|
|
On March 21 2014 05:05 Sub40APM wrote:
Its kind of funny situation for Cyprus I guess. On one hand, it had Turkey invade and occupy its territory 'to protect Turkish race' so pretty similar parallels to what's happening in Ukraine.
No, Turkey is an ally, so no need to flame them. And if you look a ittle bit more to the south east, you should find something even more funny!! no spoilers
|
On March 21 2014 05:29 Saumure wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2014 05:05 Sub40APM wrote:
Its kind of funny situation for Cyprus I guess. On one hand, it had Turkey invade and occupy its territory 'to protect Turkish race' so pretty similar parallels to what's happening in Ukraine. No, Turkey is an ally, so no need to flame them. And if you look a ittle bit more to the south east, you should find something even more funny!! no spoilers
uhhhhh... He was referring Cyprus-Turkey relations which are obviously bad. So it's difficult for Cyprus who to side with. Russia who puts their money in Cyprus OR to criticize Russia since Cyprus feels like Ukraine - they were also invaded after a coup.
|
On March 21 2014 01:34 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2014 22:59 heliusx wrote:On March 20 2014 22:25 -Archangel- wrote:On March 20 2014 22:22 sgtnoobkilla wrote:On March 20 2014 21:44 Saumure wrote:
So... how many people did Russia kill in Ukraine up until now? But General Secre-...President Putin and Comrade Lavrov say those "polite people" definitely aren't Russians, so we have to believe them!  On March 20 2014 20:25 whiteLotus wrote:
See ya Baltics , hope you havent forgot russian language :\ He would have to really lose all of his marbles if he tried that rubbish with Estonia. I'm pretty sure even Putin wouldn't dare to take a NATO member head-on like that. As for the rest of Ukraine however... Well since Obama said USA does not want a military conflict with Russia, Putin just might try it. Not over the Ukraine but over NATO members its a given. Truthfully I don't believe they will. They and UK also signed an agreement (and Russia) to protect Ukraine and they didn't do shit while Russia did opposite. When push comes to shove, USA interests trump all others and war with Russia is a big NO-NO.
America will act if anyone attacks NATO. There's really no room for discussion.
|
Interesting to see what happens to Timchenko, he has Finnish citizenship too
|
On March 21 2014 06:04 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2014 01:34 -Archangel- wrote:On March 20 2014 22:59 heliusx wrote:On March 20 2014 22:25 -Archangel- wrote:On March 20 2014 22:22 sgtnoobkilla wrote:On March 20 2014 21:44 Saumure wrote:
So... how many people did Russia kill in Ukraine up until now? But General Secre-...President Putin and Comrade Lavrov say those "polite people" definitely aren't Russians, so we have to believe them! On March 20 2014 20:25 whiteLotus wrote:
See ya Baltics , hope you havent forgot russian language :\ He would have to really lose all of his marbles if he tried that rubbish with Estonia. I'm pretty sure even Putin wouldn't dare to take a NATO member head-on like that. As for the rest of Ukraine however... Well since Obama said USA does not want a military conflict with Russia, Putin just might try it. Not over the Ukraine but over NATO members its a given. Truthfully I don't believe they will. They and UK also signed an agreement (and Russia) to protect Ukraine and they didn't do shit while Russia did opposite. When push comes to shove, USA interests trump all others and war with Russia is a big NO-NO. America will act if anyone attacks NATO. There's really no room for discussion.
I'd argue that right now it is *highly* unlikely that Putin would try it. But since he's basically dictator for life, one could make the argument that dictators get a feeling of invincibility over time. In which case, Putin could attack NATO allies in Eastern Europe. I'd say that the chance of a serious war with Russia are minimal but if it happens, it'll be in years with Putin going crazy after becoming too used to Western passivity.
|
On March 21 2014 06:04 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2014 01:34 -Archangel- wrote:On March 20 2014 22:59 heliusx wrote:On March 20 2014 22:25 -Archangel- wrote:On March 20 2014 22:22 sgtnoobkilla wrote:On March 20 2014 21:44 Saumure wrote:
So... how many people did Russia kill in Ukraine up until now? But General Secre-...President Putin and Comrade Lavrov say those "polite people" definitely aren't Russians, so we have to believe them! On March 20 2014 20:25 whiteLotus wrote:
See ya Baltics , hope you havent forgot russian language :\ He would have to really lose all of his marbles if he tried that rubbish with Estonia. I'm pretty sure even Putin wouldn't dare to take a NATO member head-on like that. As for the rest of Ukraine however... Well since Obama said USA does not want a military conflict with Russia, Putin just might try it. Not over the Ukraine but over NATO members its a given. Truthfully I don't believe they will. They and UK also signed an agreement (and Russia) to protect Ukraine and they didn't do shit while Russia did opposite. When push comes to shove, USA interests trump all others and war with Russia is a big NO-NO. America will act if anyone attacks NATO. There's really no room for discussion.
Unless you are secretary of defense for USA or the president, there is a lot of room for discussion.
Also while USA might help with logistics and military equipment, they would not be required to use full military might.
And I am sure Ukraine thought others would honor the agreement they had about their territorial integrity.
|
On March 21 2014 06:40 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2014 06:04 heliusx wrote:On March 21 2014 01:34 -Archangel- wrote:On March 20 2014 22:59 heliusx wrote:On March 20 2014 22:25 -Archangel- wrote:On March 20 2014 22:22 sgtnoobkilla wrote:On March 20 2014 21:44 Saumure wrote:
So... how many people did Russia kill in Ukraine up until now? But General Secre-...President Putin and Comrade Lavrov say those "polite people" definitely aren't Russians, so we have to believe them! On March 20 2014 20:25 whiteLotus wrote:
See ya Baltics , hope you havent forgot russian language :\ He would have to really lose all of his marbles if he tried that rubbish with Estonia. I'm pretty sure even Putin wouldn't dare to take a NATO member head-on like that. As for the rest of Ukraine however... Well since Obama said USA does not want a military conflict with Russia, Putin just might try it. Not over the Ukraine but over NATO members its a given. Truthfully I don't believe they will. They and UK also signed an agreement (and Russia) to protect Ukraine and they didn't do shit while Russia did opposite. When push comes to shove, USA interests trump all others and war with Russia is a big NO-NO. America will act if anyone attacks NATO. There's really no room for discussion. Unless you are secretary of defense for USA or the president, there is a lot of room for discussion. Also while USA might help with logistics and military equipment, they would not be required to use full military might. And I am sure Ukraine thought others would honor the agreement they had about their territorial integrity.
Umm, if you don't understand the difference between attacking a NATO country and attacking Ukraine, you probably are disqualified from commenting here. NATO would immediately dissolve if the US didn't defend a member under attack and honor its treaty obligations. America simply won't let that happen. Hell, no president would survive such a fuckup.
|
On March 21 2014 06:48 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2014 06:40 -Archangel- wrote:On March 21 2014 06:04 heliusx wrote:On March 21 2014 01:34 -Archangel- wrote:On March 20 2014 22:59 heliusx wrote:On March 20 2014 22:25 -Archangel- wrote:On March 20 2014 22:22 sgtnoobkilla wrote:On March 20 2014 21:44 Saumure wrote:
So... how many people did Russia kill in Ukraine up until now? But General Secre-...President Putin and Comrade Lavrov say those "polite people" definitely aren't Russians, so we have to believe them! On March 20 2014 20:25 whiteLotus wrote:
See ya Baltics , hope you havent forgot russian language :\ He would have to really lose all of his marbles if he tried that rubbish with Estonia. I'm pretty sure even Putin wouldn't dare to take a NATO member head-on like that. As for the rest of Ukraine however... Well since Obama said USA does not want a military conflict with Russia, Putin just might try it. Not over the Ukraine but over NATO members its a given. Truthfully I don't believe they will. They and UK also signed an agreement (and Russia) to protect Ukraine and they didn't do shit while Russia did opposite. When push comes to shove, USA interests trump all others and war with Russia is a big NO-NO. America will act if anyone attacks NATO. There's really no room for discussion. Unless you are secretary of defense for USA or the president, there is a lot of room for discussion. Also while USA might help with logistics and military equipment, they would not be required to use full military might. And I am sure Ukraine thought others would honor the agreement they had about their territorial integrity. Umm, if you don't understand the difference between attacking a NATO country and attacking Ukraine, you probably are disqualified from commenting here. NATO would immediately dissolve if the US didn't defend a member under attack and honor its treaty obligations. America simply won't let that happen. Hell, no president would survive such a fuckup.
Yes, also the Budapester Memorandum Archangel is referring to isn't an actual treaty. It isn't binding. So it doesn't make much sense to compare it to the NATO, which is a binding military alliance.
|
On March 21 2014 06:40 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2014 06:04 heliusx wrote:On March 21 2014 01:34 -Archangel- wrote:On March 20 2014 22:59 heliusx wrote:On March 20 2014 22:25 -Archangel- wrote:On March 20 2014 22:22 sgtnoobkilla wrote:On March 20 2014 21:44 Saumure wrote:
So... how many people did Russia kill in Ukraine up until now? But General Secre-...President Putin and Comrade Lavrov say those "polite people" definitely aren't Russians, so we have to believe them! On March 20 2014 20:25 whiteLotus wrote:
See ya Baltics , hope you havent forgot russian language :\ He would have to really lose all of his marbles if he tried that rubbish with Estonia. I'm pretty sure even Putin wouldn't dare to take a NATO member head-on like that. As for the rest of Ukraine however... Well since Obama said USA does not want a military conflict with Russia, Putin just might try it. Not over the Ukraine but over NATO members its a given. Truthfully I don't believe they will. They and UK also signed an agreement (and Russia) to protect Ukraine and they didn't do shit while Russia did opposite. When push comes to shove, USA interests trump all others and war with Russia is a big NO-NO. America will act if anyone attacks NATO. There's really no room for discussion. Unless you are secretary of defense for USA or the president, there is a lot of room for discussion. Also while USA might help with logistics and military equipment, they would not be required to use full military might. And I am sure Ukraine thought others would honor the agreement they had about their territorial integrity.
I'm sorry, but i'm with the others here - you don't seem to understand the magnitude of desaster that would follow if the US etc would not help each other if one of the memberstates gets attacked.
I don't think highly of americans (politiciancs, that is, but that goes for most if not all countries anyway), but in this case, it's way too much in their interest to keep NATO alive. NATO would dissolve if they wouldn't help, that was the idea in the first place. No need to stay in a defense-alliance if nobody helps defending.
If you don't understand the difference between a "promise"/political agreement and something like the NATO, or think they're even remotely close, .. Well. Really no point in discussing then.
|
On March 21 2014 06:48 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2014 06:40 -Archangel- wrote:On March 21 2014 06:04 heliusx wrote:On March 21 2014 01:34 -Archangel- wrote:On March 20 2014 22:59 heliusx wrote:On March 20 2014 22:25 -Archangel- wrote:On March 20 2014 22:22 sgtnoobkilla wrote:On March 20 2014 21:44 Saumure wrote:
So... how many people did Russia kill in Ukraine up until now? But General Secre-...President Putin and Comrade Lavrov say those "polite people" definitely aren't Russians, so we have to believe them! On March 20 2014 20:25 whiteLotus wrote:
See ya Baltics , hope you havent forgot russian language :\ He would have to really lose all of his marbles if he tried that rubbish with Estonia. I'm pretty sure even Putin wouldn't dare to take a NATO member head-on like that. As for the rest of Ukraine however... Well since Obama said USA does not want a military conflict with Russia, Putin just might try it. Not over the Ukraine but over NATO members its a given. Truthfully I don't believe they will. They and UK also signed an agreement (and Russia) to protect Ukraine and they didn't do shit while Russia did opposite. When push comes to shove, USA interests trump all others and war with Russia is a big NO-NO. America will act if anyone attacks NATO. There's really no room for discussion. Unless you are secretary of defense for USA or the president, there is a lot of room for discussion. Also while USA might help with logistics and military equipment, they would not be required to use full military might. And I am sure Ukraine thought others would honor the agreement they had about their territorial integrity. Umm, if you don't understand the difference between attacking a NATO country and attacking Ukraine, you probably are disqualified from commenting here. NATO would immediately dissolve if the US didn't defend a member under attack and honor its treaty obligations. America simply won't let that happen. Hell, no president would survive such a fuckup.
Yep. There is absolutely no doubt that the U.S. (and other NATO members, especially the UK and France) would intervene if a NATO member was attacked. The entire credibility of the alliance and of its members would be at stake.
|
On March 21 2014 06:49 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2014 06:48 xDaunt wrote:On March 21 2014 06:40 -Archangel- wrote:On March 21 2014 06:04 heliusx wrote:On March 21 2014 01:34 -Archangel- wrote:On March 20 2014 22:59 heliusx wrote:On March 20 2014 22:25 -Archangel- wrote:On March 20 2014 22:22 sgtnoobkilla wrote:On March 20 2014 21:44 Saumure wrote:
So... how many people did Russia kill in Ukraine up until now? But General Secre-...President Putin and Comrade Lavrov say those "polite people" definitely aren't Russians, so we have to believe them! On March 20 2014 20:25 whiteLotus wrote:
See ya Baltics , hope you havent forgot russian language :\ He would have to really lose all of his marbles if he tried that rubbish with Estonia. I'm pretty sure even Putin wouldn't dare to take a NATO member head-on like that. As for the rest of Ukraine however... Well since Obama said USA does not want a military conflict with Russia, Putin just might try it. Not over the Ukraine but over NATO members its a given. Truthfully I don't believe they will. They and UK also signed an agreement (and Russia) to protect Ukraine and they didn't do shit while Russia did opposite. When push comes to shove, USA interests trump all others and war with Russia is a big NO-NO. America will act if anyone attacks NATO. There's really no room for discussion. Unless you are secretary of defense for USA or the president, there is a lot of room for discussion. Also while USA might help with logistics and military equipment, they would not be required to use full military might. And I am sure Ukraine thought others would honor the agreement they had about their territorial integrity. Umm, if you don't understand the difference between attacking a NATO country and attacking Ukraine, you probably are disqualified from commenting here. NATO would immediately dissolve if the US didn't defend a member under attack and honor its treaty obligations. America simply won't let that happen. Hell, no president would survive such a fuckup. Yes, also the Budapester Memorandum Archangel is referring to isn't an actual treaty. It isn't binding. So it doesn't make much sense to compare it to the NATO, which is a binding military alliance.
Both are word on papers until comes a time to prove it. They didn't with Ukraine, and Obama and EU are showing huge weakness at the moment, that is why at this time I feel there is a good chance NATO would not go all out war if for instance parts of Estonia were attacked (parts with Russian speaking population).
All these talk about you being sure, I am sorry to say, it only talk from all of you. As I said, NATO has not had a chance to prove its words yet, especially vs a country like Russia and by putting whole world at risk for a country like Estonia which was only taken a part of NATO to piss off Russia. If Russia did a full scale invasion on USA, Estonia could not do shit about it. Just like my country that is also part of NATO is basically useless, we were probably only taken to piss of Serbia and Russia by proxy and because our politicians kissed USA ass for last 20 years..
|
On March 21 2014 07:19 -Archangel- wrote:
All these talk about you being sure, I am sorry to say, it only talk from all of you. As I said, NATO has not had a chance to prove its words yet, especially vs a country like Russia and by putting whole world at risk for a country like Estonia which was only taken a part of NATO to piss off Russia.
The 5th NATO article was invoked barely more than a decade ago.
|
On March 21 2014 07:25 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2014 07:19 -Archangel- wrote:
All these talk about you being sure, I am sorry to say, it only talk from all of you. As I said, NATO has not had a chance to prove its words yet, especially vs a country like Russia and by putting whole world at risk for a country like Estonia which was only taken a part of NATO to piss off Russia. The 5th NATO article was invoked barely more than a decade ago.
There is a big jump from NATO bumrushing Afghanistan and NATO making war on a nuclear power with a million man active military.
That said, we would have to act. And yes, it could become a nuclear war, but no-one would want that, and as soon as the shooting started, the diplomats would be furiously looking for a face-saving way out for everyone. It would be unpleasant for the West, but Russia would stand no chance in a stand-up fight, and they know it.
|
|
|
Apparently Putin admitted to sending in troops to Crimea on March the 2nd to Merkel:
|
On March 21 2014 06:40 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2014 06:04 heliusx wrote:On March 21 2014 01:34 -Archangel- wrote:On March 20 2014 22:59 heliusx wrote:On March 20 2014 22:25 -Archangel- wrote:On March 20 2014 22:22 sgtnoobkilla wrote:On March 20 2014 21:44 Saumure wrote:
So... how many people did Russia kill in Ukraine up until now? But General Secre-...President Putin and Comrade Lavrov say those "polite people" definitely aren't Russians, so we have to believe them! On March 20 2014 20:25 whiteLotus wrote:
See ya Baltics , hope you havent forgot russian language :\ He would have to really lose all of his marbles if he tried that rubbish with Estonia. I'm pretty sure even Putin wouldn't dare to take a NATO member head-on like that. As for the rest of Ukraine however... Well since Obama said USA does not want a military conflict with Russia, Putin just might try it. Not over the Ukraine but over NATO members its a given. Truthfully I don't believe they will. They and UK also signed an agreement (and Russia) to protect Ukraine and they didn't do shit while Russia did opposite. When push comes to shove, USA interests trump all others and war with Russia is a big NO-NO. America will act if anyone attacks NATO. There's really no room for discussion. Unless you are secretary of defense for USA or the president, there is a lot of room for discussion. Also while USA might help with logistics and military equipment, they would not be required to use full military might. And I am sure Ukraine thought others would honor the agreement they had about their territorial integrity.
You don't need to be a high ranking official to understand something as simple as how NATO functions.
|
Zurich15365 Posts
The same could be said on the EU sanctions against Russian citizens, including parliamentarians and women, which have been introduced on a shaky legal foundation and betray discriminatory and even misogynist attitude of the EU establishment, bent on meting out extrajudicial punishment to people for speaking up their mind.
What? ....
|
Zurich15365 Posts
There you have it, EU sanctions on Russia are sexist.
|
On March 21 2014 07:50 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +The same could be said on the EU sanctions against Russian citizens, including parliamentarians and women, which have been introduced on a shaky legal foundation and betray discriminatory and even misogynist attitude of the EU establishment, bent on meting out extrajudicial punishment to people for speaking up their mind. What? ....
Greetings from Russian embassies, they barely keep themselves cogent at the MFA level, but their substructures provide such `gems' rather frequently.
Edit:
I made a screenshot, these are generally taken down quite quickly by the main office.
+ Show Spoiler +
|
The tweet is hilarious. Russia is living in a different universe.
On March 21 2014 07:51 zatic wrote:
There you have it, EU sanctions on Russia are sexist.
They may even be so sexist that Russia needs to protect our women
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zUO6pyw.png)
