EPTWhat wrecked SC2? - Page 7
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Marl
United States692 Posts
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XenOsky
Chile2267 Posts
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Entertaining
Canada793 Posts
On July 26 2017 21:00 vaL4r wrote: Thorin had this to say: "Part of why I think SC2 died out is because people don't, in general, find it fun to grind relatively hard 1v1 games for hours every night. In contrast, even the most difficult MOBA is still fairly fun and there's a lot of variety to be found in changing up the variable of your team-mates. I also do think that very hard games don't really have a place in modern esports. That has overwhelmingly been the trend over the history of esports and shows no signs of halting. Those who bill SC2, Dota2 or CS:GO as really hard games are fooling themselves or simply don't know enough about the games of the past. Esports is like if Chess had been a breakout sport and then someone had cynically figured out that if you make it less difficult and turn it into checkers then more people will be interested in playing and watching. Then someone brought out Monopoly and beat out both and cornered the market." source: https://www.reddit.com/r/thooorin/comments/5oj223/i_am_thorin_ama/dcktiwc/ I tend to agree. I disagree entirely with thorin here. You can't corner a gaming market with simplicity. If that was true Checkers would be more popular than Chess. If that was true Tic Tac Toe would be more popular than Checkers. That makes no sense. A gaming market is beat out by what brings you to want to play a game: FUN. The MAIN reason sc2 died was lack of fun, not because it's too hard. Be it the UMS fuck up, the HUGE rts flaws with the normal game, the massive failure that was the story line, the unexciting spells, uhg, I could go on. People were not enjoying themselves. Blizzard made a game that looks very nice. But forgot what made RTS's fun in the first place. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
I understand that shitting on SC2 is somewhat of a popular pastime in the BW forum, but all this talk about SC2 being a total failure is delusional. It did pretty good given the circumstances. Thus the "analysis" of ots failure is completely nonsensical. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On July 27 2017 10:50 Sigrun wrote: I've only played WoL, so my opinions are probably way outdated. But why I personally ended up quitting SC2 was that it was simply unfun and in some cases restricting. A lot of the new spells that Blizzard implemented ended up restricting micro instead of creating more interesting micro scenarios. For example, back then the most used spells I remember were Force Field, Fungal Growth, and Concussive Shells, which would trap/slow your units to the point where they pretty much couldn't even move, let alone escape. This made the game extremely boring because once your unit got hit by that spell, it was just like, "well no point in microing it since I can't even move". For example, if your units got hit by Fungal Growth, it was pretty much a death sentence since they would just cast it again as soon as it wore off. Compare the aforementioned spells to common Brood War spells like Plague, Stasis Field, or Irradiate. Even when plagued, your units can still move away and fight back. Even though Stasis Field stops your units from moving, they are invincible so the enemy can't kill them either. This allows for players to set up attacks and flanks at the right moment when stasis wears off. Even irradiate, which will inevitably kill any Zerg unit, gives Defilers enough time to consume to cast Dark Swarm or Plague. In Brood War's cases, the majority of spells still allow for micro and can create more exciting scenarios, rather than lock you down and just watch your units die. Well, there's literally a lockdown spell in Brood War. But it only affects one unit per shot. Perhaps more irritating is maelstrom, which will freeze all biological units for a short period of time. Ensnare is another great spell to consider, because it slows down movement AND rate-of-fire, which in some cases, can render the ensnared units nearly hopeless to attempt to micro. So it does exist in Brood War, but it's not like that mothership vortex that eats everything up. rmbr that? | ||
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sM.Zik
Canada2547 Posts
On July 27 2017 12:15 XenOsky- wrote: Health bars on top of everything You can remove these. Just thought i'd point that out. I was using the "damaged health bars only" settings and I thought it was great. | ||
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Gak2
Canada418 Posts
I think the biggest mistake was in unit design. Some of you made some great points that I agree with: anti-micro spells (how can you micro vs forcefields, fungal growth... compare this to dark swarm + psionic storm), lack of defenders advantage (in bw units inherently had defenders advantage, think lurkers, siege tanks, stronger static defense. Also cliff advantage), and certain mechanics stopped retreating (concussion shells, blink stalkers, super fast zerglings) . I could elaborate more but i'm too lazy. It feels like the unit design team didn't think with any depth at all (thanks Dustin Browder). | ||
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FusionCutter
Canada974 Posts
From the initial reveal: You could tell they were trying something too ambitious for its own good. Too hellbent on new units, forcing them to work, Thor, Colossus, etc. It was a wild ride, but it's amazing that we've come back to full circle to SC1. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On July 27 2017 14:37 opisska wrote: Nothing "wrecked" SC2. It's a great and fun game, for me much more interesting to both play and watch than broodwar. It doesn't have a huge following, but that's mostly the effect of comparing it with BW which was a unique cultural phenomenon of its time. Most people have since moved on to more social and casual games, that's just where the society is heading. But it still, after 7 years from launch, keeps a dedicated community that can raise 25 thousand bucks in an hour for a tournament. How many games can really say that? I understand that shitting on SC2 is somewhat of a popular pastime in the BW forum, but all this talk about SC2 being a total failure is delusional. It did pretty good given the circumstances. Thus the "analysis" of ots failure is completely nonsensical. Actually, the rule on this forum is "Don't start a game vs. game flame war". I'm not sure why this thread is open. I know why it got started, though. People want to change Brood War to accommodate them. These people are like 30ish-something dudes who think to themselves, "I'm really, really smart about strategy. I understand the game really well, and could be a god if there wasn't this stupid mechanics barrier." so they say Brood War's interface is outdated and demand stupid bullshit like multiple building selection be implemented into Brood War. When the forum inevitably rejects them, they cry about "Brood War elitism" every goddamn time because we generally don't even budge on little things. For example, to test the water, they go "HEY LET'S REDUCE SCOUTS BY 25 MINERALZ TO MAKE THEM VIABLE. WHAT DO YOU THINK FAM? ISN'T THAT IDEA GANGSTER AS FUCK?" and we're like "What? No." because that idea is garbage. If someone wants cheaper scouts, then they can make a custom map in StarEdit like the noob they are because true map-maker gosus use Scmdraft. But no, they get all huffy and want to push their shitty ideas on EVERYONE, because they got this idea in their heads that if they whine on this third-party forum hard enough, it's somehow going to influence Activision Blizzard because their genius idea could snowball and get featured on reddit's /fuckinghorribleideas/ forum. Then, in their imaginary reality full of free bacon and blowjobs, Blizzard's lead developers will call a staff meeting on a fucking weekend, and the guy in charge will be like, "Listen up, folks. I want you to clear your schedules and drop every project you're working on currently. I want you to go right into your cubicle and use your arms to slide everything off right onto the goddamn floor as a metaphor for having cleared your mind. You wanna know why? Because a friend sent me a Glarb + Show Spoiler + It's a holographic telepathic social media thing from the year 2021 Then that fantasy-bubble gets popped by the Spiked Dildo of Ultimate Truth which says "hey ur idea suck" and they get all periody and go, "You all are a bunch of fucking elitists because I make a suggestion for one tiny little itty bitty change that is literally smaller than my tiny microscopic penis that is literally negative inches long, or negative centimeters, for all the world who isn't part of America." and this is because it starts with these "little" changes, and then before you know it, they're asking for MBS, infinite unit control, and a big red button that plays the game for then while they eat doritos and think about what a fucking Brood War god they are. So no, I absolutely do not care that you like SC2 more than Brood War, and I'm glad you enjoy your game. May it live long and prosper. No, SC2 is not "dead" or "wrecked" or "ded" or "rekt" or "shrekt" or anything like that. The game has a huge multiplayer scene after 7 years, and it's still going. Very few other games can claim that. You can still go on SC2, click "find match" and get a game easily. So no no no, the reason people make threads like this is not to bash SC2, but is to beg the question, "Shouldn't we learn from SC2's demise so that Brood War won't also die?" which, again, uses the faulty premise that SC2 is "gone". This has two purposes: 1. Circlejerk; so someone from the old school can argue in favor of something a majority of people are already in favor of, which isn't to change anything but the graphics. 2. To lure people into raging about BW elitism, so essentially, trolling SC2 people. Both happened, so congratulations. I have cancer now. | ||
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Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On July 27 2017 15:19 Gak2 wrote: A couple of people share the same opinion as me: sc2 is just not fun, and I truly believe this is why it did not reach its potential and I think all other arguments are almost irrelevant. I only played WOL so it might be different now, but in a nutshell the game felt like an unstable equilibrium where even the slightest advantage quickly snowballs and abruptly ends the game. BW on the other hand feels like a tug of war combined with a slugfest. I think the biggest mistake was in unit design. Some of you made some great points that I agree with: anti-micro spells (how can you micro vs forcefields, fungal growth... compare this to dark swarm + psionic storm), lack of defenders advantage (in bw units inherently had defenders advantage, think lurkers, siege tanks, stronger static defense. Also cliff advantage), and certain mechanics stopped retreating (concussion shells, blink stalkers, super fast zerglings) . I could elaborate more but i'm too lazy. It feels like the unit design team didn't think with any depth at all (thanks Dustin Browder). I think the changes were actually all deliberate that way and achieved what they wanted - No defenders advantage means that games were more centered around aggression, which I remember their saying they wanted. Starting with 6 or now 12 workers means the "boring early game" gets cut out (even though there's plenty of strategic diversity in the early game). Effectiveness of early game harass was increased so there was "action right from the start," because apparently planning, warming up, etc. are bad but action is good. More spells and macro mechanics in order that have something to do with your APM now that so much more is automated and control groups are unlimited in size. But the faster paced and increased aggression were things that no one I know ever complained about... I literally never heard anyone say "God the beginning of the game is so slow and boring," at least not competitive players. Blizz must have looked at fastest map possible and thought "people are playing this, so we need to inject it in some form into the competitive scene." But Brood War was already stressful, and the faster opening and increased aggression made SC2 even MORE stressful. BW was hard enough that 1-2 minutes in the beginning of each game where you're not focusing on a million different things wasn't bad. | ||
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palexhur
Colombia730 Posts
On July 27 2017 14:37 opisska wrote: Nothing "wrecked" SC2. It's a great and fun game, for me much more interesting to both play and watch than broodwar. It doesn't have a huge following, but that's mostly the effect of comparing it with BW which was a unique cultural phenomenon of its time. Most people have since moved on to more social and casual games, that's just where the society is heading. But it still, after 7 years from launch, keeps a dedicated community that can raise 25 thousand bucks in an hour for a tournament. How many games can really say that? I understand that shitting on SC2 is somewhat of a popular pastime in the BW forum, but all this talk about SC2 being a total failure is delusional. It did pretty good given the circumstances. Thus the "analysis" of ots failure is completely nonsensical. It was a complete fail, it never could replaced the original and that was its goal, It was so well sold because the BW hype. I remember when you often bashed BW and praise SC2 as the ultimate phenomenon in games history, but here you are in this forum, why?. | ||
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PhaedrusSCV
United States5 Posts
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On July 27 2017 15:30 palexhur wrote: It was a complete fail, it never could replaced the original and that was its goal, It was so well sold because the BW hype. I remember when you often bashed BW and praise SC2 as the ultimate phenomenon in games history, but here you are in this forum, why?. 5 stages of grief. He is at bargaining i.e. telling everyone the SC2 situation isnt bad. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On July 27 2017 11:11 avilo wrote: Lack of attention and balance patches from developers. Oh my god, get out of the world. + Show Spoiler + Aka 1.5 yrs of broodlord infestor, 1.5 yrs of swarmhosts, now LOTV which is all-in after all-in, and gimmick after gimmick. 12 worker start and economy had entirely adverse effects on the game. Uh huh, uh huh. 12 worker start = short games like Command and Conquer + more build order wins/coin flips. Games get underway faster at the expense of you having no fucking clue if your opening build is getting mega hard countered by a proxy or random bullshit build from the opponent. By the time you scout their build and attack or all-in in LOTV it's already to your base with ZERO reaction time. You have to have already countered whatever it is they are doing or you lose. Mhm, mhm. In WOL/HOTS you had time to scout the all-in, and then another 30-45 seconds to prepare and react to the opponent. This created skill gameplay where the better player always will win. LOTV is not skill gameplay - it's coinflip / bullshit gameplay where a worse player can beat a better player through blind aggression. Gotcha. To make the above point worse - removing 1500 mineral patches at each base again makes it so whoever blindly suicides units into worker lines and attack, attack, attacks gets the free advantage of expanding regardless if their attacks are stopped and held or not. This is terrible gameplay and allows worse players a chance to beat better players WHICH IS NOT HOW A SKILL GAME IS SUPPOSED TO BE. Yeah, removing 1500 minerals is stupid but Now we get to balance patches again. They are non-existent since the game's inception. We have developers that for some reason refuse to fix things like adepts, swarmhosts, 8 armor ultras for almost 1+ yr at a time while these things completely ruin the game and dry up the player base that gets fed up with non-sense being in the game. THEN PLAY A DIFFERENT FUCKING GAME. Holy mother of shit, why would you play a game that you sincerely believe is fundamentally broken? You're acting like the game is your baby or your dog, and Russian gangsters are trying to kill your dog and steal your car. As for balance patches, I can't even count how many fucking balance patches they've released, which is precisely why I don't play SC2 anymore. Ever. As of right now - swarmhosts, ravens, carriers, pylon cannon under the ramp, invincible nydus worms...are just a list of a FEW of the things that should require balance patches and are either ignored since LOTV launch or the devs simply do not care or acknowledge that they are issues at this point. HOTS games lasted on average 25 minutes to 35 minutes i would say, for a very good macro game between two good players. This allowed viewers to open up a stream, and tune into the game most likely as it is getting underway or already is into the action. LOTV games last on average 8-15 minutes, and often times end abruptly from the most random bullshit like adepts+WP or 10 workers getting murdered or a huge doom drop. This means a viewer that tunes into the game is already too late to watch the damn game. You open the stream and the game is either already over or a new one just started at the very beginning. The likelihood for you to open a stream and be already in the thick of things is just naturally less likely due to the average gamelength being artificially decreased by Blizzard entertainment. I still do not know why so few people acknowledge this or bring it up. blah blah blah Sounds like personal issues. I remember getting 6000-7000 viewers on my stream during 3 hr swarmhost qualifier games. LONG GAMES BRING IN VIEWERS, SUSTAIN VIEWERS, AND ALLOW FOR PEOPLE TO TUNE INTO THE GAMES. WHY DO YOU THINK MOBA GAMES DO SO WELL? MOBA games on average last 25 minute to 45 minutes...JUST LIKE WOL/HOTS GAMES LASTED. Too much causation vs. correlation fallacy here. The average game-time in WoL was around 15 minutes, and yet, the viewer counts for streamers and professional tournaments were higher than during the HotS era. Because this directly contradicts your point here, you will curl up into a shell of denial and anger, because once again, you show that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. You're not a game designer, and you have no idea what makes a game popular. It has more to do with marketing than actual game content. That's why Angry Birds became the biggest game in North America and even got turned into a major motion picture. Region locking...this is a droplet of water in the pool compared to LACK OF BALANCE PATCHES/DESIGN patches and LACK OF ITERATION from Blizzard in regards to SC2. Arguments can be made for or against region locking, and peopel can argue what it's impacts had or didn't have from doing or not doing it. At the end of the day it does not matter if the core gameplay of the game we all know and love is dogshit from imbalance like mass infestors or swarmhosts. The opposite is more likely to be true. Blizzard should have implemented less balance patches, but they seem like they over-correct constantly. The community of SC2, the SJW types What the fuck does "social justice" have to do with this? That's a fucking useless pejorative, unlikely to lend any sort of legitimacy to your argument because "EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS AN SJW" is some tired shit. , are also responsible for SC2's decline because these fucks out there won't ever acknowledge the issues that SC2 has in any meaningful type of discussion. These are the people on reddit, forums everywhere, even some here on TL - that try to stifle any discussion related to SC2 balance or design and immediately start to spout the: "It's a perfect balanced game, stop saying stuff is imbalanced, nothing needs to change, our game is great." Dare I ask why... No it's not. It's not 2011. It's 2017 and there are currently swarmhosts in the game that entirely negate mech play. So finally it comes out. The real fucking reason. Because it hurts your feelings, because your goddamn limp-dick mech-play doesn't win games, and now you're so stuck in your ways that you can't bring yourself to consider playing with a unit composition that actually wins games. Nope. It's gotta be the goddamn mech because... reasons? I mean, mech is like... anti-strategy. You just sit there and slowly move shit forward. I mean, if it was good enough for WORLD WAR ONE, it's good enough for StarCraft Too. But THEN, when a Zerg does the same shit -- makes a unit where they can just sit there and do a war of attrition -- with swarmhosts, you shit your fucking pants over it. Another thing that gets me is that when you sit there in a fixed position, you essentially forfeit offense to your opponent, which means they have to decide when and where and how to attack, but THEN, get mad when they do something smart like a drop. Why would they not do a drop? Why would they just attack into your strongest defenses? Do you not understand human psychology? It's just remarkable how you continuously tout this obtuse play style and yet fail to understand the limitations that it puts on you, so you blame the game itself for being counter-productive to your wins. Just... don't come to Brood War. You're going to get stomped so hard over here, then blame it on the game. I already know every excuse you're going to make before you even make them. "This map is bullshit", "They did a bullshit all-in", "They're stream-sniping", "There are definitely maphacks in Brood War now", "Stupid units won't listen to my commands", "Stupid game is bullshit", "There too much lag", "The pathing in this game is so retarded it makes me not even want to play.", then you throw your stupid backwards hat at the webcam. You know how I know? Not because you're a predictable person, but because virtually everyone experiences this shit. I've said all of these things. And you know what? I didn't have a good attitude, but at least I try to change it and not blame anything outside of myself. You do the exact opposite and double-down on blaming everything but yourself, and that's why people make fun of you. But anyways, there's a lot i'm missing probably. But tbh none of it matters at all other than one thing as i said: BALANCE / DESIGN PATCHES. Until this happens on a consistent basis, SC2 will never grow again, and the game is indeed pretty dead and we'll stay at around the level we're at. Which maybe some people are OK with, but honestly i'd like to SC2 rise again to where it belongs. No, they need to get it right and then stop fucking with it. | ||
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fish_radio
182 Posts
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ionONE
Germany605 Posts
I actually bought broodwar 3 weeks ahead of the sc2 release, played it a little but didn't touch it again until mid 2011. There was huge hype surrounding sc2, watched every esport tournament and played a good amount. Even is my little town in east germany we had public viewing at one point^^ I stopped playing by april 2011, its was not fun anymore but kept watching sc2 esports until 2014/2015. What made me sick were most of these maps like steps of war, lost temple (blizzards attempt to design maps ... slag pits anyone?) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Slag_Pits close spawn and others with short rush distance. I felt "cheated" by protoss, just not fun to play against blink stalker all in (yes more bullshit was possible) thanks to chrono boost/ at the time 5 rax reaper all in and others. You had to identify these builds very fast or its just that gg, games end in a matter seconds ... its stressful and not fun. My problem was not balance but the units/design in general. Last hope was blizzcon 2011, saw the units presented and was disappointed. - removal of custom bnet ui (Kpop for example) by early 2011 - took blizzard until 2013 april to implement a simple button into the launcher "watch MLG" yes thats how slow these guys work! --- I followed the discussion broodwar vs sc2 at the time, decided to watch some bw (wcg2010 flash vs jaedong casted by apollo) and it was love at first sight. Followed the last last osl/spl and still love the game to this day  | ||
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Navane
Netherlands2748 Posts
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Lucumo
6850 Posts
On July 27 2017 16:50 ionONE wrote: My first starcraft game was sc2, saw it advertised in late 2009. I was always a huge RTS fan, starting with dune 2000 and Age of Empires in 1998 but somehow didnt know starcraft/broodwar was a thing ... Damn, why didn't you watch Brood War on TV? It was there, along with CS 1.6, Fifa, Warcraft 3 and the like. | ||
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