He'll learn eventually. He already reached the point of asking instead of thinking he knows, which is a huge improvement.

This question is in the wrong place but it's fine. Strategy is where questions about mechanics and strategies usually go.

Whatson

United States5356 Posts

November 13 2018 22:16 GMT

#22

On November 13 2018 22:17 Chef wrote:
Freakling is right here. I add to that, to the endless chagrin of users on BWMN, lots of things they know about Brood War are still a surprise years and years later to the community at large, and even to Team Liquid and the Korean pros. The gas issue being a very good example, where unfair gas placements can mean one or two less muta in ZvZ (if using three workers and not sacrificing minerals), which is really broken. Very good players didn't know this long after the information was out there.

There are some maps which use doodads or neutral units to make the workers spawn closer to the minerals to improve fairness. Freakling more than anyone else is very particular about testing the fairness of mineral placements, which he's written extensively about because non-intuitively, you can't just mirror mineral placements and I think even duplicating them can have some issues. Brood War has some issues like that which will never be fixed, and they can be kinda hard to pin down. Accelerations and deceleration of workers when mining is particularly weird.

Like white going first in chess, it's kind of weirdly part of the game. A part of me thinks Brood War might look very different if workers mined consistently and efficiently. Their inefficiency and redundancy is almost a nerf on the advantage gained from killing a worker. Brood War is a messy game that can't be played perfectly, and these problems are kind of thematic with that. The extreme expression of that of course being the original Blizzard maps that came with the game. Still, I think if Remastered had tried to fix the mining issues and made it easier for people to make fair maps, it wouldn't have been a bad thing

On November 13 2018 20:24 Freakling wrote:

Show nested quote +

And this is where you probably err. Significant differences in mining rates (higher one-digit percentages for minerals and up to 20% for gas), even between mains, have gone undetected (or at least unaccounted for) for vast stretches of time…

If that's the case then I apologize. It's just that when I first started playing BW I was told basically straight-up by the people who got me into the game that because a lot of maps aren't symmetrical there would inherently be advantages/disadvantages to each location and in different matchups, but it was all a part of the gameplay and wasn't significant enough to severely impact who wins.

Chef

10810 Posts

November 14 2018 22:44 GMT

#23

I think what you were told when you got into the game was accurate. Even at the pro level. I know you said in your original post "big difference," and I guess I would say maybe it's not a big difference, but if we wanted to find out probably the best way would be to look at mirror matchups on a couple maps, and look at the win rates for the different start locations for a random large sample of players. I know we have stats of matchup winrates for maps, I don't know if start location is ever recorded, but it should be possible to programmatically determine it. I don't remember, but BWChart might already do that. Of course, that doesn't isolate the issue about minerals, but it at least could say something about start positions.

Also, I think even when LT was the only map people played and people might have said the same thing about balance not being that bad, 12 o-clock super sucked for Zerg because you couldn't build your hatch at your natural if you wanted to defend your choke with sunkens lol. SC players tolerated and still tolerate a lot (but not without complaining of course). It turns out if a game is fun it doesn't need to be perfectly balanced.

Freakling

Germany1529 Posts

November 14 2018 23:29 GMT

#24

Best to ask Zerg players. Something like a 5% mining rate difference on single saturation does not go unnoticed in a ZvZ.

chem!

Russian Federation42 Posts

November 15 2018 05:30 GMT

#25

on 3 players maps it is more about spawn luck in pvp, where one player have better spot for reaver/shuttle harass

Yanokabo

268 Posts

November 15 2018 05:40 GMT

#26

Of course if you break it down to the minutia yes all this would be unbalanced but sc, just like life, is not fair , so one player will get 8 mineral ahead of the other for a little while. So good player can ride home an 8 mineral advantage the whole game assuming perfect play? Yes but no one plays perfect and one or two mistakes and the game is in the other players hands. So yeah but you can make up that tiny advantage in many other ways.

Moataz

Egypt267 Posts

November 15 2018 08:08 GMT

#27

On November 14 2018 03:33 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote:
He'll learn eventually. He already reached the point of asking instead of thinking he knows, which is a huge improvement.

This question is in the wrong place but it's fine. Strategy is where questions about mechanics and strategies usually go.

I can confess when I do something wrong, can you?

Not to go off topic,

Welcome to the CoachAI.

Dead9

United States4725 Posts

November 15 2018 14:42 GMT

#28

yeah modern maps are a lot better about positional imba but it still exists
it's just a part of the game

like spawning horizontal pos on cb tvp is way easier than cross pos

some older maps have very noticeable differences between positions too
for example 12/3 on katrina mine gas much better than the other positions

ajmbek

Italy460 Posts

November 15 2018 17:45 GMT

#29

On November 13 2018 11:01 mierin wrote:
I wish I could see your username and not remember nonsense threads such as your 9 psi nexus and the "macro" tool that says people should just make workers no matter what the circumstance. It's tainted at this point.

oh wait!
he is the "9 psi nexus" guy?

hahahahahhaha

Moataz

Egypt267 Posts

November 15 2018 19:44 GMT

#30

On November 16 2018 02:45 ajmbek wrote:

Show nested quote +

oh wait!
he is the "9 psi nexus" guy?

hahahahahhaha

Another kid comes late to the party & goes off topic, where are the moderators, to guide these guys to the right place ?

Anyway kid, I have a reply for you here.

Jealous

10146 Posts

November 15 2018 21:34 GMT

#31

Lmfao

ajmbek

Italy460 Posts

November 16 2018 13:11 GMT

#32

On November 16 2018 04:44 Moataz wrote:

Show nested quote +

Another kid comes late to the party & goes off topic, where are the moderators, to guide these guys to the right place ?

Anyway kid, I have a reply for you here.

look, you made 3 almost nonsens topics in the last couple of weeks, what do you expect?
I play this game from around 2005. Let me just laugh at this. Otherwise i had to be rude.

Moataz

Egypt267 Posts

December 01 2018 02:00 GMT

#33

On November 16 2018 22:11 ajmbek wrote:

Show nested quote +

look, you made 3 almost nonsens topics in the last couple of weeks, what do you expect?
I play this game from around 2005. Let me just laugh at this. Otherwise i had to be rude.

Look, kid, anyone can say about the most apparent facts it's nonsense, but without given an incisive reason why he thinks like that, then most probably he is the one that doesn't make a sense.

Like when someone deny that this universe has a creator and says that its nonsense, he actually doesn't want/wish that there is one (like the student who didn't study well, doesn't want the exam !), so he turns away from anything that reminds him, and search for weak points even if he knows that these points won't help/not-related to the topic.

Sorry for talking much about the sense, you also have a typo (guess where !) which mean my topics could make some sense.
I think the nonsense is only in your mind, since you didn't prove it, so Let me just laugh at this, otherwise I had to be rude.

User was temp banned for this post.