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Could not think of a better title srry.
Anyway, Iv read a few threads here and there, and they all say the same thing:
Protoss is the easiest race
Terran is harder
Zerg is the hardest
This may be a true a little bit, but not all the time. My Terran friend thinks that Protoss are units are so.... (you guys can fill in the dots).
Yes Protoss units are strongers technically but Terrans use up a lot of resources for some almost - clunky (I SAID ALMOST DONT EVEN FLAME THIS A BIT) but strong (see they are strong  ) units.
Zerg mass up like crazy.
So yeah my question, why do people think Protoss is the easiest race generally?
I dont agree with that because for me the easiest would be Terran because everything happens so fast, yet the units are not weak. Also because you do not need to build in a limited area (like Warp Fields for Protoss and the creep for the zerg).
Btw im a Protoss player. I just think they are sooo awesome lore wise xD. ZERATUL FTW!
lol anyway, why do people think Protoss is the easiest race?
Poll: Which race is the easiest to play?
(Vote): Terran
(Vote): Zerg
(Vote): Protoss
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I think we've had a lot of threads like this before.
anyways, protoss is usually considered the easiest race because it requires the least amount of micro, and high apm is not as necessary as it is w/ terran/zerg.
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Mechanics. Protoss can easily hotkey their entire army in any MU, while having spare hotkeys for nexus(es?). Also the fact that a single probe can make an entire base in no time is another factor. Terran and Zerg both have to control units without control groups, and they generally have to micro rather carefully (Terran Siege and Stim Pack, Zerg Mutalisk stack and Lurker Burrow. Protoss has...Dragoon hold position and zealot a-move.)
That's basically why people seem to think that. I probably missed something, but that's the gist of what I've gathered from other posters.
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On January 04 2009 06:58 Dalroti wrote:
Protoss is the easiest race
Terran is harder
Zerg is the hardest
This isn't what I've read. I've always read that Protoss is easiest, Terran is hardest.
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Protoss also have very similar army composition for all of their MUs and generally require less multitasking during battle. However, storms are hard to use so people like Jangbi takes protoss to another level. But Zergs and Terrans usually have more to do in battle when it gets to the late-game anyways.
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Probably at higher levels all three races are equally challenging, however, at lower levels protoss is much easier to learn than the other two. I think it's mostly because the APM required is so much lower- protoss units build slower, and you don't have to build nearly as many of them. Being able to spam pylons and cannons also helps.
The difference really becomes obvious when you look at the races of the top foreign players. Almost every foreigner who ever played starcraft really competitively, plays protoss.
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The poll says the answer i think lol
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The reason why i always thought of Protoss as the easiest race is because their units require pretty much zero babysitting, you can be in the middle of an attack and safely F2 back to your base and return to macroing for a while.
If Terran or Zerg are careless they can lose entire groups to storm/lurkers/whatever in a matter of seconds.
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I remember a time when everyone said that PvZ was the hardest MU in the game and Protoss was the weakest race.. good old days
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somehow IF eSTRO (or other teams) picks up another player after Nony I bet its not going to be Zerg (unless we are talking about SKT1 team where Dinot might be a boost). Most likely protoss and then terran option.
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is awesome32274 Posts
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On January 04 2009 07:16 grobo wrote:
If Terran or Zerg are careless they can lose entire groups to storm/lurkers/whatever in a matter of seconds.
Are you saying that protoss are immune to storm/lurkers?
Protoss just does not have as heavy micro oriented units in battle apart from storm, so it takes less apm to micro each battle. The "easiness" of a race is generally based on how much APM is takes to play it efficently so everyone bashes protoss for this reason. Being a Protoss player myself, I must say that protoss is indeed the easiest race to play.
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For protoss you have to be able to do many actions in about a 5 second span for you army. Examples are breaking a push or breaking a lurker contain. Besides that, what Grobo said is pretty accurate. I don't agree that they take absolutely zero babysitting though--when the protoss is trying to delay a terran's pushing by forcing him to siege it takes some micro by the protoss. Definitely not as much micro as the terran though.
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NOOOOOOOOOOOO FUCK I WAS GONNA VOTE PROTOSS BUT I CLICKED TERRAN FUK FUKFUCK
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Protoss has the largest room for error.
The units are relatively strong and mobile so you arent punished as bad for being out of position or caught off guard because you can run away. Toss can harass OR play passively pretty easily. The micro is very simple.
Zerg is fragile and theres always the drone management.
Terran is hard to use effectively, the multi task and annoying pathing with slowish units can cause some stupid errors, not to mention if caught out of position the terran army is REALLY shitty.
Toss also has really good build orders nowadays. You can get big leads that are very difficult to overcome for lower tiered terran and zergs.
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I think it all varies at different levels of play.
At D level Terran is the hardest to play, protoss is the easiest, zerg is just in the middle. At this level you can get away with having sub-par micro and macro as a Protoss because the units are stronger and easier to control, but something you can't as a zerg or terran because zerg units are so squishy and Terran units take more mechanics to control.
At higher levels, I think Terran is almost the easiest to play. Having two equally skilled opponents (say at around an A level of play) is going to be a lot harder for the Ptoross (in a TvP) because this terran is going to possess equally good micro/macro and know the mechanics of pushing and such. A Protoss is going to have to know how to perfectly break pushes and have a profound of understanding of timing and such. IMO, when you know how to use it, the siege tank is the most powerful unit in the game.
I think once you reach a gosu level of play, all the races sort of balance out because they're being used so efficiently.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
well no terrans acuatlly pretty hard cuz if you dont micro or manage your units well they'll get owned so ez and they move slow as hell and then mnm micro vs zerg is like insane too and like wtf all ur marines are so fragile 2 lurkers can own 24 of them like wtffffffff
protoss is just easier at loewr levels cuz their units are strong
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At low levels protoss is definitely the easiest. For example in PvT there are like 100 annoying things that the protoss can do to a terran and win easily.. Proxy gates, gas steal, dt drop, reaver drop, putting a pylon at ur wall, manner pylon, putting a pylon beside ur factory and the list goes on.. Terran can make just one mistake, for example putting up a turret one second late and GG.
Yea just saying from experience HEHE
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1. High hp, high cost units, easier to use all your money and get a large army
2. High HP means you don't have to worry about a storm killing 90% of your army in 1/2 a second or 2 lurker spines taking out 500 marines
3. Ability of a probe to lay down a pylon and 10 cannons at an expansion along with a nexus, all at once, giving good defense without using any units. Ability of one single probe to lay down all buildings and go back to mining.
4. At low levels, 1a2a3a4a suffices, which is where the joke comes from. 1a2a3a4a a MM army into 4 lurkers and you're dead. 1a2a3a4a a zealot goon HT army into 4 lurkers and you won't lose a single unit.
5. Fairly mobile units, of course less mobile than zerg but certainly more mobile than Terran. Terran requires you pay attention to your units the entire time you're moving them around and setting them up, as well as often building additional structures i.e. bunkers and turrrets.
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On January 04 2009 07:29 FREEloss_ca wrote:
I think it all varies at different levels of play.
At D level Terran is the hardest to play, protoss is the easiest, zerg is just in the middle. At this level you can get away with having sub-par micro and macro as a Protoss because the units are stronger and easier to control, but something you can't as a zerg or terran because zerg units are so squishy and Terran units take more mechanics to control.
At higher levels, I think Terran is almost the easiest to play. Having two equally skilled opponents (say at around an A level of play) is going to be a lot harder for the Ptoross (in a TvP) because this terran is going to possess equally good micro/macro and know the mechanics of pushing and such. A Protoss is going to have to know how to perfectly break pushes and have a profound of understanding of timing and such. IMO, when you know how to use it, the siege tank is the most powerful unit in the game.
I think once you reach a gosu level of play, all the races sort of balance out because they're being used so efficiently.
Omfg, I know what you mean by using terran a D level, it is fucking hard! I play zerg now and it's a bit easier but still pretty hard compared to when I used to play protoss.
edit: Now that im playing zerg, I really REALLY have to make sure the protoss does not take hidden expansions. Hydras do great against cannons but they take time to kill them, not to mention the fucking protoss army which could come back and rape my army.
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p is quite hard 2v2 though, right? i've gotten much higher on for fun 2v2s using z/t than with p.
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On January 04 2009 07:21 naonao wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 07:16 grobo wrote:
If Terran or Zerg are careless they can lose entire groups to storm/lurkers/whatever in a matter of seconds. Are you saying that protoss are immune to storm/lurkers?
Yup, that's exactly what i was saying.
Protoss are immune to storm/lurkers.
...
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Braavos36374 Posts
This isn't a quality thread, but I laughed out loud at the poll, so I guess we'll leave it open for a bit.
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That's a pointless question. People allways think one race is harder than another and so on. But people play the game on different levels. If the question was "Which race is harder to play at D level ICCup" or "Which race is the hardest to play on public LT games on Bnet" it might have had an answer.
Example:
At extremely low level play people find terran the easiest because they can make mass bunkers and siege tanks and an equal opponent can't penetrate that defense.
At a slightly higher level where the players have just gotten an understanding of the importance of building workers constantly and making many units and learning about rushes most players would probably find protoss the easiest because their units are relatively easy to control against people who also has bad control. Basically attackmoved protoss units wins vs attackmoved units of another race.
At about D ICCup level one could argue that zerg can be easy to win with since at that level you can han bang your way through most opponents and thus you don't have to learn the art of lategame or harassment builds.
Sure I could 10/15 my way up to C- in PvT on medusa easily but I also managed to do that with all in zerg builds last season and earlier this season I could farm TvZ wins with mech builds on Destination because 90% or D+ players don't even know the vulture rush is coming. All that matters balance wise is what level you are currently on and what level your opponent is on and the scope is so wide that saying there is a universally easiest race is just about the stupidest thing you could say.
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On January 04 2009 07:45 StarBrift wrote:
That's a pointless question. People allways think one race is harder than another and so on. But people play the game on different levels. If the question was "Which race is harder to play at D level ICCup" or "Which race is the hardest to play on public LT games on Bnet" it might have had an answer.
Example:
At extremely low level play people find terran the easiest because they can make mass bunkers and siege tanks and an equal opponent can't penetrate that defense.
At a slightly higher level where the players have just gotten an understanding of the importance of building workers constantly and making many units and learning about rushes most players would probably find protoss the easiest because their units are relatively easy to control against people who also has bad control. Basically attackmoved protoss units wins vs attackmoved units of another race.
At about D ICCup level one could argue that zerg can be easy to win with since at that level you can han bang your way through most opponents and thus you don't have to learn the art of lategame or harassment builds.
Sure I could 10/15 my way up to C- in PvT on medusa easily but I also managed to do that with all in zerg builds last season and earlier this season I could farm TvZ wins with mech builds on Destination because 90% or D+ players don't even know the vulture rush is coming. All that matters balance wise is what level you are currently on and what level your opponent is on and the scope is so wide that saying there is a universally easiest race is just about the stupidest thing you could say.
I agree! Unless you imply that Protoss is not the easiest race. :/
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Yeah, protoss is definitely the easiest, especially at lower levels. I remember trying to play terran for 6 months or so and getting almost nowhere (c5 level on WGT around 4 years ago), then I switched to protoss and suddenly I was owning people. It could be that protoss is just more suited to my style, but realistically it really is easier, especially PvT vs TvP. PvZ was a lot easier for the zerg back then though because of the maps and lack of fast expo experience, but I guess nowadays people don't have a problem with it anymore.
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Protoss macro is also way easier. Lesser number of units but stronger = longer building time = less time needed to spend on building units. Also building more gates is just taking one probe, sap, sap, back to mineral line and you got two more gateways.
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Hahahaha the poll is total ownage
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On January 04 2009 07:26 Sadist wrote:
Protoss has the largest room for error.
The units are relatively strong and mobile so you arent punished as bad for being out of position or caught off guard because you can run away. Toss can harass OR play passively pretty easily. The micro is very simple.
Zerg is fragile and theres always the drone management.
Terran is hard to use effectively, the multi task and annoying pathing with slowish units can cause some stupid errors, not to mention if caught out of position the terran army is REALLY shitty.
Toss also has really good build orders nowadays. You can get big leads that are very difficult to overcome for lower tiered terran and zergs.
i disagree. terran has the largest room for error because even if they fuck up and lose, for example, a group of mm to lurkers, they still always have the 'han bahng' (one hit), ie. they can hold up and amass one last blob to push out and either end it or lose.
and at lower lvls, toss is proly easier but at higher lvls toss requires quite a bit of micro if you wanna be really good. if you look at the 6 dragons they all have really good micro with the exception of best who makes up for it with insane macro ;o
but at lower lvls also, pvz is still ridiculously hard so it kinda makes up for it >>
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i played the 3 races, found p way easier.
On iccup, i went :
P = C+
Z = C
T = C-
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I always thought its easier to be a center forward than a midfielder (talking about football) but hey who knows, i never reached a consensus because well.
+ Show Spoiler +its a fucking dumb argument
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Where's the poll option for; "The game of Starcraft is hard as **** to play."
There is no easy race. Some may be slightly easier than others are different levels but this entire game is VERY hard to play well.
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On January 04 2009 07:42 Hot_Bid wrote:
This isn't a quality thread, but I laughed out loud at the poll, so I guess we'll leave it open for a bit.
Thx Hot_Bid! The truth must come out!
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Don't confuse easy with powerful, protoss is easy. Protoss has strong, but more expensive units -> less to marco -> less to micro. Protoss require less bases than zerg to play properly, although more than terran. However, to use a terran army you need to siege + lay mines very well to not get steam rolled by a basic protoss push.
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Reaver + Corsairs require alot of skills. Most other protoss builds require less skill than most terran or zerg builds/unitcombos.
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On January 04 2009 09:11 Jaeden wrote:nothin` more
Quick, lock the thread before the protoss show up!
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I'm a D/D- terran on ICCUP and TvP is my favorite matchup. I have a friend who's rougly C/C+ who can play any of the races fairly well.
So, one day, we played a TvP and I did a lotta shit wrong and he's like I'll show you how it works, so play P yo. We started a PvT right there. Now, you have to understand that this was probably my first serious game as Protoss (not serious games = stack cannon defense or... what's it called? That game where 2 people make units and one controls them on a battlefield.), so I didn't know what the fuck I was doing.
The map was Katrina, which I recall has a PvT imba 'cause of carriers fucking everything over and... well... I almost won that game. With carriers, yes, but still. My macro was fairly spot on for a newb (I ran out of money in the end because I didn't realize expoing to other mains WASN'T going to leave them defenseless), my micro was good enough I guess that he could never actually push to endgame (I flanked him a few times, oh I'm so proud of myself). Only reason I really lost was because I teched +4 interceptors, sent out about 5-7 carriers and realized HWERE THE FUCK ARE THE EXTRA INTERCEPTORS?!?!?
My evidence for toss being the easiest.
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lol ... poll is bug >
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I laugh at the protoss who picked zerg and terran lol. Your race is easy but there's no shame.
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pretty much every protoss unit is easy to use, stormers are NOT hard to use at all.. At low levels protoss is auto win because you dont need timing like terran and zerg you just have to macro and A move over their army. At high levels it gets super hard thoguh because every player that isnt protoss is super solid with defense so you have to attack weak areas.
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lol, protoss is easiest among noobs, it's a different story when you climb over Crank.. After that I would say zerg is the easiest.
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Tried all 3 races for a long period and with protoss i just can stare more at my units then with terran and zerg
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OP: have you even tried terran/zerg?
i can macro pretty damn well with toss and reached C rank within 6 months of gameplay.
for Terran, it's a different story.
PROTOSS IS EASY NUFF SAID
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
I'm a shitty C/C+ zerg with mediocre mechanics.
Does this mean within 6 months time I can become a B protoss??????
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z is probably not harder than t before you reach pro level and even then its not a big difference if any at all, at any foreigner level T is harder than z. P is easiest of course.
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uh i think some of the people stating which race is weakest should prob also include the race they play. Cause I think I see some bias opinions.
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CA10828 Posts
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On January 04 2009 09:19 Azrael1111 wrote:Quick, lock the thread before the protoss show up!
What the hell are you talking about? -__-
Protoss players know that Protoss is the easiest at lower levels. Heck, I played Terran on iCCup and went 3:3 before switching to Protoss and going 7:1 because it's so damn easy.
So we know, Protoss is EZPZ.
At pro level however, Protoss requires a lot of game sense.
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toss is the easiest race for a beginner to play but for an advanced gamer its the hardest race out of all 3
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Because they require less mechanics, at the foreign level Protoss is very easy.
I'm a terran player, with around 260 APM and I lose almost every game on ICCUP. On weeks that I play Toss (off-race mind you) I get to D/D+. Terran just requires really good micro, and I have shit micro. Being able to attack move and get away with it is very nice.
Zerg has difficult macro, so I think a lot of people have difficulty with that. Zerg is the "hardest" just because it's a very different than the other two races.
But at the pro-level when everyone has perfect 300+ apm mechanics it doesn't even matter. It's balanced, slightly favoring Terran imo.
But Protoss is way easier to play.
-I could go to C+ with Toss if I main raced it and learned all the build orders/theory, I have pretty good macro. But Protoss is harder to play because you have to be more creative. Terran can do some variation on 1fac/2fac and just roll over you with pure mechanics. You don't even need to think, trust me. When I get 110 supply, with scans and a decent ball, unless the Protoss gets a perfect flank/perfect mine drag/suprise tech I already won the game. Same thing TvZ. Zerg needs to constantly harass to keep my army from being big enough to just eat their expansions alive. Terran is just mechanics.
Zerg and Protoss have to think, so it's hard at the pro levels. Harder than Terran. However since noobs have shitty mechanics, Protoss is ez.
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This thread may suck, but this is the greatest poll ever.
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On January 04 2009 09:47 Tien wrote:
I'm a shitty C/C+ zerg with mediocre mechanics.
Does this mean within 6 months time I can become a B protoss??????
6 months when i first started the game...
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Lol 236:14:8. I've tried all 3 races, and to me, Protoss is the easiest. Here's why:
Terran:
I can't get the hang of vultures and tanks vs goons and zealots (vultures always die, then zealots always kill the tanks)
A single mistake can cost you big (If a zealot drags mines to your tank)
Terran is actually a bit more expensive than Protoss (Factory 200 min 200 gas vs 150 min, 1 vulture + 1 tank is more than 1 goon and 1 zealot)
Zerg:
You need to sacrifice drones to make buildings
Easily killed
A lot of gas needed for tech
3 Larva might be a lot in early game, but once you reach mid-late game, that might not be enough
Protoss:
Goon's AI fails.
And that's about it. (Storming is hella easy. Just storm where you think the most units will be for the next 3 seconds)
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protoss is easier than the other races concerning micro/macro(timing is pretty much the same all around) and the lower level of play the more advantage protoss have. thats why you see mass cannon allll the time in really noob games, probes multi building solves so many macro problems beginers have, as well as the fact that protoss barely have to worry about unit position(...reaver/shuttle, templar, and....carrier?) iv seen progamers walk armies of zealots into groups of lurkers and pull out with few losses.(just damaged zealots)
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Well I agree on that point. Protoss is the easiest race on a low level.
To any beginner, I would suggest starting Starcraft with Protoss.
Don't get me wrong though - this doesn't justify any "imba!!11"-whining:
The "easiness" applies to low-level play only. As soon as the terrans start pushing efficiently or you get lurker-contained by a zerg, the beginner protoss player will notice that Dragoons/Zealots are just really inefficient compared to the other race's units...
That means:
Playing Protoss on a D- level might be easier than another race... but playing Protoss on C or B level isn't easier than Terran or Zerg by any means.
Or to put it that way:
If you whine about Protoss imbalance "because Protoss is so easy to play", well, then you admit that you obviously suck at Starcraft you just need to improve your skill level.
Regards,
Judicator
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On January 04 2009 09:47 Tien wrote:
I'm a shitty C/C+ zerg with mediocre mechanics.
Does this mean within 6 months time I can become a B protoss??????
only if you're really slow
90 APM DT rush gogo
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I don't think anyones saying imbalanced. Just the fact clearly at lower levels its much easier to play. Similar skill level protoss vs zerg or terran is easier to win that the opposite. It seems very easy against protoss to get quickly overwhelmed if any mistakes are made.
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Wow! That poll. LOL, wasn't expecting it to be that much of a landslide
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I have a friend that used to play zerg for like 6-7 years. I play random. When we played vs each other he would probably win 1 in 20 games if he was lucky and i was trying to be cute with some wierd strategy. Well, same friend more recently began to play protoss from time to time, wining at least 2-3 PvT in 10 games vs me, having played maybe less than 100 games as protoss.
I also find it the easiest to win as P after i've had a long break from SC, say over six months.
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As a Z user, I can't play any of the other races well and once you get the hang of muta micro, zerg is pretty easy to play...
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United States10328 Posts
wait oops I just accidentally clicked Z T.T
well I have discovered that after playing T for like a year I still cannot win games on ICCUP because I have no idea what to do... and pushing is so damn hard
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United States17042 Posts
at a really basic level you can get away with saying that each race needs one skill.
Have macro? go P
have micro? go T
Have gamesense? go Z
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On January 04 2009 10:06 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Because they require less mechanics, at the foreign level Protoss is very easy.
I'm a terran player, with around 260 APM and I lose almost every game on ICCUP.
...
On weeks that I play Toss (off-race mind you) I get to D/D+.
...
-I could go to C+ with Toss if I main raced it and learned all the build orders/theory, I have pretty good macro.
Made my day.
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Poll: Which Race cries harder?
(Vote): Zerg (OMFG MAPS)
(Vote): Terran (OMFG 1a2a3a)
(Vote): Protoss (Why everyone says we are noob?)
fixed a little
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United States1865 Posts
the OP's poll is the greatest thing of all time
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On January 04 2009 13:06 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:Poll: Which Race cries harder?( Vote): Zerg (OMFG MAPS) ( Vote): Terran (OMFG 1a2a3a) ( Vote): Protoss (Why everyone says we are noob?) fixed a little
Think Artosis, lol.
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voted for zerg though, they even cried back in the days pvz was like 40-60 on every map
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It's been said by the progamers many times, that the biggest imbal unit in sc is vulture, and biggest imbal mu is tvz :D
Hence all I see is terrans wining cause they can't man up and learn to multitask better ;D
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If protoss was so easy at low level then you wouldn't see any D-/D protosses since theyll all kickass up to D+/C-
But D-/D are filled with protosses...
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CA10828 Posts
On January 04 2009 14:01 fearus wrote:
If protoss was so easy at low level then you wouldn't see any D-/D protosses since theyll all kickass up to D+/C-
But D-/D are filled with protosses...
too many protosses... they lose against each other?
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On January 04 2009 14:08 LosingID8 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 14:01 fearus wrote:
If protoss was so easy at low level then you wouldn't see any D-/D protosses since theyll all kickass up to D+/C-
But D-/D are filled with protosses... too many protosses... they lose against each other?
try to get over D-/D ranks ^^
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Just take a look at TLPD on the right side of this page. Highest ranking race is clearly protoss then terran then zerg. There is almost no zerg near the top except Jaedong (he would probably be much better had he focused on Protoss when he started).
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I'm D+/C- iccup generally, with Z being my strongest race (that gets me to C-) and P usually keeps me high D+. I would debate I can even play Terran at a D+ level at all, and struggle vs other D's.
I find terran the hardest to play, but maybe it's because of the mere lack of trying to even play them. When I do I find myself not throwing down enough factories and the timing of whcih I add them is utterly terrible, I for some reason rarely get past 6 factories (which I can build with ok timing), and then I get slaughtered in macro.
While I can macro MM fine, I can't manage them for shit. Like at ALL. Instantly gets killed by anything.
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Everyone saying "protoss is easy, and terran is hard" is a joke. Please try to play PvT around B- level it is so fucking hard.
What does "protoss is easy at low levels" mean? Does that mean around C- level? Cause all the time I see zergs easying there way up to C, using 2 hatch builds, mass ling builds, 5 pools.
What about terrans on iccup? TvP at low levels I can almost gurrentee that the terran will just 110 supply push and rape most protoss players.
Most the people here saying protoss is an easy race are just nooby bandwagoners.
I don't follow the pro scene too closely but from my knowledge I can say that there has been no top protoss player for any long period of time, no one that comes close the the reigns that Boxer, or Savior, or NaDa, or July have had. So even if protoss is "EASY" at low levels such as D+ and C- who the fuck cares? Since it is clearly the harder race through the higher levels, and the higher levels are where it counts.
Stop bitching because your bad. Stop bitching because you want to look like you know what your talking about.
EDIT* O yea and for people saying that protoss is easy because it doesn't require apm, you really need to look at apm threads. APM MEANS NOTHING.
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On January 04 2009 14:38 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
Everyone saying "protoss is easy, and terran is hard" is a joke. Please try to play PvT around B- level it is so fucking hard.
What does "protoss is easy at low levels" mean? Does that mean around C- level? Cause all the time I see zergs easying there way up to C, using 2 hatch builds, mass ling builds, 5 pools.
What about terrans on iccup? TvP at low levels I can almost gurrentee that the terran will just 110 supply push and rape most protoss players.
Most the people here saying protoss is an easy race are just nooby bandwagoners.
I don't follow the pro scene too closely but from my knowledge I can say that there has been no top protoss player for any long period of time, no one that comes close the the reigns that Boxer, or Savior, or NaDa, or July have had. So even if protoss is "EASY" at low levels such as D+ and C- who the fuck cares? Since it is clearly the harder race through the higher levels, and the higher levels are where it counts.
Stop bitching because your bad. Stop bitching because you want to look like you know what your talking about.
EDIT* O yea and for people saying that protoss is easy because it doesn't require apm, you really need to look at apm threads. APM MEANS NOTHING.
I bet I could beat you if you couldn't go above 15 apm.
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On January 04 2009 14:50 Dr.Dragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 14:38 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
Everyone saying "protoss is easy, and terran is hard" is a joke. Please try to play PvT around B- level it is so fucking hard.
What does "protoss is easy at low levels" mean? Does that mean around C- level? Cause all the time I see zergs easying there way up to C, using 2 hatch builds, mass ling builds, 5 pools.
What about terrans on iccup? TvP at low levels I can almost gurrentee that the terran will just 110 supply push and rape most protoss players.
Most the people here saying protoss is an easy race are just nooby bandwagoners.
I don't follow the pro scene too closely but from my knowledge I can say that there has been no top protoss player for any long period of time, no one that comes close the the reigns that Boxer, or Savior, or NaDa, or July have had. So even if protoss is "EASY" at low levels such as D+ and C- who the fuck cares? Since it is clearly the harder race through the higher levels, and the higher levels are where it counts.
Stop bitching because your bad. Stop bitching because you want to look like you know what your talking about.
EDIT* O yea and for people saying that protoss is easy because it doesn't require apm, you really need to look at apm threads. APM MEANS NOTHING. I bet I could beat you if you couldn't go above 15 apm.
Well maybe.... I could just 4 pool as zerg or scv rush as terran, but as protoss I would be screwed.
But only noobs who don't know where your miners go at start have such low apm
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I'm C/C+ terran, and i can hit C- with protoss, and D+ with zerg... that explains a lot.
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So as a D level protoss, I will give my qualified opinion, since most of the "Protoss is easy" people say they got to D+ as protoss. Even though I have failed to do so (and protoss is my main), I suppose I am still qualified to state my opinion, since nobody else seems to have played PvX higher than D/D+ level either (other than the protoss players, of course).
I struggle against D level zergs. To me, this is a sign that zerg is actually harder, and the good players are shoved down to the D ranks. but everyone also knows that ZvP is the easy zerg matchup, so I'm going to ignore this. Yes, storm is easy to use, but the timing and guesswork in PvZ make it somewhat tricky in the strategy section. Also, do pure hydra breaks really use more micro than defending against them?
PvT is the interesting case. It is relatively easy at D levels because either the terran doesn't know how to macro, or doesn't know how to push. And to be honest, if you have an observer outside their choke, 1a2a3a really does work if you do it when they push out. I am betting that TvP becomes insanely easy for the terran for a while (probably at least to D+) once he learns to push.
Plus the fact that the most commonly played map on iccup is python, and although I don't know how applicable it is to D level play, the stats ARE 60% against protoss in both matchups.
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I think (and this is my opinion, and noone cares about THAT xD) that protoss is the easiest for a beginner to learn. It is true that protoss CAN hotkey all their units in one group, but it just isn't that efficient. Hotkeying zealots in one group and dragoons in another can be the difference in a pvt battle.
Also, in some cases, a C-/C protoss may find himself in an awkward position on iCCup. D+ is almost too easy, yet above that is too hard. Why? It's because they THINK they've got all the protoss mechanics down, they THINK because they have high APM, they hotkey their units, they can type "ww" like a korean. Truth is, there's still so much protoss needs to perfect before they really "master" the protoss race. Because terran and zerg are so hard to begin with, it's harder for them to get up into higher rankings on iCCup. Therefore, because of that, if they indeed ARE in the higher rankings, they must be pretty darn good. Protoss, on the other hand, can face 12-pool and FE tvp up 1/3 of the ladder. That's pretty much when-
Eh, I gotta go xD
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One thing you guys are forgetting is that Protoss has the best asshole units in the game.
Reaver, DT, High Templar are all excellent at harassing and can reduce a well-saturated expo into a worker graveyard in a matter of seconds.
On the other hand Protoss is a very harass proof race against Zerg, and somewhat harass proof against Terran.
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When a Toss reaver drops a Terran, who's doing more work
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I can't believe this discussion has been brought up. -_-
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eh that was kinda offensive nevermind
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On January 04 2009 16:05 MaTaAeRuKaNa wrote:
When a Toss reaver drops a Terran, who's doing more work
rofll
With protoss an army can win with just 1a2a3a4a, with zerg the army needs at least a "u" if lurkers are in it, obv if the zerg is gosu enough to last long enough against the EZ toss to get ultralisks/lings, they deserve the easy 1a2a3a4a too as a reward. Terran can never 1a2a3a, they have absolutely no chance of winning any battles that way, they have to siege, lay mines, make sure their formation is correct, pay attention of where enemy units are, and constantly use siege tanks to targer goons, and pulling vultures back so they don't get infront and get wasted by goon fire. At the same time they have to also macro;;
And for TvZ, terran has to use scan to fight vs lurkers, pay close attentino to vessels, dodge lurker spines, micro dropshpis for diversion attacks, rarely does a terran ever win by only attacking with his main force. They also have to siege tanks, pay attention of enemy's position for flanks, and at the same time macro the quick building marines.
what protoss got? cannon for expos, 1a2a3a4T t for storm.
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it's pretty awesome how some protoss are arguing for... against* themselves :O
well actually a LOT LOL
*just noticed poll*
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On January 04 2009 16:16 YPang wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 16:05 MaTaAeRuKaNa wrote:
When a Toss reaver drops a Terran, who's doing more work rofll With protoss an army can win with just 1a2a3a4a, with zerg the army needs at least a "u" if lurkers are in it, obv if the zerg is gosu enough to last long enough against the EZ toss to get ultralisks/lings, they deserve the easy 1a2a3a4a too as a reward. Terran can never 1a2a3a, they have absolutely no chance of winning any battles that way, they have to siege, lay mines, make sure their formation is correct, pay attention of where enemy units are, and constantly use siege tanks to targer goons, and pulling vultures back so they don't get infront and get wasted by goon fire. At the same time they have to also macro;; And for TvZ, terran has to use scan to fight vs lurkers, pay close attentino to vessels, dodge lurker spines, micro dropshpis for diversion attacks, rarely does a terran ever win by only attacking with his main force. They also have to siege tanks, pay attention of enemy's position for flanks, and at the same time macro the quick building marines. what protoss got? cannon for expos, 1a2a3a4T t for storm.
I still can't believe people say toss is just 1a2a3a4a... What do you do with zealots against mines? Do you clump them? Do you have goons in a line so splash owns every goon there is? You know that thing called storm has to be PLACED as well right?
Your arguments fall apart because for every advantage there is, a disadvantage comes along with it, which makes starcraft balanced. For example, In TvZ, with the proper formation, micro can be minimalized. I don't know how many zergs actually target marines, but sending two periphery rines towards the zerg peripheries will usually give you enough time to either kill lurkers or retreat. While zerg unburrows and burrows lurks, terran macros. Zerg, on the other hand can macro in one swift move either by grouping hatches or hotkeying potentially up to 15 production buildings at once.
Pay close attention to vessels = mine sweeping with goons. Not exactly equivalent, but still takes effort for searching vults/mines (scanning for ultras and defilers) and looking for scourge (tanks) and sending them.
This thread is retarded. Yes protoss is easier in lower levels due to their early- to mid- game versatility of the units, but as skill level increases, they all demand similar amount of effort.
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No one here seems to have played Protoss past c. I got c- on iccup with Zerg by five pooling so therefore I conclude that Zerg is easy race that requires no macro and little micro. Just 1a and I win ezpz.
And with terran I just did 2fact fast push too d+ so clearly they are a race that requires almost no skill.
I am c+ Protoss and with less then 200games of Terran and or Zerg I can achieve low ranks on iccup. Ridiculous how easy Zerg and Terran are.
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mine sweep def is MUCH easier than paying attentino to vessels, once u get the observer above the goon there's nothing else to be done. And to make the job even easier, upgrade ob speed!!
btw: despite how much i complain i have tried numerous times to switch to toss but failed and always came back to terran, i feel more comfortable handling a group of rines/medics or tanks/vults in comparision with goons/zeals. Plus toss uses goons/zeals every MU, it gets so boring... i can't play more than 1 20min PvZ's in a day, i've tried.. T_T; their simplistic yet strong units just don't appeal to me.
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On January 04 2009 14:38 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
Everyone saying "protoss is easy, and terran is hard" is a joke. Please try to play PvT around B- level it is so fucking hard.
its hard for you because you're bad
if i play jaedong im gonna find it really hard
does that mean z>t?
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there is evidence that 368 (currently) whiny zergs voted in this thread.
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On January 04 2009 16:58 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 14:38 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
Everyone saying "protoss is easy, and terran is hard" is a joke. Please try to play PvT around B- level it is so fucking hard.
its hard for you because you're bad if i play jaedong im gonna find it really hard does that mean z>t?
gg
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On January 04 2009 16:05 MaTaAeRuKaNa wrote:
When a Toss reaver drops a Terran, who's doing more work
the terran
On January 04 2009 16:29 Wala.Revolution wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 16:16 YPang wrote:On January 04 2009 16:05 MaTaAeRuKaNa wrote:
When a Toss reaver drops a Terran, who's doing more work rofll With protoss an army can win with just 1a2a3a4a, with zerg the army needs at least a "u" if lurkers are in it, obv if the zerg is gosu enough to last long enough against the EZ toss to get ultralisks/lings, they deserve the easy 1a2a3a4a too as a reward. Terran can never 1a2a3a, they have absolutely no chance of winning any battles that way, they have to siege, lay mines, make sure their formation is correct, pay attention of where enemy units are, and constantly use siege tanks to targer goons, and pulling vultures back so they don't get infront and get wasted by goon fire. At the same time they have to also macro;; And for TvZ, terran has to use scan to fight vs lurkers, pay close attentino to vessels, dodge lurker spines, micro dropshpis for diversion attacks, rarely does a terran ever win by only attacking with his main force. They also have to siege tanks, pay attention of enemy's position for flanks, and at the same time macro the quick building marines. what protoss got? cannon for expos, 1a2a3a4T t for storm. I still can't believe people say toss is just 1a2a3a4a... What do you do with zealots against mines? Do you clump them? Do you have goons in a line so splash owns every goon there is? You know that thing called storm has to be PLACED as well right?
sorry, didnt know the move command was so much more complex than attack move
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I've said it once and I'll say it again. Protoss is mechanically easier than the rest of the races, but strategically more difficult than the other races.
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On January 04 2009 16:58 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 14:38 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
Everyone saying "protoss is easy, and terran is hard" is a joke. Please try to play PvT around B- level it is so fucking hard.
its hard for you because you're bad if i play jaedong im gonna find it really hard does that mean z>t?
No it just means your bad similiarly if Protoss is "easy" on low levels does that not mean the player is just better then the oppnent?
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On January 04 2009 15:37 Perguvious wrote:
I think (and this is my opinion, and noone cares about THAT xD) that protoss is the easiest for a beginner to learn. It is true that protoss CAN hotkey all their units in one group, but it just isn't that efficient. Hotkeying zealots in one group and dragoons in another can be the difference in a pvt battle.
Also, in some cases, a C-/C protoss may find himself in an awkward position on iCCup. D+ is almost too easy, yet above that is too hard. Why? It's because they THINK they've got all the protoss mechanics down, they THINK because they have high APM, they hotkey their units, they can type "ww" like a korean. Truth is, there's still so much protoss needs to perfect before they really "master" the protoss race. Because terran and zerg are so hard to begin with, it's harder for them to get up into higher rankings on iCCup. Therefore, because of that, if they indeed ARE in the higher rankings, they must be pretty darn good. Protoss, on the other hand, can face 12-pool and FE tvp up 1/3 of the ladder. That's pretty much when-
Eh, I gotta go xD
lol whatup it's me "Loptomist" the terran who stopped you from getting C- earlier today.
taht was a good game though =)
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On January 04 2009 06:58 Dalroti wrote:
Protoss is the easiest race
Terran is harder
Zerg is the hardest
?? I always thought everyone had said Terran is the hardest, but either way I still agree protoss is easiest.
- workers can build multiple things and the probe runs off, throughout early-lategame there arent a tonne of specific weaknesses protoss has, zealots > marines + zerglings, observers are cloaked and can see cloaked units, you can often just 1a2a3a4a, no "o" for siege, or "i" for mines, no "bt" for turrets, or "9s0s" for scan, no "u" for burrow lurks, no colonies to build then morph into sunks or spores. "bc" and you have a guard tower that can detect, hit ait, hit ground, and has rechargable shields. more too but im getting lazy
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On January 04 2009 17:07 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 16:58 IdrA wrote:On January 04 2009 14:38 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
Everyone saying "protoss is easy, and terran is hard" is a joke. Please try to play PvT around B- level it is so fucking hard.
its hard for you because you're bad if i play jaedong im gonna find it really hard does that mean z>t? No it just means your bad similiarly if Protoss is "easy" on low levels does that not mean the player is just better then the oppnent?
you CANT deny that protoss is easy on the lower levels.
and have you even tried terran? i'll bet a "B-" Protoss is something equivalent to like a C Terran.
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On January 04 2009 17:14 clazziquai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 17:07 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:On January 04 2009 16:58 IdrA wrote:On January 04 2009 14:38 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
Everyone saying "protoss is easy, and terran is hard" is a joke. Please try to play PvT around B- level it is so fucking hard.
its hard for you because you're bad if i play jaedong im gonna find it really hard does that mean z>t? No it just means your bad similiarly if Protoss is "easy" on low levels does that not mean the player is just better then the oppnent? you CANT deny that protoss is easy on the lower levels. and have you even tried terran? i'll bet a "B-" Protoss is something equivalent to like a C Terran.
Fair enough but you can't deny it's hard at high levels where skill actually matters because such as with pros u get paid to play.
Although I always found when I was newer to sc that pvz was a massive pain in the cock
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It's a pain to delete things on my touch so I will post again.
Since u eddited in the second art I completely disagree and you should quit sc for thinking that. I personally wished I played t and not p because I have such high apm I can easily control Terran and terran only needs good control to win. Therefore Terran skill = apm = east to get.
300apm =b+ Terran
Ps I would be in Korea already if I played terran.
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Just chiming in to say that Protoss is indeed the easiest race and there really is no debate as the poll shows; and bringing up pro gamers is stupid because no one here besides Idra is a pro gamer and even he says Protoss is easy shit.
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Although there has never been a long reiging top Protoss pro like boxer oov July savior or nada
The poll is without a doubt mostly bandwagoning noobs
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On January 04 2009 17:06 Seraphim wrote:
I've said it once and I'll say it again. Protoss is mechanically easier than the rest of the races, but strategically more difficult than the other races.
This.
But I guess it doesn't matter because everyone's gonna hold onto what they think is right
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On January 04 2009 17:46 BanZu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 17:06 Seraphim wrote:
I've said it once and I'll say it again. Protoss is mechanically easier than the rest of the races, but strategically more difficult than the other races. This. But I guess it doesn't matter because everyone's gonna hold onto what they think is right
I agree with that aswell.
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lol I might add that Protoss is not difficult strategically anymore. Maybe in old PvZ but nowadays, you just scout, defend and expand accordingly, then move out with your blob while getting more expos. PvT is a joke strategically, and if the Terran is good enough to deflect everything you throw at him, it's because he's just plain better than you and not because "PROTOSS IS SO HARD", I can almost guarantee that.
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On January 04 2009 14:38 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
Everyone saying "protoss is easy, and terran is hard" is a joke. Please try to play PvT around B- level it is so fucking hard.
Was gonna say that. T with good timing and B/O's is imba, he dosent even need to know how to macro/micro (check media terrans). Go fe -> go second exp with ups -> 150/200 push out. While u exp u can harrasm with 1 group of vultures  . Meanwhile me as toss, i am controlling +12gates, trying to secure exps vs vulture raids and trying to break the terrans slow push with arbiters + retarted goons.
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On January 04 2009 16:58 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 14:38 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
Everyone saying "protoss is easy, and terran is hard" is a joke. Please try to play PvT around B- level it is so fucking hard.
its hard for you because you're bad if i play jaedong im gonna find it really hard does that mean z>t?
z>t, cause z uses ultras
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On non-pro levels (i.e. everyone except Korean progamers) Terran is the hardest (mainly due to the ton of multitasking required to play well), but on pro level Zerg is the hardest (mainly because there's almost ZERO room for error - make one tiny mistake and you can almost write 'gg' because you've just lost half your army/half your base/half your drones).
P is very easy in comparison...
- P has lots of room for errors (high HP units). This also means that they require less micro
- P has the BEST harass units in the game (storm drop, reaver drop, DT drop, and corsairs vs Zerg - all of which can be totally devastating)
- P has free scouting ("maphack") in PvZ when building just 1 corsair, whereas Z doesn't have free scouting anymore once corsairs are out because he needs to protect his overlords
- P can protect every expansion with mass cannon spam whereas Z almost always has undefended expansions because all money needs to be invested directly into army
- P's main army composition in EVERY matchup consists of zealots and goons, which have no special abilities and don't require a lot of micro, the most likely only special ability P uses is storm (every matchup) and stasis (vs T and P), neither of which are hard to use (you just have to remember to use it). Terran needs to siege tanks, lay mines, scan, and stim. Zerg needs to use defilers, micro mutas, micro lurkers, flank properly, and have an annoying time with 982392347 lings and only 12 slots per group. And now maybe even queens are required too. This is just an insane amount of tasks to do, P can just comapratively "chill out" and macro their basic units (goons, lots) like mad and then A-click.
- Corsairs are so strong that P can just mass them and without ANY micro (just A-click) have complete air control over Zerg because they totally rape mutas and Z has to micro scourges very carefully or be forced to switch to hydras (which is the usual way of dealing with a sair opening)
- ... I bet there's more
For me personally, this means:
- zero respect for successful foreigner Protoss players
- quickly decreasing respect for successful Korean pro Protoss players
- lots of respect for successful foreigner Terran players
- lots of respect for successful Korean pro Zergs
It's just a joke really... SC is also becoming increasingly boring because of this.
Top foreign players: easily 70% Protoss, and now top 10 KeSPA also 60-70% Protoss.
It's just RIDICULOUS.
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On January 04 2009 17:46 BanZu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 17:06 Seraphim wrote:
I've said it once and I'll say it again. Protoss is mechanically easier than the rest of the races, but strategically more difficult than the other races. This. But I guess it doesn't matter because everyone's gonna hold onto what they think is right
I've always thought zerg was strategically the hardest to be honest
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Poll rocks.
There's your answer. Internet won. Argumentation futile.
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reason is b/c protoss is very strong and rather cheap and quick 1 goon less time and resocres then tank, also a toss can throw army at oppont and with little mirco management at times (not always) come on top to a equal or slighly higher level opponet, terran on the other had requires a higher apm and game sense which in turn need better skill, for examply in tvz they must stim the rines seige the tank and irrated the lurks with vessals, compare to toss now who must psi storm and attack. finaly zerg, they seem to be hard b/c u need the right combo, what other race loses harvesters when building tech or defense... non of them, what other race has some of the weakest units that UNLESS in a mass form die quickly. example is zvp where the zerg must macro quite well and not allow toss to mass and u know the rest
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I love the bitching and moaning. I feed off your Terran and Zerg tears! Mwahahaha!
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On January 04 2009 17:10 clazziquai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 15:37 Perguvious wrote:
I think (and this is my opinion, and noone cares about THAT xD) that protoss is the easiest for a beginner to learn. It is true that protoss CAN hotkey all their units in one group, but it just isn't that efficient. Hotkeying zealots in one group and dragoons in another can be the difference in a pvt battle.
Also, in some cases, a C-/C protoss may find himself in an awkward position on iCCup. D+ is almost too easy, yet above that is too hard. Why? It's because they THINK they've got all the protoss mechanics down, they THINK because they have high APM, they hotkey their units, they can type "ww" like a korean. Truth is, there's still so much protoss needs to perfect before they really "master" the protoss race. Because terran and zerg are so hard to begin with, it's harder for them to get up into higher rankings on iCCup. Therefore, because of that, if they indeed ARE in the higher rankings, they must be pretty darn good. Protoss, on the other hand, can face 12-pool and FE tvp up 1/3 of the ladder. That's pretty much when-
Eh, I gotta go xD lol whatup it's me "Loptomist" the terran who stopped you from getting C- earlier today. taht was a good game though =)
(: xD 1m2m3m4m5m ftw!
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It's weird - after years of Starcraft without fundamental changes in the actual game, all of a sudden, Protoss is looked upon as "easy" and "imbalanced".
This can imply only one thing: some people are seizing the opportunity (a time of Protoss-domination in pro gaming Starcraft) to whine and bitch about the race and thus, the game.
The sad part about this is the fact that by doing so, these people dishonor the beautiful game that Starcraft is.
Shame on you.
Regards,
Judicator
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Protoss is not only the easiest at lower levels...but the same logic applies at the highest levels. their HP is still high, the groupings are still easier, the mechanics are still easier. The idea that all progaming matchups are intense therefore protoss control must be as hard as Terran or Zerg is not valid. At pro level the gap might be somewhat narrower but Toss is still by far the easiest to play because the millions of reasons that make them easy do not disappear with intensity.
i'd say T is by far the hardest at lower levels.. and Z is the hardest at the highest level...but by a very small margin over T. ZvP when dealing with TOSS FE and all their explosive damage + storm...and ZvT vs things like SK terran and near flawless FE Terran mechanics (which seems to limit the Z to 3 bases midgame) is extremely hard for Z. People like Jeadong and savior deserve lots of respect.
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because they're the most dominant race of the moment.
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On January 04 2009 21:36 Final_Judicator wrote:
It's weird - after years of Starcraft without fundamental changes in the actual game, all of a sudden, Protoss is looked upon as "easy" and "imbalanced".
This can imply only one thing: some people are seizing the opportunity (a time of Protoss-domination in pro gaming Starcraft) to whine and bitch about the race and thus, the game.
The sad part about this is the fact that by doing so, these people dishonor the beautiful game that Starcraft is.
Shame on you.
Regards,
Judicator
Its not imbalanced, in the history of pro gaming it is easily the weakest race. It's just simple to control with a higher degree of perfection.
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Yes Terran is the hardest, you have to macro and micro perfectly in order to use the race to its full potential. Tornado Style was the one closest to perfectly using Terran.
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On January 04 2009 21:36 Final_Judicator wrote:
It's weird - after years of Starcraft without fundamental changes in the actual game, all of a sudden, Protoss is looked upon as "easy" and "imbalanced".
This can imply only one thing: some people are seizing the opportunity (a time of Protoss-domination in pro gaming Starcraft) to whine and bitch about the race and thus, the game.
The sad part about this is the fact that by doing so, these people dishonor the beautiful game that Starcraft is.
Shame on you.
Regards,
Judicator
Well, the # of years don't mean THAT much in this regard.
Due to constantly changing maps and increasing skill levels, only since a short amount of time (maybe 1.5 years) we have this new situation in which Protoss suddenly dominates. It's still rather new that progamers play with 400-500 APM... this kind of speed didn't exist back in 2004.
If SC had been released in like 2005 or so, we probably would have reached this point in 2-3 instead of 10 years.
Maps also always changed... you absolutely can't compare SC from 1998 with SC from 2004 with SC from now. SC has approximately changed 3 times, and the maps play a huge role in this (from rather casual gaming (~1998-2000) to micro-based progaming (Boxer/Yellow/Garimto era) to macro-based progaming (Oov era) to "perfection" (Savior era and later)) - and after this third time, where we have players training for 10h/day playing at insane speeds with insane multitasking and with completely perfect build orders, Protoss suddenly starts to dominate.
It's not impossible that there is a slight balance problem which favors Protoss, and that this balance problem has only recently been discovered because earlier players simply weren't good enough yet.
The map makers better have something planned for 2009 to nerf Protoss, or else SC will go down the drain faster than one would expect. If Protoss continues to dominate we'll see even more PvPs this year. It'll be incredibly boring.
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Like many people have said before it's the mapmakers that balanced Starcraft not Blizzard.
They just need to stop making maps so Protoss favoring.
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Anyone ever considered the _fact_ Protoss is the race requiring most strategy and gamesense? If I would argue in the way all the "1a2a3a blabla" whiners do, I'd say Terran is the easiest race followed by Zerg. When do you see other than Protoss adapt to their opponnents play? Or should I say HAVE to adapt?
I would never say that but with the bunch of cryfags in this thread you just have to face what you're actually trying to imply. Arguing same way again it would be, "Terran sits base, macroes, maybe you see some proxyfac gayness in some games" or "Zerg doing stupid 2 hatch muta lameness every game, greeding for 3rd gas to get imbalisks". Sounds retarded? Now imagine thats the way you sound.
€: Oh and if so Protoss uses the most perfect builds I guess the other races should do that too instead of crying like little girls. There's no manliness in Zerg or Terran players?
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On January 04 2009 07:29 FREEloss_ca wrote:
I think it all varies at different levels of play.
At D level Terran is the hardest to play, protoss is the easiest, zerg is just in the middle. At this level you can get away with having sub-par micro and macro as a Protoss because the units are stronger and easier to control, but something you can't as a zerg or terran because zerg units are so squishy and Terran units take more mechanics to control.
Strategically at low levels I think toss is harder to play. Obviously it is physically easier and you can do very well with APM just over 100 whereas for a similar level in T or Z you'd be looking at 150+ APM. But for Terran they are so solid in defense with mines, siege tanks, bunkers, turrets, etc. (or lurker/sunk defense), which frees up a lot of thought as a new player. When you are relatively new and don't know how to break contains or stop pushes it can be very hard to play against even poor T/Z players. Toss also has to mix up builds a lot more (apart from maps were 10/15 gate is strong xD) and scout a lot which can be hard for lower tier players.
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IMO Protoss is easiest and Terran is hardest. I'm a Protoss player btw and I had recently switched to Terran and back to Protoss. Terran was definitely more challenging but that wasn't the reason I went back. I found PvZ a lot more fun that TvZ in many ways.
Anyways as many people have said, Protoss is the easiest because of easy macro/easy micro. This gives Protoss players somewhat of an advantage in lower levels but this advantage is nullified in higher levels cuz everyone should have good mechanics by then (unless they are cheesy players). The case can be made that Protoss requires a lot of game sense but so do Zerg and Terran. And besides, who has a lot of game sense at lower levels -_-
Terran I believe is the hardest with Zerg not too far behind. Terran armies require a LOT of babysitting. Basically the only Terran units that can be a-moved only are Goliaths and Valks. Zergs have easier micro than Terran I feel but tougher macro due to larvae management. Therefore I believe Terran is slightly tougher than Zerg overall but Protoss is definitely the easiest mechanics-wise.
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Have any pros qualified this statement that protoss is the easiest? I know that we'll probably still argue even if some pros say it, but has it actually been said?
I also believe that protoss is easiest.
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Simply try to reach D+ on ICC with each race, then come back and answer your own question.
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lawl this is like terrans saying 'oh look 6 dragons.. p imbal.. oh 1a2a3a p is easiest'..
ya how much does it cost to get vultures?? 75?? WOW LESS THAN ZEAL!!
and how much is a mine upgrade?? WHAT?!?!? LESS THAN A ZEAL LEGUP!?!?!?
so who wins with good micro vulture vs zeal?? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ZOMG!!!!
on top of this, whats this?? siegemode with longest attack range that cancels all defence towers and bunker + repair thats almost beyond imbal that its not funny???
and don't give me this 'low level, high level' nonsense cause as far as i know, we've had 3 terran bonjwas, and 1 zrg bonjwa in this game who have all been dominating at their times to the point that made them look unbeatable..
wait was that 3 terrans and 1 zerg?? uhmmmmmmmmmm so wheres protoss??
until bisu reigned to fame, protoss was just a race to be toyed around by zerg and good showbiz to make terrans look almighty and now, finally, they get some spotlights and all of sudden tosses are imbal..
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On January 04 2009 22:48 mIsUZu wrote:
lawl this is like terrans saying 'oh look 6 dragons.. p imbal.. oh 1a2a3a p is easiest'..
ya how much does it cost to get vultures?? 75?? WOW LESS THAN ZEAL!!
and how much is a mine upgrade?? WHAT?!?!? LESS THAN A ZEAL LEGUP!?!?!?
so who wins with good micro vulture vs zeal?? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ZOMG!!!!
on top of this, whats this?? siegemode with longest attack range that cancels all defence towers and bunker + repair thats almost beyond imbal that its not funny???
and don't give me this 'low level, high level' nonsense cause as far as i know, we've had 3 terran bonjwas, and 1 zrg bonjwa in this game who have all been dominating at their times to the point that made them look unbeatable..
wait was that 3 terrans and 1 zerg?? uhmmmmmmmmmm so wheres protoss??
until bisu reigned to fame, protoss was just a race to be toyed around by zerg and good showbiz to make terrans look almighty and now, finally, they get some spotlights and all of sudden tosses are imbal..
listen to this wise man
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On January 04 2009 22:48 mIsUZu wrote:
lawl this is like terrans saying 'oh look 6 dragons.. p imbal.. oh 1a2a3a p is easiest'..
ya how much does it cost to get vultures?? 75?? WOW LESS THAN ZEAL!!
and how much is a mine upgrade?? WHAT?!?!? LESS THAN A ZEAL LEGUP!?!?!?
so who wins with good micro vulture vs zeal?? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ZOMG!!!!
on top of this, whats this?? siegemode with longest attack range that cancels all defence towers and bunker + repair thats almost beyond imbal that its not funny???
and don't give me this 'low level, high level' nonsense cause as far as i know, we've had 3 terran bonjwas, and 1 zrg bonjwa in this game who have all been dominating at their times to the point that made them look unbeatable..
wait was that 3 terrans and 1 zerg?? uhmmmmmmmmmm so wheres protoss??
until bisu reigned to fame, protoss was just a race to be toyed around by zerg and good showbiz to make terrans look almighty and now, finally, they get some spotlights and all of sudden tosses are imbal..
This is the protoss is easy thread, not the protoss is powerful thread. You have what most people are saying about when it is easy (which is at low levels) confused with high level. You talk about siege tanks which require sieging and vultures which require mining, both require more micro than attack with dragoons/zealots and if you don't do them well you will lose to a simple push. Hence, it is easier to use. Once both players are very skilled in the game it becomes very hard in fact to stop a terran push, because it requires and benefits more from micro.
And to gg_hertz Idra has said protoss is the easiest at low levels serveral times, not sure about anybody else.
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I think it has also alot to do with map composition, the fact that on most of the newer maps protoss cannons can control droppoints and get spammed so much that id discourages drops. and their economy just skyrockets. Also the pylon block is very very powerfull.
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Lol some time ago everyone would have said Protoss is the HARDEST race to play while zerg is the easiest race to play. It depends on the korean progamer results what the people are thinking.
Generally to say: Protoss is good for beginners. Very easy to learn cause its similar to a lot of other races in other RTS games. But Protoss on the pro level is as hard as terran and zerg because you have to be creative and need excellent macro and micro to compete.
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On January 04 2009 22:14 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:
Anyone ever considered the _fact_ Protoss is the race requiring most strategy and gamesense? If I would argue in the way all the "1a2a3a blabla" whiners do, I'd say Terran is the easiest race followed by Zerg. When do you see other than Protoss adapt to their opponnents play? Or should I say HAVE to adapt?
I would never say that but with the bunch of cryfags in this thread you just have to face what you're actually trying to imply. Arguing same way again it would be, "Terran sits base, macroes, maybe you see some proxyfac gayness in some games" or "Zerg doing stupid 2 hatch muta lameness every game, greeding for 3rd gas to get imbalisks". Sounds retarded? Now imagine thats the way you sound.
€: Oh and if so Protoss uses the most perfect builds I guess the other races should do that too instead of crying like little girls. There's no manliness in Zerg or Terran players?
oh god i hope your kidding about only toss has to adapt.
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The reason I don't play Protoss is because of how easy it is to learn and play it compared to other races. However, at the progamer level, I think Protoss is as difficult to master as the other races.
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Protoss has easier mechanics, most people are reffering to lower levels methodman/misuzu, they aren't crying and ranting about there race because they play it, even protoss players in this thread have said it's easier, but it doesn't mean they don't play it (they like the lore, which i do, or they enjoy the matchups) and either way as they get better, it get's harder, but they understand that it's a slightly easier start for protoss.. and what the fuck? protoss only one who has to adapt? Your mechanics are easier so that means your game sense is instantly harder? It's the same as zerg or terran, bar pvz, which takes alot.
Some people can't accept the fact that protoss is the easiest to learn, and people are saying that as in: 2 equal players play eachother, at lower levels, protoss would win 75% of time, no arguing that.
However at higher levels, i honestly think they have been the hardest and still are, but right now the protoss bar at the progaming level has risen, and zerg or terran aren't out of tricks yet.
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Glad to have the same opinion as the mass, at once.
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psi storm.
can i click 1 ability to kill an army pls
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Why 11% of the people voted zerg and terran?
Biased okay dont care, but its a fact protoss is just alot easyer to play in FOREIGNER level.
Mb top A/A+ iccup level its different but I dont think thats what this poll is about.
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On January 04 2009 22:14 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:
Anyone ever considered the _fact_ Protoss is the race requiring most strategy and gamesense? If I would argue in the way all the "1a2a3a blabla" whiners do, I'd say Terran is the easiest race followed by Zerg. When do you see other than Protoss adapt to their opponnents play? Or should I say HAVE to adapt?
I would never say that but with the bunch of cryfags in this thread you just have to face what you're actually trying to imply. Arguing same way again it would be, "Terran sits base, macroes, maybe you see some proxyfac gayness in some games" or "Zerg doing stupid 2 hatch muta lameness every game, greeding for 3rd gas to get imbalisks". Sounds retarded? Now imagine thats the way you sound.
€: Oh and if so Protoss uses the most perfect builds I guess the other races should do that too instead of crying like little girls. There's no manliness in Zerg or Terran players?
For some reason i'm pretty sure that terran can't 1a2a3a.
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On January 04 2009 22:48 mIsUZu wrote:
lawl this is like terrans saying 'oh look 6 dragons.. p imbal.. oh 1a2a3a p is easiest'..
ya how much does it cost to get vultures?? 75?? WOW LESS THAN ZEAL!!
and how much is a mine upgrade?? WHAT?!?!? LESS THAN A ZEAL LEGUP!?!?!?
so who wins with good micro vulture vs zeal?? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ZOMG!!!!
on top of this, whats this?? siegemode with longest attack range that cancels all defence towers and bunker + repair thats almost beyond imbal that its not funny???
and don't give me this 'low level, high level' nonsense cause as far as i know, we've had 3 terran bonjwas, and 1 zrg bonjwa in this game who have all been dominating at their times to the point that made them look unbeatable..
wait was that 3 terrans and 1 zerg?? uhmmmmmmmmmm so wheres protoss??
until bisu reigned to fame, protoss was just a race to be toyed around by zerg and good showbiz to make terrans look almighty and now, finally, they get some spotlights and all of sudden tosses are imbal..
HOW MANY BASES DOES TOSS HAVE IN COMPARISON WITH TERRAN?? ZOMG! how many gateways does protoss have incomparison with terran? ZOMG! -_-;;
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On January 05 2009 01:04 b3h47pte wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 22:14 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:
Anyone ever considered the _fact_ Protoss is the race requiring most strategy and gamesense? If I would argue in the way all the "1a2a3a blabla" whiners do, I'd say Terran is the easiest race followed by Zerg. When do you see other than Protoss adapt to their opponnents play? Or should I say HAVE to adapt?
I would never say that but with the bunch of cryfags in this thread you just have to face what you're actually trying to imply. Arguing same way again it would be, "Terran sits base, macroes, maybe you see some proxyfac gayness in some games" or "Zerg doing stupid 2 hatch muta lameness every game, greeding for 3rd gas to get imbalisks". Sounds retarded? Now imagine thats the way you sound.
€: Oh and if so Protoss uses the most perfect builds I guess the other races should do that too instead of crying like little girls. There's no manliness in Zerg or Terran players? For some reason i'm pretty sure that terran can't 1a2a3a.
have you seen tvz at all lately? (referring to gols here)
+ Show Spoiler +anyone watch bisu vs flash today? how in the world was that game easy for bisu. Terran had vulture, goliath tank and vessel vs zealot dragoon, high temp, dark temp, arbiter, shuttle and reaver for that bulldog push. notice how protoss have so many different units to control? Also protoss has to macro a lot more to stay ahead in the food count than terran.
anyways im not saying T is easier or vice versa, I think that P has to use more tactics to stop a terran from hard or soft pushing by doing things like reaver, recall, dt or storm drops.
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[DUF]MethodMan and mIsUZu you sound like angry kids. Go back to 0xDEADBEEF's post and its a very easy explanation why this is true, and you really can't argue with it. You don't have to get mad about it just cause you play protoss, just means you can play better T/Z players for a more challenging game. At the same skill level though it certainly is easier.
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On January 05 2009 02:19 CorSairHeRo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 01:04 b3h47pte wrote:On January 04 2009 22:14 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:
Anyone ever considered the _fact_ Protoss is the race requiring most strategy and gamesense? If I would argue in the way all the "1a2a3a blabla" whiners do, I'd say Terran is the easiest race followed by Zerg. When do you see other than Protoss adapt to their opponnents play? Or should I say HAVE to adapt?
I would never say that but with the bunch of cryfags in this thread you just have to face what you're actually trying to imply. Arguing same way again it would be, "Terran sits base, macroes, maybe you see some proxyfac gayness in some games" or "Zerg doing stupid 2 hatch muta lameness every game, greeding for 3rd gas to get imbalisks". Sounds retarded? Now imagine thats the way you sound.
€: Oh and if so Protoss uses the most perfect builds I guess the other races should do that too instead of crying like little girls. There's no manliness in Zerg or Terran players? For some reason i'm pretty sure that terran can't 1a2a3a. have you seen tvz at all lately? (referring to gols here) + Show Spoiler +anyone watch bisu vs flash today? how in the world was that game easy for bisu. Terran had vulture, goliath tank and vessel vs zealot dragoon, high temp, dark temp, arbiter, shuttle and reaver for that bulldog push. notice how protoss have so many different units to control? Also protoss has to macro a lot more to stay ahead in the food count than terran. anyways im not saying T is easier or vice versa, I think that P has to use more tactics to stop a terran from hard or soft pushing by doing things like reaver, recall, dt or storm drops.
Yeh.. i seriously, SERIOUSLY think people mean the foreign level more.. people know how hard P is at progaming level.
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protoss. But its only in lower levels. In supergosu level they are supposed to be just as hard.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
This thread is tempting me to switch to protoss.
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On January 04 2009 21:39 TheFlashyOne wrote:
Protoss is not only the easiest at lower levels...but the same logic applies at the highest levels. their HP is still high, the groupings are still easier, the mechanics are still easier. The idea that all progaming matchups are intense therefore protoss control must be as hard as Terran or Zerg is not valid. At pro level the gap might be somewhat narrower but Toss is still by far the easiest to play because the millions of reasons that make them easy do not disappear with intensity.
i'd say T is by far the hardest at lower levels.. and Z is the hardest at the highest level...but by a very small margin over T. ZvP when dealing with TOSS FE and all their explosive damage + storm...and ZvT vs things like SK terran and near flawless FE Terran mechanics (which seems to limit the Z to 3 bases midgame) is extremely hard for Z. People like Jeadong and savior deserve lots of respect.
Amen
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On January 05 2009 02:43 infinity2k9 wrote:
[DUF]MethodMan and mIsUZu you sound like angry kids. Go back to 0xDEADBEEF's post and its a very easy explanation why this is true, and you really can't argue with it. You don't have to get mad about it just cause you play protoss, just means you can play better T/Z players for a more challenging game. At the same skill level though it certainly is easier.
i think a lot of this depends on how you define skill level and what skill level you are referring to. For example, as a 150 apm protoss i consistently beat zergs and terrans with 200-250 apm. These guys are all faster then me, are they therefore better players and im beating them because my race is easier? That would seem to be what most of you are implying, but at least in my case when i am winning these games its because most of these players to me are predictable and easy to read, and i can beat them by analyzing what they do and adapting to it. However, I find that when i play an opponent who is clever and who i cant predict and counter, i will lose most of the time because my mechanics are just not as strong.
Also i would like to add 2 more things, first of all to all those people who are saying protoss is easy because you can just 1a2a3a and terrans and zergs require more control, while this is certainly true, i dont see too many people mentioning the fact that once a t/z, especially T, learns how to control their army, it becomes more cost effective then a protoss army and the P either has to babysit his army just as much or outmacro the other player in order to win battles.
Secondly to all those guys who are saying "LAWL IM A C ZERG I CAN GET C- WITH P SO EZ LOLOL" i just wanna let you guys know that as a P player its the same for me and i can offrace just as easily to almost the same rank. Especially with zvp/tvp, i think if i were to play against myself, my z or my t would definetly give my P a run for its money
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Wouldn't it mean that terran is imbalanced if they have to set up mines, turrents, siege tanks, position perfectly in TvP. Whereas a protoss just has to 1a2a3a. We all no pro's micro is perfect and that is what usually tips the games. Doesn't seem like a pro protoss player has that much he can do micro wise vs a terran other then 1a2a3a.
So in a large battle in TvP on low - mid level where the protoss is just 1a2a3a rolling the terran, and the terran isn't microing that well its imba. But on the high levels when terran is microing PERFECTLY, and protoss is also microing there 1a2a3a PERFECTLY just as at low levels, and they get rolled isn't that imbalanced?
O yea and I decided to switch to terran because of this thread too see what the fuck is so hard about this noob bitchy race, I guess it could be because there are no men that play terran, only whiny girls.
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On January 05 2009 04:02 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
O yea and I decided to switch to terran because of this thread too see what the fuck is so hard about this noob bitchy race, I guess it could be because there are no men that play terran, only whiny girls.
It isn't hard playing Terran.
With Terran I can beat any Protoss player easily with 7 8 Barracks. But not the other way around with proxy Gateways.
Bunker imba.
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On January 05 2009 04:38 Freezard wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 04:02 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
O yea and I decided to switch to terran because of this thread too see what the fuck is so hard about this noob bitchy race, I guess it could be because there are no men that play terran, only whiny girls. It isn't hard playing Terran. With Terran I can beat any Protoss player easily with 7 8 Barracks. But not the other way around with proxy Gateways. Bunker imba.
Yea i know what you mean, I CANNOT CHEESE WITH PROTOSS. It never works for me but then again I never practiced it. On the other hand I can easily cheese with zerg and terran with no practice.
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Terran is probably the hardest race for a beginner.
You have to go trough so much pain learning terran from scratch and even if you reach a certain level you can fuck up everything in seconds or waste minutes over minutes even tough there is no chance of coming back.
Uphill battles and frustration. That should be the sign when you choose terran as your first race.
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On January 05 2009 04:44 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 04:38 Freezard wrote:On January 05 2009 04:02 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
O yea and I decided to switch to terran because of this thread too see what the fuck is so hard about this noob bitchy race, I guess it could be because there are no men that play terran, only whiny girls. It isn't hard playing Terran. With Terran I can beat any Protoss player easily with 7 8 Barracks. But not the other way around with proxy Gateways. Bunker imba. Yea i know what you mean, I CANNOT CHEESE WITH PROTOSS. It never works for me but then again I never practiced it. On the other hand I can easily cheese with zerg and terran with no practice.
lol
cheese is much easier for protoss are you kidding?
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
Nah the ability to warp in multiple buildings far away from your base is useless in cheese.
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On January 05 2009 05:53 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 04:44 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:On January 05 2009 04:38 Freezard wrote:On January 05 2009 04:02 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
O yea and I decided to switch to terran because of this thread too see what the fuck is so hard about this noob bitchy race, I guess it could be because there are no men that play terran, only whiny girls. It isn't hard playing Terran. With Terran I can beat any Protoss player easily with 7 8 Barracks. But not the other way around with proxy Gateways. Bunker imba. Yea i know what you mean, I CANNOT CHEESE WITH PROTOSS. It never works for me but then again I never practiced it. On the other hand I can easily cheese with zerg and terran with no practice. lol cheese is much easier for protoss are you kidding?
i just had to laugh at this.
you've GOT TO BE KIDDING.
2 gate ? if i don't wall, it's pretty much over. and this is the reason why i ALWAYS wall in iccup games.
dt drop? dt's do 40 damage and they're cloaked ffs. you call that FAIR? rofl
and also reaver, in an instance, my supply or scvs could be gone. terran has so much to prepare for the early game and toss has it easy. not to mention terran is so hard because they're not mobile at all. protoss can like run across the map and it's scary.
i used to be protoss and i'd be confused about how terrans always bitched about p and now i totally understand (now a T player)
also late game, arbiters are so unfair imo.
you might tell me to use vessels but emp radius is so short and by the time protoss gets 2 or more arbs, it's pretty much gg for me. Why? STASIS. and if i want to avoid least amount of stasis as possible, i have to spread my tanks. that again, is micro intensive and i also have to keep up with my macro at that point. not to mention i would also need to mine up, set up turrets, etc.
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On January 05 2009 06:01 clazziquai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 05:53 fusionsdf wrote:On January 05 2009 04:44 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:On January 05 2009 04:38 Freezard wrote:On January 05 2009 04:02 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
O yea and I decided to switch to terran because of this thread too see what the fuck is so hard about this noob bitchy race, I guess it could be because there are no men that play terran, only whiny girls. It isn't hard playing Terran. With Terran I can beat any Protoss player easily with 7 8 Barracks. But not the other way around with proxy Gateways. Bunker imba. Yea i know what you mean, I CANNOT CHEESE WITH PROTOSS. It never works for me but then again I never practiced it. On the other hand I can easily cheese with zerg and terran with no practice. lol cheese is much easier for protoss are you kidding? i just had to laugh at this. you've GOT TO BE KIDDING. 2 gate ? if i don't wall, it's pretty much over. and this is the reason why i ALWAYS wall in iccup games. dt drop? dt's do 40 damage and they're cloaked ffs. you call that FAIR? rofl and also reaver, in an instance, my supply or scvs could be gone. terran has so much to prepare for the early game and toss has it easy. not to mention terran is so hard because they're not mobile at all. protoss can like run across the map and it's scary. i used to be protoss and i'd be confused about how terrans always bitched about p and now i totally understand (now a T player) also late game, arbiters are so unfair imo. you might tell me to use vessels but emp radius is so short and by the time protoss gets 2 or more arbs, it's pretty much gg for me. Why? STASIS. and if i want to avoid least amount of stasis as possible, i have to spread my tanks. that again, is micro intensive and i also have to keep up with my macro at that point. not to mention i would also need to mine up, set up turrets, etc.
In stratagy thread you always see protoss players asking how top stop zerg cheese, and the answer is SCOUT. You terrans don't even need to make any fair attemp at scouting in PvZ you have to dance your probes around speed lings early on too see what zerg is doing. But you terrans just need to float your fucking buildings into protoss base OR SCANNNNNN.
What happens when you do scout reaver or dt drop? GG make an e-bay.
YOU CALL VULTURES FAIR? 75 minerals and you get a machine that rapes probes and zealots. You also get 3 mines that hide in the ground (Great for scouting) then explode when you walk on them causing mass damage and even splash damage. IMBAAAA
OH my god a terran bitching about spreading his units only during late game and only vs statis on arbs. It's not like protoss has to spread there units vs tank splash noooooo we just 1a2a3a and its over.
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i've read terran is hardest at the lower levels, and z is harder at the higher levels
and lol @ the poll...
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Hum odd usually the polls when we do this why is blank race so ez it more evened out. This time it's just lul
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There's got to be some protoss players here who revolve their life around starcraft.
This poll invalidates your life!
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I can't believe people still argue against the fact that, for the majority of people, Protoss is the easiest race to learn and play.
This doesn't mean they are the best race or that playing protoss requires no skill/strategy at all (obviously needed at higher levels) so I don't know why so many people are upset.
When I first started out, I tried all 3 races and eventually used Protoss exclusively because:
1) Probe's ability to build buildings without pause.
2) Protoss units have a lot more HP and therefore were a lot more forgiving.
3) Protoss usually doesn't have as many units as Terrans/Zergs (well, mostly zerg in this aspect) and therefore were easier to manage.
4) The army compositions for Protoss are all very similar. You can never go wrong with zealots+goons.
5) When you're first starting out, beside storms, you really just 1a2a3a4a when you attack.
6) 1+2+3+4+5 makes for easy micro/macro when compared to Terran and Zerg
7) 1+2+3+4+5+6 means that you can get away with a low APM (which I have of course).
Also...
To me, Protoss build orders seems easy to learn/copy when compared to that of Terran and Zerg.
There's more but I'll just leave it at that.
hmmm, love the poll.
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1a2a3a4a 5t 8p9p0p gg
The joke lives on.
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On January 05 2009 07:03 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 06:01 clazziquai wrote:On January 05 2009 05:53 fusionsdf wrote:On January 05 2009 04:44 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:On January 05 2009 04:38 Freezard wrote:On January 05 2009 04:02 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
O yea and I decided to switch to terran because of this thread too see what the fuck is so hard about this noob bitchy race, I guess it could be because there are no men that play terran, only whiny girls. It isn't hard playing Terran. With Terran I can beat any Protoss player easily with 7 8 Barracks. But not the other way around with proxy Gateways. Bunker imba. Yea i know what you mean, I CANNOT CHEESE WITH PROTOSS. It never works for me but then again I never practiced it. On the other hand I can easily cheese with zerg and terran with no practice. lol cheese is much easier for protoss are you kidding? i just had to laugh at this. you've GOT TO BE KIDDING. 2 gate ? if i don't wall, it's pretty much over. and this is the reason why i ALWAYS wall in iccup games. dt drop? dt's do 40 damage and they're cloaked ffs. you call that FAIR? rofl and also reaver, in an instance, my supply or scvs could be gone. terran has so much to prepare for the early game and toss has it easy. not to mention terran is so hard because they're not mobile at all. protoss can like run across the map and it's scary. i used to be protoss and i'd be confused about how terrans always bitched about p and now i totally understand (now a T player) also late game, arbiters are so unfair imo. you might tell me to use vessels but emp radius is so short and by the time protoss gets 2 or more arbs, it's pretty much gg for me. Why? STASIS. and if i want to avoid least amount of stasis as possible, i have to spread my tanks. that again, is micro intensive and i also have to keep up with my macro at that point. not to mention i would also need to mine up, set up turrets, etc. In stratagy thread you always see protoss players asking how top stop zerg cheese, and the answer is SCOUT. You terrans don't even need to make any fair attemp at scouting in PvZ you have to dance your probes around speed lings early on too see what zerg is doing. But you terrans just need to float your fucking buildings into protoss base OR SCANNNNNN. What happens when you do scout reaver or dt drop? GG make an e-bay. YOU CALL VULTURES FAIR? 75 minerals and you get a machine that rapes probes and zealots. You also get 3 mines that hide in the ground (Great for scouting) then explode when you walk on them causing mass damage and even splash damage. IMBAAAA OH my god a terran bitching about spreading his units only during late game and only vs statis on arbs. It's not like protoss has to spread there units vs tank splash noooooo we just 1a2a3a and its over.
vultures are unfair to you because they can kill probes easy? sure. maybe that's your fault you don't build CANNONS. which leads me to terran expos. it's hard as hell to defend on maps like python. it's not our fault we dont have any good static defense (THAT ATTACKS BOTH AIR/GROUND).
mines rarely do much damage, as long as you have observers all over the map. i play pvt for masami and he does that and i find NO trouble with mines since my observers are basically like maphack. i see when the terran expos-> i attack, pretty easy.
dont even bring pvz into this, you probably just don't even know how to scout.
and lifting buildings like barracks over to another protoss base would only work if (on python), our bases were 12/3 and 6/9. e-bay outside theirr base and lifting sometimes works, but not if you're playing a good protoss.
don't even dare argue that protoss in a bit in the lower levels is "hard". look at the poll, statistics prove a lot.
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Yea lets keep mentioning "high level" "low level" because I'm pretty sure every progamer once or more has said terran is the biggest imbal race.. which basically means in their level (ie. the high level) its the easiest race to use to win..
TvP is hard, pufff... Go watch some OOV vods.. or Nada.. Or Boxer's back in their prime..
The fact is, every race is hard at some point but just terrans feel they need to have rugged mu like tvz applied on tvp as well but they don't, hence they feel protoss is easy :p
Yes I feel sorry for zergs because zvt is just not right, something is seriously required to fix this but as for zvp, it was ok until the 6dragons showed up and is reasonable as lux/july/jd/calm does good job of it.
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sorry i'm not oov.
i played protoss and found it pretty easy until C level
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I can't believe people are bitching so much about "insert race" imba this imba that
Whenever I play on iCCup, I don't give a shit about what everyone else supposedly call "imbalances". I lose because I'm the worse player. I lose because I didn't play my best and I managed to make mistakes. Not some stupid "imbalance" or weakness in my race. These things are inherently in each race and bitching about it does nothing to change it. The only thing you can do it play to get better so that you can abuse your own "imbalances" and negate your opponent's. That's why I don't come out of a game and complain about such and such, I realize that I was the one that made a mistake.
A la BoxeR's mindset, the only opponent is yourself. If you lose, it's not because the guy on the other side of the map beat you, it's because you let yourself down.
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Protoss is best, they are the coolest and have the pimpest shit and do all the pimpest moves
zerg are just icky and gooey like chill's armpits eww
terran are dumb rednecks and probably gay too, not cool at all dude
Why I play protoss.
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I play protoss and I admit that the reason I play protoss is because it's the easiest at lower levels.
Terran requires much more multi-tasking and zerg requires much more game sense.
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The top progamers from all 3 races on average have ~200 EAPM (this excludes spam).
At the low levels, you will lose to someone who plays better than you, regardless of their race.
Each of the 3 races have things that make them harder to play and things that make them easier to play. It's ridiculous to claim that any one race is easier than the others. Easier how? To win? Why don't you see nothing but Protoss winning every game? Easier mechanics? The best players don't complain about the number of hotkeys they need, and all 3 races give you something to do at all times.
When someone's learning a game, a lot of times (I'm speaking from fighting game experience here) when he has trouble figuring out how to beat something, he claims it's overpowered and goes looking for tier lists or some other evidence to justify how unfair the matchup is. When you're new, your bad, and you will lose. Don't go changing characters (races) thinking that you'll automatically be better. You may start getting easier wins, but in the long run, you end up playing something that doesn't suit your style and you never truly improve yourself in the way that you could by sticking with your style and learning to overcome your weaknesses, not run away from them.
Honestly, that's a life lesson right there. If you're trying to hide from your weaknesses by staying in your strengths, you'll stunt your growth as a person, and you will never become anything great. Life is about dealing with obstacles and overcoming them.
All 3 races are hard, all 3 races are fun, all 3 races have their advantages and disadvantages, their ups and downs. Play what you like best, play to learn, play to win, and play to have fun.
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Today I was on iccup where I almost always lose as my main race (Terran).
I played a PvT, did a sick reaver drop, macroed off 3 base until i had 100 supply goons. Then I attack moved into his base and won.
This was a D+ terran mind you.
Then I played a TvP against a D- protoss and lost.
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On January 05 2009 09:08 Muey wrote:
Protoss is best, they are the coolest and have the pimpest shit and do all the pimpest moves
zerg are just icky and gooey like chill's armpits eww
terran are dumb rednecks and probably gay too, not cool at all dude
Why I play protoss.
wow you're an incredible poster.
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I'm a terran player, but I'll admit that Zerg requires most Game Sense just because zerg has the most decisions to make the entire game.
While Terrans and Protoss players use Worker-cutting on special occasions, the only way Zerg get's any army is to cut workers, and the only way to get workers is to cut army.
That is a big deal right there.
On the other hand, I'd say terran is the most multitask demanding, simply because their units require attention to be worthwile.
1 vulture vs 1 zealot without any micro? Laughable, easy job for Zealot.
Make it 2 vultures vs 1 zealot without any micro, my guess is zealot still wins.
The same principle applies to basically any terran unit.
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On January 05 2009 08:34 clazziquai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 07:03 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:On January 05 2009 06:01 clazziquai wrote:On January 05 2009 05:53 fusionsdf wrote:On January 05 2009 04:44 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:On January 05 2009 04:38 Freezard wrote:On January 05 2009 04:02 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
O yea and I decided to switch to terran because of this thread too see what the fuck is so hard about this noob bitchy race, I guess it could be because there are no men that play terran, only whiny girls. It isn't hard playing Terran. With Terran I can beat any Protoss player easily with 7 8 Barracks. But not the other way around with proxy Gateways. Bunker imba. Yea i know what you mean, I CANNOT CHEESE WITH PROTOSS. It never works for me but then again I never practiced it. On the other hand I can easily cheese with zerg and terran with no practice. lol cheese is much easier for protoss are you kidding? i just had to laugh at this. you've GOT TO BE KIDDING. 2 gate ? if i don't wall, it's pretty much over. and this is the reason why i ALWAYS wall in iccup games. dt drop? dt's do 40 damage and they're cloaked ffs. you call that FAIR? rofl and also reaver, in an instance, my supply or scvs could be gone. terran has so much to prepare for the early game and toss has it easy. not to mention terran is so hard because they're not mobile at all. protoss can like run across the map and it's scary. i used to be protoss and i'd be confused about how terrans always bitched about p and now i totally understand (now a T player) also late game, arbiters are so unfair imo. you might tell me to use vessels but emp radius is so short and by the time protoss gets 2 or more arbs, it's pretty much gg for me. Why? STASIS. and if i want to avoid least amount of stasis as possible, i have to spread my tanks. that again, is micro intensive and i also have to keep up with my macro at that point. not to mention i would also need to mine up, set up turrets, etc. In stratagy thread you always see protoss players asking how top stop zerg cheese, and the answer is SCOUT. You terrans don't even need to make any fair attemp at scouting in PvZ you have to dance your probes around speed lings early on too see what zerg is doing. But you terrans just need to float your fucking buildings into protoss base OR SCANNNNNN. What happens when you do scout reaver or dt drop? GG make an e-bay. YOU CALL VULTURES FAIR? 75 minerals and you get a machine that rapes probes and zealots. You also get 3 mines that hide in the ground (Great for scouting) then explode when you walk on them causing mass damage and even splash damage. IMBAAAA OH my god a terran bitching about spreading his units only during late game and only vs statis on arbs. It's not like protoss has to spread there units vs tank splash noooooo we just 1a2a3a and its over. vultures are unfair to you because they can kill probes easy? sure. maybe that's your fault you don't build CANNONS. which leads me to terran expos. it's hard as hell to defend on maps like python. it's not our fault we dont have any good static defense (THAT ATTACKS BOTH AIR/GROUND). mines rarely do much damage, as long as you have observers all over the map. i play pvt for masami and he does that and i find NO trouble with mines since my observers are basically like maphack. i see when the terran expos-> i attack, pretty easy. dont even bring pvz into this, you probably just don't even know how to scout. and lifting buildings like barracks over to another protoss base would only work if (on python), our bases were 12/3 and 6/9. e-bay outside theirr base and lifting sometimes works, but not if you're playing a good protoss. don't even dare argue that protoss in a bit in the lower levels is "hard". look at the poll, statistics prove a lot.
This reply made me laugh fairly hard. You could say "your just bad" for any argument here. (here goes my attemp at it) The reason why you think protoss is easy, is just because you lose vs protoss and your not only a noob but a bad loser.
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On January 05 2009 09:34 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 09:08 Muey wrote:
Protoss is best, they are the coolest and have the pimpest shit and do all the pimpest moves
zerg are just icky and gooey like chill's armpits eww
terran are dumb rednecks and probably gay too, not cool at all dude
Why I play protoss. wow you're an incredible poster.
Why thank you, I think so too!
This thread is just so incredible I that I just couldn't let go the chance to grace it with a bit of my equally incredible posting!
I guess I could post about how my incredible D+ toss A-move skills net me awesome wins at the D level when 2facting offrace TvP instead, but that'd actually just shit the thread further up.
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United States3824 Posts
I think the answer involves some numbers and the letter "a."
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What you terrans forget is with those additional micros you get additional imbals.
So theoratically when you get really advanced, say B++ level ish on icc, Terrans are much more likely going to enjoy exploiting all these micro bonuses that protosses can not and have to just deal with it.
Ya attack move zeals goons are nice but mine everywhere then siege trenching and then just watching protoss get creamed as they blindly charge is another thing.
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On January 05 2009 09:53 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 08:34 clazziquai wrote:On January 05 2009 07:03 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:On January 05 2009 06:01 clazziquai wrote:On January 05 2009 05:53 fusionsdf wrote:On January 05 2009 04:44 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:On January 05 2009 04:38 Freezard wrote:On January 05 2009 04:02 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
O yea and I decided to switch to terran because of this thread too see what the fuck is so hard about this noob bitchy race, I guess it could be because there are no men that play terran, only whiny girls. It isn't hard playing Terran. With Terran I can beat any Protoss player easily with 7 8 Barracks. But not the other way around with proxy Gateways. Bunker imba. Yea i know what you mean, I CANNOT CHEESE WITH PROTOSS. It never works for me but then again I never practiced it. On the other hand I can easily cheese with zerg and terran with no practice. lol cheese is much easier for protoss are you kidding? i just had to laugh at this. you've GOT TO BE KIDDING. 2 gate ? if i don't wall, it's pretty much over. and this is the reason why i ALWAYS wall in iccup games. dt drop? dt's do 40 damage and they're cloaked ffs. you call that FAIR? rofl and also reaver, in an instance, my supply or scvs could be gone. terran has so much to prepare for the early game and toss has it easy. not to mention terran is so hard because they're not mobile at all. protoss can like run across the map and it's scary. i used to be protoss and i'd be confused about how terrans always bitched about p and now i totally understand (now a T player) also late game, arbiters are so unfair imo. you might tell me to use vessels but emp radius is so short and by the time protoss gets 2 or more arbs, it's pretty much gg for me. Why? STASIS. and if i want to avoid least amount of stasis as possible, i have to spread my tanks. that again, is micro intensive and i also have to keep up with my macro at that point. not to mention i would also need to mine up, set up turrets, etc. In stratagy thread you always see protoss players asking how top stop zerg cheese, and the answer is SCOUT. You terrans don't even need to make any fair attemp at scouting in PvZ you have to dance your probes around speed lings early on too see what zerg is doing. But you terrans just need to float your fucking buildings into protoss base OR SCANNNNNN. What happens when you do scout reaver or dt drop? GG make an e-bay. YOU CALL VULTURES FAIR? 75 minerals and you get a machine that rapes probes and zealots. You also get 3 mines that hide in the ground (Great for scouting) then explode when you walk on them causing mass damage and even splash damage. IMBAAAA OH my god a terran bitching about spreading his units only during late game and only vs statis on arbs. It's not like protoss has to spread there units vs tank splash noooooo we just 1a2a3a and its over. vultures are unfair to you because they can kill probes easy? sure. maybe that's your fault you don't build CANNONS. which leads me to terran expos. it's hard as hell to defend on maps like python. it's not our fault we dont have any good static defense (THAT ATTACKS BOTH AIR/GROUND). mines rarely do much damage, as long as you have observers all over the map. i play pvt for masami and he does that and i find NO trouble with mines since my observers are basically like maphack. i see when the terran expos-> i attack, pretty easy. dont even bring pvz into this, you probably just don't even know how to scout. and lifting buildings like barracks over to another protoss base would only work if (on python), our bases were 12/3 and 6/9. e-bay outside theirr base and lifting sometimes works, but not if you're playing a good protoss. don't even dare argue that protoss in a bit in the lower levels is "hard". look at the poll, statistics prove a lot. This reply made me laugh fairly hard. You could say "your just bad" for any argument here. (here goes my attemp at it) The reason why you think protoss is easy, is just because you lose vs protoss and your not only a noob but a bad loser.
Protoss is easy because I HAVE played Protoss, got to C with it, thus I know the difference between Protoss and Terran. Protoss is just so less demanding.
How am I a bad loser? I still win vs Protoss on ICCUP. In fact my 30-26 record on ICCUP is 99% TvP. Yet I complain. Why? Because Terran requires just so much more, yet that's what makes it fun. I want to challenge myself, but sometimes TvP is just too fucking hard.
I find no fun with Protoss, at all. P = 1a2a3a ezpz
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I'm not even going to argue with you anymore
Poll: Which race is the easiest to play?( Vote): Terran ( Vote): Zerg ( Vote): Protoss
this says it all.
ty!
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zerg is easier than terran. foreigners just dont bother learning to play zerg like koreans.
This thread sucks though. Of course Protoss are the easiest.
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On January 05 2009 09:33 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Today I was on iccup where I almost always lose as my main race (Terran).
I played a PvT, did a sick reaver drop, macroed off 3 base until i had 100 supply goons. Then I attack moved into his base and won.
This was a D+ terran mind you.
Then I played a TvP against a D- protoss and lost.
Maybe you're just really bad at playing Terran. Did you ever think about that? Maybe you just suck altogether!
It's funny how finally Protoss has some good players that are doing well in the leagues and PvZ was changed so that Protoss has a chance now, and then everyone cries and whines. Especially the Zergs. Zergs are the biggest whiners ever.
W/e, I'll continue dropping Reavers in your mineral lines and DT sneaking.
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There aint no taste like the taste of tears from all the "1a2a3a" noobs
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protoss usrs r fags look at intotherainbow, or dumbasses ilke therock........ Reach is just an exception. All the cooolios are all terrans, look at nada, boxer, oov...etc. Terrans like hwasin, are just wannabe manly and trying to fit in with the studs, but he's still a fag.
Gay zealot: GO PRTOOSS>..
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On low levels protoss is easier because the mechanics and strategic concepts are a little more simple than for the other races. It's pointless to bring up specific details beyond this. Either accept that the races are totally unique or play WC2. I agree with this post:
On January 05 2009 09:35 niteReloaded wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I'm a terran player, but I'll admit that Zerg requires most Game Sense just because zerg has the most decisions to make the entire game.
While Terrans and Protoss players use Worker-cutting on special occasions, the only way Zerg get's any army is to cut workers, and the only way to get workers is to cut army.
That is a big deal right there.
On the other hand, I'd say terran is the most multitask demanding, simply because their units require attention to be worthwile.
1 vulture vs 1 zealot without any micro? Laughable, easy job for Zealot.
Make it 2 vultures vs 1 zealot without any micro, my guess is zealot still wins.
The same principle applies to basically any terran unit.
On pro level, easy is the wrong word I think. But it seems like protoss is really the strongest race these days with the modern streamlined playstyle and the way maps are designed. I really wonder if there will ever be a new turn around with another race claiming the top. I doubt it.
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Maybe someone could help me with a problem I am having, EVERTIME I lose its only to a hacking noob. I don't understand why there is SOOOOO many hackers.
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how do u know they hack? is it cause ur bad and lose alot?
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If i lose automatically the opponent must have some unfair advantage over me. Nothing else even comes remotely close to making sense.
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mechanically Protoss is the easiest. strategy wise Zerg is the easiest. Terran is the most adaptable to maps and doesn't get fucked hard in certain map pools which is a big advantage as far as consistancy goes. Terran and Zerg also have units such as the Lurker / Siege tank which you can burrow / siege and leave them forever to do there job. Zerg you can waste a shit load of units as well and still be ok where as Terran / Protoss can't. Terran and Zerg can basically do the same thing every game and be alright as well, Protoss is a more strategically sophisticated race, especially at top foreign / progamer levels where Protoss has to use more ingenious builds to compensate for maps / being directly countered etc... Protoss actually has about the same amount of cheese / all-in builds as Zerg where Terran has very limited cheese / all-in builds which is actually a disadv to Terran. I can go on and on but to say Protoss is the easiest because of the simple fact that Mechanically they are easier is retarded. Protoss has a lot more mind games to play then the other races and if you add all of the things up, each race is unique in its own way, there strengths and weakness' but tbh I think they are all equal which is why I love this game and why its still around 10-11 years after its creation.
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On January 05 2009 10:49 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
If i lose automatically the opponent must have some unfair advantage over me. Nothing else even comes remotely close to making sense.
i laugh at your stupidity.
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Calgary25980 Posts
This is at D foreigner levels. Stupid people keep extrapolating it to top foreigner levels.
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On January 05 2009 10:57 clazziquai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 10:49 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
If i lose automatically the opponent must have some unfair advantage over me. Nothing else even comes remotely close to making sense. i laugh at your stupidity.
I laugh at your stupidity, since you been making shit up this entire thread and the only way to fight your stupidity is with other stupidity since you don't understand anything else.
On January 05 2009 10:58 Chill wrote:
This is at D foreigner levels. Stupid people keep extrapolating it to top foreigner levels.
Ok so lets say that it is "EZ AT LOW LEVELS" and "HARD AT HIGH LEVELS" wouldn't that mean that it balances itself out and overall is not an easy "1a2a3a" race. -2 + 2 = 0?
and nice job on tl-attack
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On January 05 2009 10:58 Chill wrote:
This is at D foreigner levels. Stupid people keep extrapolating it to top foreigner levels.
ya there wouldnt be so many foreign z's and t's dominating if it were really imbalanced
ohwaito_o
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everything i've said is "making shit up"? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
ok ok you're right, i'm wrong. protoss takes skill, i'm sorry~
By the way you're kix06 on MSN right? I've beaten you back in the days when I used to play Protoss (:
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On January 05 2009 10:58 Chill wrote:
This is at D foreigner levels. Stupid people keep extrapolating it to top foreigner levels.
i think protoss might be the easiest race to get decent at.
it also probably requires the lowest apm at foreign level.
maybe thats the reason why most people use protoss on iccup.
and D level isn't decent imo...
to master a race is probably equally hard though.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On January 05 2009 10:59 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 10:58 Chill wrote:
This is at D foreigner levels. Stupid people keep extrapolating it to top foreigner levels. ya there wouldnt be so many foreign z's and t's dominating if it were really imbalanced ohwaito_o
Haha okay thats fair
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On January 05 2009 11:02 clazziquai wrote:
everything i've said is "making shit up"? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
ok ok you're right, i'm wrong. protoss takes skill, i'm sorry~
By the way you're kix06 on MSN right? I've beaten you back in the days when I used to play Protoss (:
Well "1a2a3a" doesn't work in pvp..
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On January 05 2009 11:12 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 11:02 clazziquai wrote:
everything i've said is "making shit up"? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
ok ok you're right, i'm wrong. protoss takes skill, i'm sorry~
By the way you're kix06 on MSN right? I've beaten you back in the days when I used to play Protoss (: Well "1a2a3a" doesn't work in pvp..
4gate medusa 1a2a3a gg
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There is almost no zerg near the top except Jaedong (he would probably be much better had he focused on Protoss when he started).
holy shit there are so many golden quotes in this thread
Few points I want to throw out
1. Protoss users say PvT is hard at higher levels because they only got to higher levels doing DT rush and 1a2a3a instead of learning mechanics in the first place (salv)
2. Protoss users cry about PvZ zerg all in/cheese simply because it is impossible for a zerg to beat a protoss of equal skill at low level straight up, it is so imbalanced.
3. Join games of protoss users on ICC and switch to protoss, they will kick/leave because they cannot play a matchup that does not give them a definite advantage.
I don't understand the actual post, is it the ability to get wins period or the ability to get wins from straight up 1v1? Honestly protoss is such a fucking cheese race that when a protoss plays straight up against me I consider it cheese simply because there is no way I could have expected it
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United States10774 Posts
On January 05 2009 11:27 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 11:12 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:On January 05 2009 11:02 clazziquai wrote:
everything i've said is "making shit up"? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
ok ok you're right, i'm wrong. protoss takes skill, i'm sorry~
By the way you're kix06 on MSN right? I've beaten you back in the days when I used to play Protoss (: Well "1a2a3a" doesn't work in pvp.. 4gate medusa 1a2a3a gg
1a2a3a
SLASH
gg
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On January 05 2009 11:31 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 11:27 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On January 05 2009 11:12 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:On January 05 2009 11:02 clazziquai wrote:
everything i've said is "making shit up"? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
ok ok you're right, i'm wrong. protoss takes skill, i'm sorry~
By the way you're kix06 on MSN right? I've beaten you back in the days when I used to play Protoss (: Well "1a2a3a" doesn't work in pvp.. 4gate medusa 1a2a3a gg 1a2a3a SLASH gg
is that the sound of a DT? If so, 2gate dt 1a.. gg
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On January 04 2009 07:03 Shadowfury333 wrote:
Mechanics. Protoss can easily hotkey their entire army in any MU, while having spare hotkeys for nexus(es?). Also the fact that a single probe can make an entire base in no time is another factor. Terran and Zerg both have to control units without control groups, and they generally have to micro rather carefully (Terran Siege and Stim Pack, Zerg Mutalisk stack and Lurker Burrow. Protoss has...Dragoon hold position and zealot a-move.)
That's basically why people seem to think that. I probably missed something, but that's the gist of what I've gathered from other posters.
yeah but dont protoss have to deal with temps, arbs, reavers, shuttles, and carriers in battle. I mean actually planting spells with individual units and picking up and taking down units in shuttle, while building scarabs or carrier interceptors? Late game would b hell.
I mean jaedong had said that using a quees was hard bc he had to deal with another unit besides just the defiler, so wouldnt that mean protoss has to magnify that. It doesnt show up as much in apm i would think, but it would in precision decision making.
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well i remember a while ago when i started (98) someone told me: if u start get T,wall and wait then roll out. Then try P, then try Z. When u feel confi with those 3 get back to T and you shall win, Z will give you macro, and P will give you sense of the game"
I started T, was too passive, then took Z. I played a bit from time to time with it for about 4yrs (those were the days of mass hydra vs mass archons )
And then BW came, MMs with em and maelstorm/storm. I found the dark archons so cool that i took P. I still suck, but i still like P because i think it s fun to play. Doesnt matter if i dont even have 50% on iccup, i ll never be a gosu anyways,
PLAY FOR FUN!
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On January 05 2009 11:40 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 11:31 OneOther wrote:On January 05 2009 11:27 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On January 05 2009 11:12 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:On January 05 2009 11:02 clazziquai wrote:
everything i've said is "making shit up"? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
ok ok you're right, i'm wrong. protoss takes skill, i'm sorry~
By the way you're kix06 on MSN right? I've beaten you back in the days when I used to play Protoss (: Well "1a2a3a" doesn't work in pvp.. 4gate medusa 1a2a3a gg 1a2a3a SLASH gg is that the sound of a DT? If so, 2gate dt 1a.. gg
It is funny because to stop dt/reaver all a terran has to do is make an e-bay. Think about it. Heres a quick guide for you. In easy to understand steps.
1. Scout the protoss's tech
2. If you see robo or citidel make turrents
3. If not already get mines
4. Lay the mines down in places where the DT / Shuttle may travel
5. Kill the "cheese" attemp
6. Macro
7. Counter
8. Probably will just have too 1a2a3a since protoss will be weak
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because the well knowed 1a2a3a
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Here's a little insider to tvz for those terrans that thinks p is alla bout 1a2a3a.
1t1a2a3a4a
ZOMG T imbal T easiest T is for noobs
o.O
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On January 05 2009 12:26 mIsUZu wrote:
Here's a little insider to tvz for those terrans that thinks p is alla bout 1a2a3a.
1t1a2a3a4a
ZOMG T imbal T easiest T is for noobs
o.O
Except you need more hotkeys of units and 5 lurkers will completely roll your army in 5 seconds if you don't pay attention
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On January 05 2009 12:29 Azrael1111 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 12:26 mIsUZu wrote:
Here's a little insider to tvz for those terrans that thinks p is alla bout 1a2a3a.
1t1a2a3a4a
ZOMG T imbal T easiest T is for noobs
o.O Except you need more hotkeys of units and 5 lurkers will completely roll your army in 5 seconds if you don't pay attention
wont 5 lurks run over any army if u dont pay attention
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^ lol that's funny.
protoss units are so strong....-.-
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On January 05 2009 12:26 mIsUZu wrote:
Here's a little insider to tvz for those terrans that thinks p is alla bout 1a2a3a.
1t1a2a3a4a
ZOMG T imbal T easiest T is for noobs
o.O
u forgot 2t and 3t bro 
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United States10774 Posts
On January 05 2009 12:29 Azrael1111 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 12:26 mIsUZu wrote:
Here's a little insider to tvz for those terrans that thinks p is alla bout 1a2a3a.
1t1a2a3a4a
ZOMG T imbal T easiest T is for noobs
o.O Except you need more hotkeys of units and 5 lurkers will completely roll your army in 5 seconds if you don't pay attention
and what happens to a protoss army if you 1a2a3a4a to spider mines?
while i agree that protoss is easiest at the low levels (D-/D/D+/C-), this thread is becoming more retarded by each second.
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terran is to my penis as protoss is to your mother
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On January 05 2009 11:06 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 10:59 IdrA wrote:On January 05 2009 10:58 Chill wrote:
This is at D foreigner levels. Stupid people keep extrapolating it to top foreigner levels. ya there wouldnt be so many foreign z's and t's dominating if it were really imbalanced ohwaito_o Haha okay thats fair
Don't fucking tell him that. Greg I love you but you need to cut that shit out. The only reason that there are more top foreign Protoss users than Z or T is because they worked harder at it. It is simply a fluke. If LX choose Terran and practiced equally as hard with his T as he did with his P he would be the same level he is at now. It's all a fluke, don't try to tell us Protoss users that our race is easier because our race worked harder than yours.
Think about how much practice White-Ra, IefNaij, NonY, Cloud, PJ, LX etc... etc... worked on there game and then think about all of the good but not top foreign Terrans and Zergs and tell me they have put in as much practice over such a long period of time and the only reason they aren't as good as the players I mentioned above is because Protoss is easier. So stupid.
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On January 05 2009 12:37 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 12:29 Azrael1111 wrote:On January 05 2009 12:26 mIsUZu wrote:
Here's a little insider to tvz for those terrans that thinks p is alla bout 1a2a3a.
1t1a2a3a4a
ZOMG T imbal T easiest T is for noobs
o.O Except you need more hotkeys of units and 5 lurkers will completely roll your army in 5 seconds if you don't pay attention and what happens to a protoss army if you 1a2a3a4a to spider mines? while i agree that protoss is easiest at the low levels (D-/D/D+/C-), this thread is becoming more retarded by each second.
the speedlots tank them
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Hey, you don't have to lay mines, siege the tanks or burrow your lurkers in the EXACT POSITION.
Just select, move or attack move.
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On January 05 2009 11:28 petzergling wrote:Show nested quote +There is almost no zerg near the top except Jaedong (he would probably be much better had he focused on Protoss when he started). holy shit there are so many golden quotes in this thread Few points I want to throw out 1. Protoss users say PvT is hard at higher levels because they only got to higher levels doing DT rush and 1a2a3a instead of learning mechanics in the first place (salv) 2. Protoss users cry about PvZ zerg all in/cheese simply because it is impossible for a zerg to beat a protoss of equal skill at low level straight up, it is so imbalanced. 3. Join games of protoss users on ICC and switch to protoss, they will kick/leave because they cannot play a matchup that does not give them a definite advantage. I don't understand the actual post, is it the ability to get wins period or the ability to get wins from straight up 1v1? Honestly protoss is such a fucking cheese race that when a protoss plays straight up against me I consider it cheese simply because there is no way I could have expected it
a few points that I wanna throw about this post that was clearly inspired by nerdrage
1. what the fuck is so imba about DT rush? if you dont scout it and you dont prepare for it you will die, just like if i dont scout your 2fac and dont prepare for it i will also die.
2. So wait what your saying here is dt rushing is imba so its gay, but its ok for zerg to cheese?
Even if it is that imbalanced, suck it up princess, its not nearly as imbalanced as zvp used to be for 8 years, payback is a bitch huh?
3. In 70-80 games this season and around the same last season and a few seasons ago this has yet to happen to me.
4. if you got past D+ maybe you wouldnt get cheesed so much. But you probably never will.
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On January 05 2009 12:37 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 12:29 Azrael1111 wrote:On January 05 2009 12:26 mIsUZu wrote:
Here's a little insider to tvz for those terrans that thinks p is alla bout 1a2a3a.
1t1a2a3a4a
ZOMG T imbal T easiest T is for noobs
o.O Except you need more hotkeys of units and 5 lurkers will completely roll your army in 5 seconds if you don't pay attention and what happens to a protoss army if you 1a2a3a4a to spider mines? while i agree that protoss is easiest at the low levels (D-/D/D+/C-), this thread is becoming more retarded by each second.
Terran has to invest far more time and actions into planting a mine field while zerg can simply burrow, so the danger of getting raped by lurkers is greater. Also by the time you react, you'll have lost way much as a terran vs lurkers than a toss vs mines.
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I'm tired of playing PvP on iccup.
it seems that the majority of players in ranks d- to c+ are P players
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On January 05 2009 11:28 petzergling wrote:
1. Protoss users say PvT is hard at higher levels because they only got to higher levels doing DT rush and 1a2a3a instead of learning mechanics in the first place (salv)
Who the fuck are you?
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On January 05 2009 12:45 G5 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 11:06 Chill wrote:On January 05 2009 10:59 IdrA wrote:On January 05 2009 10:58 Chill wrote:
This is at D foreigner levels. Stupid people keep extrapolating it to top foreigner levels. ya there wouldnt be so many foreign z's and t's dominating if it were really imbalanced ohwaito_o Haha okay thats fair Don't fucking tell him that. Greg I love you but you need to cut that shit out. The only reason that there are more top foreign Protoss users than Z or T is because they worked harder at it. It is simply a fluke. If LX choose Terran and practiced equally as hard with his T as he did with his P he would be the same level he is at now. It's all a fluke, don't try to tell us Protoss users that our race is easier because our race worked harder than yours. Think about how much practice White-Ra, IefNaij, NonY, Cloud, PJ, LX etc... etc... worked on there game and then think about all of the good but not top foreign Terrans and Zergs and tell me they have put in as much practice over such a long period of time and the only reason they aren't as good as the players I mentioned above is because Protoss is easier. So stupid.
So an entire race of players just happen to work harder than the other 2 races?
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On January 05 2009 13:20 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 11:28 petzergling wrote:
1. Protoss users say PvT is hard at higher levels because they only got to higher levels doing DT rush and 1a2a3a instead of learning mechanics in the first place (salv)
Who the fuck are you?
LOLOL
man this thread is hilarious
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On January 05 2009 13:22 lgdDante wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 12:45 G5 wrote:On January 05 2009 11:06 Chill wrote:On January 05 2009 10:59 IdrA wrote:On January 05 2009 10:58 Chill wrote:
This is at D foreigner levels. Stupid people keep extrapolating it to top foreigner levels. ya there wouldnt be so many foreign z's and t's dominating if it were really imbalanced ohwaito_o Haha okay thats fair Don't fucking tell him that. Greg I love you but you need to cut that shit out. The only reason that there are more top foreign Protoss users than Z or T is because they worked harder at it. It is simply a fluke. If LX choose Terran and practiced equally as hard with his T as he did with his P he would be the same level he is at now. It's all a fluke, don't try to tell us Protoss users that our race is easier because our race worked harder than yours. Think about how much practice White-Ra, IefNaij, NonY, Cloud, PJ, LX etc... etc... worked on there game and then think about all of the good but not top foreign Terrans and Zergs and tell me they have put in as much practice over such a long period of time and the only reason they aren't as good as the players I mentioned above is because Protoss is easier. So stupid. So an entire race of players just happen to work harder than the other 2 races?
Yea thats an extremely retarded argument
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On January 05 2009 13:26 EleanorRIgby wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 13:22 lgdDante wrote:On January 05 2009 12:45 G5 wrote:On January 05 2009 11:06 Chill wrote:On January 05 2009 10:59 IdrA wrote:On January 05 2009 10:58 Chill wrote:
This is at D foreigner levels. Stupid people keep extrapolating it to top foreigner levels. ya there wouldnt be so many foreign z's and t's dominating if it were really imbalanced ohwaito_o Haha okay thats fair Don't fucking tell him that. Greg I love you but you need to cut that shit out. The only reason that there are more top foreign Protoss users than Z or T is because they worked harder at it. It is simply a fluke. If LX choose Terran and practiced equally as hard with his T as he did with his P he would be the same level he is at now. It's all a fluke, don't try to tell us Protoss users that our race is easier because our race worked harder than yours. Think about how much practice White-Ra, IefNaij, NonY, Cloud, PJ, LX etc... etc... worked on there game and then think about all of the good but not top foreign Terrans and Zergs and tell me they have put in as much practice over such a long period of time and the only reason they aren't as good as the players I mentioned above is because Protoss is easier. So stupid. So an entire race of players just happen to work harder than the other 2 races? Yea thats an extremely retarded argument
He is saying the top foreigners.
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On January 05 2009 13:26 EleanorRIgby wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 13:22 lgdDante wrote:On January 05 2009 12:45 G5 wrote:On January 05 2009 11:06 Chill wrote:On January 05 2009 10:59 IdrA wrote:On January 05 2009 10:58 Chill wrote:
This is at D foreigner levels. Stupid people keep extrapolating it to top foreigner levels. ya there wouldnt be so many foreign z's and t's dominating if it were really imbalanced ohwaito_o Haha okay thats fair Don't fucking tell him that. Greg I love you but you need to cut that shit out. The only reason that there are more top foreign Protoss users than Z or T is because they worked harder at it. It is simply a fluke. If LX choose Terran and practiced equally as hard with his T as he did with his P he would be the same level he is at now. It's all a fluke, don't try to tell us Protoss users that our race is easier because our race worked harder than yours. Think about how much practice White-Ra, IefNaij, NonY, Cloud, PJ, LX etc... etc... worked on there game and then think about all of the good but not top foreign Terrans and Zergs and tell me they have put in as much practice over such a long period of time and the only reason they aren't as good as the players I mentioned above is because Protoss is easier. So stupid. So an entire race of players just happen to work harder than the other 2 races? Yea thats an extremely retarded argument
shut up its all a coincidence...-_-
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On January 05 2009 13:05 daz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 11:28 petzergling wrote:There is almost no zerg near the top except Jaedong (he would probably be much better had he focused on Protoss when he started). holy shit there are so many golden quotes in this thread Few points I want to throw out 1. Protoss users say PvT is hard at higher levels because they only got to higher levels doing DT rush and 1a2a3a instead of learning mechanics in the first place (salv) 2. Protoss users cry about PvZ zerg all in/cheese simply because it is impossible for a zerg to beat a protoss of equal skill at low level straight up, it is so imbalanced. 3. Join games of protoss users on ICC and switch to protoss, they will kick/leave because they cannot play a matchup that does not give them a definite advantage. I don't understand the actual post, is it the ability to get wins period or the ability to get wins from straight up 1v1? Honestly protoss is such a fucking cheese race that when a protoss plays straight up against me I consider it cheese simply because there is no way I could have expected it a few points that I wanna throw about this post that was clearly inspired by nerdrage 1. what the fuck is so imba about DT rush? if you dont scout it and you dont prepare for it you will die, just like if i dont scout your 2fac and dont prepare for it i will also die. 2. So wait what your saying here is dt rushing is imba so its gay, but its ok for zerg to cheese? Even if it is that imbalanced, suck it up princess, its not nearly as imbalanced as zvp used to be for 8 years, payback is a bitch huh? 3. In 70-80 games this season and around the same last season and a few seasons ago this has yet to happen to me. 4. if you got past D+ maybe you wouldnt get cheesed so much. But you probably never will. Meh you sound like a classic DT fanboy.
At least if you don't scout my 2fac you can hope I mismicro, or get lucky with some goon shots, or at least play and do SOMETHING. You can't do squat against DT's if you don't scout it. Nothing. Zilch.
I find it very strange when I play as protoss as a change of pace, I don't even need to scout the terran and I know at least I'll be able to play against whatever he throws at me. Hope he screws it up or I get lucky somewhere. Can't play against Dt's if you don't prepare for em. Can't get lucky against Dt's.
But boy if they get scouted, protoss is in a world of hurt. It's amazing how strong Dt's are with an element of surprise and how incredibly weak they become when scouted.
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United States10774 Posts
On January 05 2009 13:06 skyglow1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 12:37 OneOther wrote:On January 05 2009 12:29 Azrael1111 wrote:On January 05 2009 12:26 mIsUZu wrote:
Here's a little insider to tvz for those terrans that thinks p is alla bout 1a2a3a.
1t1a2a3a4a
ZOMG T imbal T easiest T is for noobs
o.O Except you need more hotkeys of units and 5 lurkers will completely roll your army in 5 seconds if you don't pay attention and what happens to a protoss army if you 1a2a3a4a to spider mines? while i agree that protoss is easiest at the low levels (D-/D/D+/C-), this thread is becoming more retarded by each second. Terran has to invest far more time and actions into planting a mine field while zerg can simply burrow, so the danger of getting raped by lurkers is greater. Also by the time you react, you'll have lost way much as a terran vs lurkers than a toss vs mines.
I personally think laying mines is just as easy as burrowing...
And how can you simply assume that you will lose more vs lurkers than vs mines? it's all situational and dependent.
anyways i am getting myself out of this thread
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On January 05 2009 13:33 LuckyFool wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 13:05 daz wrote:On January 05 2009 11:28 petzergling wrote:There is almost no zerg near the top except Jaedong (he would probably be much better had he focused on Protoss when he started). holy shit there are so many golden quotes in this thread Few points I want to throw out 1. Protoss users say PvT is hard at higher levels because they only got to higher levels doing DT rush and 1a2a3a instead of learning mechanics in the first place (salv) 2. Protoss users cry about PvZ zerg all in/cheese simply because it is impossible for a zerg to beat a protoss of equal skill at low level straight up, it is so imbalanced. 3. Join games of protoss users on ICC and switch to protoss, they will kick/leave because they cannot play a matchup that does not give them a definite advantage. I don't understand the actual post, is it the ability to get wins period or the ability to get wins from straight up 1v1? Honestly protoss is such a fucking cheese race that when a protoss plays straight up against me I consider it cheese simply because there is no way I could have expected it a few points that I wanna throw about this post that was clearly inspired by nerdrage 1. what the fuck is so imba about DT rush? if you dont scout it and you dont prepare for it you will die, just like if i dont scout your 2fac and dont prepare for it i will also die. 2. So wait what your saying here is dt rushing is imba so its gay, but its ok for zerg to cheese? Even if it is that imbalanced, suck it up princess, its not nearly as imbalanced as zvp used to be for 8 years, payback is a bitch huh? 3. In 70-80 games this season and around the same last season and a few seasons ago this has yet to happen to me. 4. if you got past D+ maybe you wouldnt get cheesed so much. But you probably never will. Meh you sound like a classic DT fanboy. At least if you don't scout my 2fac you can hope I mismicro, or get lucky with some goon shots, or at least play and do SOMETHING. You can't do squat against DT's if you don't scout it. Nothing. Zilch. I find it very strange when I play as protoss as a change of pace, I don't even need to scout the terran and I know at least I'll be able to play against whatever he throws at me. Hope he screws it up or I get lucky somewhere. Can't play against Dt's if you don't prepare for em. Can't get lucky against Dt's. But boy if they get scouted, protoss is in a world of hurt. It's amazing how strong Dt's are with an element of surprise and how incredibly weak they become when scouted.
i dont know what kind of garbage terrans your playing against that you dont need to scout and that mismicro 2facs
and im not ashamed to admit i AM a DT fanboy. i love those little ninjas
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It should be defined what's trying to be proven here. All decent Protoss and the very good ones seems to all agree that Protoss is easier at an early level and is alluring to newbs (build your entire base with a probe, less units to handle etc.).
Is it trying to be proven that Protoss is easier all around? Some people seem to be arguing that it's easier early level, when in fact, no Protoss are really disputing that.
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On January 05 2009 13:38 Salv wrote:
It should be defined what's trying to be proven here. All decent Protoss and the very good ones seems to all agree that Protoss is easier at an early level and is alluring to newbs (build your entire base with a probe, less units to handle etc.).
Is it trying to be proven that Protoss is easier all around? Some people seem to be arguing that it's easier early level, when in fact, no Protoss are really disputing that.
some are actually and its pretty hilarious
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On January 05 2009 13:31 YPang wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 13:26 EleanorRIgby wrote:On January 05 2009 13:22 lgdDante wrote:On January 05 2009 12:45 G5 wrote:On January 05 2009 11:06 Chill wrote:On January 05 2009 10:59 IdrA wrote:On January 05 2009 10:58 Chill wrote:
This is at D foreigner levels. Stupid people keep extrapolating it to top foreigner levels. ya there wouldnt be so many foreign z's and t's dominating if it were really imbalanced ohwaito_o Haha okay thats fair Don't fucking tell him that. Greg I love you but you need to cut that shit out. The only reason that there are more top foreign Protoss users than Z or T is because they worked harder at it. It is simply a fluke. If LX choose Terran and practiced equally as hard with his T as he did with his P he would be the same level he is at now. It's all a fluke, don't try to tell us Protoss users that our race is easier because our race worked harder than yours. Think about how much practice White-Ra, IefNaij, NonY, Cloud, PJ, LX etc... etc... worked on there game and then think about all of the good but not top foreign Terrans and Zergs and tell me they have put in as much practice over such a long period of time and the only reason they aren't as good as the players I mentioned above is because Protoss is easier. So stupid. So an entire race of players just happen to work harder than the other 2 races? Yea thats an extremely retarded argument shut up its all a coincidence...-_-
interestingly an argument that stems from this is that P,T,Z players all put x hours training a day, the P gains the most improvement from this X hours a day and thus they stick with sc while Z and T foreigners dont see significant benefits and quit/do other shit/train less
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Personally I think Zerg is easier at the D level... you basically only have to play two matchups because everyone dodges ZvZ, and even if they don't you can occasionally get an easy build order win. Terrans suck at dealing with even the most basic/crappy muta harass, which makes the rest of the matchup easy (if you can defend a bunker rush, which happens the majority of the time).. Protosses at that level have a poor grasp about how to counter all-ins, and even if they survive, it isn't too hard to just econ really hard and roll them with ling/ultra.
If the level of skill sinks even lower, then yeah, Protoss is probably easier.
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On January 05 2009 13:38 daz wrote:
i dont know what kind of garbage terrans your playing against that you dont need to scout and that mismicro 2facs
and im not ashamed to admit i AM a DT fanboy. i love those little ninjas
My point was just unscouted 2fac is not the same as unscouted DT rush. Unscouted and unprepared DT rush is instant gg, 2fac, at least the player going 2fac has to do some sort of work....
Ha. I told myself to stay out of this thread because I knew my Terran biased would come out hardcore. Ah well it's all in good fun.
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On January 05 2009 13:34 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 13:06 skyglow1 wrote:On January 05 2009 12:37 OneOther wrote:On January 05 2009 12:29 Azrael1111 wrote:On January 05 2009 12:26 mIsUZu wrote:
Here's a little insider to tvz for those terrans that thinks p is alla bout 1a2a3a.
1t1a2a3a4a
ZOMG T imbal T easiest T is for noobs
o.O Except you need more hotkeys of units and 5 lurkers will completely roll your army in 5 seconds if you don't pay attention and what happens to a protoss army if you 1a2a3a4a to spider mines? while i agree that protoss is easiest at the low levels (D-/D/D+/C-), this thread is becoming more retarded by each second. Terran has to invest far more time and actions into planting a mine field while zerg can simply burrow, so the danger of getting raped by lurkers is greater. Also by the time you react, you'll have lost way much as a terran vs lurkers than a toss vs mines. I personally think laying mines is just as easy as burrowing... And how can you simply assume that you will lose more vs lurkers than vs mines? it's all situational and dependent. anyways i am getting myself out of this thread
how can laying mines be remotely the same as burrowing. all your do is press a single key to burrow.
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So with all these arguements and discussions, all I see is every race is equally hard and has its own unique diadv/adv regardless of levels..
The difference is Protoss are manly/arrogant so they thnk this game is balanced/fair (yea I do)
Terrans are bitchy and sore so they feel they need more imbal mus like tvz, thus they wine
Zergs think they are always on the losing side because in the past, tvz was imbal (is still am imo), and now the 6dragons dominate; well go watch more JD and back in the days of Savior's vods
Conclusion: At the end of the day, better players win and less players lose, no imbal or easy race so gg no re
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On January 05 2009 13:55 NoobsOfWrath wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 13:34 OneOther wrote:On January 05 2009 13:06 skyglow1 wrote:On January 05 2009 12:37 OneOther wrote:On January 05 2009 12:29 Azrael1111 wrote:On January 05 2009 12:26 mIsUZu wrote:
Here's a little insider to tvz for those terrans that thinks p is alla bout 1a2a3a.
1t1a2a3a4a
ZOMG T imbal T easiest T is for noobs
o.O Except you need more hotkeys of units and 5 lurkers will completely roll your army in 5 seconds if you don't pay attention and what happens to a protoss army if you 1a2a3a4a to spider mines? while i agree that protoss is easiest at the low levels (D-/D/D+/C-), this thread is becoming more retarded by each second. Terran has to invest far more time and actions into planting a mine field while zerg can simply burrow, so the danger of getting raped by lurkers is greater. Also by the time you react, you'll have lost way much as a terran vs lurkers than a toss vs mines. I personally think laying mines is just as easy as burrowing... And how can you simply assume that you will lose more vs lurkers than vs mines? it's all situational and dependent. anyways i am getting myself out of this thread how can laying mines be remotely the same as burrowing. all your do is press a single key to burrow.
A single key burrows lurkers, yes, but it doesn't place them properly. Have fun killing anything when only the 2 lurkers near the front are able to fire at anything, while the other 10 are burrowed a mile away waiting for nothing to happen. Laying mines only takes 2 button presses anyway, and that second button press is to have the mines go EXACTLY where they need to be.
Your argument is like saying tanks are super awesome because it only takes 1 key press to siege them, even though they can be placed really shittily and accomplish next to nothing.
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I think the fact that makes Protoss so newbie friendly is that they style of play is the one than is more similar the newbie style of play.
The Protoss play style is the more instintive one, build your base, build units and a-move to kill the enemy. With Terran you need to manage complicated timing pushes and you cant almost never just a move into the enemy, with Zerg you need to understand larvae management, even more timings and you need good unit control to make your units effecitive.
Also, with Protoss you can follow the newbie instinct of building a few of every units and its not such a horrible mistake as with the other races.
I think that if we put two people with little or no knowledge of RTS games, teach them the absolute basics of Starcraft (build you base, get expansions, produce units, etc) but nothing especific, make them play in a balanced map with differente races, the Protoss would almost always rape the Terran and win a lot against the Zerg, how is the Terran supposed to know that he has to push and not just attack?, and the Zerg that is has to flank or will always lose the battles?
But if take those two people and teach them the basics of competitive gaming (BOs, timings, counters, etc) and make them play, things will change a lot, now Protoss has to scout really well always or will get raped really hard by Zerg tech switchs, and in PvT it always gonna need to be ahead in macro because when the armys are equal size the Terran almost always win, and the same happens if they dont engage the Terran ball the right way.
So yes, Protoss has the easiest and most attractive play style for newbies, but as soon as the level rises just a little, the difference dissapears.
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On January 05 2009 13:47 LuckyFool wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 13:38 daz wrote:
i dont know what kind of garbage terrans your playing against that you dont need to scout and that mismicro 2facs
and im not ashamed to admit i AM a DT fanboy. i love those little ninjas My point was just unscouted 2fac is not the same as unscouted DT rush. Unscouted and unprepared DT rush is instant gg, 2fac, at least the player going 2fac has to do some sort of work.... Ha. I told myself to stay out of this thread because I knew my Terran biased would come out hardcore. Ah well it's all in good fun.
thats really only semi true, in the sense that yes unscouted and unprepared dt rush is instant gg, but its really fucking easy to scout an early dt rush and therefore you have to be pretty dumb to be completely unprepared, at least enough so to hold your main even if you have to retreat from your nat. Also it is true that terran does still have to do some work to win with a 2fac, its not very much work at all if the p was completely unprepared and if your micro is at least at a C- level, which is about the same situation as a DT rush, the differences being that DT rush doesnt even require C- level micro to execute, but is easier to scout then a 2fac, which sort of balances it out
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On January 05 2009 13:26 EleanorRIgby wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 13:22 lgdDante wrote:On January 05 2009 12:45 G5 wrote:On January 05 2009 11:06 Chill wrote:On January 05 2009 10:59 IdrA wrote:On January 05 2009 10:58 Chill wrote:
This is at D foreigner levels. Stupid people keep extrapolating it to top foreigner levels. ya there wouldnt be so many foreign z's and t's dominating if it were really imbalanced ohwaito_o Haha okay thats fair Don't fucking tell him that. Greg I love you but you need to cut that shit out. The only reason that there are more top foreign Protoss users than Z or T is because they worked harder at it. It is simply a fluke. If LX choose Terran and practiced equally as hard with his T as he did with his P he would be the same level he is at now. It's all a fluke, don't try to tell us Protoss users that our race is easier because our race worked harder than yours. Think about how much practice White-Ra, IefNaij, NonY, Cloud, PJ, LX etc... etc... worked on there game and then think about all of the good but not top foreign Terrans and Zergs and tell me they have put in as much practice over such a long period of time and the only reason they aren't as good as the players I mentioned above is because Protoss is easier. So stupid. So an entire race of players just happen to work harder than the other 2 races? Yea thats an extremely retarded argument
If you think top 30 foreigners or top 30 period should be 10 Protoss, 10 Zerg, 10 Terran and take into absolutely NO consideration for the actual person playing the game, you are as ignorant as they come.
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United States10774 Posts
On January 05 2009 13:55 NoobsOfWrath wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 13:34 OneOther wrote:On January 05 2009 13:06 skyglow1 wrote:On January 05 2009 12:37 OneOther wrote:On January 05 2009 12:29 Azrael1111 wrote:On January 05 2009 12:26 mIsUZu wrote:
Here's a little insider to tvz for those terrans that thinks p is alla bout 1a2a3a.
1t1a2a3a4a
ZOMG T imbal T easiest T is for noobs
o.O Except you need more hotkeys of units and 5 lurkers will completely roll your army in 5 seconds if you don't pay attention and what happens to a protoss army if you 1a2a3a4a to spider mines? while i agree that protoss is easiest at the low levels (D-/D/D+/C-), this thread is becoming more retarded by each second. Terran has to invest far more time and actions into planting a mine field while zerg can simply burrow, so the danger of getting raped by lurkers is greater. Also by the time you react, you'll have lost way much as a terran vs lurkers than a toss vs mines. I personally think laying mines is just as easy as burrowing... And how can you simply assume that you will lose more vs lurkers than vs mines? it's all situational and dependent. anyways i am getting myself out of this thread how can laying mines be remotely the same as burrowing. all your do is press a single key to burrow.
laying mines is harder because you have to click once more? LOL
edit: also what NrG.ZaM said
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On January 05 2009 14:08 daz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 13:47 LuckyFool wrote:On January 05 2009 13:38 daz wrote:
i dont know what kind of garbage terrans your playing against that you dont need to scout and that mismicro 2facs
and im not ashamed to admit i AM a DT fanboy. i love those little ninjas My point was just unscouted 2fac is not the same as unscouted DT rush. Unscouted and unprepared DT rush is instant gg, 2fac, at least the player going 2fac has to do some sort of work.... Ha. I told myself to stay out of this thread because I knew my Terran biased would come out hardcore. Ah well it's all in good fun. thats really only semi true, in the sense that yes unscouted and unprepared dt rush is instant gg, but its really fucking easy to scout an early dt rush and therefore you have to be pretty dumb to be completely unprepared, at least enough so to hold your main even if you have to retreat from your nat. Also it is true that terran does still have to do some work to win with a 2fac, its not very much work at all if the p was completely unprepared and if your micro is at least at a C- level, which is about the same situation as a DT rush, the differences being that DT rush doesnt even require C- level micro to execute, but is easier to scout then a 2fac, which sort of balances it out i totally agree. This is why we're still playing this game 10 years later isn't it?
I love how there's like 3 separate arguments going on right now. This thread is getting good.
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When everyone says "low" level they mean like c- right?
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On January 05 2009 14:19 nAi.PrOtOsS wrote:
When everyone says "low" level they mean like c- right? Low level means different things to different people.
Low level in my personal opinion is C- and below.
Mid range is C/C+/B- and B and up is high level.
But like I said, some people could consider C- to be high level. It's all relative.
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I'm pretty sure at blizzcon 2 years ago, TL gave Bisu and Reach this:
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On January 05 2009 14:09 G5 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 13:26 EleanorRIgby wrote:On January 05 2009 13:22 lgdDante wrote:On January 05 2009 12:45 G5 wrote:On January 05 2009 11:06 Chill wrote:On January 05 2009 10:59 IdrA wrote:On January 05 2009 10:58 Chill wrote:
This is at D foreigner levels. Stupid people keep extrapolating it to top foreigner levels. ya there wouldnt be so many foreign z's and t's dominating if it were really imbalanced ohwaito_o Haha okay thats fair Don't fucking tell him that. Greg I love you but you need to cut that shit out. The only reason that there are more top foreign Protoss users than Z or T is because they worked harder at it. It is simply a fluke. If LX choose Terran and practiced equally as hard with his T as he did with his P he would be the same level he is at now. It's all a fluke, don't try to tell us Protoss users that our race is easier because our race worked harder than yours. Think about how much practice White-Ra, IefNaij, NonY, Cloud, PJ, LX etc... etc... worked on there game and then think about all of the good but not top foreign Terrans and Zergs and tell me they have put in as much practice over such a long period of time and the only reason they aren't as good as the players I mentioned above is because Protoss is easier. So stupid. So an entire race of players just happen to work harder than the other 2 races? Yea thats an extremely retarded argument If you think top 30 foreigners or top 30 period should be 10 Protoss, 10 Zerg, 10 Terran and take into absolutely NO consideration for the actual person playing the game, you are as ignorant as they come.
It's more ignorant to assume otherwise. While it most likely won't be a perfect 10/10/10 split, odds are the numbers will be pretty close. Unless you want to argue that more talented gamers are drawn toward picking a certain race.
I think a better argument is that more people tend to start off player as protoss, which therefore gives P a bigger pool of players to produce top players of that race.
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On January 05 2009 14:34 Athos wrote:I'm pretty sure at blizzcon 2 years ago, TL gave Bisu and Reach this:
more like savior and savior only.
Bisu was across the Pacific at that time ^^
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On January 05 2009 19:36 PriitM wrote:
Protoss is alien pig, disgusting!
Protoss pig builds large amount of cannons and cannons are blocked with gateways - easiest expo defending ever. By the time cannons are getting killed protosses army will be there and ready to rape leftovers from attacking army.
I'm sensing someone is mad because they lost their army into cannons? Like walling, cannon placement and forge blocking takes a lot of skill. Even with good placement at the pro level, protoss can still get overrun by lings.
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on very low lvl zerg is easiest  a click go lings xD
terran is hardest oO
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On January 05 2009 14:09 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 13:55 NoobsOfWrath wrote:On January 05 2009 13:34 OneOther wrote:On January 05 2009 13:06 skyglow1 wrote:On January 05 2009 12:37 OneOther wrote:On January 05 2009 12:29 Azrael1111 wrote:On January 05 2009 12:26 mIsUZu wrote:
Here's a little insider to tvz for those terrans that thinks p is alla bout 1a2a3a.
1t1a2a3a4a
ZOMG T imbal T easiest T is for noobs
o.O Except you need more hotkeys of units and 5 lurkers will completely roll your army in 5 seconds if you don't pay attention and what happens to a protoss army if you 1a2a3a4a to spider mines? while i agree that protoss is easiest at the low levels (D-/D/D+/C-), this thread is becoming more retarded by each second. Terran has to invest far more time and actions into planting a mine field while zerg can simply burrow, so the danger of getting raped by lurkers is greater. Also by the time you react, you'll have lost way much as a terran vs lurkers than a toss vs mines. I personally think laying mines is just as easy as burrowing... And how can you simply assume that you will lose more vs lurkers than vs mines? it's all situational and dependent. anyways i am getting myself out of this thread how can laying mines be remotely the same as burrowing. all your do is press a single key to burrow. laying mines is harder because you have to click once more? LOL edit: also what NrG.ZaM said
that would actually make it TWICE as hard though, although i dont agree that burrowing only takes 1 click, it takes nomerous clicks same thing as laying mines certainly doesnt take 1-2 clicks on high level. You need to spam those mines like crazy
I liked dongfengs reply:
interestingly an argument that stems from this is that P,T,Z players all put x hours training a day, the P gains the most improvement from this X hours a day and thus they stick with sc while Z and T foreigners dont see significant benefits and quit/do other shit/train less
for example on gosugamers ranking top 20 there are 12 protosses and 2 terrans 6 zergs.
On iccup there are ALOT of protosses. Not only low level but also higher B B+ level are mostly protosses. Especially if you play terran yourself. I know so many decent terrans who chose to play pvt rather than tvt just because it's easier and in very short time they get quite good at it.
its not true that protoss is just a 1a2a3a race but it surely looks easier since there are too many top foreign protosses to make it a coincidence. Ofcourse protoss users would defend that though, its perfectly understandable...
one mentioned 1a2a3a compared to 1t2a3a4a well you forgot the other "t" clicks which makes that specific move twice as hard.
Protoss is easier to macro, units have more health doesnt need as much attention since they dont die as fast as the other races, and since you dont need to give the army as much attention you can focus more on macro which is the core of protoss. Its almost ok to get wounded here and there since its going to get regenerated anyway.
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in low lvl games protoss is the easier race to use. however once it becomes about c+ level of game play protoss becomes the hardest race to use because protoss is race of adaptation. in other words you need nice game sense or your going to lose alot. A good proof of this is: many protoss players complain how pvz is imbal because in pvz protoss requires you to have great game sense
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On January 05 2009 20:12 ExSoldier wrote:
in low lvl games protoss is the easier race to use. however once it becomes about c+ level of game play protoss becomes the hardest race to use because protoss is race of adaptation. in other words you need good nice sense or your going to lose alot. A good proof of this is: many protoss players complain how pvz is imbal because in pvz protoss requires you to have great game sense
how do you explain the dominance of protoss on a higher level then?
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because they have great game sense and their multi tasking is out this world ^^ for example: why do you think bisu, kal, and jangbi is so good against zergs? while tempest stork and best isn't so strong against zerg.
also maps do play a part in this as well so >.>
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C+/B- toss is the easyest level for toss imo, cause they are good enough to beat hard core terran timing pushes and they have seen zerg chees a 1000 times to so they can adapt easley vs that to. So mostly it gets a more standard game were they can use 1a2a3a4a5a to fullest potential.
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to be honest with you all races have 1 mu that is very difficult to master for many:
tvz, pvz, zvz(or zvt people may argue)
so you really shouldn't choose race because one is considered the "easiest" by the community
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On January 05 2009 20:15 ExSoldier wrote:
because they have great game sense and their multi tasking is out this world ^^ for example: why do you think bisu, kal, and jangbi is so good against zergs? while tempest stork and best isn't so strong against zerg.
also maps do play a part in this as well so >.>
Its not logical that protossplayers would happen to have better gamesense and multitasking.
Its not just considered the esiest race by the vast majority of this comunity, it also shows in the results from the top foreigners. Its no coincidence we had a pvp in the TSL finals.
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On January 05 2009 20:22 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 20:15 ExSoldier wrote:
because they have great game sense and their multi tasking is out this world ^^ for example: why do you think bisu, kal, and jangbi is so good against zergs? while tempest stork and best isn't so strong against zerg.
also maps do play a part in this as well so >.> Its not logical that protossplayers would happen to have better gamesense and multitasking. Its not just considered the esiest race by the vast majority of this comunity, it also shows in the results from the top foreigners. Its no coincidence we had a pvp in the TSL finals.
i didnt say all protoss players have great multitasking and gamesense. what i said was the protoss players that are especially good at pvz have these qualities over the zerg.
also if protoss is the "easiest" race. how do you explain protoss being the most unsuccessful race
also protoss is not all 1a2a3a. if you think about it protoss requires alot of actions in battle than terran and zerg. when terran just mines and sieges protoss have to unload from shuttle(use storm or reaver), move zealots(not attack ground), statis, and also you have to sometimes focus fire with dragoon.
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On January 05 2009 20:24 ExSoldier wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 20:22 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On January 05 2009 20:15 ExSoldier wrote:
because they have great game sense and their multi tasking is out this world ^^ for example: why do you think bisu, kal, and jangbi is so good against zergs? while tempest stork and best isn't so strong against zerg.
also maps do play a part in this as well so >.> Its not logical that protossplayers would happen to have better gamesense and multitasking. Its not just considered the esiest race by the vast majority of this comunity, it also shows in the results from the top foreigners. Its no coincidence we had a pvp in the TSL finals. i didnt say all protoss players have great multitasking and gamesense. what i said was the protoss players that are especially good at pvz have these qualities over the zerg. also if protoss is the "easiest" race. how do you explain protoss being the most unsuccessful race also protoss is not all 1a2a3a. if you think about it protoss requires alot of actions in battle than terran and zerg. when terran just mines and sieges protoss have to unload from shuttle(use storm or reaver), move zealots(not attack ground), statis, and also you have to sometimes focus fire with dragoon.
Protoss isnt the most unsuccessful race so i dont have to explain that.
All races on a higher level are probably equally hard to micro, although if u mismicro with protoss it is not as bad as with terran or zerg. Its also easier to keep good macro with protoss since you dont have to pay as much attention to your army...
Saying that protoss would take more micro than zerg or terran is just false.
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On January 05 2009 15:51 lgdDante wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 14:09 G5 wrote:On January 05 2009 13:26 EleanorRIgby wrote:On January 05 2009 13:22 lgdDante wrote:On January 05 2009 12:45 G5 wrote:On January 05 2009 11:06 Chill wrote:On January 05 2009 10:59 IdrA wrote:On January 05 2009 10:58 Chill wrote:
This is at D foreigner levels. Stupid people keep extrapolating it to top foreigner levels. ya there wouldnt be so many foreign z's and t's dominating if it were really imbalanced ohwaito_o Haha okay thats fair Don't fucking tell him that. Greg I love you but you need to cut that shit out. The only reason that there are more top foreign Protoss users than Z or T is because they worked harder at it. It is simply a fluke. If LX choose Terran and practiced equally as hard with his T as he did with his P he would be the same level he is at now. It's all a fluke, don't try to tell us Protoss users that our race is easier because our race worked harder than yours. Think about how much practice White-Ra, IefNaij, NonY, Cloud, PJ, LX etc... etc... worked on there game and then think about all of the good but not top foreign Terrans and Zergs and tell me they have put in as much practice over such a long period of time and the only reason they aren't as good as the players I mentioned above is because Protoss is easier. So stupid. So an entire race of players just happen to work harder than the other 2 races? Yea thats an extremely retarded argument If you think top 30 foreigners or top 30 period should be 10 Protoss, 10 Zerg, 10 Terran and take into absolutely NO consideration for the actual person playing the game, you are as ignorant as they come. It's more ignorant to assume otherwise. While it most likely won't be a perfect 10/10/10 split, odds are the numbers will be pretty close. Unless you want to argue that more talented gamers are drawn toward picking a certain race. I think a better argument is that more people tend to start off player as protoss, which therefore gives P a bigger pool of players to produce top players of that race.
You could have said the same thing about Terran 4 years ago and actually had alot more statistical evidence.
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Protoss not the most unsuccessful race? here are the titles
osl:
7 zerg
7 protoss(no protoss won 2 titles in osl except garimto....)
11 terran
msl:
6 zerg
4 protoss(only nalra and bisu has msl titles...)
9 terran
wcg:
3 zerg
2 protoss(stork and foru has this title with foru winning with pure luck[how successful was foru...])
4 terran
and only recently protoss been dominating. That is why they called it golden age of protoss? I have said it before protoss requires great game sense and adapt to the opponent. As you can see no protoss won 2 titles in any tournaments except bisu and garimto. And since bisu has great sense and multitasking skills. it is safe to say protoss is the hardest in a higher level of play because bisu is the only successful protoss. that being said protoss is the most unsuccesssful race
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On January 05 2009 20:50 ExSoldier wrote:
Protoss not the most unsuccessful race? here are the titles
osl:
7 zerg
7 protoss(no protoss won 2 titles in osl except garimto....)
11 terran
msl:
6 zerg
4 protoss(only nalra and bisu has msl titles...)
9 terran
wcg:
3 zerg
2 protoss(stork and foru has this title with foru winning with pure luck[how successful was foru...])
4 terran
and only recently protoss been dominating. That is why they called it golden age of protoss? I have said it before protoss requires great game sense and adapt to the opponent. As you can see no protoss won 2 titles in any tournaments except bisu and garimto. And since bisu has great sense and multitasking skills. it is safe to say protoss is the hardest in a higher level of play because bisu is the only successful protoss. that being said protoss is the most unsuccesssful race
we're not talking about the koreans. Atleast I am not.
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On January 05 2009 20:57 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 20:50 ExSoldier wrote:
Protoss not the most unsuccessful race? here are the titles
osl:
7 zerg
7 protoss(no protoss won 2 titles in osl except garimto....)
11 terran
msl:
6 zerg
4 protoss(only nalra and bisu has msl titles...)
9 terran
wcg:
3 zerg
2 protoss(stork and foru has this title with foru winning with pure luck[how successful was foru...])
4 terran
and only recently protoss been dominating. That is why they called it golden age of protoss? I have said it before protoss requires great game sense and adapt to the opponent. As you can see no protoss won 2 titles in any tournaments except bisu and garimto. And since bisu has great sense and multitasking skills. it is safe to say protoss is the hardest in a higher level of play because bisu is the only successful protoss. that being said protoss is the most unsuccesssful race we're not talking about the koreans. Atleast I am not.
look at the title it says why is protoss easy. its talking about the race in general. its illogical to argue saying protoss is the easiest when your not considering the korean progaming scene when e sports was originated from korea
what your saying is like saying nony is the best player in the world without considering all other players in korea.... now plz if you going to argue give me logical arguement
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On January 05 2009 20:59 ExSoldier wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 20:57 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On January 05 2009 20:50 ExSoldier wrote:
Protoss not the most unsuccessful race? here are the titles
osl:
7 zerg
7 protoss(no protoss won 2 titles in osl except garimto....)
11 terran
msl:
6 zerg
4 protoss(only nalra and bisu has msl titles...)
9 terran
wcg:
3 zerg
2 protoss(stork and foru has this title with foru winning with pure luck[how successful was foru...])
4 terran
and only recently protoss been dominating. That is why they called it golden age of protoss? I have said it before protoss requires great game sense and adapt to the opponent. As you can see no protoss won 2 titles in any tournaments except bisu and garimto. And since bisu has great sense and multitasking skills. it is safe to say protoss is the hardest in a higher level of play because bisu is the only successful protoss. that being said protoss is the most unsuccesssful race we're not talking about the koreans. Atleast I am not. look at the title it says why is protoss easy. its talking about the race in general. its illogical to argue saying protoss is the easiest when your not considering the korean progaming scene when e sports was originated from korea what your saying is like saying nony is the best player in the world without considering all other players in korea.... now plz if you going to argue give me logical arguement
Its probably equally hard to master each race. However no foreigner has yet mastered a race.
Foreigners and korean are playing at different levels. Im not talking about protoss being easiest if both players practice 16hours a day 7 hours a week with perfect strats and help from coaches etc.
I meantioned this before you just didn't read it perhaps.
I'm saying that its illogical to assume that the majority of foreign protoss players simply have better gamesense and skills.
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There has never been any statistical evidence to show that protoss is easier at any level. Until we have that its all speculation.
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It could be for Starleagues, with few zerg, there isn't much to limit the protoss population. Terran now has so many effective mech builds to easily take down some of the best zerg. Without the cycle of P>T>Z>P, it is now mainly P>T hence more protoss. It's just my Starleague theorycraft.
I didn't mention anything about the protoss ease of use
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On January 05 2009 21:21 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
However no foreigner has yet mastered a race.
No one has yet mastered a race. Not even Koreans.
Actually, it depends on what it means 'to master' something.
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I would never have expected such impressive results for the poll, here are the facts lazy p users
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On January 05 2009 21:45 axel wrote:I would never have expected such impressive results for the poll, here are the facts lazy p users
I know, it's a real shame we're so lazy we can't can't even bother to vote in a poll. I mean, that's only like one 1a click, surely we should be able to do that!
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On January 05 2009 21:45 axel wrote:I would never have expected such impressive results for the poll, here are the facts lazy p users
When did public opinion begin to have anything to do with facts?
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In my opnion , protoss became the easiest race for some years now because of mbc/ ogn kind of "policy" with theses new macro maps .Maps who gives advantages to protoss which means it forces terran/zerg to mostly turtle and fight with huge armies.
It started with the luna crap ,..and never stopped again..rush hour , azaela , longinus ( gas free welcome) r point andromeda ( even worst 3 bases start wtf?) and there are planty plenty others.
Nearly all new maps now have like 8/9 minerals patch in main and nearly as much in a very very near natural expansions wich means p can nearly always fe whatever the mu without difficulties.
Back in the years , expansions had to be "deserved" , there were micro battles and a lot of strategy involved , mostly on 1 base. Nowadays u can try to do the smartest strategy it could always fail vs a static protoss rallying in front of his natural.
Maybe if they started to make maps with less minerals patch in main and/or natural AND not giving a 3rd just near with a crap choke then maybe games would be a more balanced and , the most important , less boring / macro orientated.
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On January 05 2009 21:58 dream-_- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 21:45 axel wrote:I would never have expected such impressive results for the poll, here are the facts lazy p users When did public opinion begin to have anything to do with facts?
Around the Dark Ages.
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
lots of retards on this thread.
p is only easy at low levels. all races are REALLY hard at high level play. just because some of you retards currently see p dominating (for the 1st time in 11 years) doesn't mean it's suddenly an easy race at high level play.
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On January 05 2009 22:19 MyLostTemple wrote:
lots of retards on this thread.
p is only easy at low levels. all races are REALLY hard at high level play. just because some of you retards currently see p dominating (for the 1st time in 11 years) doesn't mean it's suddenly an easy race at high level play.
EasiER, not easy. This is a very important distinction here. Obviously high-level P playing requires lots of speed and skill which only very few players will reach AT ALL. But among these few players who DO reach this level, there are ~60-70% Protoss players. And THAT is the problem.
I'm sure most of the players complaining about P wouldn't complain about them if it was just 1 or 2 P gosus (e.g. Bisu and Stork) dominating. We're used to 1 or 2 bonjwas at a time - Boxer/Yellow, July/Oov, Savior, Bisu.
But today, it's not just one or two. It's fucking SIX of them ("the six dragons" - sounds nice, but in fact it's a huge problem for SC). And all of them are in the top 10 KeSPA. And on top foreigner level the majority is Protoss too. If you STILL argue that P is only easy at low levels, you're just really retarded or ignorant or didn't look how well all P players are doing at the moment.
Once you look at the actual race distributions you have to notice that something's definitely wrong.
But I guess P players will always say that P is only the easiest at low levels, which is just PART of the truth (the truth is that it's also the easiest on top foreign level and now *apparently* even the easiest in Korea too), after all who wants to be laughed at for playing the easiest race?
Anyway. P will continue to dominate in 2009 if it goes on like this, and this discussion will pop up again and again. Sometimes, the majority is right after all...
We'll probably need new maps which nerf Protoss, or a new balance patch (which won't happen). Or maybe no one even cares anymore about the state of SC and it'll just go on like this until SC2 is released and SC1 dies. Maybe the vast majority of SC players and fans like Protoss that they don't care.
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After watching + Show Spoiler + Jaedong stomping bisu in proleague with mass hydra/lurk + a group of muts to snipe hts
Nevertheless i think you are right. Terran and zerg have big troubles to beat top protoss players lately.
Maybe because most of the top players atm are protoss hehe.
+ Show Spoiler +
Also P is definitly better to play at low level because the machanics are way easier. You just have to use your brain to beat terrans with 200 apm whereas you barely reach 140.
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On January 05 2009 22:42 0xDEADBEEF wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 22:19 MyLostTemple wrote:
lots of retards on this thread.
p is only easy at low levels. all races are REALLY hard at high level play. just because some of you retards currently see p dominating (for the 1st time in 11 years) doesn't mean it's suddenly an easy race at high level play. EasiER, not easy. This is a very important distinction here. Obviously high-level P playing requires lots of speed and skill which only very few players will reach AT ALL. But among these few players who DO reach this level, there are ~60-70% Protoss players. And THAT is the problem. I'm sure most of the players complaining about P wouldn't complain about them if it was just 1 or 2 P gosus (e.g. Bisu and Stork) dominating. We're used to 1 or 2 bonjwas at a time - Boxer/Yellow, July/Oov, Savior, Bisu. But today, it's not just one or two. It's fucking SIX of them ("the six dragons" - sounds nice, but in fact it's a huge problem for SC). And all of them are in the top 10 KeSPA. And on top foreigner level the majority is Protoss too. If you STILL argue that P is only easy at low levels, you're just really retarded or ignorant or didn't look how well all P players are doing at the moment. Once you look at the actual race distributions you have to notice that something's definitely wrong. But I guess P players will always say that P is only the easiest at low levels, which is just PART of the truth (the truth is that it's also the easiest on top foreign level and now *apparently* even the easiest in Korea too), after all who wants to be laughed at for playing the easiest race? Anyway. P will continue to dominate in 2009 if it goes on like this, and this discussion will pop up again and again. Sometimes, the majority is right after all... We'll probably need new maps which nerf Protoss, or a new balance patch (which won't happen). Or maybe no one even cares anymore about the state of SC and it'll just go on like this until SC2 is released and SC1 dies. Maybe the vast majority of SC players and fans like Protoss that they don't care.
This is pretty wrong on a number of levels.
Protoss, if anything, is hardest at high levels. The armies are weaker, especially in the PvT matchup so it requires a lot more thought and creativity. Terran can win through pure mechanics and Zerg can get really ahead in the early/mid-game.
There aren't any bonjwas around right now. If anything is to blame for the current protoss dominance it's a mixture of coincidence (just so happens all 6 dragons are just really gosu players), map imbalance, and the metagame.
Maps that nerf Protoss will just change the six dragons to FlaSh, Mind, Fantasy, Leta, Skyhigh, and firebathero. That's not going to change anything. The best thing for the SC Community is for KESPA to pick the most balanced maps possible. Then if anyone is "dominating" hopefully you people will attribute it to their skill as players.
Just because it's less mechanically demanding, doesn't make it easier at the pro level.
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On January 05 2009 21:38 niteReloaded wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 21:21 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
However no foreigner has yet mastered a race.
No one has yet mastered a race. Not even Koreans. Actually, it depends on what it means 'to master' something.
ofcourse not. i mean that to get S-class or close to S-class progamer level its propably equally hard. For noobs and foreign level good players its probably easier for toss.
low level = foreigners
high level = pro gamers
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On January 05 2009 22:19 MyLostTemple wrote:
lots of retards on this thread.
p is only easy at low levels. all races are REALLY hard at high level play. just because some of you retards currently see p dominating (for the 1st time in 11 years) doesn't mean it's suddenly an easy race at high level play.
equally hard @ progamer level
probably easier at foreign level
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On January 05 2009 22:10 axel wrote:
In my opnion , protoss became the easiest race for some years now because of mbc/ ogn kind of "policy" with theses new macro maps .Maps who gives advantages to protoss which means it forces terran/zerg to mostly turtle and fight with huge armies.
It started with the luna crap ,..and never stopped again..rush hour , azaela , longinus ( gas free welcome) r point andromeda ( even worst 3 bases start wtf?) and there are planty plenty others.
Nearly all new maps now have like 8/9 minerals patch in main and nearly as much in a very very near natural expansions wich means p can nearly always fe whatever the mu without difficulties.
Back in the years , expansions had to be "deserved" , there were micro battles and a lot of strategy involved , mostly on 1 base. Nowadays u can try to do the smartest strategy it could always fail vs a static protoss rallying in front of his natural.
Maybe if they started to make maps with less minerals patch in main and/or natural AND not giving a 3rd just near with a crap choke then maybe games would be a more balanced and , the most important , less boring / macro orientated.
Ya, back in the day when maps like blade storm made it so difficult to expand. (thats sarcasm for those who weren't around in those days)
Only maps toss have ever dominated on are islands, and now after 10 years of progaming we have a toss power swing. I think its well overdue.
New school toss is strong, but terran/zerg will adapt, just like protoss adapted to the once bullshit matchup that was pvz.
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On January 05 2009 13:05 daz wrote:
[
a few points that I wanna throw about this post that was clearly inspired by nerdrage
1. what the fuck is so imba about DT rush? if you dont scout it and you dont prepare for it you will die, just like if i dont scout your 2fac and dont prepare for it i will also die.
2. So wait what your saying here is dt rushing is imba so its gay, but its ok for zerg to cheese?
Even if it is that imbalanced, suck it up princess, its not nearly as imbalanced as zvp used to be for 8 years, payback is a bitch huh?
3. In 70-80 games this season and around the same last season and a few seasons ago this has yet to happen to me.
4. if you got past D+ maybe you wouldnt get cheesed so much. But you probably never will.
1. DTs are the most overpowered unit in the game, they do more damage then battlecruisers and are permanently cloaked. If I could build permanently cloaked battlecruisers instead of wraiths It would be totally overpowered. If you dont scout it (impossible because protoss just blocks ramp with 1 goon and you always scout them last on python) and you prepare for it they never actually do dts, and its much more difficult for a learning player to use proper ebay timing based off of scouting information then it is for toss to go citadel->templar archives (add robo bay if u pylon block urself or forget ur 1 dragoon). The only reason you die if you dont scout 2 fact is because ur micro is bad. Terran siege tank/mine micro is so much more unforgiving then goon micro dont even pretend like 2 facting is cheese.
2. Yeah because protoss units are imbalanced and it is impossible for zerg to win without cheese. 2 years ago I'm sure u were playing fastest so cry about imbalance more scrub
3. Happens to me all the time. Do you never see games that say 1v1 [rank] NO P, because thats exactly what it is.
4. Yeah I fuck around on iccup a shitton, and if you knew some of the builds that I do (nuke rush, battlecruiser rush, SK terran vrs protoss(lol emp), trying to win games with only manner buildings/probes, ling slowdrop, proxy hatchery, proxy barracks fake FD, vulture mine + lockdown tvp, archon only zvp, starship troopers, firebat+valkyrie+tank tvz, cloak wraith + m&m obs killing tvp, omg the list goes on) you would laugh that my win rate is so good. Honestly I'm not saying I'm good (yeah I make new accounts and D-C- bash all day, I never plan on putting the dedication in to play super competitively) If u honestly think iccup stats matter check my stats account -- petzergling597 . 1v1 faggot?
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Lol admitting you're a protoss player is not going to help your argument.
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Germany2762 Posts
somehow i think terran is the easiest race to play... turteling and taking expos behind your sieged tankline with turrets is not hard imho. tvz can be a bitch with marine micro and stuff. but tvp is easier than pvt in my eyes o_O
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On January 06 2009 03:04 jhNz wrote:
somehow i think terran is the easiest race to play... turteling and taking expos behind your sieged tankline with turrets is not hard imho. tvz can be a bitch with marine micro and stuff. but tvp is easier than pvt in my eyes o_O
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On January 06 2009 03:04 jhNz wrote:
somehow i think terran is the easiest race to play... turteling and taking expos behind your sieged tankline with turrets is not hard imho. tvz can be a bitch with marine micro and stuff. but tvp is easier than pvt in my eyes o_O
do you guys just ignore the whole discussion and add stupid comments like this?
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There's also a difference between easiest race to play in general vs easiest race to play for an individual. I would think most progamers are playing whatever race is easiest for them, personally. Really, anyone who cares about results should be using whichever race maximizes their individual potential for success.
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On January 06 2009 03:25 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 03:04 jhNz wrote:
somehow i think terran is the easiest race to play... turteling and taking expos behind your sieged tankline with turrets is not hard imho. tvz can be a bitch with marine micro and stuff. but tvp is easier than pvt in my eyes o_O do you guys just ignore the whole discussion and add stupid comments like this? Yeah seriously, I love how there's a 15 page thread and then people comment in it obviously showing they haven't read a thing.
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BIGGER
IS
BETTER!!!
U S A!
U S A!
U S A!
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
Jesus, it's already been decided.
Protoss is easier at lower levels.
Protoss is NOT EASIEST at higher levels.
At higher levels it is about the player / maps / BO's more than actual race dynamics.
Every year the players change. Some get better, some get worse. Some practice more. Some practice less.
Maps change every season. Maps have a HUGE HUGE thing to do with balancing the matchups.
BO's have changed DRAMATICALLY over the years. The 3 hatch muta -> 3 gas defiler build was never the norm for zerg players. Nor was the Bisu build the norm. But as certain BO's became more efficient / effective, the game has been forced to change with it.
Nobody cares about lower level starcraft players.
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On January 05 2009 22:42 0xDEADBEEF wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 22:19 MyLostTemple wrote:
lots of retards on this thread.
p is only easy at low levels. all races are REALLY hard at high level play. just because some of you retards currently see p dominating (for the 1st time in 11 years) doesn't mean it's suddenly an easy race at high level play. EasiER, not easy. This is a very important distinction here. Obviously high-level P playing requires lots of speed and skill which only very few players will reach AT ALL. But among these few players who DO reach this level, there are ~60-70% Protoss players. And THAT is the problem. I'm sure most of the players complaining about P wouldn't complain about them if it was just 1 or 2 P gosus (e.g. Bisu and Stork) dominating. We're used to 1 or 2 bonjwas at a time - Boxer/Yellow, July/Oov, Savior, Bisu. But today, it's not just one or two. It's fucking SIX of them ("the six dragons" - sounds nice, but in fact it's a huge problem for SC). And all of them are in the top 10 KeSPA. And on top foreigner level the majority is Protoss too. If you STILL argue that P is only easy at low levels, you're just really retarded or ignorant or didn't look how well all P players are doing at the moment. Once you look at the actual race distributions you have to notice that something's definitely wrong. But I guess P players will always say that P is only the easiest at low levels, which is just PART of the truth (the truth is that it's also the easiest on top foreign level and now *apparently* even the easiest in Korea too), after all who wants to be laughed at for playing the easiest race? Anyway. P will continue to dominate in 2009 if it goes on like this, and this discussion will pop up again and again. Sometimes, the majority is right after all... We'll probably need new maps which nerf Protoss, or a new balance patch (which won't happen). Or maybe no one even cares anymore about the state of SC and it'll just go on like this until SC2 is released and SC1 dies. Maybe the vast majority of SC players and fans like Protoss that they don't care.
Ok im tired ab hearing this 6 dragon crap. The maps are toss maps for once in the history of sc, and so yes, protoss are all over it. Im sry that there are 4 toss players to back Bisu and Stork up, and no zerg's to back jaedong up not that theyre bad just jaedong's on another level) and honestly there are 3 terrans in the top 10, and several on there way up (with no real protoss rising as hard as say leta, up magic and really.) The problem has been identified b4 is this, there are no, zergs, they are going extict (again not that they're bad it has a lot to do with third gas on maps). So instead of say zergs taking that spot, its toss. And btw again, this is the first time in 11 years that the maps have been in favor of toss, usually they've tended to be graveyards.
Also every keeps saying crap ab there usually is one dominate player, but have we really looked?
In 2001 yes boxer was on top but, there were 6 zergs in the top 10, and 1 protoss. In 2003 again january, there were no toss in the top 10. 2004 january was even.2005 5 terrans! I can really go on, and get even more specific throughout the years, but the point is dont cry ab 6 dragons seeing as this is the first time in history that it has been in protoss's favor. Was zerg the easy race, we have 3 terran bonwa's, are they the easy race.
Plz if people are argue lets look at sc in it''s entirty, not just the last (how long has it been) oh yeah 3 months. Cry me a river. Protoss has a very dificult late game set up.
But protoss has such low apm right? What ab bisu, what ab even slow stork, who both break in the 300's, and Bisu's apm is one of the highest in the pro scene.
Come on guys not only is this a silly thread, but if were gunna talk ab it, lets be logical.
Fyi terran, tanks ftw.
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On January 06 2009 03:49 gk_ender wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 22:42 0xDEADBEEF wrote:On January 05 2009 22:19 MyLostTemple wrote:
lots of retards on this thread.
p is only easy at low levels. all races are REALLY hard at high level play. just because some of you retards currently see p dominating (for the 1st time in 11 years) doesn't mean it's suddenly an easy race at high level play. EasiER, not easy. This is a very important distinction here. Obviously high-level P playing requires lots of speed and skill which only very few players will reach AT ALL. But among these few players who DO reach this level, there are ~60-70% Protoss players. And THAT is the problem. I'm sure most of the players complaining about P wouldn't complain about them if it was just 1 or 2 P gosus (e.g. Bisu and Stork) dominating. We're used to 1 or 2 bonjwas at a time - Boxer/Yellow, July/Oov, Savior, Bisu. But today, it's not just one or two. It's fucking SIX of them ("the six dragons" - sounds nice, but in fact it's a huge problem for SC). And all of them are in the top 10 KeSPA. And on top foreigner level the majority is Protoss too. If you STILL argue that P is only easy at low levels, you're just really retarded or ignorant or didn't look how well all P players are doing at the moment. Once you look at the actual race distributions you have to notice that something's definitely wrong. But I guess P players will always say that P is only the easiest at low levels, which is just PART of the truth (the truth is that it's also the easiest on top foreign level and now *apparently* even the easiest in Korea too), after all who wants to be laughed at for playing the easiest race? Anyway. P will continue to dominate in 2009 if it goes on like this, and this discussion will pop up again and again. Sometimes, the majority is right after all... We'll probably need new maps which nerf Protoss, or a new balance patch (which won't happen). Or maybe no one even cares anymore about the state of SC and it'll just go on like this until SC2 is released and SC1 dies. Maybe the vast majority of SC players and fans like Protoss that they don't care. Ok im tired ab hearing this 6 dragon crap. The maps are toss maps for once in the history of sc, and so yes, protoss are all over it. Im sry that there are 4 toss players to back Bisu and Stork up, and no zerg's to back jaedong up not that theyre bad just jaedong's on another level) and honestly there are 3 terrans in the top 10, and several on there way up (with no real protoss rising as hard as say leta, up magic and really.) The problem has been identified b4 is this, there are no, zergs, they are going extict (again not that they're bad it has a lot to do with third gas on maps). So instead of say zergs taking that spot, its toss. And btw again, this is the first time in 11 years that the maps have been in favor of toss, usually they've tended to be graveyards. Also every keeps saying crap ab there usually is one dominate player, but have we really looked? In 2001 yes boxer was on top but, there were 6 zergs in the top 10, and 1 protoss. In 2003 again january, there were no toss in the top 10. 2004 january was even.2005 5 terrans! I can really go on, and get even more specific throughout the years, but the point is dont cry ab 6 dragons seeing as this is the first time in history that it has been in protoss's favor. Was zerg the easy race, we have 3 terran bonwa's, are they the easy race. Plz if people are argue lets look at sc in it''s entirty, not just the last (how long has it been) oh yeah 3 months. Cry me a river. Protoss has a very dificult late game set up. But protoss has such low apm right? What ab bisu, what ab even slow stork, who both break in the 300's, and Bisu's apm is one of the highest in the pro scene. Come on guys not only is this a silly thread, but if were gunna talk ab it, lets be logical. Fyi terran, tanks ftw.
I heard someone quote stork saying he tried new protoss strategies on old maps and the maps seemed balanced and fine..
And also people don't mean the progamer level nearly as much as lower levels in this thread, yet everything you said is about pros lol..
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On January 06 2009 03:54 Camlito wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 03:49 gk_ender wrote:On January 05 2009 22:42 0xDEADBEEF wrote:On January 05 2009 22:19 MyLostTemple wrote:
lots of retards on this thread.
p is only easy at low levels. all races are REALLY hard at high level play. just because some of you retards currently see p dominating (for the 1st time in 11 years) doesn't mean it's suddenly an easy race at high level play. EasiER, not easy. This is a very important distinction here. Obviously high-level P playing requires lots of speed and skill which only very few players will reach AT ALL. But among these few players who DO reach this level, there are ~60-70% Protoss players. And THAT is the problem. I'm sure most of the players complaining about P wouldn't complain about them if it was just 1 or 2 P gosus (e.g. Bisu and Stork) dominating. We're used to 1 or 2 bonjwas at a time - Boxer/Yellow, July/Oov, Savior, Bisu. But today, it's not just one or two. It's fucking SIX of them ("the six dragons" - sounds nice, but in fact it's a huge problem for SC). And all of them are in the top 10 KeSPA. And on top foreigner level the majority is Protoss too. If you STILL argue that P is only easy at low levels, you're just really retarded or ignorant or didn't look how well all P players are doing at the moment. Once you look at the actual race distributions you have to notice that something's definitely wrong. But I guess P players will always say that P is only the easiest at low levels, which is just PART of the truth (the truth is that it's also the easiest on top foreign level and now *apparently* even the easiest in Korea too), after all who wants to be laughed at for playing the easiest race? Anyway. P will continue to dominate in 2009 if it goes on like this, and this discussion will pop up again and again. Sometimes, the majority is right after all... We'll probably need new maps which nerf Protoss, or a new balance patch (which won't happen). Or maybe no one even cares anymore about the state of SC and it'll just go on like this until SC2 is released and SC1 dies. Maybe the vast majority of SC players and fans like Protoss that they don't care. Ok im tired ab hearing this 6 dragon crap. The maps are toss maps for once in the history of sc, and so yes, protoss are all over it. Im sry that there are 4 toss players to back Bisu and Stork up, and no zerg's to back jaedong up not that theyre bad just jaedong's on another level) and honestly there are 3 terrans in the top 10, and several on there way up (with no real protoss rising as hard as say leta, up magic and really.) The problem has been identified b4 is this, there are no, zergs, they are going extict (again not that they're bad it has a lot to do with third gas on maps). So instead of say zergs taking that spot, its toss. And btw again, this is the first time in 11 years that the maps have been in favor of toss, usually they've tended to be graveyards. Also every keeps saying crap ab there usually is one dominate player, but have we really looked? In 2001 yes boxer was on top but, there were 6 zergs in the top 10, and 1 protoss. In 2003 again january, there were no toss in the top 10. 2004 january was even.2005 5 terrans! I can really go on, and get even more specific throughout the years, but the point is dont cry ab 6 dragons seeing as this is the first time in history that it has been in protoss's favor. Was zerg the easy race, we have 3 terran bonwa's, are they the easy race. Plz if people are argue lets look at sc in it''s entirty, not just the last (how long has it been) oh yeah 3 months. Cry me a river. Protoss has a very dificult late game set up. But protoss has such low apm right? What ab bisu, what ab even slow stork, who both break in the 300's, and Bisu's apm is one of the highest in the pro scene. Come on guys not only is this a silly thread, but if were gunna talk ab it, lets be logical. Fyi terran, tanks ftw. I heard someone quote stork saying he tried new protoss strategies on old maps and the maps seemed balanced and fine.. And also people don't mean the progamer level nearly as much as lower levels in this thread, yet everything you said is about pros lol..
I quoted who i was replying and what i was replying
Honestly if u guys can't see that the sudden influx on foreigner protoss is a direct corelation to the pro scene than i just don't know what to say. Yes the new build makes protoss hard to beat, just like the new builds made blank hard to beat (btw that build hes refering to is the fe to the 2 archon legs +1 build against zergs, not terran). Foreign kids copy the pros as much as possible, and so the trends at the top are reflected at the bottom. If jaedong, calm, luxury, and zero are having trouble dealing with a new toss build, then how the hell do u expect low level guys to be able to handle it. It's not an ambiguous build, its analyzed and posted everywhere, and so its vastly available. As soon as they come up with a way to stop it, low levels will see more successful zergs again. Honestly the low level toss (including myself) ive seen are disasters, u claim 1a2a3a4a, but id love u guys to try that against tanks or lurks. Psi storms are miserable, reaver drops inefective. Dt's ill give to you, but as soon as theyre visible, its over. Protoss I think are no easier than any other race.
Was that on topic enough?
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I wasn't trying to say what you said was wrong. Alot of it is right and a good opinion .
Also there's always been more foreigner protoss, i don't think many people have said directly "more protosses are on iccup now because of zeal/archon push", if anything the last revolution for influxes of protoss was bisu 3-0ing savior.
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On January 06 2009 03:04 jhNz wrote:
somehow i think terran is the easiest race to play... turteling and taking expos behind your sieged tankline with turrets is not hard imho. tvz can be a bitch with marine micro and stuff. but tvp is easier than pvt in my eyes o_O
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Protoss late game micro against terran is to split up your army and wait then 1a2a3a4a5a in to attack. Recently I have been doing some PvT as well. Funny thing is that when I have been struggeling with my TvP I got amazed how easy it is for Protoss in the same match up, everything is easier, macro, micro, multitasking plus that you got so many ways to get easy wins.
Tvz can be a bitch with marine micro and stuff? Oh wow, I don't even know where to start, I advice you to play TvZ and you might understand how it is.
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On January 06 2009 06:22 NotSupporting wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 03:04 jhNz wrote:
somehow i think terran is the easiest race to play... turteling and taking expos behind your sieged tankline with turrets is not hard imho. tvz can be a bitch with marine micro and stuff. but tvp is easier than pvt in my eyes o_O You have no idea what you are talking about. Protoss late game micro against terran is to split up your army and wait then 1a2a3a4a5a in to attack. Recently I have been doing some PvT as well. Funny thing is that when I have been struggeling with my TvP I got amazed how easy it is for Protoss in the same match up, everything is easier, macro, micro, multitasking plus that you got so many ways to get easy wins. Tvz can be a bitch with marine micro and stuff? Oh wow, I don't even know where to start, I advice you to play TvZ and you might understand how it is.
Play TvP for about a week and then reread your statement
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On January 06 2009 06:29 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 06:22 NotSupporting wrote:On January 06 2009 03:04 jhNz wrote:
somehow i think terran is the easiest race to play... turteling and taking expos behind your sieged tankline with turrets is not hard imho. tvz can be a bitch with marine micro and stuff. but tvp is easier than pvt in my eyes o_O You have no idea what you are talking about. Protoss late game micro against terran is to split up your army and wait then 1a2a3a4a5a in to attack. Recently I have been doing some PvT as well. Funny thing is that when I have been struggeling with my TvP I got amazed how easy it is for Protoss in the same match up, everything is easier, macro, micro, multitasking plus that you got so many ways to get easy wins. Tvz can be a bitch with marine micro and stuff? Oh wow, I don't even know where to start, I advice you to play TvZ and you might understand how it is. Play TvP for about a week and then reread your statement
Whats your point? I have been playing TvP for a year -_-
My point was that TvP is a lot easier than PvT, don't know if you miss understood or something
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
This shit is dumb.
Yes, protoss is the race which is easiest to learn.
The problem is everybody learns a lot & fast in times of iccup where we can play Korean Pro's too.
Fact: Once you're over B- / B level improving will slow down rapidly, no matter the race you play.
You need to work very very hard to improve your timings etc no matter which race you play.
Because there's always people that are a lot better than you are, always, no fucking matter how good you are.
There's even people that are better than Bisu, Jaedong or Flash at one opportunity or the other.
Point is: there is no need to cry about "Protoss being easy" when you aren't even somewhat close to level the best players of your race are playing at.
Btw: Just because some P's are at the top of progaming right now it does not mean that P > all.
In fact there's very little games where you see a Zerg playing a really really smart straight up ZvP.
Nice example: Best vs Savior, Savior totally outplayed Best to a certain degree: + Show Spoiler + sniped his shuttle, delaying his timing, getting 6 hatch on his own -> 4 base vs 2 base. What Savior decided to do was make 20 Mutas against Best's 10 corsairs, which was literally his only force at that point. Way to throw away a won game.
And this is just one example of many games.
Look at the most popular build against protoss of the last 2-3 months? 2 hatch mutalisks? In sair only times? What are Zerg's thinking seriously.
Brain up, start using the queen in ZvP and you'll be fine. + Show Spoiler + For everyone that doesn't know: ensnare >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> corsair.
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On January 06 2009 02:35 petzergling wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 13:05 daz wrote:
[
a few points that I wanna throw about this post that was clearly inspired by nerdrage
1. what the fuck is so imba about DT rush? if you dont scout it and you dont prepare for it you will die, just like if i dont scout your 2fac and dont prepare for it i will also die.
2. So wait what your saying here is dt rushing is imba so its gay, but its ok for zerg to cheese?
Even if it is that imbalanced, suck it up princess, its not nearly as imbalanced as zvp used to be for 8 years, payback is a bitch huh?
3. In 70-80 games this season and around the same last season and a few seasons ago this has yet to happen to me.
4. if you got past D+ maybe you wouldnt get cheesed so much. But you probably never will. 1. DTs are the most overpowered unit in the game, they do more damage then battlecruisers and are permanently cloaked. If I could build permanently cloaked battlecruisers instead of wraiths It would be totally overpowered. If you dont scout it (impossible because protoss just blocks ramp with 1 goon and you always scout them last on python) and you prepare for it they never actually do dts, and its much more difficult for a learning player to use proper ebay timing based off of scouting information then it is for toss to go citadel->templar archives (add robo bay if u pylon block urself or forget ur 1 dragoon). The only reason you die if you dont scout 2 fact is because ur micro is bad. Terran siege tank/mine micro is so much more unforgiving then goon micro dont even pretend like 2 facting is cheese. 2. Yeah because protoss units are imbalanced and it is impossible for zerg to win without cheese. 2 years ago I'm sure u were playing fastest so cry about imbalance more scrub 3. Happens to me all the time. Do you never see games that say 1v1 [rank] NO P, because thats exactly what it is. 4. Yeah I fuck around on iccup a shitton, and if you knew some of the builds that I do (nuke rush, battlecruiser rush, SK terran vrs protoss(lol emp), trying to win games with only manner buildings/probes, ling slowdrop, proxy hatchery, proxy barracks fake FD, vulture mine + lockdown tvp, archon only zvp, starship troopers, firebat+valkyrie+tank tvz, cloak wraith + m&m obs killing tvp, omg the list goes on) you would laugh that my win rate is so good. Honestly I'm not saying I'm good (yeah I make new accounts and D-C- bash all day, I never plan on putting the dedication in to play super competitively) If u honestly think iccup stats matter check my stats account -- petzergling597 . 1v1 faggot?
Wow. Really? What is up with all of this in TL all of a sudden? What is this?
Right now I am trying to figure out if your brain is functioning properly..........
LOL at protoss unit IMBA
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United States10774 Posts
On January 05 2009 22:42 0xDEADBEEF wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 22:19 MyLostTemple wrote:
lots of retards on this thread.
p is only easy at low levels. all races are REALLY hard at high level play. just because some of you retards currently see p dominating (for the 1st time in 11 years) doesn't mean it's suddenly an easy race at high level play. EasiER, not easy. This is a very important distinction here. Obviously high-level P playing requires lots of speed and skill which only very few players will reach AT ALL. But among these few players who DO reach this level, there are ~60-70% Protoss players. And THAT is the problem. I'm sure most of the players complaining about P wouldn't complain about them if it was just 1 or 2 P gosus (e.g. Bisu and Stork) dominating. We're used to 1 or 2 bonjwas at a time - Boxer/Yellow, July/Oov, Savior, Bisu. But today, it's not just one or two. It's fucking SIX of them ("the six dragons" - sounds nice, but in fact it's a huge problem for SC). And all of them are in the top 10 KeSPA. And on top foreigner level the majority is Protoss too. If you STILL argue that P is only easy at low levels, you're just really retarded or ignorant or didn't look how well all P players are doing at the moment. Once you look at the actual race distributions you have to notice that something's definitely wrong. But I guess P players will always say that P is only the easiest at low levels, which is just PART of the truth (the truth is that it's also the easiest on top foreign level and now *apparently* even the easiest in Korea too), after all who wants to be laughed at for playing the easiest race? Anyway. P will continue to dominate in 2009 if it goes on like this, and this discussion will pop up again and again. Sometimes, the majority is right after all... We'll probably need new maps which nerf Protoss, or a new balance patch (which won't happen). Or maybe no one even cares anymore about the state of SC and it'll just go on like this until SC2 is released and SC1 dies. Maybe the vast majority of SC players and fans like Protoss that they don't care.
lol this makes my eyes bleed
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On January 06 2009 03:49 gk_ender wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 22:42 0xDEADBEEF wrote:On January 05 2009 22:19 MyLostTemple wrote:
lots of retards on this thread.
p is only easy at low levels. all races are REALLY hard at high level play. just because some of you retards currently see p dominating (for the 1st time in 11 years) doesn't mean it's suddenly an easy race at high level play. EasiER, not easy. This is a very important distinction here. Obviously high-level P playing requires lots of speed and skill which only very few players will reach AT ALL. But among these few players who DO reach this level, there are ~60-70% Protoss players. And THAT is the problem. I'm sure most of the players complaining about P wouldn't complain about them if it was just 1 or 2 P gosus (e.g. Bisu and Stork) dominating. We're used to 1 or 2 bonjwas at a time - Boxer/Yellow, July/Oov, Savior, Bisu. But today, it's not just one or two. It's fucking SIX of them ("the six dragons" - sounds nice, but in fact it's a huge problem for SC). And all of them are in the top 10 KeSPA. And on top foreigner level the majority is Protoss too. If you STILL argue that P is only easy at low levels, you're just really retarded or ignorant or didn't look how well all P players are doing at the moment. Once you look at the actual race distributions you have to notice that something's definitely wrong. But I guess P players will always say that P is only the easiest at low levels, which is just PART of the truth (the truth is that it's also the easiest on top foreign level and now *apparently* even the easiest in Korea too), after all who wants to be laughed at for playing the easiest race? Anyway. P will continue to dominate in 2009 if it goes on like this, and this discussion will pop up again and again. Sometimes, the majority is right after all... We'll probably need new maps which nerf Protoss, or a new balance patch (which won't happen). Or maybe no one even cares anymore about the state of SC and it'll just go on like this until SC2 is released and SC1 dies. Maybe the vast majority of SC players and fans like Protoss that they don't care. Ok im tired ab hearing this 6 dragon crap. The maps are toss maps for once in the history of sc, and so yes, protoss are all over it. Im sry that there are 4 toss players to back Bisu and Stork up, and no zerg's to back jaedong up not that theyre bad just jaedong's on another level) and honestly there are 3 terrans in the top 10, and several on there way up (with no real protoss rising as hard as say leta, up magic and really.) The problem has been identified b4 is this, there are no, zergs, they are going extict (again not that they're bad it has a lot to do with third gas on maps). So instead of say zergs taking that spot, its toss. And btw again, this is the first time in 11 years that the maps have been in favor of toss, usually they've tended to be graveyards. Also every keeps saying crap ab there usually is one dominate player, but have we really looked? In 2001 yes boxer was on top but, there were 6 zergs in the top 10, and 1 protoss. In 2003 again january, there were no toss in the top 10. 2004 january was even.2005 5 terrans! I can really go on, and get even more specific throughout the years, but the point is dont cry ab 6 dragons seeing as this is the first time in history that it has been in protoss's favor. Was zerg the easy race, we have 3 terran bonwa's, are they the easy race. Plz if people are argue lets look at sc in it''s entirty, not just the last (how long has it been) oh yeah 3 months. Cry me a river. Protoss has a very dificult late game set up. But protoss has such low apm right? What ab bisu, what ab even slow stork, who both break in the 300's, and Bisu's apm is one of the highest in the pro scene. Come on guys not only is this a silly thread, but if were gunna talk ab it, lets be logical. Fyi terran, tanks ftw.
Hey this thread might seem a little silly, but I read this somewhere else and wanted to see wat Tl.net thinks. I have only been here for 2 months.
And yeah, I am talking about Starcraft as a whole. Obviously people pick their race because they feel its more natural to them.
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On January 06 2009 06:31 NotSupporting wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 06:29 arb wrote:On January 06 2009 06:22 NotSupporting wrote:On January 06 2009 03:04 jhNz wrote:
somehow i think terran is the easiest race to play... turteling and taking expos behind your sieged tankline with turrets is not hard imho. tvz can be a bitch with marine micro and stuff. but tvp is easier than pvt in my eyes o_O You have no idea what you are talking about. Protoss late game micro against terran is to split up your army and wait then 1a2a3a4a5a in to attack. Recently I have been doing some PvT as well. Funny thing is that when I have been struggeling with my TvP I got amazed how easy it is for Protoss in the same match up, everything is easier, macro, micro, multitasking plus that you got so many ways to get easy wins. Tvz can be a bitch with marine micro and stuff? Oh wow, I don't even know where to start, I advice you to play TvZ and you might understand how it is. Play TvP for about a week and then reread your statement Whats your point? I have been playing TvP for a year -_- My point was that TvP is a lot easier than PvT, don't know if you miss understood or something
I was actually refering to jhNz i think you edited around the same time i posted sorry.
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Protoss is ez mode compared to T and Z: deny it, whine and theorycraft all you like - it's just fact.
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On January 06 2009 07:17 Hans-Titan wrote:
Protoss is ez mode compared to T and Z: deny it, whine and theorycraft all you like - it's just fact.
Fact based on what?
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What the hell are you guys whining about? Starcraft is very balanced, except one matchup: TvZ. Terrans have so much advantage using marines and everything they have is cost efficient: vulture, firebat, medic, turret
Don't talk about Protoss, it has its strengths and weaknesses. Just see how "fair" it is when you lose two hatcheries to small two dropships in about 7 seconds before my army comes in, while its almost impossible to take down a Terran expo (you need to invest in a HUGE drop, not the cost of 1 stupid dropship) and even then, CC will just lift
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you build overlords anyway for supply so thats a dumb comparison.
All matchups are balanced
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Seriously now, Protosses used to be kicked back and forth, its only these recent times that they are getting their spotlight
Look at how long Terrans have dominated the champion scene for so long. I can name only two or three zergs whose had similiar dominance (Savior, July, Jaedong) while I can name at least 8 terrans. Protoss, maybe Anytime, Bisu, Stork, Garimto
Almost all Terrans had very good TvZ while they had bad or good TvP. Shows how easy that matchup is to them i guess
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There got to be a reason why terran has a higer winning precentage in tvz
There got a be a reason why terran has a lower winning precentage in tvp
It's funny how you as a terran has same amount of expos as protoss and he has more army than u and still he has 2000+ minerals and gas roughly speaking of course, and terran barely keeps up while protoss can dance around the map taking expos as they want.
All these new maps are so macro based , the editoriors wanted to see some real long games. So I think the maps are makes the mu's imba. Cuz it was alot easier in the old days. I played this game since it came out with a few breaks. Never been this hard as now. Playing on a map like python against toss as terran is 80% loss for me. While TvZ is easy. And yes I have played enough games to meet all kind of players both the good and the bad ones. Have I gone crappier? Im gonna kill the guy who said pratice makes perfect..
something is wrong
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
Sorry Zekk but if this happens to you then you were just way worse than your opponent.
If your opponent beats your force while still having 2k it probably means he had thrice amount of your economy and thus has no problem with it.
If I have 2k on my bank, the Terran's I'm used to face would spank my face around so bad that I'd have to ask for mercy.
Terran same expo as Protoss = Protoss loses.
See Blue Storm for reference, Protoss wins before 15 mins or simply doesn't at all.
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lol ZeKk, Terrans are advantageous against Protoss on Python, so your example on maps is hilarious undermined.
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You know, there was a time when Protoss was considered the weakest among the three races. Go back some years and look into it, its quite interesting to see how the game has developed. It seems to me that many of the thoughts posted here is regarding low-ranked play. I can guarantee you all that when reaching the higher ranks, the precision level required to play Protoss is just ridiculous.
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This thread is turning in to a "is starcraft balanced" thread. Therefore I would like to quote a very special player who we all (including his gf) loves.
On December 10 2008 12:51 Artosis wrote:
sc isn't balanced. its balanced enough that if you try hard enough and practice long enough, you can always overcome any imbalance.
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I know that Infernal But they never quit expanding. But toss always got a couple of thousands more in economy even if T has the same amount of expos or is sligthly behind. which is wierd imo. If both plays fe t get's behind in eco. It happens in pro games too, only they can beat it due to thier superior skill.
Koreasilver I would like to see you contain and secure all the expos on python. You know you have only 15 minuts to stop him from taking all the expos and that includs attackings.
Artosis is right but too bad you need 10+ games/day to learn that. We all should get the chance to enjoy this game on equal condition. u gotta agree about that. Just hope it sc2 will be more balanced or atleast favouring T
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On January 06 2009 08:22 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Sorry Zekk but if this happens to you then you were just way worse than your opponent.
If your opponent beats your force while still having 2k it probably means he had thrice amount of your economy and thus has no problem with it.
If I have 2k on my bank, the Terran's I'm used to face would spank my face around so bad that I'd have to ask for mercy.
Terran same expo as Protoss = Protoss loses.
See Blue Storm for reference, Protoss wins before 15 mins or simply doesn't at all.
only the dumbasses who went arbiter on it
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toss easiest cause 1a2a3a -_-
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For everyone saying about previous years protoss hasnt done well at all, well what if we are at the point when build orders are almost perfected and the metagame does not significantly evolve further? We'll see eventually if protoss really is balanced.
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On January 06 2009 11:22 infinity2k9 wrote:
For everyone saying about previous years protoss hasnt done well at all, well what if we are at the point when build orders are almost perfected and the metagame does not significantly evolve further? We'll see eventually if protoss really is balanced.
Honestly because of the fact that proleague maps are designed and can be changed I cant really ever see an unbalanced metagame. If the meta actually becomes stagnant to the point where 1 race is consistantly ahead the map pool can be changed to balance out the imperfections
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On January 06 2009 10:20 ZeKk wrote:I know that Infernal But they never quit expanding. But toss always got a couple of thousands more in economy even if T has the same amount of expos or is sligthly behind. which is wierd imo. If both plays fe t get's behind in eco. It happens in pro games too, only they can beat it due to thier superior skill. Koreasilver I would like to see you contain and secure all the expos on python. You know you have only 15 minuts to stop him from taking all the expos and that includs attackings. Artosis is right but too bad you need 10+ games/day to learn that. We all should get the chance to enjoy this game on equal condition. u gotta agree about that. Just hope it sc2 will be more balanced or atleast favouring T
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On January 06 2009 10:20 ZeKk wrote:I know that Infernal But they never quit expanding. But toss always got a couple of thousands more in economy even if T has the same amount of expos or is sligthly behind. which is wierd imo. If both plays fe t get's behind in eco. It happens in pro games too, only they can beat it due to thier superior skill. Koreasilver I would like to see you contain and secure all the expos on python. You know you have only 15 minuts to stop him from taking all the expos and that includs attackings. Artosis is right but too bad you need 10+ games/day to learn that. We all should get the chance to enjoy this game on equal condition. u gotta agree about that. Just hope it sc2 will be more balanced or atleast favouring T
Sigh. That's why you lay mines around and intercept probes, harass, do drop harass. The reason why the protoss' that you fight always out expand you, its either because you turtle too much and you are not moving out or you fail to scout the expansions.
You may get the same expo count but at what part in the game? If he gets 3 expansions 5 mins earlier than you start, of course he would have more resouces. You didn't stop him from getting expos earlier so there's no reason to blame the imbalance on protoss when you don't do the appropriate actions to prevent him from getting the expansions as terran.
You don't HAVE to secure all the expansions on python. 3 bases is enough to over-run a decent protoss.. despite him having 5 bases. EDIT: Depending also at what time he gets these expansions.
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On January 06 2009 11:36 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 10:20 ZeKk wrote:I know that Infernal But they never quit expanding. But toss always got a couple of thousands more in economy even if T has the same amount of expos or is sligthly behind. which is wierd imo. If both plays fe t get's behind in eco. It happens in pro games too, only they can beat it due to thier superior skill. Koreasilver I would like to see you contain and secure all the expos on python. You know you have only 15 minuts to stop him from taking all the expos and that includs attackings. Artosis is right but too bad you need 10+ games/day to learn that. We all should get the chance to enjoy this game on equal condition. u gotta agree about that. Just hope it sc2 will be more balanced or atleast favouring T
Out of argue so raped lol
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Personally I thought back in the days of Sauron Zerg that zerg was actually the easiest to play, but since the viability of Sauron Zerg is next to nil at this point in the game (and probably forever in the future of Starcraft as well), then well yeah... Protoss is the easiest race to play.
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hum....ok . This needs to stop. We have a consensus here that Protoss is the easiest race at low levels (obviously).
What most people fail to realize however is that Protoss is also the easiest race at the highest levels of gaming. The gap of relative difficulty between the 3 races might be narrower at this level but some facts remain;
1.High HP Unit, Limited Unit special-Abilities ...easier micro
2.Longer unit build time, easier macro
3.Easy expansion setup, easier macro
4.Ability to hotkey your entire army in control groups, easier micro
5.Ability to freely mix your unit composition in each group, easier micro
Do you think that these 5 points do not apply at the pro-gaming level? The intensity of the game is higher, but these facts remain. The difference is that progaming Protosses are doing simple tasks at a higher speed and with better precision whereas progaming T and Z users are doing hard tasks at an insane speed with still higher precision. To say that at the highest level of Starcraft, all 3 races are equally difficult to play is simply inaccurate. Yes, the difference in relative difficulty might not be as blatant as it is at the lower levels, but Protoss remains the easiest race at all levels of play.
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United States10774 Posts
On January 06 2009 12:11 TheTruthTeller wrote:
hum....ok . This needs to stop. We have a consensus here that Protoss is the easiest race at low levels (obviously).
What most people fail to realize however is that Protoss is also the easiest race at the highest levels of gaming. The gap of relative difficulty between the 3 races might be narrower at this level but some facts remain;
1.High HP Unit, Limited Unit special-Abilities ...easier micro
2.Longer unit build time, easier macro
3.Easy expansion setup, easier macro
4.Ability to hotkey your entire army in control groups, easier micro
5.Ability to freely mix your unit composition in each group, easier micro
Do you think that these 5 points do not apply at the pro-gaming level? The intensity of the game is higher, but these facts remain. The difference is that progaming Protosses are doing simple tasks at a higher speed and with better precision whereas progaming T and Z users are doing hard tasks at an insane speed with still higher precision. To say that at the highest level of Starcraft, all 3 races are equally difficult to play is simply inaccurate. Yes, the difference in relative difficulty might not be as blatant as it is at the lower levels, but Protoss remains the easiest race at all levels of play.
....SOMEBODY CLOSE THIS DAMNED THREAD ALREADY BEFORE IT GETS WORSE
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United States10774 Posts
No, trembled by your stupidity.
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yes u can argue this but i believe zeal goon is relatively inefficient
therefore toss needs to mix in the high end units to remain competitive
or take the bisu route of taking advantage of the low actions required to play the basic protoss and use that extra apm to create so many threats that the t and z, already burdened by high actions required for basic play to cope with all these threats
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On January 06 2009 02:35 petzergling wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 13:05 daz wrote:
[
a few points that I wanna throw about this post that was clearly inspired by nerdrage
1. what the fuck is so imba about DT rush? if you dont scout it and you dont prepare for it you will die, just like if i dont scout your 2fac and dont prepare for it i will also die.
2. So wait what your saying here is dt rushing is imba so its gay, but its ok for zerg to cheese?
Even if it is that imbalanced, suck it up princess, its not nearly as imbalanced as zvp used to be for 8 years, payback is a bitch huh?
3. In 70-80 games this season and around the same last season and a few seasons ago this has yet to happen to me.
4. if you got past D+ maybe you wouldnt get cheesed so much. But you probably never will. 1. DTs are the most overpowered unit in the game, they do more damage then battlecruisers and are permanently cloaked. If I could build permanently cloaked battlecruisers instead of wraiths It would be totally overpowered. If you dont scout it (impossible because protoss just blocks ramp with 1 goon and you always scout them last on python) and you prepare for it they never actually do dts, and its much more difficult for a learning player to use proper ebay timing based off of scouting information then it is for toss to go citadel->templar archives (add robo bay if u pylon block urself or forget ur 1 dragoon). The only reason you die if you dont scout 2 fact is because ur micro is bad. Terran siege tank/mine micro is so much more unforgiving then goon micro dont even pretend like 2 facting is cheese. 2. Yeah because protoss units are imbalanced and it is impossible for zerg to win without cheese. 2 years ago I'm sure u were playing fastest so cry about imbalance more scrub 3. Happens to me all the time. Do you never see games that say 1v1 [rank] NO P, because thats exactly what it is. 4. Yeah I fuck around on iccup a shitton, and if you knew some of the builds that I do (nuke rush, battlecruiser rush, SK terran vrs protoss(lol emp), trying to win games with only manner buildings/probes, ling slowdrop, proxy hatchery, proxy barracks fake FD, vulture mine + lockdown tvp, archon only zvp, starship troopers, firebat+valkyrie+tank tvz, cloak wraith + m&m obs killing tvp, omg the list goes on) you would laugh that my win rate is so good. Honestly I'm not saying I'm good (yeah I make new accounts and D-C- bash all day, I never plan on putting the dedication in to play super competitively) If u honestly think iccup stats matter check my stats account -- petzergling597 . 1v1 faggot?
1. Lets not even start talking about individual unit statistics becuase thats stupid as shit and can go back and forth forever, let me give you an example. you can make a unit that has such long range it can shoot my units from off the screen, deals more damage then any 3 of my units combined, and its SPLASH damage. I am NOT saying 2fac is cheese, I'm saying DTs arent any cheesier then 2fac or even facport. If you scout a protoss and he has a goon blocking his ramp, make a fucking ebay, because every good protoss will send their goons out to pressure you as soon as they get them, and if they dont, MAKE A FUCKING EBAY. Also, no amount of goon micro in the world will allow 1gate goons to hold a 2fac.
2. Even if it was true that its impossible for zerg to win without cheese, it certainly IS possible to win WITH cheese, so how is that imbalanced? And no matter what you say, it will never be as imbalanced as it was the other way around for the first 9 years of starcraft. And also, 2 years ago i wasnt playing fastest, i wasnt even playing starcraft, because i had quit playing it seriously 3 years ago, and im still probably better then you.
3. When i see those games, i dont join them, because i am P, idiot. However, this is not what you said, you said P players will kick other P players from the game when they pick P as their race. This has never happened to me. I dont understand how it can happen to you either if your not a protoss player
4. I have no fucking clue what your talking about in the first part of this paragraph, but I never said ICCUP stats matter, i suggested Iccup rank matters. And i guess i should have rephrased that to if you ever got past C-, oh well big deal i was one rank off. I would love to 1v1 you, if your seriously challenging me, shoot me a pm
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On January 06 2009 12:16 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 12:11 TheTruthTeller wrote:
hum....ok . This needs to stop. We have a consensus here that Protoss is the easiest race at low levels (obviously).
What most people fail to realize however is that Protoss is also the easiest race at the highest levels of gaming. The gap of relative difficulty between the 3 races might be narrower at this level but some facts remain;
1.High HP Unit, Limited Unit special-Abilities ...easier micro
2.Longer unit build time, easier macro
3.Easy expansion setup, easier macro
4.Ability to hotkey your entire army in control groups, easier micro
5.Ability to freely mix your unit composition in each group, easier micro
Do you think that these 5 points do not apply at the pro-gaming level? The intensity of the game is higher, but these facts remain. The difference is that progaming Protosses are doing simple tasks at a higher speed and with better precision whereas progaming T and Z users are doing hard tasks at an insane speed with still higher precision. To say that at the highest level of Starcraft, all 3 races are equally difficult to play is simply inaccurate. Yes, the difference in relative difficulty might not be as blatant as it is at the lower levels, but Protoss remains the easiest race at all levels of play. ....SOMEBODY CLOSE THIS DAMNED THREAD ALREADY BEFORE IT GETS WORSE
But it can get worse, Alchemist and Mercury good for Toss fans hmm?
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On January 06 2009 12:26 daz wrote:
4. I have no fucking clue what your talking about in the first part of this paragraph, but I never said ICCUP stats matter, i suggested Iccup rank matters. And i guess i should have rephrased that to if you ever got past C-, oh well big deal i was one rank off. I would love to 1v1 you, if your seriously challenging me, shoot me a pm
If you guys play show me repz plz, i love watching grudge matches
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On January 06 2009 11:53 ZeKk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 11:36 koreasilver wrote:On January 06 2009 10:20 ZeKk wrote:I know that Infernal But they never quit expanding. But toss always got a couple of thousands more in economy even if T has the same amount of expos or is sligthly behind. which is wierd imo. If both plays fe t get's behind in eco. It happens in pro games too, only they can beat it due to thier superior skill. Koreasilver I would like to see you contain and secure all the expos on python. You know you have only 15 minuts to stop him from taking all the expos and that includs attackings. Artosis is right but too bad you need 10+ games/day to learn that. We all should get the chance to enjoy this game on equal condition. u gotta agree about that. Just hope it sc2 will be more balanced or atleast favouring T Out of argue so raped lol
lol, since you went out of your way to be the first idiot from TL.net to send me a pm for disagreeing with your obviously clueless arguments, I'll play along with you.
One of the basic rule of thumbs in PvT is that if the Terran and Protoss are at equal bases, the Terran has the advantage. If a Protoss is getting a significantly greater amount of resources than you at equal bases than either the Protoss has a far superior ability to macro than you, your macro fucking blows, or both.
A Terran doesn't need to secure all the expos on Python to beat a Protoss. The nat is extremely easy for the Terran to defend on the map and I have often seen Terrans beat a Protoss with a lesser amount of bases. From my limited understanding as a Zerg player, the advantage that the Protoss has against the Terran becomes smaller as the game goes under "normal" circumstances due to the extremely low supply cost of Terran units and the ridiculous increase in power from upgrades compared to Protoss units.
But even before all that, if you're letting the protoss take ALL the expos and you aren't punishing him for it, then you have no one to blame but yourself for your obvious shortcomings.
For so many years Protoss was considered the worst race, and now that the metagame has shifted in their favour, which will likely only be temporary, you think that the entire game is unbalanced in favour of Protoss? Have you ever even taken into consideration the most imbalanced matchup in the game that is in favour of Terran?
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
On January 05 2009 22:42 0xDEADBEEF wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 22:19 MyLostTemple wrote:
lots of retards on this thread.
p is only easy at low levels. all races are REALLY hard at high level play. just because some of you retards currently see p dominating (for the 1st time in 11 years) doesn't mean it's suddenly an easy race at high level play. EasiER, not easy. This is a very important distinction here. Obviously high-level P playing requires lots of speed and skill which only very few players will reach AT ALL. But among these few players who DO reach this level, there are ~60-70% Protoss players. And THAT is the problem. I'm sure most of the players complaining about P wouldn't complain about them if it was just 1 or 2 P gosus (e.g. Bisu and Stork) dominating. We're used to 1 or 2 bonjwas at a time - Boxer/Yellow, July/Oov, Savior, Bisu. But today, it's not just one or two. It's fucking SIX of them ("the six dragons" - sounds nice, but in fact it's a huge problem for SC). And all of them are in the top 10 KeSPA. And on top foreigner level the majority is Protoss too. If you STILL argue that P is only easy at low levels, you're just really retarded or ignorant or didn't look how well all P players are doing at the moment. Once you look at the actual race distributions you have to notice that something's definitely wrong. But I guess P players will always say that P is only the easiest at low levels, which is just PART of the truth (the truth is that it's also the easiest on top foreign level and now *apparently* even the easiest in Korea too), after all who wants to be laughed at for playing the easiest race? Anyway. P will continue to dominate in 2009 if it goes on like this, and this discussion will pop up again and again. Sometimes, the majority is right after all... We'll probably need new maps which nerf Protoss, or a new balance patch (which won't happen). Or maybe no one even cares anymore about the state of SC and it'll just go on like this until SC2 is released and SC1 dies. Maybe the vast majority of SC players and fans like Protoss that they don't care.
wow
are you pretending to know what the fuck you're talking about? apparently you're not too good at it. do you realize there have been huge portions of SC history where terran has had a TON of players who were dominating? almost half of SC history has been spent with big chunks of terran players owning hardcore with a few zergs and protosses in between. it was very VERY similar to what you're seeing with protoss domination today. this is the first time ever in sc history you see a bunch of protoss players dominating after 11 years and all of a sudden some genius like you figured out that they were the easiest race after all. good work detective, looks like this case is closed.
obviously maps are favoring protoss in major korean tournaments but this dosn't suddenly make protoss an easier race at high levels.
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
oh and i'm not saying terran is easier at high levels either
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On January 06 2009 12:26 daz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 02:35 petzergling wrote:On January 05 2009 13:05 daz wrote:
[
a few points that I wanna throw about this post that was clearly inspired by nerdrage
1. what the fuck is so imba about DT rush? if you dont scout it and you dont prepare for it you will die, just like if i dont scout your 2fac and dont prepare for it i will also die.
2. So wait what your saying here is dt rushing is imba so its gay, but its ok for zerg to cheese?
Even if it is that imbalanced, suck it up princess, its not nearly as imbalanced as zvp used to be for 8 years, payback is a bitch huh?
3. In 70-80 games this season and around the same last season and a few seasons ago this has yet to happen to me.
4. if you got past D+ maybe you wouldnt get cheesed so much. But you probably never will. 1. DTs are the most overpowered unit in the game, they do more damage then battlecruisers and are permanently cloaked. If I could build permanently cloaked battlecruisers instead of wraiths It would be totally overpowered. If you dont scout it (impossible because protoss just blocks ramp with 1 goon and you always scout them last on python) and you prepare for it they never actually do dts, and its much more difficult for a learning player to use proper ebay timing based off of scouting information then it is for toss to go citadel->templar archives (add robo bay if u pylon block urself or forget ur 1 dragoon). The only reason you die if you dont scout 2 fact is because ur micro is bad. Terran siege tank/mine micro is so much more unforgiving then goon micro dont even pretend like 2 facting is cheese. 2. Yeah because protoss units are imbalanced and it is impossible for zerg to win without cheese. 2 years ago I'm sure u were playing fastest so cry about imbalance more scrub 3. Happens to me all the time. Do you never see games that say 1v1 [rank] NO P, because thats exactly what it is. 4. Yeah I fuck around on iccup a shitton, and if you knew some of the builds that I do (nuke rush, battlecruiser rush, SK terran vrs protoss(lol emp), trying to win games with only manner buildings/probes, ling slowdrop, proxy hatchery, proxy barracks fake FD, vulture mine + lockdown tvp, archon only zvp, starship troopers, firebat+valkyrie+tank tvz, cloak wraith + m&m obs killing tvp, omg the list goes on) you would laugh that my win rate is so good. Honestly I'm not saying I'm good (yeah I make new accounts and D-C- bash all day, I never plan on putting the dedication in to play super competitively) If u honestly think iccup stats matter check my stats account -- petzergling597 . 1v1 faggot? 1. Lets not even start talking about individual unit statistics becuase thats stupid as shit and can go back and forth forever, let me give you an example. you can make a unit that has such long range it can shoot my units from off the screen, deals more damage then any 3 of my units combined, and its SPLASH damage. I am NOT saying 2fac is cheese, I'm saying DTs arent any cheesier then 2fac or even facport. If you scout a protoss and he has a goon blocking his ramp, make a fucking ebay, because every good protoss will send their goons out to pressure you as soon as they get them, and if they dont, MAKE A FUCKING EBAY. Also, no amount of goon micro in the world will allow 1gate goons to hold a 2fac.
siege tank does more damage then reaver + dt + dragoon combined?
good to know
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
On January 06 2009 02:35 petzergling wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 13:05 daz wrote:
[
a few points that I wanna throw about this post that was clearly inspired by nerdrage
1. what the fuck is so imba about DT rush? if you dont scout it and you dont prepare for it you will die, just like if i dont scout your 2fac and dont prepare for it i will also die.
2. So wait what your saying here is dt rushing is imba so its gay, but its ok for zerg to cheese?
Even if it is that imbalanced, suck it up princess, its not nearly as imbalanced as zvp used to be for 8 years, payback is a bitch huh?
3. In 70-80 games this season and around the same last season and a few seasons ago this has yet to happen to me.
4. if you got past D+ maybe you wouldnt get cheesed so much. But you probably never will. 1. DTs are the most overpowered unit in the game, they do more damage then battlecruisers and are permanently cloaked. If I could build permanently cloaked battlecruisers instead of wraiths It would be totally overpowered. If you dont scout it (impossible because protoss just blocks ramp with 1 goon and you always scout them last on python) and you prepare for it they never actually do dts, and its much more difficult for a learning player to use proper ebay timing based off of scouting information then it is for toss to go citadel->templar archives (add robo bay if u pylon block urself or forget ur 1 dragoon). The only reason you die if you dont scout 2 fact is because ur micro is bad. Terran siege tank/mine micro is so much more unforgiving then goon micro dont even pretend like 2 facting is cheese. 2. Yeah because protoss units are imbalanced and it is impossible for zerg to win without cheese. 2 years ago I'm sure u were playing fastest so cry about imbalance more scrub 3. Happens to me all the time. Do you never see games that say 1v1 [rank] NO P, because thats exactly what it is. 4. Yeah I fuck around on iccup a shitton, and if you knew some of the builds that I do (nuke rush, battlecruiser rush, SK terran vrs protoss(lol emp), trying to win games with only manner buildings/probes, ling slowdrop, proxy hatchery, proxy barracks fake FD, vulture mine + lockdown tvp, archon only zvp, starship troopers, firebat+valkyrie+tank tvz, cloak wraith + m&m obs killing tvp, omg the list goes on) you would laugh that my win rate is so good. Honestly I'm not saying I'm good (yeah I make new accounts and D-C- bash all day, I never plan on putting the dedication in to play super competitively) If u honestly think iccup stats matter check my stats account -- petzergling597 . 1v1 faggot?
oh and this guy is a fucking idiot.
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Can someone please close this? T_T
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On January 06 2009 12:45 MyLostTemple wrote:
oh and i'm not saying terran is easier at high levels either
Your post didn't come off as you implying that .
Also i missed that guys post.. this isn't dota, you can't just nerf something if people cry imba, and protoss isn't imba anyway. At lower levels it isn't imba, it is just easier to learn, but even though it's easier to learn, it still takes a shit load of effort to learn it.
Imba =/= Easier
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I dunno about you guys, but I can win ZvP on Destination without cheesing. I think ZvP is fairly even, depending on maps.
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On January 06 2009 12:44 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 11:53 ZeKk wrote:On January 06 2009 11:36 koreasilver wrote:On January 06 2009 10:20 ZeKk wrote:I know that Infernal But they never quit expanding. But toss always got a couple of thousands more in economy even if T has the same amount of expos or is sligthly behind. which is wierd imo. If both plays fe t get's behind in eco. It happens in pro games too, only they can beat it due to thier superior skill. Koreasilver I would like to see you contain and secure all the expos on python. You know you have only 15 minuts to stop him from taking all the expos and that includs attackings. Artosis is right but too bad you need 10+ games/day to learn that. We all should get the chance to enjoy this game on equal condition. u gotta agree about that. Just hope it sc2 will be more balanced or atleast favouring T Out of argue so raped lol lol, since you went out of your way to be the first idiot from TL.net to send me a pm for disagreeing with your obviously clueless arguments, I'll play along with you. One of the basic rule of thumbs in PvT is that if the Terran and Protoss are at equal bases, the Terran has the advantage. If a Protoss is getting a significantly greater amount of resources than you at equal bases than either the Protoss has a far superior ability to macro than you, your macro fucking blows, or both. A Terran doesn't need to secure all the expos on Python to beat a Protoss. The nat is extremely easy for the Terran to defend on the map and I have often seen Terrans beat a Protoss with a lesser amount of bases. From my limited understanding as a Zerg player, the advantage that the Protoss has against the Terran becomes smaller as the game goes under "normal" circumstances due to the extremely low supply cost of Terran units and the ridiculous increase in power from upgrades compared to Protoss units. But even before all that, if you're letting the protoss take ALL the expos and you aren't punishing him for it, then you have no one to blame but yourself for your obvious shortcomings. For so many years Protoss was considered the worst race, and now that the metagame has shifted in their favour, which will likely only be temporary, you think that the entire game is unbalanced in favour of Protoss? Have you ever even taken into consideration the most imbalanced matchup in the game that is in favour of Terran?
What do you expect when ur putting up a picture like that with no explination? Im just a stupid noob who has no clue over my skill. Nither does you, there's always some1 better. How the pro's would laugh at u. Idiot!
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Your arguments had no substance, so I thought it was a waste of time to even argue with you. Just now you just basically admitted that you're clueless, so doesn't that just completely undermine your already flawed arguments?
Your last three sentences are also rather irrelevant to your argument and mine.
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tasteless you need to calm down and read my post lol
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
On January 06 2009 12:11 TheTruthTeller wrote:
hum....ok . This needs to stop. We have a consensus here that Protoss is the easiest race at low levels (obviously).
What most people fail to realize however is that Protoss is also the easiest race at the highest levels of gaming. The gap of relative difficulty between the 3 races might be narrower at this level but some facts remain;
1.High HP Unit, Limited Unit special-Abilities ...easier micro
2.Longer unit build time, easier macro
3.Easy expansion setup, easier macro
4.Ability to hotkey your entire army in control groups, easier micro
5.Ability to freely mix your unit composition in each group, easier micro
Do you think that these 5 points do not apply at the pro-gaming level? The intensity of the game is higher, but these facts remain. The difference is that progaming Protosses are doing simple tasks at a higher speed and with better precision whereas progaming T and Z users are doing hard tasks at an insane speed with still higher precision. To say that at the highest level of Starcraft, all 3 races are equally difficult to play is simply inaccurate. Yes, the difference in relative difficulty might not be as blatant as it is at the lower levels, but Protoss remains the easiest race at all levels of play.
oh thanks truthteller, i almost missed your bullshit post too.
protoss is different, not easier. do you realize how unforgiving protoss is at early stages of the game? you can NOT fuck up with any of your early units early on because you don't get many of them. have you ever lost your shuttle in a pvt? that unit with vision just a little bit more than a turret? what about losing the 1st observer when you need to break a lurker contain... you know that slow as fuck unit that dies almost instantly. protoss is a precision based race, look at protoss base setup, they have to wall off with pylons everywhere on the map in pvt, you can't just randomly throw pylons down anywhere. protoss HAVE to mix their control groups or their flanks get fucked up (except the 1st group in pvt because that has to be goons). sure units make slower but protoss is also making the most complex unit combination's at times. look at pvz, you have to have incredibly precise unit mixtures or you get fucked in the late game.
all the races require incredibly different skill sets. don't oversimplify.
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for low-mid levels protoss is easiest.
are you really disputing that? Nobody (I hope) is saying bisu is a noob
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The protoss domination we're seeing today was nothing compared to the 03/04 Boxer or the late04/05 oov. Or even Flash last year.
Doesn't even really compare to the domination we saw from Savior in 06.
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Well to be fair, Savior's domination was just Savior dominating, not the Zerg race as a whole. Savior thrived in the Zerg graveyards.
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I agree a lot of Tasteless here. Protoss, from my experience, seems to require less APM than other races, but that doesn't make them easier. Sure, APM's a factor, but it's definitely not the only one.
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lol, I love my new best buddy from TL.net.
From: ZeKk
Subject: ..
Date: 1/6/09 13:30
Ur jumping the conclusion and twisting my word. Clueless? A noob dosen't need to be clueless.
Everybody know's it takes more skill to play T than P on a low level. Im sure u know that. I just think it's wrong you have to be THAT good to play on an even level! That's my point. I overexatrated somewhat sure. And u probably know the theory better.
Why are u being so arrogant? u think ur smart with ur fancy word? Striving for attention on the internet when mom dosen't give u at home? Or what is it. U can tell me, honest!
He sounds kinda young.
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Hmm possibly,
but publicly posting PM's is just as childish in my opinion.
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On January 06 2009 12:46 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 12:26 daz wrote:On January 06 2009 02:35 petzergling wrote:On January 05 2009 13:05 daz wrote:
[
a few points that I wanna throw about this post that was clearly inspired by nerdrage
1. what the fuck is so imba about DT rush? if you dont scout it and you dont prepare for it you will die, just like if i dont scout your 2fac and dont prepare for it i will also die.
2. So wait what your saying here is dt rushing is imba so its gay, but its ok for zerg to cheese?
Even if it is that imbalanced, suck it up princess, its not nearly as imbalanced as zvp used to be for 8 years, payback is a bitch huh?
3. In 70-80 games this season and around the same last season and a few seasons ago this has yet to happen to me.
4. if you got past D+ maybe you wouldnt get cheesed so much. But you probably never will. 1. DTs are the most overpowered unit in the game, they do more damage then battlecruisers and are permanently cloaked. If I could build permanently cloaked battlecruisers instead of wraiths It would be totally overpowered. If you dont scout it (impossible because protoss just blocks ramp with 1 goon and you always scout them last on python) and you prepare for it they never actually do dts, and its much more difficult for a learning player to use proper ebay timing based off of scouting information then it is for toss to go citadel->templar archives (add robo bay if u pylon block urself or forget ur 1 dragoon). The only reason you die if you dont scout 2 fact is because ur micro is bad. Terran siege tank/mine micro is so much more unforgiving then goon micro dont even pretend like 2 facting is cheese. 2. Yeah because protoss units are imbalanced and it is impossible for zerg to win without cheese. 2 years ago I'm sure u were playing fastest so cry about imbalance more scrub 3. Happens to me all the time. Do you never see games that say 1v1 [rank] NO P, because thats exactly what it is. 4. Yeah I fuck around on iccup a shitton, and if you knew some of the builds that I do (nuke rush, battlecruiser rush, SK terran vrs protoss(lol emp), trying to win games with only manner buildings/probes, ling slowdrop, proxy hatchery, proxy barracks fake FD, vulture mine + lockdown tvp, archon only zvp, starship troopers, firebat+valkyrie+tank tvz, cloak wraith + m&m obs killing tvp, omg the list goes on) you would laugh that my win rate is so good. Honestly I'm not saying I'm good (yeah I make new accounts and D-C- bash all day, I never plan on putting the dedication in to play super competitively) If u honestly think iccup stats matter check my stats account -- petzergling597 . 1v1 faggot? 1. Lets not even start talking about individual unit statistics becuase thats stupid as shit and can go back and forth forever, let me give you an example. you can make a unit that has such long range it can shoot my units from off the screen, deals more damage then any 3 of my units combined, and its SPLASH damage. I am NOT saying 2fac is cheese, I'm saying DTs arent any cheesier then 2fac or even facport. If you scout a protoss and he has a goon blocking his ramp, make a fucking ebay, because every good protoss will send their goons out to pressure you as soon as they get them, and if they dont, MAKE A FUCKING EBAY. Also, no amount of goon micro in the world will allow 1gate goons to hold a 2fac. siege tank does more damage then reaver + dt + dragoon combined? good to know
i meant any 3 units in my army, meaning that tank does more damage then 3 goons or even 4 zealots
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I posted in a closed thread! Again!
Honestly, what's the whole point of this, I bet the mods are just leaving this open to give an example of a bad thread.
Too many of you are comparing one section or specific scenario to the other, but guess what, we're talking about the entire race, not one unit or one situation or whatnot.
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On January 06 2009 12:48 Dead9 wrote:
Can someone please close this? T_T
Seriously.
This thread should have been closed 17 pages ago IMO. OP was the most irresistable of flame bait.
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Koreasilver it's ppl like u that make this thread worse than it could be. Posting that here shows more of u than me. Have you ever listen to some1 else or you just hear what u wanna hear? I guess I was right about ur strive of attention. Im done arguing here against u with things that aren't relevant to the thread. This thread has gone out of it's line.
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(Though this has been said thousands of times) When people say Protoss is easy, they are generally referring to the lower APM that is required, and the less micro that is required, all at the lower levels of course (C/D) to succeed. That, by no means, means it is actually easier than any other race. It's easy right now to think Protoss is the best race, but that happens to be because of a few really good gamers, a few Protoss balanced maps, and the way the meta-game has shifted and the lack of adjustments from other races right now. It'll change in due time. No race is easier/harder than the other in the long run. Yes, M&M micro is hard. Yes, Muta Micro is hard. That doesn't mean your race is any weaker or this game is (noticeably) imbalanced. It just so happens that (logically, due to mechanical reasons) protoss is easier when facing opponents of lower skill level...maybe.
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terran - 3 bonjwa
zerg - 1 bonjwa
protoss - none yet ( Bisu is getting there )
Protoss is easy for noobs but at a pro level it is most difficult.
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On January 06 2009 13:24 MyLostTemple wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 12:11 TheTruthTeller wrote:
hum....ok . This needs to stop. We have a consensus here that Protoss is the easiest race at low levels (obviously).
What most people fail to realize however is that Protoss is also the easiest race at the highest levels of gaming. The gap of relative difficulty between the 3 races might be narrower at this level but some facts remain;
1.High HP Unit, Limited Unit special-Abilities ...easier micro
2.Longer unit build time, easier macro
3.Easy expansion setup, easier macro
4.Ability to hotkey your entire army in control groups, easier micro
5.Ability to freely mix your unit composition in each group, easier micro
Do you think that these 5 points do not apply at the pro-gaming level? The intensity of the game is higher, but these facts remain. The difference is that progaming Protosses are doing simple tasks at a higher speed and with better precision whereas progaming T and Z users are doing hard tasks at an insane speed with still higher precision. To say that at the highest level of Starcraft, all 3 races are equally difficult to play is simply inaccurate. Yes, the difference in relative difficulty might not be as blatant as it is at the lower levels, but Protoss remains the easiest race at all levels of play. oh thanks truthteller, i almost missed your bullshit post too. protoss is different, not easier. do you realize how unforgiving protoss is at early stages of the game? you can NOT fuck up with any of your early units early on because you don't get many of them. have you ever lost your shuttle in a pvt? that unit with vision just a little bit more than a turret? what about losing the 1st observer when you need to break a lurker contain... you know that slow as fuck unit that dies almost instantly. protoss is a precision based race, look at protoss base setup, they have to wall off with pylons everywhere on the map in pvt, you can't just randomly throw pylons down anywhere. protoss HAVE to mix their control groups or their flanks get fucked up (except the 1st group in pvt because that has to be goons). sure units make slower but protoss is also making the most complex unit combination's at times. look at pvz, you have to have incredibly precise unit mixtures or you get fucked in the late game. all the races require incredibly different skill sets. don't oversimplify.
- Pros almost never lose a shuttle because they have great multitask/micro and attention - they almost always react immediately when the shuttle comes into turret range. So this is only a problem for low skilled players like us
- Early stages of the game are relatively easy for pros - it only gets problematic in late game when the game speed and number of tasks to do simultaneously is too high. Seriously, almost no pro fucks up in early game (unless he went for cheese which failed, or he was too greedy and didn't play the "best" safe build order), due to great build orders and tons of training in the very same situations - it's really all about mid and late game these days. So this is almost a non-issue on pro level
Btw forgot one stupid thing too which also favors Protoss:
- DTs do 40 dmg which kills drones, probes and lings in 1 hit (but not SCV), and when killing a unit in 1 hit it doesn't give you a message that you're under attack. This also really favors Protoss and I've even seen it on pro level where Zerg lost the entire drone count in one base just because of 1-2 DTs which were dropped there and the Z didn't notice it because he was busy somewhere else. If you are under attack you should KNOW. Terran does know, btw, because DTs need 2 hits per SCV, so he gets the message. Zerg has to constantly monitor his drones (look for blood splats) in order to prevent this from happening - which is an unnecessary extra task, making it even harder.
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On January 06 2009 10:20 ZeKk wrote:I know that Infernal But they never quit expanding. But toss always got a couple of thousands more in economy even if T has the same amount of expos or is sligthly behind. which is wierd imo. If both plays fe t get's behind in eco. It happens in pro games too, only they can beat it due to thier superior skill. Koreasilver I would like to see you contain and secure all the expos on python. You know you have only 15 minuts to stop him from taking all the expos and that includs attackings. Artosis is right but too bad you need 10+ games/day to learn that. We all should get the chance to enjoy this game on equal condition. u gotta agree about that. Just hope it sc2 will be more balanced or atleast favouring T
Actually a quote from yellow talks about how terran eat up there economy the slowest, and protoss the fastest. They talk ab how protoss have to think expos ahead bc probes mine faster, and how there units melt against terran, so they need a huge economy to support it. If ur that far behind, then again like it was said b4, your just not doing good. You don't need to contain when u can death march ur units across the map. Plus, lots of expos = spread defense, so u some vults and there probe count drops. The reason y toss needs all that money again is bc ur tanks will melt there army, so they have to replace b4 u can replace urs. So plz, stop being silly and play ur race right.
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Btw forgot one stupid thing too which also favors Protoss:
- DTs do 40 dmg which kills drones, probes and lings in 1 hit (but not SCV), and when killing a unit in 1 hit it doesn't give you a message that you're under attack. This also really favors Protoss and I've even seen it on pro level where Zerg lost the entire drone count in one base just because of 1-2 DTs which were dropped there and the Z didn't notice it because he was busy somewhere else. If you are under attack you should KNOW. Terran does know, btw, because DTs need 2 hits per SCV, so he gets the message. Zerg has to constantly monitor his drones (look for blood splats) in order to prevent this from happening - which is an unnecessary extra task, making it even harder.
This is due to Zerg greediness/laziness/arrogance, which is just plain stupid. Sunk spore or just plain sunk ovie if there are not corsairs in the air. This will prevent pretty much all DT harass at an expo unless the P uses double DT.
I mean, even Protoss build cannons to prevent lurker drops. Why can't Z guard against DTs?
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oh thanks truthteller, i almost missed your bullshit post too.
protoss is different, not easier. do you realize how unforgiving protoss is at early stages of the game? you can NOT fuck up with any of your early units early on because you don't get many of them. have you ever lost your shuttle in a pvt? that unit with vision just a little bit more than a turret? what about losing the 1st observer when you need to break a lurker contain... you know that slow as fuck unit that dies almost instantly. protoss is a precision based race, look at protoss base setup, they have to wall off with pylons everywhere on the map in pvt, you can't just randomly throw pylons down anywhere. protoss HAVE to mix their control groups or their flanks get fucked up (except the 1st group in pvt because that has to be goons). sure units make slower but protoss is also making the most complex unit combination's at times. look at pvz, you have to have incredibly precise unit mixtures or you get fucked in the late game.
all the races require incredibly different skill sets. don't oversimplify.
- Pros almost never lose a shuttle because they have great multitask/micro and attention - they almost always react immediately when the shuttle comes into turret range. So this is only a problem for low skilled players like us
- Early stages of the game are relatively easy for pros - it only gets problematic in late game when the game speed and number of tasks to do simultaneously is too high. Seriously, almost no pro fucks up in early game (unless he went for cheese which failed, or he was too greedy and didn't play the "best" safe build order), due to great build orders and tons of training in the very same situations - it's really all about mid and late game these days. So this is almost a non-issue on pro level
Btw forgot one stupid thing too which also favors Protoss:
- DTs do 40 dmg which kills drones, probes and lings in 1 hit (but not SCV), and when killing a unit in 1 hit it doesn't give you a message that you're under attack. This also really favors Protoss and I've even seen it on pro level where Zerg lost the entire drone count in one base just because of 1-2 DTs which were dropped there and the Z didn't notice it because he was busy somewhere else. If you are under attack you should KNOW. Terran does know, btw, because DTs need 2 hits per SCV, so he gets the message. Zerg has to constantly monitor his drones (look for blood splats) in order to prevent this from happening - which is an unnecessary extra task, making it even harder.
I know that it may seem hard but u must also consider that dts are horrible visible to zergs. U have to have ovies, so just put them in the right places and there ya go. zerg is the most mobile race so dt drops are rather hard to pull of on low levels, though i know this may seem a shoker. To pull off a good dt drop u need to distract the enemy zerg, like bisu and stork, which is hard when u dont have apm. So basically ur forced to try a dt drop at a place that may or may not have ovies, and sense u didnt distract anything they can notice it, or better foil it with sunkens. terran, can gripe ab dts bc at low level scans arent as good, and dts can take turrets out, which again since were talking ab low level players, means there will b good dt micro since they have no multitask. just saying
aslo late game ive said this repeatably, is hard as a low level player. Y, bc where as terran is using the same mech units they have the whole game, protoss needs to use storms, arbs, sometimes reavers,, arbs, and carriers (carriers being the easiest at low levels bc thats all theyll focus on) but again, thats a lota units with abilities to pay attention to, vs just tanks and vults with some goliaths. It sucks watching jangbi storm bc we cant pull that off w/o getting temps killed in the process, or losing all our goons, y, bc were bad. Where as terran just walks all over our army. Spider mines, tank fire, and even vult fire, leads to destroyed armies bc we dont know how to spread and deal.
Vs zerg its very hard to keep up with zerg units as a low level player, especially lurkers, that own noobs all day.
Early game, sure may b easier, late game, is kinda difficult, bc protoss late game units are hard to manage, vs, ultra ling, or mech push, well imo, but i think i can say it with confidence.
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
i think u messed up ur quotes ender
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yeah i did but idk how to fix it
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On January 06 2009 16:00 gk_ender wrote:yeah i did but idk how to fix it
you're probably missing a [/quote] just before you added your own words
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On January 06 2009 15:56 MyLostTemple wrote:
i think u messed up ur quotes ender
Isnt this tastless or artosis?
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idk i cant figure the quote thing out its prob a simple fix lol
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On January 06 2009 16:03 cz wrote:you're probably missing a [./quote] just before you added your own words
More than that. He has 3-4 [quote] declarations and only 1 [./quote].
To fix this you must put the same number of [./quote] clauses (without the dot) as [quote] ones.
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On January 06 2009 16:03 gk_ender wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 15:56 MyLostTemple wrote:
i think u messed up ur quotes ender Isnt this tastless or artosis?
I don't know...I wish his signature stored some kind of clue!
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On January 06 2009 16:09 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 16:03 gk_ender wrote:On January 06 2009 15:56 MyLostTemple wrote:
i think u messed up ur quotes ender Isnt this tastless or artosis? I don't know...I wish his signature stored some kind of clue!
Lol i love how i didnt read it
I got owned
gg on the call
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
On January 06 2009 15:23 0xDEADBEEF wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 13:24 MyLostTemple wrote:On January 06 2009 12:11 TheTruthTeller wrote:
hum....ok . This needs to stop. We have a consensus here that Protoss is the easiest race at low levels (obviously).
What most people fail to realize however is that Protoss is also the easiest race at the highest levels of gaming. The gap of relative difficulty between the 3 races might be narrower at this level but some facts remain;
1.High HP Unit, Limited Unit special-Abilities ...easier micro
2.Longer unit build time, easier macro
3.Easy expansion setup, easier macro
4.Ability to hotkey your entire army in control groups, easier micro
5.Ability to freely mix your unit composition in each group, easier micro
Do you think that these 5 points do not apply at the pro-gaming level? The intensity of the game is higher, but these facts remain. The difference is that progaming Protosses are doing simple tasks at a higher speed and with better precision whereas progaming T and Z users are doing hard tasks at an insane speed with still higher precision. To say that at the highest level of Starcraft, all 3 races are equally difficult to play is simply inaccurate. Yes, the difference in relative difficulty might not be as blatant as it is at the lower levels, but Protoss remains the easiest race at all levels of play. oh thanks truthteller, i almost missed your bullshit post too. protoss is different, not easier. do you realize how unforgiving protoss is at early stages of the game? you can NOT fuck up with any of your early units early on because you don't get many of them. have you ever lost your shuttle in a pvt? that unit with vision just a little bit more than a turret? what about losing the 1st observer when you need to break a lurker contain... you know that slow as fuck unit that dies almost instantly. protoss is a precision based race, look at protoss base setup, they have to wall off with pylons everywhere on the map in pvt, you can't just randomly throw pylons down anywhere. protoss HAVE to mix their control groups or their flanks get fucked up (except the 1st group in pvt because that has to be goons). sure units make slower but protoss is also making the most complex unit combination's at times. look at pvz, you have to have incredibly precise unit mixtures or you get fucked in the late game. all the races require incredibly different skill sets. don't oversimplify. - Pros almost never lose a shuttle because they have great multitask/micro and attention - they almost always react immediately when the shuttle comes into turret range. So this is only a problem for low skilled players like us - Early stages of the game are relatively easy for pros - it only gets problematic in late game when the game speed and number of tasks to do simultaneously is too high. Seriously, almost no pro fucks up in early game (unless he went for cheese which failed, or he was too greedy and didn't play the "best" safe build order), due to great build orders and tons of training in the very same situations - it's really all about mid and late game these days. So this is almost a non-issue on pro level Btw forgot one stupid thing too which also favors Protoss: - DTs do 40 dmg which kills drones, probes and lings in 1 hit (but not SCV), and when killing a unit in 1 hit it doesn't give you a message that you're under attack. This also really favors Protoss and I've even seen it on pro level where Zerg lost the entire drone count in one base just because of 1-2 DTs which were dropped there and the Z didn't notice it because he was busy somewhere else. If you are under attack you should KNOW. Terran does know, btw, because DTs need 2 hits per SCV, so he gets the message. Zerg has to constantly monitor his drones (look for blood splats) in order to prevent this from happening - which is an unnecessary extra task, making it even harder.
you're making my head hurt.
are you going to tell me what pros find easy and hard? you're just asserting a bunch of stuff like you are completely unable to back up. i'm almost under the impression that you're projecting your own understanding of the game onto how a progamer plays. microing a shuttle around a terrans base is not some easy thing you can just brush off. it takes a lot of concentration.
have you ever compared a DT to a vulture? you know... that unit that costs 75 minerals, comes with 3 mines and is capable of killing a probe in two hits? those mines that occasionally blow up 3/4ths of my probes because my dragoons bug out and wont move away from the mines when they're planted in my worker line? yeah those things can kill a lot more a lot faster than a dt can but it dosn't mean T is really easy to play.
what about the strenght of a defiler in TvZ? that unit that can make a dark swarm and fuck up an entire terrans push sending him back to square one. that unit can cast dark swarm over and over and over with ease, even before irradiate kills it--irradiate being the only real counter to dark swarm. Is zerg suddenly an easy race to play?
look lets cut to the chase. you suck vs DTs and you lose to them all the time. it's ok; we get it. go put your god damn overlords at your expansion and stop saying protoss is easy to play.
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On January 06 2009 16:12 MyLostTemple wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 15:23 0xDEADBEEF wrote:On January 06 2009 13:24 MyLostTemple wrote:On January 06 2009 12:11 TheTruthTeller wrote:
hum....ok . This needs to stop. We have a consensus here that Protoss is the easiest race at low levels (obviously).
What most people fail to realize however is that Protoss is also the easiest race at the highest levels of gaming. The gap of relative difficulty between the 3 races might be narrower at this level but some facts remain;
1.High HP Unit, Limited Unit special-Abilities ...easier micro
2.Longer unit build time, easier macro
3.Easy expansion setup, easier macro
4.Ability to hotkey your entire army in control groups, easier micro
5.Ability to freely mix your unit composition in each group, easier micro
Do you think that these 5 points do not apply at the pro-gaming level? The intensity of the game is higher, but these facts remain. The difference is that progaming Protosses are doing simple tasks at a higher speed and with better precision whereas progaming T and Z users are doing hard tasks at an insane speed with still higher precision. To say that at the highest level of Starcraft, all 3 races are equally difficult to play is simply inaccurate. Yes, the difference in relative difficulty might not be as blatant as it is at the lower levels, but Protoss remains the easiest race at all levels of play. oh thanks truthteller, i almost missed your bullshit post too. protoss is different, not easier. do you realize how unforgiving protoss is at early stages of the game? you can NOT fuck up with any of your early units early on because you don't get many of them. have you ever lost your shuttle in a pvt? that unit with vision just a little bit more than a turret? what about losing the 1st observer when you need to break a lurker contain... you know that slow as fuck unit that dies almost instantly. protoss is a precision based race, look at protoss base setup, they have to wall off with pylons everywhere on the map in pvt, you can't just randomly throw pylons down anywhere. protoss HAVE to mix their control groups or their flanks get fucked up (except the 1st group in pvt because that has to be goons). sure units make slower but protoss is also making the most complex unit combination's at times. look at pvz, you have to have incredibly precise unit mixtures or you get fucked in the late game. all the races require incredibly different skill sets. don't oversimplify. - Pros almost never lose a shuttle because they have great multitask/micro and attention - they almost always react immediately when the shuttle comes into turret range. So this is only a problem for low skilled players like us - Early stages of the game are relatively easy for pros - it only gets problematic in late game when the game speed and number of tasks to do simultaneously is too high. Seriously, almost no pro fucks up in early game (unless he went for cheese which failed, or he was too greedy and didn't play the "best" safe build order), due to great build orders and tons of training in the very same situations - it's really all about mid and late game these days. So this is almost a non-issue on pro level Btw forgot one stupid thing too which also favors Protoss: - DTs do 40 dmg which kills drones, probes and lings in 1 hit (but not SCV), and when killing a unit in 1 hit it doesn't give you a message that you're under attack. This also really favors Protoss and I've even seen it on pro level where Zerg lost the entire drone count in one base just because of 1-2 DTs which were dropped there and the Z didn't notice it because he was busy somewhere else. If you are under attack you should KNOW. Terran does know, btw, because DTs need 2 hits per SCV, so he gets the message. Zerg has to constantly monitor his drones (look for blood splats) in order to prevent this from happening - which is an unnecessary extra task, making it even harder. you're making my head hurt. are you going to tell me what pros find easy and hard? you're just asserting a bunch of stuff like you are completely unable to back up. i'm almost under the impression that you're projecting your own understanding of the game onto how a progamer plays. microing a shuttle around a terrans base is not some easy thing you can just brush off, that takes a lot of concentration. have you ever compared a DT to a vulture? you know, that unit that costs 75 minerals, comes with 3 mines and is capable of killing a probe in two hits? those mines that occasionally blow up 3/4ths of my probes because my dragoons bug out and wont move away from the mines when they're planted in my worker line? yeah those things can kill a lot more a lot faster than a dt can but it dosn't mean T is really easy to play. what about the strenght of a defiler in TvZ? that unit that can make a dark swarm and fuck up an entire terrans push sending him back to square one. that unit can cast dark swarm over and over and over with ease, even before irradiate kills it--irradiate being the only real counter to dark swarm. Is zerg suddenly an easy race to play? look lets cut to the chase. you suck vs DTs and you lose to them all the time. it's ok; we get it. go put your god damn overlords at your expansion and stop saying protoss is easy to play.
Which is the exact point i was trying to make, if your gunna look at the equation look at it at its entiretey. Like your saying, most of the anger comes from not playing the race to its fullest ability.
Low level players get gaps in there skill and there ability to handle things. Some players have great multitask at early levels, and make multi drops look easy, while others can macro an insane amount. The kid is losing to dts, bc he clearly has a gap in his ability, bc honestly dt drops are hard as hell vs zerg unless u give them a good distraction which again, is hard as hell unless ur a pro(bc it requires a multi task ability (see bisu vs hoejja).
The only real way to examine the current trend of low level gaming is to look at the higher levels and whats happening, then u can trickle it down to lower levels. If your having a tuff time vs toss, its probably bc a new build exist for the race (or again ur skills arent evenly distributed) and so its not that protoss is easy, just that theyve evolved.
There were times when protoss was almost non existent, does that mean that terran was the easy race, in 2002 there were 6 zergs in the top 10 (i may be off a year), were they the easy race.
Starcraft is the most advanced e-sport bc after 10 years its still evolving so plz stop bitching ab an easy race an learn to adapt to new strats, or quit playing, that simple. Bc if ur a zerg and a low level player dt drops u and u can't handle, it doesnt mean that protoss is easy, it means ur bad.
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Btw for further posts in this thread for the love of god, provide examples
truth teller ur post doesnt equate to anything when, and get this, your 5 points can be knocked out with some other semi convincing argument, so plz, numbers, stats an logic plz.
If ur gunna say pros never lose shuttles, than plz go through all the games with all the shuttles, count them up, then do a percentage lost, bc otherwise anyone can say anything ab everything. So plz ur making my head hurt with ur complete knowledge of whats easy and hard for pros, and all gamers, which btw is just again are just arguments based on the least amount of evidence u can find.
And another huge point, do not mention one unit w/o mentioning its counter, or other units, its just stupid to bitch ab, oh idk, dts, when u ignore tanks huge damage, or vults mines, or lurkers. Dont tell me tell me terran has more units with abailities, which btw may b true if u count the ones u never use (ghosts wriaths battlecruisers) and not count the protoss storms, arbs, reavers, dark archons, i could go on but whats the point. Saying one thing ab one unit, or one aspect is fruitless, so plz, learn to argue like big people, and do this thing called having tight logical points with very few openings for fallacy, which can only happen when u, and this is the biggy, look at the counter arguments and solidly disprove them.(i know highscool shit is hard)
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On January 04 2009 17:14 clazziquai wrote:
you CANT deny that protoss is easy on the lower levels.
and have you even tried terran? i'll bet a "B-" Protoss is something equivalent to like a C Terran.
Wait, what?
From what you mean at B- and high everyone should be raped by terrans and P and Z would only suck T's balls.
I've been C+ on ICCup at my peak and I was playing C+ terrans and they were not untouchable and raping me every game like you imply... B- toss is definitely NOT C lvl terran. It's a lot higher. Like 2 iccup ranks higher.
As for P being easy at lower skill levels - yes. So?
Most people don't play because it's easy or hard. they play cause of fun. If I had more fun playing terran or zerg, I'd do it. Even if this means tougher multitasking and harder games. The whole point is having fun.
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On January 06 2009 16:12 MyLostTemple wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 15:23 0xDEADBEEF wrote:On January 06 2009 13:24 MyLostTemple wrote:On January 06 2009 12:11 TheTruthTeller wrote:
hum....ok . This needs to stop. We have a consensus here that Protoss is the easiest race at low levels (obviously).
What most people fail to realize however is that Protoss is also the easiest race at the highest levels of gaming. The gap of relative difficulty between the 3 races might be narrower at this level but some facts remain;
1.High HP Unit, Limited Unit special-Abilities ...easier micro
2.Longer unit build time, easier macro
3.Easy expansion setup, easier macro
4.Ability to hotkey your entire army in control groups, easier micro
5.Ability to freely mix your unit composition in each group, easier micro
Do you think that these 5 points do not apply at the pro-gaming level? The intensity of the game is higher, but these facts remain. The difference is that progaming Protosses are doing simple tasks at a higher speed and with better precision whereas progaming T and Z users are doing hard tasks at an insane speed with still higher precision. To say that at the highest level of Starcraft, all 3 races are equally difficult to play is simply inaccurate. Yes, the difference in relative difficulty might not be as blatant as it is at the lower levels, but Protoss remains the easiest race at all levels of play. oh thanks truthteller, i almost missed your bullshit post too. protoss is different, not easier. do you realize how unforgiving protoss is at early stages of the game? you can NOT fuck up with any of your early units early on because you don't get many of them. have you ever lost your shuttle in a pvt? that unit with vision just a little bit more than a turret? what about losing the 1st observer when you need to break a lurker contain... you know that slow as fuck unit that dies almost instantly. protoss is a precision based race, look at protoss base setup, they have to wall off with pylons everywhere on the map in pvt, you can't just randomly throw pylons down anywhere. protoss HAVE to mix their control groups or their flanks get fucked up (except the 1st group in pvt because that has to be goons). sure units make slower but protoss is also making the most complex unit combination's at times. look at pvz, you have to have incredibly precise unit mixtures or you get fucked in the late game. all the races require incredibly different skill sets. don't oversimplify. - Pros almost never lose a shuttle because they have great multitask/micro and attention - they almost always react immediately when the shuttle comes into turret range. So this is only a problem for low skilled players like us - Early stages of the game are relatively easy for pros - it only gets problematic in late game when the game speed and number of tasks to do simultaneously is too high. Seriously, almost no pro fucks up in early game (unless he went for cheese which failed, or he was too greedy and didn't play the "best" safe build order), due to great build orders and tons of training in the very same situations - it's really all about mid and late game these days. So this is almost a non-issue on pro level Btw forgot one stupid thing too which also favors Protoss: - DTs do 40 dmg which kills drones, probes and lings in 1 hit (but not SCV), and when killing a unit in 1 hit it doesn't give you a message that you're under attack. This also really favors Protoss and I've even seen it on pro level where Zerg lost the entire drone count in one base just because of 1-2 DTs which were dropped there and the Z didn't notice it because he was busy somewhere else. If you are under attack you should KNOW. Terran does know, btw, because DTs need 2 hits per SCV, so he gets the message. Zerg has to constantly monitor his drones (look for blood splats) in order to prevent this from happening - which is an unnecessary extra task, making it even harder. you're making my head hurt. are you going to tell me what pros find easy and hard? you're just asserting a bunch of stuff like you are completely unable to back up. i'm almost under the impression that you're projecting your own understanding of the game onto how a progamer plays. microing a shuttle around a terrans base is not some easy thing you can just brush off. it takes a lot of concentration. have you ever compared a DT to a vulture? you know... that unit that costs 75 minerals, comes with 3 mines and is capable of killing a probe in two hits? those mines that occasionally blow up 3/4ths of my probes because my dragoons bug out and wont move away from the mines when they're planted in my worker line? yeah those things can kill a lot more a lot faster than a dt can but it dosn't mean T is really easy to play. what about the strenght of a defiler in TvZ? that unit that can make a dark swarm and fuck up an entire terrans push sending him back to square one. that unit can cast dark swarm over and over and over with ease, even before irradiate kills it--irradiate being the only real counter to dark swarm. Is zerg suddenly an easy race to play? look lets cut to the chase. you suck vs DTs and you lose to them all the time. it's ok; we get it. go put your god damn overlords at your expansion and stop saying protoss is easy to play.
No... in fact *you* are projecting your own experience with Protoss onto how a progamer plays. Just like almost every other P who posted here... you keep saying that "omg P is so hard" just because the game in general is hard, and because you have a hard time, and because foreign Ps have a hard time against Koreans - well great! But STILL P is doing far too well atm.
Yes, vultures are too good for their price and build time. But TvP is still much harder for the Terran. It would take more than just this slightly imba unit to make Terran overpowered.
Yes, defilers are strong... but pros are extremely good at dodging swarms with minimal casualties. Why do Zs even try out queens again right now? Because progamer defiler/lurk/ling is goddamn hard vs. progamer M&M micro.
Sure, once your army with defilers reach the Terran base, it's pretty much gg for the Terran, but this is far from easy. Often, T has map control and you're in for a hell of a fight against Terran ball after ball until you can reach his natural with swarm/lurk. Plus, you have to scourge a lot of vessels or you're just getting irradiated to hell.
Again, you'd just be projecting your own experience of your own M&M vs Zerg when you say that "defilers are so imba *cry*". When you watch progamer ZvT you'll notice that defilers are far from imba, they're a necessity! Without them, T would rape every Z so hard it's not even funny.
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On January 06 2009 17:18 0xDEADBEEF wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 16:12 MyLostTemple wrote:On January 06 2009 15:23 0xDEADBEEF wrote:On January 06 2009 13:24 MyLostTemple wrote:On January 06 2009 12:11 TheTruthTeller wrote:
hum....ok . This needs to stop. We have a consensus here that Protoss is the easiest race at low levels (obviously).
What most people fail to realize however is that Protoss is also the easiest race at the highest levels of gaming. The gap of relative difficulty between the 3 races might be narrower at this level but some facts remain;
1.High HP Unit, Limited Unit special-Abilities ...easier micro
2.Longer unit build time, easier macro
3.Easy expansion setup, easier macro
4.Ability to hotkey your entire army in control groups, easier micro
5.Ability to freely mix your unit composition in each group, easier micro
Do you think that these 5 points do not apply at the pro-gaming level? The intensity of the game is higher, but these facts remain. The difference is that progaming Protosses are doing simple tasks at a higher speed and with better precision whereas progaming T and Z users are doing hard tasks at an insane speed with still higher precision. To say that at the highest level of Starcraft, all 3 races are equally difficult to play is simply inaccurate. Yes, the difference in relative difficulty might not be as blatant as it is at the lower levels, but Protoss remains the easiest race at all levels of play. oh thanks truthteller, i almost missed your bullshit post too. protoss is different, not easier. do you realize how unforgiving protoss is at early stages of the game? you can NOT fuck up with any of your early units early on because you don't get many of them. have you ever lost your shuttle in a pvt? that unit with vision just a little bit more than a turret? what about losing the 1st observer when you need to break a lurker contain... you know that slow as fuck unit that dies almost instantly. protoss is a precision based race, look at protoss base setup, they have to wall off with pylons everywhere on the map in pvt, you can't just randomly throw pylons down anywhere. protoss HAVE to mix their control groups or their flanks get fucked up (except the 1st group in pvt because that has to be goons). sure units make slower but protoss is also making the most complex unit combination's at times. look at pvz, you have to have incredibly precise unit mixtures or you get fucked in the late game. all the races require incredibly different skill sets. don't oversimplify. - Pros almost never lose a shuttle because they have great multitask/micro and attention - they almost always react immediately when the shuttle comes into turret range. So this is only a problem for low skilled players like us - Early stages of the game are relatively easy for pros - it only gets problematic in late game when the game speed and number of tasks to do simultaneously is too high. Seriously, almost no pro fucks up in early game (unless he went for cheese which failed, or he was too greedy and didn't play the "best" safe build order), due to great build orders and tons of training in the very same situations - it's really all about mid and late game these days. So this is almost a non-issue on pro level Btw forgot one stupid thing too which also favors Protoss: - DTs do 40 dmg which kills drones, probes and lings in 1 hit (but not SCV), and when killing a unit in 1 hit it doesn't give you a message that you're under attack. This also really favors Protoss and I've even seen it on pro level where Zerg lost the entire drone count in one base just because of 1-2 DTs which were dropped there and the Z didn't notice it because he was busy somewhere else. If you are under attack you should KNOW. Terran does know, btw, because DTs need 2 hits per SCV, so he gets the message. Zerg has to constantly monitor his drones (look for blood splats) in order to prevent this from happening - which is an unnecessary extra task, making it even harder. you're making my head hurt. are you going to tell me what pros find easy and hard? you're just asserting a bunch of stuff like you are completely unable to back up. i'm almost under the impression that you're projecting your own understanding of the game onto how a progamer plays. microing a shuttle around a terrans base is not some easy thing you can just brush off. it takes a lot of concentration. have you ever compared a DT to a vulture? you know... that unit that costs 75 minerals, comes with 3 mines and is capable of killing a probe in two hits? those mines that occasionally blow up 3/4ths of my probes because my dragoons bug out and wont move away from the mines when they're planted in my worker line? yeah those things can kill a lot more a lot faster than a dt can but it dosn't mean T is really easy to play. what about the strenght of a defiler in TvZ? that unit that can make a dark swarm and fuck up an entire terrans push sending him back to square one. that unit can cast dark swarm over and over and over with ease, even before irradiate kills it--irradiate being the only real counter to dark swarm. Is zerg suddenly an easy race to play? look lets cut to the chase. you suck vs DTs and you lose to them all the time. it's ok; we get it. go put your god damn overlords at your expansion and stop saying protoss is easy to play. No... in fact *you* are projecting your own experience with Protoss onto how a progamer plays. Just like almost every other P who posted here... you keep saying that "omg P is so hard" just because the game in general is hard, and because you have a hard time, and because foreign Ps have a hard time against Koreans - well great! But STILL P is doing far too well atm. Yes, vultures are too good for their price and build time. But TvP is still much harder for the Terran. It would take more than just this slightly imba unit to make Terran overpowered. Yes, defilers are strong... but pros are extremely good at dodging swarms with minimal casualties. Why do Zs even try out queens again right now? Because progamer defiler/lurk/ling is goddamn hard vs. progamer M&M micro. Sure, once your army with defilers reach the Terran base, it's pretty much gg for the Terran, but this is far from easy. Often, T has map control and you're in for a hell of a fight against Terran ball after ball until you can reach his natural with swarm/lurk. Plus, you have to scourge a lot of vessels or you're just getting irradiated to hell. Again, you'd just be projecting your own experience of your own M&M vs Zerg when you say that "defilers are so imba *cry*". When you watch progamer ZvT you'll notice that defilers are far from imba, they're a necessity! Without them, T would rape every Z so hard it's not even funny.
are u slow
he never says defilers are imba, he says that they can stop terran cold, he then sarcastically says, is zerg the easy race, bc they clearly arent. Hes saying that, and this is what happens when u read, that every matchup has its difficulties, but to say that any race is imba based on ur inability to handle the situation is silly.
And again plz for the love of god some one respond to my main point which is what everyone is crying ab. P is doing to well atm, is what u say, and i say,m what ab the times there were 5 terrans in the top (january 2004 i think, maybe 2005) or when there were 6 zergs in the top (2003 january i think) or when there was 1 toss in the top? Top being top 10. Protoss has finally gotten what every other race has had, which is a dominating line up coupled with an evotion in play. And btw, toss is doing to well, u guys act like its been a year, its been like 3 months since flash and jaedong's rein of terror over 2008. If your gunna say theyre doing to well, then explain y doing to well is different than anytime any other race does it for the love of god. Back ur shit up for once in this post, and stop crying bc the race that was getting raped in the ass is finally on top.
As far as easiest, plz, like i said there are clear gaps in skills between ppl, some kids can macro, some can micro, some can multitask, some can adapt, ect, the problem is at high levels kids can do all of those and at low levels they can only do one. So again projecting ur experience over an entire race bc u lack or are good at one of these things is silly.
Again, plz back ur shit up when u say it, tell me how something exist and y it exist that way, not just that it exist. (again highschool shit is hard as hell i know)
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
On January 06 2009 17:18 0xDEADBEEF wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 16:12 MyLostTemple wrote:On January 06 2009 15:23 0xDEADBEEF wrote:On January 06 2009 13:24 MyLostTemple wrote:On January 06 2009 12:11 TheTruthTeller wrote:
hum....ok . This needs to stop. We have a consensus here that Protoss is the easiest race at low levels (obviously).
What most people fail to realize however is that Protoss is also the easiest race at the highest levels of gaming. The gap of relative difficulty between the 3 races might be narrower at this level but some facts remain;
1.High HP Unit, Limited Unit special-Abilities ...easier micro
2.Longer unit build time, easier macro
3.Easy expansion setup, easier macro
4.Ability to hotkey your entire army in control groups, easier micro
5.Ability to freely mix your unit composition in each group, easier micro
Do you think that these 5 points do not apply at the pro-gaming level? The intensity of the game is higher, but these facts remain. The difference is that progaming Protosses are doing simple tasks at a higher speed and with better precision whereas progaming T and Z users are doing hard tasks at an insane speed with still higher precision. To say that at the highest level of Starcraft, all 3 races are equally difficult to play is simply inaccurate. Yes, the difference in relative difficulty might not be as blatant as it is at the lower levels, but Protoss remains the easiest race at all levels of play. oh thanks truthteller, i almost missed your bullshit post too. protoss is different, not easier. do you realize how unforgiving protoss is at early stages of the game? you can NOT fuck up with any of your early units early on because you don't get many of them. have you ever lost your shuttle in a pvt? that unit with vision just a little bit more than a turret? what about losing the 1st observer when you need to break a lurker contain... you know that slow as fuck unit that dies almost instantly. protoss is a precision based race, look at protoss base setup, they have to wall off with pylons everywhere on the map in pvt, you can't just randomly throw pylons down anywhere. protoss HAVE to mix their control groups or their flanks get fucked up (except the 1st group in pvt because that has to be goons). sure units make slower but protoss is also making the most complex unit combination's at times. look at pvz, you have to have incredibly precise unit mixtures or you get fucked in the late game. all the races require incredibly different skill sets. don't oversimplify. - Pros almost never lose a shuttle because they have great multitask/micro and attention - they almost always react immediately when the shuttle comes into turret range. So this is only a problem for low skilled players like us - Early stages of the game are relatively easy for pros - it only gets problematic in late game when the game speed and number of tasks to do simultaneously is too high. Seriously, almost no pro fucks up in early game (unless he went for cheese which failed, or he was too greedy and didn't play the "best" safe build order), due to great build orders and tons of training in the very same situations - it's really all about mid and late game these days. So this is almost a non-issue on pro level Btw forgot one stupid thing too which also favors Protoss: - DTs do 40 dmg which kills drones, probes and lings in 1 hit (but not SCV), and when killing a unit in 1 hit it doesn't give you a message that you're under attack. This also really favors Protoss and I've even seen it on pro level where Zerg lost the entire drone count in one base just because of 1-2 DTs which were dropped there and the Z didn't notice it because he was busy somewhere else. If you are under attack you should KNOW. Terran does know, btw, because DTs need 2 hits per SCV, so he gets the message. Zerg has to constantly monitor his drones (look for blood splats) in order to prevent this from happening - which is an unnecessary extra task, making it even harder. you're making my head hurt. are you going to tell me what pros find easy and hard? you're just asserting a bunch of stuff like you are completely unable to back up. i'm almost under the impression that you're projecting your own understanding of the game onto how a progamer plays. microing a shuttle around a terrans base is not some easy thing you can just brush off. it takes a lot of concentration. have you ever compared a DT to a vulture? you know... that unit that costs 75 minerals, comes with 3 mines and is capable of killing a probe in two hits? those mines that occasionally blow up 3/4ths of my probes because my dragoons bug out and wont move away from the mines when they're planted in my worker line? yeah those things can kill a lot more a lot faster than a dt can but it dosn't mean T is really easy to play. what about the strenght of a defiler in TvZ? that unit that can make a dark swarm and fuck up an entire terrans push sending him back to square one. that unit can cast dark swarm over and over and over with ease, even before irradiate kills it--irradiate being the only real counter to dark swarm. Is zerg suddenly an easy race to play? look lets cut to the chase. you suck vs DTs and you lose to them all the time. it's ok; we get it. go put your god damn overlords at your expansion and stop saying protoss is easy to play. No... in fact *you* are projecting your own experience with Protoss onto how a progamer plays. Just like almost every other P who posted here... you keep saying that "omg P is so hard" just because the game in general is hard, and because you have a hard time, and because foreign Ps have a hard time against Koreans - well great! But STILL P is doing far too well atm. Yes, vultures are too good for their price and build time. But TvP is still much harder for the Terran. It would take more than just this slightly imba unit to make Terran overpowered. Yes, defilers are strong... but pros are extremely good at dodging swarms with minimal casualties. Why do Zs even try out queens again right now? Because progamer defiler/lurk/ling is goddamn hard vs. progamer M&M micro. Sure, once your army with defilers reach the Terran base, it's pretty much gg for the Terran, but this is far from easy. Often, T has map control and you're in for a hell of a fight against Terran ball after ball until you can reach his natural with swarm/lurk. Plus, you have to scourge a lot of vessels or you're just getting irradiated to hell. Again, you'd just be projecting your own experience of your own M&M vs Zerg when you say that "defilers are so imba *cry*". When you watch progamer ZvT you'll notice that defilers are far from imba, they're a necessity! Without them, T would rape every Z so hard it's not even funny.
i'm not projecting shit you newbtard, i spend lots of time talking and drinking with pros and they definitely don't conclude p is some easy race. i was drinking with nal ra a week ago and we were talking about some of this stuff. I see several pros every week due to my job as well.
anyways while you were babbling about how P is easy you threw in an example of DTs killing drones in one hit. i diffused your argument by pointing out that all the races have incredibly powerful units that force the other race to struggle at moments. that was the whole point i was making there.
terran versus protoss isn't harder for the terran... what are you talking about? you're all over the place. there are even many progamers who say they prefer tvp over tvz due to their playing style. look, let me just explain to you how the metagame works in sc
There are metamatchups a player must deal with in SC
Offender vs Defender: TvP TvZ PvZ
Defender vs Offender PvZ ZvP ZvT
Mirror vs Mirror: TvT PvP ZvZ
the entire TvP matchup involves Protoss controlling the map and defending harassment (after the 1st 8 minutes) and preparing for the Push. The terrans job is to prep for this push and execute it. Both players are playing different roles. That dosn't mean the terran has it hard and the protoss has it easy.
yes there are a ton of P's dominating (for the 1st time in 11 years) and it has to do with the maps. And yes P is the easiest race to play if your a newb, but it's not easiest at the competitive level, nor is any race.
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The backup is simply that P is doing extremely well at the moment on all skill levels.
There's absolutely no denying that, yet you and the other Ps keep saying that its' only the case on low levels. Which is only part of the truth.
This concludes that P is the easiest race of the three at the moment.
There's also no denying that. Yet you and the other Ps keep saying that P would just be as hard as the other races (probably just because you don't understand the difference between EASY and EASIER - just because all races are generally hard to play on all levels doesn't mean that there are no imbalances), and that those P players who dominate at the moment just deserve it because they're simply the better players, not taking the possibility into account that they are probably only at the top because they play the easiest race.
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United States10774 Posts
On January 06 2009 17:51 0xDEADBEEF wrote:
The backup is simply that P is doing extremely well at the moment on all skill levels.
There's absolutely no denying that, yet you and the other Ps keep saying that its' only the case on low levels. Which is only part of the truth.
This concludes that P is the easiest race of the three at the moment.
There's also no denying that. Yet you and the other Ps keep saying that P would just be as hard as the other races (probably just because you don't understand the difference between EASY and EASIER - just because all races are generally hard to play on all levels doesn't mean that there are no imbalances), and that those P players who dominate at the moment just deserve it because they're simply the better players, not taking the possibility into account that they are probably only at the top because they play the easiest race.
What about before the Protoss resurgence? Did it all of sudden become the "easiest race?"
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
This thread's sole purpose seems to be to pit people against each other with cutlasses and have them brawl to the bloody death. Time for this to go I think.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.kenpardue.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/easy.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.frools.net/lolz/sisko-facepalm.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.roligabilder.org/maenniskor/images/193.jpg)
