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On January 13 2020 09:27 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2020 08:02 BabelFish1 wrote:On January 13 2020 07:47 Pentarp wrote:On January 13 2020 07:04 BabelFish1 wrote:On January 13 2020 06:57 Pentarp wrote:On January 13 2020 06:36 BabelFish1 wrote:On January 13 2020 06:16 Pentarp wrote:
Protoss need more counters to bio because storms, collosi, disruptors are simply not enough. That's not really part of the topic but if we're really going there, Colossi get shredded by Thors - Stopped reading right there. Thors with HIP have 11 range. Colossi with Extended Thermal Lance have 9 range. I suggest stopping the low effort meme crap and actually think things through a bit. It's fine if you don't know stuff but being flippant in a thread where I made it perfectly clear that it's not okay to be flippant in, is not. Be better, All those bio TvP games with thors in them. Must be GSL code S+ level games. I suggest you stop grasping at straws. Or let's play your silly game: WELL IMMORTALS BEAT THORS! Colossi are made as a reaction to Bio or as an opener. Thors aren't usually made with bio unless it's a transition. Doesn't mean Thors don't make Colossi absolutely useless nor does it mean someone won't use Thors to beat Colossi.I aint grasping at straws, you're over elaborating. I'm simply going through counters to Protoss AoE. No more goal post moving please. Immortals trade evenly with Thors, they don't beat them. The counter to the Thor is lots of Disruptors with support (3 Novas to kill a Thor from full health). The fact that Thors aren't usually made with bio means that Thors don't affect Colossi in 90% of pro-level games. Please show me a pro-level bio game where "someone" used thors to beat Colossi. You're literally grasping for counters to colossi from thin air without any grounded basis in actual professional game-play. I've held my goal post at your comment on how Thors counter Colossi.
High damage+11 range vs low damage+9 range. For the Colossi to get in range, they have to take shots and when they're in range, they tickle Thors. We weren't talking about if Thors interact with Colossi reliably, they don't unless you have Colossi left over from earlier on or have some weird scenario that almost never plays out. But that doesn't matter because we weren't discussing whether Thors have the chance to counter Colossi. We were discussing counters and the Thor can hard counter Colossi if the situation presents itself.
Again you've goal post changed. We went from general unit interactions to pros using Thors to beat Colossi to Thors in bio being used to counter Colossi. I will have no part in that nonsense so shape up or get out. Thanks for understanding.
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On January 13 2020 09:27 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2020 08:02 BabelFish1 wrote:On January 13 2020 07:47 Pentarp wrote:On January 13 2020 07:04 BabelFish1 wrote:On January 13 2020 06:57 Pentarp wrote:On January 13 2020 06:36 BabelFish1 wrote:On January 13 2020 06:16 Pentarp wrote:
Protoss need more counters to bio because storms, collosi, disruptors are simply not enough. That's not really part of the topic but if we're really going there, Colossi get shredded by Thors - Stopped reading right there. Thors with HIP have 11 range. Colossi with Extended Thermal Lance have 9 range. I suggest stopping the low effort meme crap and actually think things through a bit. It's fine if you don't know stuff but being flippant in a thread where I made it perfectly clear that it's not okay to be flippant in, is not. Be better, All those bio TvP games with thors in them. Must be GSL code S+ level games. I suggest you stop grasping at straws. Or let's play your silly game: WELL IMMORTALS BEAT THORS! Colossi are made as a reaction to Bio or as an opener. Thors aren't usually made with bio unless it's a transition. Doesn't mean Thors don't make Colossi absolutely useless nor does it mean someone won't use Thors to beat Colossi.I aint grasping at straws, you're over elaborating. I'm simply going through counters to Protoss AoE. No more goal post moving please. Immortals trade evenly with Thors, they don't beat them. The counter to the Thor is lots of Disruptors with support (3 Novas to kill a Thor from full health). The fact that Thors aren't usually made with bio means that Thors don't affect Colossi in 90% of bio vs protoss at pro-level. Please show me a pro-level bio game where "someone" used thors to beat Colossi. You're literally grasping for counters to colossi from thin air without any grounded basis in actual professional game-play. I've held my goal post at your comment on how Thors counter Colossi.
My understanding of the original post is that babelfish listed terran units that beat individual aoe/splash units of protoss. Thors do indeed beat colossus.
Your request for a professional game with thor used to counter colossus is not constructive to the discussion since a) the original example had no other unit interaction and b) the overall discussion includes non-pros as well.
On to my thoughts on the charge change:
Zealots are worse in a straight up fight. That is consistent with the long term feedback updates, where the strength of zealots in PvT has been under scrutiny. Zealots have been deemed too strong.
Zealots are better at disengagement. This is also consistent with the feedback updates, though not as often mentioned as the PvT strength. Zealots were too slow to save themselves in PvZ.
The charge change was justified by a long term analysis.
Additional effects of the change includes more unit trading with terran (zealots die in fight, bio dies in flight) and amassed zealots can more easily be used for harassment (the 20 zealots that defended your base can pressure an enemy expansion). The mentioned "prisms and scouting pylons" do nothing to help the zealots that already exist. Well, 4 can go with the prism but the majority cannot.
Additionally, the balance of marines, zealots and zerglings are now more even. I like that lings have a shot vs zealots. I like that zealots don't massacre marines in equal mineral investment.
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On January 13 2020 10:31 Drfilip wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2020 09:27 Pentarp wrote:On January 13 2020 08:02 BabelFish1 wrote:On January 13 2020 07:47 Pentarp wrote:On January 13 2020 07:04 BabelFish1 wrote:On January 13 2020 06:57 Pentarp wrote:On January 13 2020 06:36 BabelFish1 wrote:On January 13 2020 06:16 Pentarp wrote:
Protoss need more counters to bio because storms, collosi, disruptors are simply not enough. That's not really part of the topic but if we're really going there, Colossi get shredded by Thors - Stopped reading right there. Thors with HIP have 11 range. Colossi with Extended Thermal Lance have 9 range. I suggest stopping the low effort meme crap and actually think things through a bit. It's fine if you don't know stuff but being flippant in a thread where I made it perfectly clear that it's not okay to be flippant in, is not. Be better, All those bio TvP games with thors in them. Must be GSL code S+ level games. I suggest you stop grasping at straws. Or let's play your silly game: WELL IMMORTALS BEAT THORS! Colossi are made as a reaction to Bio or as an opener. Thors aren't usually made with bio unless it's a transition. Doesn't mean Thors don't make Colossi absolutely useless nor does it mean someone won't use Thors to beat Colossi.I aint grasping at straws, you're over elaborating. I'm simply going through counters to Protoss AoE. No more goal post moving please. Immortals trade evenly with Thors, they don't beat them. The counter to the Thor is lots of Disruptors with support (3 Novas to kill a Thor from full health). The fact that Thors aren't usually made with bio means that Thors don't affect Colossi in 90% of bio vs protoss at pro-level. Please show me a pro-level bio game where "someone" used thors to beat Colossi. You're literally grasping for counters to colossi from thin air without any grounded basis in actual professional game-play. I've held my goal post at your comment on how Thors counter Colossi. My understanding of the original post is that babelfish listed terran units that beat individual aoe/splash units of protoss. Thors do indeed beat colossus. Your request for a professional game with thor used to counter colossus is not constructive to the discussion since a) the original example had no other unit interaction and b) the overall discussion includes non-pros as well. On to my thoughts on the charge change: Zealots are worse in a straight up fight. That is consistent with the long term feedback updates, where the strength of zealots in PvT has been under scrutiny. Zealots have been deemed too strong. Zealots are better at disengagement. This is also consistent with the feedback updates, though not as often mentioned as the PvT strength. Zealots were too slow to save themselves in PvZ. The charge change was justified by a long term analysis. Additional effects of the change includes more unit trading with terran (zealots die in fight, bio dies in flight) and amassed zealots can more easily be used for harassment (the 20 zealots that defended your base can pressure an enemy expansion). The mentioned "prisms and scouting pylons" do nothing to help the zealots that already exist. Well, 4 can go with the prism but the majority cannot. Additionally, the balance of marines, zealots and zerglings are now more even. I like that lings have a shot vs zealots. I like that zealots don't massacre marines in equal mineral investment.
… before Bio could stutter step and gain value out of it whereas now, Bio can't run but melts Zealots so fast that it doesn't matter...
Thors are not viable in bio-Terran comps.
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Pentarp is correct. No one builds thors if they're sticking to mainly bio. Storm, disrupt and colossi do shred bio.
The new zealot passive speed buff upgrade has its advantages, particular in the hands of a capable protoss. Is it still a nerf overall? Maybe to lower leaguers. In the pro scene, we have yet to see how it pans out.
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On January 13 2020 07:47 Pentarp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2020 07:04 BabelFish1 wrote:On January 13 2020 06:57 Pentarp wrote:On January 13 2020 06:36 BabelFish1 wrote:On January 13 2020 06:16 Pentarp wrote:
Protoss need more counters to bio because storms, collosi, disruptors are simply not enough. That's not really part of the topic but if we're really going there, Colossi get shredded by Thors - Stopped reading right there. Thors with HIP have 11 range. Colossi with Extended Thermal Lance have 9 range. I suggest stopping the low effort meme crap and actually think things through a bit. It's fine if you don't know stuff but being flippant in a thread where I made it perfectly clear that it's not okay to be flippant in, is not. Be better, All those bio TvP games with thors in them. Must be GSL code S+ level games. I suggest you stop grasping at straws. Or let's play your silly game: WELL IMMORTALS BEAT THORS!
I guess you missed all those GSL games where TY stomped Protoss with bio into mech with Thors lol
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I love these threads, it lets me know who to ignore in other discussion threads.
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On January 13 2020 09:13 BabelFish1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2020 09:02 pvsnp wrote:On January 13 2020 07:29 BabelFish1 wrote:On January 13 2020 07:19 pvsnp wrote:
I have yet to see any massive swing in balance that one would naturally expect from a supposedly massive nerf. Protoss seems to be doing just fine, in fact, macro games appear mostly standard and chargelots are made every game.
Of course, this could be for any number of reasons; other buffs/nerfs/meta shifts/whatever. But as long as the game is in a healthy state, which it seems to be, I'm not inclined to complain. That would just be whining for the sake of whining.
Maybe it was a massive nerf. Maybe not. Who cares? Well, there is an impication in the form of Zealots no longer being used as a breaching round and Charge 1st openers are just dead. As are mass gateway styles and the 2 base 1 gas Charge allin. It's not that it was a nerf that Protoss couldn't handle, it's that the nerf wasn't based on balance and as a result, Protoss lost a bunch of builds. I care for one, I was the kind of player who would open fast Charge, take an early 3rd and smother my opponent in Chargelots as I macro'd like a boss, got tech, etc. That kind of style no longer exists for Protoss; an aggressive macro Gateway style. And it didn't die in the name of balance, it died because we have a balance team that is doing weird, inconsistent stuff for funsies. Well I hate to break it to you, but the balance team neither knows nor cares about your individual games. Their job is to create a healthy game for the bulk of the playerbase, including pros, and as far as pretty much everyone else is concerned, the new charge serves that purpose. Serves what new purpose though? Warp Prisms and spotter pylons allowed for flanks and runbys already. All that's left is Zealots can now retreat at the massive cost which is a 33% damage nerf, which in turn impacts what they can tank. Did Protoss players ever say to themselves "Gee, I really wish I could save my mineral sink units, even if it cost me 33% of their damage to get that buff". I get the feeling that the balance team wanted to rotate the damage of Charge to the Adept, which would have made sense but they kinda botched that concept by making the additional damage exceedingly gimmicky and restrictive, meanwhile you still have the issue of Zealots being made of tissue paper in the mid game due to the loss of damage. It's a massive, massive nerf that killed multiple builds, killed an aggressive macro-orientated playstyle and didn't offer anything new except the ability to run away more easily and to save 100-250 minerals by skipping a spotter pylon or warp prism to enable the same plays. Maybe I'm missing something here but overall I'd say this is a significantly worse direction to head toward, a meta where Protoss either cheese/allin or deathball. The same meta Protoss had in WoL and HotS...I enjoyed Protoss being able to play aggressively, delaying tech to provide faster economy and relying on threatening gateway compositions to bully the opponent..now you can't do that. At all.
It is not called aggressive macro-oriented play style, it is called how to get away with greed, without basically taking any risk, since your described "Chargelot early game" was so op, especially at lower levels (below gsl level basically).
To be honest your cry describes why Terrans were crying for months, they could not handle protoss greed, because they could not punish it without taking HUGE risks, while if they play greedy -> terrans die vs protoss against semi aggressive builds instantly. In my eyes this is what called "trying to balance the game"..
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In PvT I'd be more than fine if the zelot nerf remained as it is and to actually allow zelots to use they new speed for retreat by deleting Concussive Shells upgrade from the game 
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On January 13 2020 12:49 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2020 07:47 Pentarp wrote:On January 13 2020 07:04 BabelFish1 wrote:On January 13 2020 06:57 Pentarp wrote:On January 13 2020 06:36 BabelFish1 wrote:On January 13 2020 06:16 Pentarp wrote:
Protoss need more counters to bio because storms, collosi, disruptors are simply not enough. That's not really part of the topic but if we're really going there, Colossi get shredded by Thors - Stopped reading right there. Thors with HIP have 11 range. Colossi with Extended Thermal Lance have 9 range. I suggest stopping the low effort meme crap and actually think things through a bit. It's fine if you don't know stuff but being flippant in a thread where I made it perfectly clear that it's not okay to be flippant in, is not. Be better, All those bio TvP games with thors in them. Must be GSL code S+ level games. I suggest you stop grasping at straws. Or let's play your silly game: WELL IMMORTALS BEAT THORS! I guess you missed all those GSL games where TY stomped Protoss with bio into mech with Thors lol
So then it's not that hard to post the pro game which was asked
Edit> To be fair it would be nice to post some games for the hardcounters just to show it to tha audience, it would show the problem more properly.
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It was the best and most meaningful change of the patch, Chargelots were waaaaaaaaaaaay too strong for the moment they were available in game.
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It's a nerf, and protoss needs nerfing. You might be sad that you can't mass zealots as effectively, but aggressive gateway style still exists. Blink stalker still exists. Also that "Change my mind" in the title. Like really? We know you wouldn't change your mind from your posts.
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This thread is just a balance cry for Protoss who want a buff. The latest period for Aligulac shows PvsT at 50.10%: http://aligulac.com/periods/258/
I hope the mods realize that PvsT is balanced for this period, according to Aligulac, and that Protoss players are whining for buffs. This thread should be removed unless the statistics show there is an imbalance with PvsT.
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It's a nerf, the movement speed thing is just a small compensation. The zealot back before legacy of the void had neither the damage on charge nor the extra speed it has now it had the old movement speed boost and no damage on charge. In legacy of the void start, the charge upgrade was originally just the +8 damage for 200/200 in 2017 it got reworked to 100/100 to deal with tank pushes on maps like Abyssal reef, acolyte, ascension to aiur and other maps (as far as I know at least) But before that toss was doing fine in TvP. Now while it is true this nerf does affect the massgate style heavily it is still viable. And it still sees play and wins games. The way I'd look at it at least for PvT is that you have 2 styles of playing. A colossus based style or the massgate style. Similarly Terran has Bio and Mech. For obvious reasons, one does not work nearly as well as the other but one is still viable and a solid way of playing (Bio and colossus style) And as a Terran player you'll probably hear this a lot and it is whine but I did not find it fun to just kite an entire fire while dying to units behind the zealots or doing a small drop only for it to be cleared by a few zealots. Which actually is the biggest thing I did notice from this nerf. One warp in of zealots isn't enough anymore to clear drops which I think actually is a great thing it puts toss in a role where they have to be ready and in position ahead of time and adds extra incentive to Terran drop play. Outside of that though I would also not be against bringing back charge damage to the zealot if the map pool choices were to drastically change. Most of 2019 had pretty garbage maps for TvP, lacked dead airspace or they just had the same linear line of expansions that made dropping in between bases a suicide mission.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37125 Posts
Alright... This thread has run its course. Change my mind.
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EPT
