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What wrecked SC2? - Page 9

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opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
July 27 2017 15:13 GMT
#161
At the end, SC2 community may end up being just me and Viper and I will still like it more than the BW one
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
KungKras
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden484 Posts
July 27 2017 15:22 GMT
#162
On July 27 2017 22:43 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2017 22:38 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On July 27 2017 22:31 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 27 2017 03:57 Solar424 wrote:
On July 26 2017 20:25 Nebuchad wrote:
It's dying because of you.

Yes, criticizing the game and trying to identify ways to make it better is toxic, we should all just suck off Blizzard and say SC2 is the best it's ever been. Burying your head in the sand and saying SC2 is great while all the sponsors and players are leaving did more damage than anything. If people actually acknowledged the problems with SC2 and if Blizzard actually listened to the community than the game would be in a much better place.


I wasn't talking about him specifically for voicing criticism, I was talking about the sc2 community. It's trash. It's the main reason why the game isn't doing well.

Anything, regardless of quality, will be destroyed by its own fanbase deciding to be dicks about it.

Two or three years ago I came across someone who was tired of BW, they made a post on TL about how it was boring and he didn't like Flash, I don't remember the specifics. The community jumped on him, defended its game. This is what is supposed to happen on a fan site.

Any fan site where "Is the game that we are supposed to be fans of complete shit?" is a recurring discussion and where you are called toxic for not appreciating this discussion will not lead to a healthy future for the subject of said site.

Sorry but if anything this behavior is a result of there being (perceived) problems with the game. This also happens in every community ever, go to the big subreddits and you will see threads complaining about the game, the developer, etc.
That's just how things go and as long as it's somewhat constructive that's also how it should be.
If the developer reacts and actually understands what the majority of the community wants, that's another issue.


WIth that being said, i still stand to my first statement that starcraft "got wrecked" (well it obviously didn't die or anything that extreme) because there is actual competition right now. Competition the more casual audience would rather play.
The same will happen to SC:R in korea as well, young people play OW and LoL there.


The fact that there are problems within a game isn't enough. Broodwar has units that literally can't be controlled accurately, dragoons. That is what we call, objectively, a problem. They created a legend of autumn protoss schematically cause protoss couldn't win in normal conditions and so in autumn they put favorable maps for protoss in the map pool and a protoss would win the competition off of that. That's a problem. I'm pretty sure I remember reading about periods where a race would be at 20% winrate against another and no patch would come. That's a problem.

Problems don't kill a game on their own. You do.


Wait, no! Just... No! That the winrate was at 20% in a matchup and that the players later on figured out the matchup WITHOUT a balance patch and brought it back to close to 50% is the OPPOSITE of a problem. It speaks just to how well-designed the game is.

Sometimes something isn't as imbalanced as it seems and jumping the gun with a million patches is just going to take away the joy of figuring the game out from the players.
"When life gives me lemons, I go look for oranges"
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States907 Posts
July 27 2017 15:22 GMT
#163
I think the #1 reason SC2 wasn't successful is because it wasn't fun to play.

First example: force fields. It's an anti-fun mechanic. Once a force field is down and you don't have anything to break it, you can just get up from your computer. There is no counter-micro. They added a counter to it for Zerg, but that doesn't make it fun. That just means you click to counter it and now force fields are useless instead.

Second example: fungal growth. Another anti-fun mechanic. You can't do anything except let your units sit there and be fungalled again. And again until they die. Might as well leave the game when the first one gets your mutas. At least in BW when you get ensnared they still have to kill your units and you can actually still decide to slowly run away to a cliff. The subtle genius of design of ensnare means that it's a pretty bad and situational spell. If it was actually used every game, it would be very frustrating to play against.

Third example: stalker blink. Because fuck balance. Let's give Protoss incredibly weak units, but make them have a huge ability that lets them ignore cliffs and keep units alive almost indefinitely.

Fourth example: parasitic bomb. The unit has INFINITE energy because it can suck energy out of structures. Then it casts fucking irradiate on air units over and over again because again, it has infinite energy. At least plague doesn't kill and irradiate is limited by vessel mana. It just makes you never want to build air units again.

these abilities are just cancer

Although the SC2 marine is probably the most cancerous of all since your army literally just disappears in seconds. Can't really micro when everything instantly dies.

So why is the brood war marine not as scary? Because they have 40 hp, don't stack into a tight little ball and have to be microed 12 units at a time. Not to mention they can't stutter step because they have to turn around to run backwards.

Banelings available at tier 1 are also annoying in ZvZ - Zerg can't wall their ramp so it's just retardation. Every other race can just put layers and layers of buildings early on to prevent baneling busts as they happen. A zerg player can see banelings already morphing and just start to count down the moment to the time when he has to split his workers.
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
July 27 2017 15:22 GMT
#164
On July 28 2017 00:13 opisska wrote:
At the end, SC2 community may end up being just me and Viper and I will still like it more than the BW one

That's a given
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12161 Posts
July 27 2017 15:26 GMT
#165
On July 28 2017 00:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:
You think it's a cause, i think it's a reaction. The outcome is obviously the same. (unhappy people who might leave sooner or later)


When you say it's a reaction it seems to imply that there's a root cause x (problems in the game) that inevitably leads to y (community being shit). I used the example of problems in BW to show that it's not the case. If you didn't mean the inevitable part, then sure it's a reaction, but that's not really an interesting point to make cause I would then argue it's a bad reaction.
No will to live, no wish to die
Endymion
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States3701 Posts
July 27 2017 15:31 GMT
#166
On July 27 2017 23:41 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2017 20:48 Endymion wrote:
similar to the arguments against allowing hotkey rebinding in bw, i just don't think that there was enough mechanical stress in the game, so every single game above a certain level started becoming exactly the same game. what i mean is, since it was so easy to macro perfectly like flash, if you took every terran above like C- on iccup or F on fish and put them on sc2, they would never miss a single step with macro, scvs, depots, mules, etc. so every game was mechanically playing like flash, which is cool for a while maybe, but it gets boring after a while since there is no variation between players. in broodwar the game is so difficult mechanically that there's a "scarcity of mechanical skill," and players actively have to make the decision to either macro or micro more, and they choose whatever avenue is more effective on a w/l% for them personally, since it wasn't a cut and dry decision most of the time. what this results in for pro players is you get players like jaedong and julyzerg who both have very different playstyles, both of which are still effective at a pro level, given their different outlook on the game and their different idiosyncratic skillsets.

at a GM or pro level it sucks even more because literally all of your time better be spent studying strats, because your mechanical skill at the game is irrelevant since everyone is a mechanical god past GM. it also means that literally every player is the same and they're all doing the same strats, unless they're playing at a distinct disadvantage or doing something stupid. So imo, it hurts ALL aspects of the scene despite being intended to help the new players.

This is just not true at all...even the best pros miss macro steps in SC2. Where do you get the idea that everyone could easily master SC2 mechanically? It's complete bullshit. And pros have many distinct playstyles. Bly is not Scarlett who is not Nerchio who is not Elazer. All foreign zergs, all different playstyles.


nah i disagree, i think the game is mechanically simplistic and it is reflected in the lack of variation in games/builds/play styles compared to all level of broodwar, although maybe there's variation in the foreigner scene because i have overestimated the current scene's ability to play at a competitive level. mechanically bad players doesn't excuse the fact that any C level iccup player could macro perfectly under any conditions in sc2.
Have you considered the MMO-Champion forum? You are just as irrational and delusional with the right portion of nostalgic populism. By the way: The old Brood War was absolutely unplayable
KungKras
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden484 Posts
July 27 2017 15:35 GMT
#167
On July 28 2017 00:26 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2017 00:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:
You think it's a cause, i think it's a reaction. The outcome is obviously the same. (unhappy people who might leave sooner or later)


When you say it's a reaction it seems to imply that there's a root cause x (problems in the game) that inevitably leads to y (community being shit). I used the example of problems in BW to show that it's not the case. If you didn't mean the inevitable part, then sure it's a reaction, but that's not really an interesting point to make cause I would then argue it's a bad reaction.


Maybe, just maybe. The problems that you listed in BW are not the kind of problems that drain the fun out of it and alienates an audience? I mean BW never alientated its audience because of those problems. In fact it remained relevant for 20 years.

All problems aren't equal you know.

The fact of the matter is that Brood War built modern E-sports and is relevant to this day. While SC2 could never really convert the core BW audience and is fading away, especially in Korea. When you say that the game is dying because of negative voices you're putting the blame on the players and the community, which is ridiculous. The responisbility lies on the game, not the other way around.
"When life gives me lemons, I go look for oranges"
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States907 Posts
July 27 2017 15:37 GMT
#168
On July 28 2017 00:31 Endymion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2017 23:41 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On July 27 2017 20:48 Endymion wrote:
similar to the arguments against allowing hotkey rebinding in bw, i just don't think that there was enough mechanical stress in the game, so every single game above a certain level started becoming exactly the same game. what i mean is, since it was so easy to macro perfectly like flash, if you took every terran above like C- on iccup or F on fish and put them on sc2, they would never miss a single step with macro, scvs, depots, mules, etc. so every game was mechanically playing like flash, which is cool for a while maybe, but it gets boring after a while since there is no variation between players. in broodwar the game is so difficult mechanically that there's a "scarcity of mechanical skill," and players actively have to make the decision to either macro or micro more, and they choose whatever avenue is more effective on a w/l% for them personally, since it wasn't a cut and dry decision most of the time. what this results in for pro players is you get players like jaedong and julyzerg who both have very different playstyles, both of which are still effective at a pro level, given their different outlook on the game and their different idiosyncratic skillsets.

at a GM or pro level it sucks even more because literally all of your time better be spent studying strats, because your mechanical skill at the game is irrelevant since everyone is a mechanical god past GM. it also means that literally every player is the same and they're all doing the same strats, unless they're playing at a distinct disadvantage or doing something stupid. So imo, it hurts ALL aspects of the scene despite being intended to help the new players.

This is just not true at all...even the best pros miss macro steps in SC2. Where do you get the idea that everyone could easily master SC2 mechanically? It's complete bullshit. And pros have many distinct playstyles. Bly is not Scarlett who is not Nerchio who is not Elazer. All foreign zergs, all different playstyles.


nah i disagree, i think the game is mechanically simplistic and it is reflected in the lack of variation in games/builds/play styles compared to all level of broodwar, although maybe there's variation in the foreigner scene because i have overestimated the current scene's ability to play at a competitive level. mechanically bad players doesn't excuse the fact that any C level iccup player could macro perfectly under any conditions in sc2.


I'm a C level zerg on iccup, but I can't inject or creep spread in SC2 because those are bullshit repetitive tasks that need to just be practiced. They don't really offer any choice. They're like sending workers to mine in brood war. It's just extra APM you have to spend. The fact that they PUT THAT IN TO MAKE YOU DO REPETITIVE SHIT is what really makes me angry.

At least Terran or Protoss mechanics offer you a choice. With Zerg, you just set up some tumors and inject most of the time. Maybe make an extra queen and tumor up some more.

Speaking of macro mechanics, mules are stupid af. Let's let a race suicide SCVs and get a bigger army because god forbid you have to spend supply to mine minerals.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12161 Posts
July 27 2017 15:40 GMT
#169
On July 28 2017 00:22 KungKras wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2017 22:43 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 27 2017 22:38 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On July 27 2017 22:31 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 27 2017 03:57 Solar424 wrote:
On July 26 2017 20:25 Nebuchad wrote:
It's dying because of you.

Yes, criticizing the game and trying to identify ways to make it better is toxic, we should all just suck off Blizzard and say SC2 is the best it's ever been. Burying your head in the sand and saying SC2 is great while all the sponsors and players are leaving did more damage than anything. If people actually acknowledged the problems with SC2 and if Blizzard actually listened to the community than the game would be in a much better place.


I wasn't talking about him specifically for voicing criticism, I was talking about the sc2 community. It's trash. It's the main reason why the game isn't doing well.

Anything, regardless of quality, will be destroyed by its own fanbase deciding to be dicks about it.

Two or three years ago I came across someone who was tired of BW, they made a post on TL about how it was boring and he didn't like Flash, I don't remember the specifics. The community jumped on him, defended its game. This is what is supposed to happen on a fan site.

Any fan site where "Is the game that we are supposed to be fans of complete shit?" is a recurring discussion and where you are called toxic for not appreciating this discussion will not lead to a healthy future for the subject of said site.

Sorry but if anything this behavior is a result of there being (perceived) problems with the game. This also happens in every community ever, go to the big subreddits and you will see threads complaining about the game, the developer, etc.
That's just how things go and as long as it's somewhat constructive that's also how it should be.
If the developer reacts and actually understands what the majority of the community wants, that's another issue.


WIth that being said, i still stand to my first statement that starcraft "got wrecked" (well it obviously didn't die or anything that extreme) because there is actual competition right now. Competition the more casual audience would rather play.
The same will happen to SC:R in korea as well, young people play OW and LoL there.


The fact that there are problems within a game isn't enough. Broodwar has units that literally can't be controlled accurately, dragoons. That is what we call, objectively, a problem. They created a legend of autumn protoss schematically cause protoss couldn't win in normal conditions and so in autumn they put favorable maps for protoss in the map pool and a protoss would win the competition off of that. That's a problem. I'm pretty sure I remember reading about periods where a race would be at 20% winrate against another and no patch would come. That's a problem.

Problems don't kill a game on their own. You do.


Wait, no! Just... No! That the winrate was at 20% in a matchup and that the players later on figured out the matchup WITHOUT a balance patch and brought it back to close to 50% is the OPPOSITE of a problem. It speaks just to how well-designed the game is.

Sometimes something isn't as imbalanced as it seems and jumping the gun with a million patches is just going to take away the joy of figuring the game out from the players.


And during this time the players of the unfortunate race make 40% of the money they should be making in a match-up. That is a problem. You also don't know for a fact that the problem will be fixed when it's happening, cause if you did, you would know how and it would be fixed already. So the manifestation of a game that is just 80% imbalanced and has no issue is the same as the manifestation of a game that is 80% imbalanced by the meta and will be corrected in a few years.

But your reaction is the healthy one, you see what can be perceived as a problem and you defend the game. That's what a fan community should be doing.
No will to live, no wish to die
Lucumo
Profile Joined January 2010
6850 Posts
July 27 2017 15:41 GMT
#170
On July 27 2017 17:46 Creager wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2017 17:14 Lucumo wrote:
On July 27 2017 16:50 ionONE wrote:
My first starcraft game was sc2, saw it advertised in late 2009. I was always a huge RTS fan, starting with dune 2000 and Age of Empires in 1998 but somehow didnt know starcraft/broodwar was a thing ...

Damn, why didn't you watch Brood War on TV? It was there, along with CS 1.6, Fifa, Warcraft 3 and the like.


Chances to watch esports back then in Germany were very slim, the only TV show I can think of that might have covered something like this was GIGA.

GIGA was a channel, not a show. And yes, they broadcasted games every week. Popular ones such as Warcraft 3 obviously had more games shown (Wednesday, Friday, often Saturday).
There was also GIGA 2 but since it was only a stream and I had a crappy connection at the time, I never bothered.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12161 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-27 15:43:18
July 27 2017 15:42 GMT
#171
On July 28 2017 00:35 KungKras wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2017 00:26 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 28 2017 00:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:
You think it's a cause, i think it's a reaction. The outcome is obviously the same. (unhappy people who might leave sooner or later)


When you say it's a reaction it seems to imply that there's a root cause x (problems in the game) that inevitably leads to y (community being shit). I used the example of problems in BW to show that it's not the case. If you didn't mean the inevitable part, then sure it's a reaction, but that's not really an interesting point to make cause I would then argue it's a bad reaction.


Maybe, just maybe. The problems that you listed in BW are not the kind of problems that drain the fun out of it and alienates an audience? I mean BW never alientated its audience because of those problems. In fact it remained relevant for 20 years.

All problems aren't equal you know.


SC2 community can't stand a 45-55 imbalance and thinks the game is dying because Blizzard is shit and don't listen to the community if it lasts for a month. BW community stands a 80-20 imbalance for longer periods and defends it.

Maybe, just maybe it's not the size of the problems that is important, but how you react to them?
No will to live, no wish to die
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
July 27 2017 15:47 GMT
#172
On July 28 2017 00:26 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2017 00:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:
You think it's a cause, i think it's a reaction. The outcome is obviously the same. (unhappy people who might leave sooner or later)


When you say it's a reaction it seems to imply that there's a root cause x (problems in the game) that inevitably leads to y (community being shit). I used the example of problems in BW to show that it's not the case. If you didn't mean the inevitable part, then sure it's a reaction, but that's not really an interesting point to make cause I would then argue it's a bad reaction.

Well i am stating that in the end the only thing that really matters is if the audience has (enough) fun with the game. If not then the audience will criticize it. People who extremely unhappy will move on, other people will stay because it's still worth their time, etc. This is a spectrum, i am sure there is nobody who can say he is 100% happy with any product.
I am still not quite sure if you are suggesting that the criticism of the game itself makes other people leave who wouldn't otherwise (cause) or if you are simply stating that unhappy people mean that the game loses players (reaction; also quite obvious)
I don't know enough about the history of the bw community, but i would assume that back then there also were a lot of balance whiners, etc. Right now the active core treats bw like the word of god though.

I mentioned other communities like csgo, dota2 and lol because there people also make angry posts about the game. I really don't think this is special to sc2, which is why i say you are exaggerating.
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
KungKras
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden484 Posts
July 27 2017 15:48 GMT
#173
On July 28 2017 00:42 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2017 00:35 KungKras wrote:
On July 28 2017 00:26 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 28 2017 00:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:
You think it's a cause, i think it's a reaction. The outcome is obviously the same. (unhappy people who might leave sooner or later)


When you say it's a reaction it seems to imply that there's a root cause x (problems in the game) that inevitably leads to y (community being shit). I used the example of problems in BW to show that it's not the case. If you didn't mean the inevitable part, then sure it's a reaction, but that's not really an interesting point to make cause I would then argue it's a bad reaction.


Maybe, just maybe. The problems that you listed in BW are not the kind of problems that drain the fun out of it and alienates an audience? I mean BW never alientated its audience because of those problems. In fact it remained relevant for 20 years.

All problems aren't equal you know.


SC2 community can't stand a 45-55 imbalance and thinks the game is dying because Blizzard is shit and don't listen to the community if it lasts for a month. BW community stands a 80-20 imbalance for longer periods and defends it.

Maybe, just maybe it's not the size of the problems that is important, but how you react to them?


I think the part of my post that you decided to leave out answers that

When you say that the game is dying because of negative voices you're putting the blame on the players and the community, which is ridiculous. The responisbility lies on the game, not the other way around.


It's the game that bears the responsibility. I think Blizzard releasing too many balance patches and conditioning the audience into expecting new updates everytime a winrate changes is what's to blame here.

If BW still had an 80-20 imbalance, nobody would have defended it.
"When life gives me lemons, I go look for oranges"
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12161 Posts
July 27 2017 15:52 GMT
#174
On July 28 2017 00:48 KungKras wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2017 00:42 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 28 2017 00:35 KungKras wrote:
On July 28 2017 00:26 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 28 2017 00:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:
You think it's a cause, i think it's a reaction. The outcome is obviously the same. (unhappy people who might leave sooner or later)


When you say it's a reaction it seems to imply that there's a root cause x (problems in the game) that inevitably leads to y (community being shit). I used the example of problems in BW to show that it's not the case. If you didn't mean the inevitable part, then sure it's a reaction, but that's not really an interesting point to make cause I would then argue it's a bad reaction.


Maybe, just maybe. The problems that you listed in BW are not the kind of problems that drain the fun out of it and alienates an audience? I mean BW never alientated its audience because of those problems. In fact it remained relevant for 20 years.

All problems aren't equal you know.


SC2 community can't stand a 45-55 imbalance and thinks the game is dying because Blizzard is shit and don't listen to the community if it lasts for a month. BW community stands a 80-20 imbalance for longer periods and defends it.

Maybe, just maybe it's not the size of the problems that is important, but how you react to them?


I think the part of my post that you decided to leave out answers that

Show nested quote +
When you say that the game is dying because of negative voices you're putting the blame on the players and the community, which is ridiculous. The responisbility lies on the game, not the other way around.


It's the game that bears the responsibility. I think Blizzard releasing too many balance patches and conditioning the audience into expecting new updates everytime a winrate changes is what's to blame here.

If BW still had an 80-20 imbalance, nobody would have defended it.


I have higher expectations for human beings than you do. I don't think "releasing too many patches" is a sufficient factor to go "oh well obviously they are conditioned now it's not their fault". Yeah, it's their fault. They shouldn't be reacting this way.
No will to live, no wish to die
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States907 Posts
July 27 2017 15:54 GMT
#175
When BW has an imbalance, the community starts to play maps that have a different win rate in those match-ups or comes up with new maps to fix those imbalances.

It used to be that Fighting Spirit was considered a balanced map, but recently Terrans have been dominating on it because of its turtly nature, so Circuit Breaker became the new standard map.

Now, this also made it harder for Protoss players vs. Zerg, so ASL 3 is going to have new maps. We'll see how Protoss players do vs. Zerg and how Zerg does vs. Terran. Historically TvP has been the closest to 50% matchup, so it's usually not a point of emphasis when it comes to balance.
MymSlorm
Profile Joined May 2017
Chile187 Posts
July 27 2017 16:01 GMT
#176
i would add that SC2 Skill ceiling isn't that high because of MBS, unlimited unit selection, very intelligent units, smartcasting, etc. which give us more randomize results. In broodwar you have to train hard, and be very good at your mechanics to have good macro, you have to train a lot to have great micro skills, and so on in order to get the edge over your opponent, it's what separates casuals, from experienced players, or amateurs from professionals, while in SC2 even a novice player can have decent macro or micro thanks to those automatic features to macro and micro
"There will always be a new generation of youth, they will be more beautiful, more vigorous, and they shall inspire greater hope for the future in the hearts of the living"
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12161 Posts
July 27 2017 16:01 GMT
#177
On July 28 2017 00:47 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 28 2017 00:26 Nebuchad wrote:
On July 28 2017 00:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:
You think it's a cause, i think it's a reaction. The outcome is obviously the same. (unhappy people who might leave sooner or later)


When you say it's a reaction it seems to imply that there's a root cause x (problems in the game) that inevitably leads to y (community being shit). I used the example of problems in BW to show that it's not the case. If you didn't mean the inevitable part, then sure it's a reaction, but that's not really an interesting point to make cause I would then argue it's a bad reaction.

Well i am stating that in the end the only thing that really matters is if the audience has (enough) fun with the game. If not then the audience will criticize it. People who extremely unhappy will move on, other people will stay because it's still worth their time, etc. This is a spectrum, i am sure there is nobody who can say he is 100% happy with any product.
I am still not quite sure if you are suggesting that the criticism of the game itself makes other people leave who wouldn't otherwise (cause) or if you are simply stating that unhappy people mean that the game loses players (reaction; also quite obvious)
I don't know enough about the history of the bw community, but i would assume that back then there also were a lot of balance whiners, etc. Right now the active core treats bw like the word of god though.

I mentioned other communities like csgo, dota2 and lol because there people also make angry posts about the game. I really don't think this is special to sc2, which is why i say you are exaggerating.



Can you imagine any way a positive community could improve the fun you have with a game and a negative community could decrease it?

Let's go play poker. I'm going to stand next to you and every time a coinflip happens, I'm going to tell you how this game is so dumb cause you have to take these and you only win 50% and any dumbass can win a flip.

Alternative hypothesis, I'm next to you and I speak enthusiastically about constructing ranges and creating a strategy that helps you reduce the luck factor in the game and outskill your opponents using the exact same tools they have.

Do you think any of these scenarios can influence the fun you'll have with poker?
No will to live, no wish to die
ortseam
Profile Joined April 2015
996 Posts
July 27 2017 16:15 GMT
#178
Btw, there has never been a (prolonged) period of 80-20 imbalance in any matchup, not even 60-40 ( just check out ogn-mbc yearly statistics). But yeah, balance works differently in BW as iopq explains.
sabas123
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands3122 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-27 16:32:16
July 27 2017 16:23 GMT
#179
On July 28 2017 01:01 MymSlorm wrote:
i would add that SC2 Skill ceiling isn't that high because of MBS, unlimited unit selection, very intelligent units, smartcasting, etc. which give us more randomize results. In broodwar you have to train hard, and be very good at your mechanics to have good macro, you have to train a lot to have great micro skills, and so on in order to get the edge over your opponent, it's what separates casuals, from experienced players, or amateurs from professionals, while in SC2 even a novice player can have decent macro or micro thanks to those automatic features to macro and micro

But this simply wrong on so many levels, unless you suddenly redefine a novice as high master/gm player. I recently played at ~5k mmr and in now way did I ever saw a game where somebody came close to player perfect.

Also lol at the argument that any C lvl player can have perfect macro games. Even most of the top pro's in the current scene can't, and that includes most ex-kespa players. And I don't even know how many pros had "perfect games" on multiple occasions.
The harder it becomes, the more you should focus on the basics.
hitthat
Profile Joined January 2010
Poland2267 Posts
July 27 2017 16:49 GMT
#180
Gameplay rewarding doomstacking way too much.
Lack of stabilized metagame.
Units killing each other way too fast.
Multiplayer beeing less exiting that BW (for Koreans)
Dark ages for RTS

And besides that:
Ultra retarded story in single player

Shameless BroodWar separatistic, elitist, fanaticaly devoted puritan fanboy.
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