mere KESPA points is invalid, because the calculation and amount of games being played has changed vastly.
As for whether Bisu (or anyone for that matter) can be considered a bonjwa: you have to look far beyond a list of titles. I,E. Savior wasnt bonjwa because he won 3 MSLs, but because of the sheer dominance he displayed in his gameplay and mentality. I havent yet seen this from Bisu, not in a similar fashion and a comparable amount of time anyway.
imo, the age of bonjwas is dead. The competition is too fierce. Bisu is undoubtedly #1 right now in this age of fierce comp, which really says something. Like he said, he doesn't want to be a Bonjwa who rises up, dominates, and fades into oblivion. He just wants to be the most consistent winner. He just wants to be forever best.
I think Bisu is a favourite over any other progamer right now but not in the same way that sAviOr was. Bisu is really fucking good. sAviOr was the Matler.
Zelduck that is kind of what I'm trying to say, the competition is just too strong these days for there to be a bonjwa I suppose I am just really bad at getting my point across :S.
Ya.. i'm not sure about all this bonjwa talk.. but seriously. Definate props go to Bisu[Shield]
the 1st Protoss player to gain such major acheivements. 1st Protoss to win 3 MSL titles ( even though he's won other tournaments to date ) 1st Protoss to surpass ELO rating of 2300
Probably the single-most player responsible for reinventing Protoss vs. Zerg matchups as well as bringing about the "golden age of Protoss" and paving the way for the Six-Dragons, leading the way in terms of strategy, form and inspiration for tons of Protoss users.
the mans a pimp of the game. All Hail Bisu[Shield], God of Protoss!
EPT
Bisu[Shield]
