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Active: 32817 users

Goliath 2.0 (replace cyclone proposal)

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GDI
Profile Joined July 2011
United States69 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-27 22:39:17
November 27 2015 22:35 GMT
#1
[image loading]
TL;DR Scroll down to the bolded text. This is wall of text because I feel like I need to explain myself. Keep in mind that it's just an idea and there are a billion and one other suggestions for the Goliath.

I wanted to propose a new version of the Goliath to Terran that is based on the current discussion on cyclones. In case people haven't been up to date with the cyclone discussion I'll link some threads. These threads highlight why the cyclone is bad and more importantly why it can never be fixed. The new Goliath would have elements of the cyclone while maintaining it's own essence as a dependable ground combat unit.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/496628-fixing-the-cyclone
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/496180-iaguz-cyclones-who-needs-em


So with the list of mech units we can get an idea of what units can be categorized as. Backbone units like the siege tank and Thor are strong dependable units that can hold their ground. Fast Harass units are fast on the field and are meant for high risk high reward damage. When these units are moved across the map it is generally accepted by the player that their is a strong possibility that these units may not return home. Hellions are perfect because they are a mineral cheap unit that can be produced in pairs. Cyclones however are 150/150/3 with 120 HP and require a tech lab. This price tag and HP does not reflect what the cyclone is intended for which is constantly engaging while being micromanaged. Cyclones are NOT cheap and cannot be replaced easily. For every cyclone that is built is production time taken away from the dependable siege tanks and Thors. Cyclones however fill a role in the mech composition as an early ground/air combat unit. These guys are good at taking down early banshees because they are more reliable than the widow mine and cheaper than the Thor. However their early game AA defense overlaps with the viking in terms of long range missiles.

One of my favorite units, the Viking, are unique in SC2 because they can land and take off. Their cousin unit, Goliaths, aren't unique to the game because they are generic air/ground fighters (think Hydralisk/Stalker/Marine). However that doesn't mean changes can be made to the Goliath if it were to enter the SC2 arsenal. Think of how the liberator was invented. It's essentially the same exact thing as the Valkyrie with an added ability! My idea is to replace the Goliath's long range AA missiles with a 2nd pair of chain guns but give it a ground to ground 'skill shot'. This unit would also get selection priority over the other ground mech units.

The keywords and points to consider with a new Terran mech are:
1. Not overpowering (think warhound)
2. Reliable damage to the ground and air (think stalker)
3. Not overlapping with other units with similar role (think Thor)
4. Skill


Goliath 2.0 (lack of a better name)

Inspired by the scene 'Battle for Zion' from The Matrix ->


-Take away Hellfire-AA scatter missiles and replace with a second Twin anti-armor 30mm smoothbore autocannons. (yayyy bullets)
-Can move and shoot the ground like a cyclone.
-Must stand in place to shoot the air.
-This unit can target ground and Air similtaniously.(damage and range can be adjusted for balance)(also unique to sc2 ladder)
-Standing still air attack could have a bullet flury animation to visually indicate that it's attacking air.
-Skill shot that makes the unit more interesting and behave differently.


Requires Factory + Techlab. 150 Minerals 75 Gas 3 supply.
(for reference: Goliaths cost 100/50/2 and Cyclones cost 150/150/3 and vikings cost 150/75/2)

Movement
Normal. Not fast. Because it can move and shoot the ground it's important that things can out run it. That being said if you absent mindedly A-move this unit across the map you need to be careful that it doesn't travel to deep into enemy territory. Players will have to be mindful of where they Attack move and Stop command. When this unit is A-moved with other units; those other units are going to stop and shoot while these guys will continue moving forward to shoot. This could potentially make the unit clunky to work with but I'm only speculating.

Health
125 hit points armored

Similar to the cyclone but this unit isn't going to find itself in a high risk high reward situation. However their HP is higher than an infantry unit but average for a mechanical. Being that is armored is considered a weakness. Most units in the game do additional damage to armored. The armor attribute also communicates that this unit is more dependable versus infantry and light units.

Weapons
Ground attack: 12(+1) Range 6. Can move while shooting.
Air attack: 12(+1) Range 6. Cannot move while shooting.
Advance lock on: Ground and air weapons can attack simultaneously.

Because this unit can move and shoot while both pairs of auto cannons can attack at the same time it's really important that their individual ground and air damage is sub average. Goliaths and Vikings already do 12 damage with their Auto cannons. In contrast the Vikings cannot simultaneously shoot air and ground their total DPS is either their ground or air attack. Goliath 2.0 is characterized as a Non-dedicated damage support. You wouldn't want to buy these guys in response to a heavy ground based attack. That being said: most army compositions ARE ground based which is why it has a dedicated ground skill shot to supplement more damage but is not overpowering.

Skill Shot Ability
Tech lab research
Haywire Missle
- 40 damage
- Range 7
- 15 second cool down
- Goliath stands still to cast.
- 2 Seconds Cast time.
- Air weapon disabled during the duration of the ability.
- Ground weapon still functional.

-Skill shot with an indicator. (think corrosive bile)
-Must stand still to cast.
-Doesn't make the unit confusing (it has to stand still to shoot AA or cast ability - and it's one of the other)
-Medium cool down. (corrosive bile is 10 seconds. Purification nova is 21 seconds)
-Supplements more ground damage while dealing ground damage with it's auto cannon.

After a brief period of time the Goliath 2.0 stands stationary to load an anti-ground Haywire missile onto it's shoulder and shoots at the target destination for a very small explosion. During the time of this ability it's Anti-Air weaponry is disabled but can still operate its ground attack. It's AA weapon come back online when the missile reaches it's destination. It has a longer cool down compared to the Ravager's corrosive bile so it's not nearly as spam-able. This is interesting because the player needs to decide do they want to continue their Air damage or add more ground damage.

So this unit is unique because it can move-command and shoot the ground but once it A-moves in-range of an air unit it becomes stationary while targeting the ground and air. The player will visually see that both weapons are activated because the anti air attack creates a bullet fury effect. This essentially doubles it's DPS. While this can be considered really good and overpowered you have to remember that SC2 is a strategy game and this unit mechanic can be taken advantage of if it's not positioned correctly when it attacks air or casts its ability.
ledarsi
Profile Joined September 2010
United States475 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-27 23:12:57
November 27 2015 23:08 GMT
#2
The most important function on the Goliath is its range 9 ground-to-air attack. Its ground-to-ground attack being mediocre-bad is also significant since it can stand in the way of the tanks and die buying time for them if necessary, but this isn't exactly ideal.

If you wanted to make a highly mobile surface-to-air combat unit, I think the best approach is just to modify the Cyclone into being mostly a specialized anti-air unit. It would move and fire at range 9 and deal high DPS at a high rate of fire against flying units. The idea here would be that against units like Mutalisks the Cyclone would be a stronger choice than the Viking, whereas against Carriers/BCs/Broodlords a stronger choice would be the Viking.

The Goliath in BW was a much more all-around anti-air unit, capable of engaging both Mutalisks and Carriers effectively. I also would absolutely be down for adopting a Goliath-like design as you suggest. The Factory just needs an anti-air specialist very badly.

I like your idea of making the Goliath a more micro intensive ground combat unit by enabling it to move. Perhaps we could build on that idea by copying a mechanic from the BW Goliath; the BW Goliath's turret can only rotate around the front 180 degrees (90 degrees left or right) enabling it to 'kite' forward or sideways, but not while backing away from a target. This allows a Goliath to stop-shoot micro while advancing or strafing, but not kiting while backing away from an advancing enemy.

Perhaps the Goliath's main weapons (twin 30mm autocannons) could be given a special feature which also opens up opportunities to micro. Not a spammable ability like Corrosive Bile or Reaper grenades, but something that adds finesse instead of ability spam. Perhaps the Goliath may fire at two different targets (both must be within firing arc). This means you have to maneuver the Goliath so that there are two different enemies within its front 180 degree arc in order to maximize its damage, and can fire while moving sideways, so you should strafe a line of Goliaths in a curve sideways around the target areas, trying to ensure each Goliath can fire at two targets.
"First decide who you would be, then do what you must do."
TelecoM
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States10668 Posts
November 28 2015 00:41 GMT
#3
I'd think it would be cool to have more BW units back, so I support this.
AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting
CptMarvel
Profile Joined May 2014
France236 Posts
November 28 2015 00:44 GMT
#4
Guys I think we're not getting the Goliath back as long as Vikings are in th game. The two units are, no matter how you look at it, way too similar.
ledarsi
Profile Joined September 2010
United States475 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-28 00:49:25
November 28 2015 00:46 GMT
#5
If it's a contest between a Factory unit shooting flying units and a Starport unit shooting flying units, I will take the Factory unit. Every time. The Viking is a very poor substitute, more in line with the Wraith, a flying anti-air unit from the Starport.

The SC2 dev team has this annoying tendency to replace a straightforward solution that works, with a gimmicky unit which doesn't. Like "Transformers" is the gimmick for the Viking, despite the fact that its gimmick is almost useless. Or "Giant Robots" is the gimmick for the Thor, despite the fact that its enormous size and huge cost makes it terrible at its job.

The original design for the Viking was vastly superior to the version which ultimately shipped with WoL. It was a Factory unit which could shoot air units while landed, and which had a researchable upgrade which allowed it to transform into a flying unit.
"First decide who you would be, then do what you must do."
DemigodcelpH
Profile Joined August 2011
1138 Posts
November 28 2015 00:47 GMT
#6
On November 28 2015 09:44 CptMarvel wrote:
Guys I think we're not getting the Goliath back as long as Vikings are in th game. The two units are, no matter how you look at it, way too similar.

The Starport in BW had the wraith which attacked air (primary purpose) and ground (a lot weaker) which is essentially what the Viking is the spiritual successor of.
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
November 28 2015 00:55 GMT
#7
Now that beta is over we're going to stop allowing these threads. Basically because they have zero influence on the design team and only live in the world of theory craft.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
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