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On March 02 2014 00:11 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 00:10 johanes wrote:On March 02 2014 00:09 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 02 2014 00:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On March 01 2014 23:59 lolfail9001 wrote:On March 01 2014 23:58 Gorsameth wrote:
And so it is once again shown that EU protection is a fucking joke. We will happily promise our protection but as soon as something bigger then a fly shows up we tuck our tails between our legs and run away.
Sickening to see how spineless our leadership has become. I am fairly certain it was the same 70+ years ago too ^^ What are you talking about? There was no EU 70 years ago. There were European Countries however. EU is just a union of them after all, huh? Yep, here in Czech we remember the powerful Europe protection during Munich Agreement (sarcasm) I was thinking more about Poland, but i see you know what i mean :D
The political climate in the 30s is in no way comparable to todays.
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On March 02 2014 00:27 SilentchiLL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 00:02 zeo wrote:On March 01 2014 23:57 Sent. wrote:On March 01 2014 23:51 zeo wrote:
Local government buildings taken by anti-junta protesters
I don't understand how can you post images with Russian flags on Ukrainian teritory and call all this crap anit-junta movement. Why don't you put some swastikas above Kiev to make it look even better? The people of Ukraine want Russia to protect them. Carrying around Russian flags is no different than carrying EU/US flags at Maidan Does your fixation on the belief that the Russians are always the good guys (atleast that's what I've been reading out of your posts) come from a general dislike of western countries, or from liking Russia in particular? Don't take it the wrong way, it's a genuine question, since you sided with Russia on every point of discussion here for soon to be a hundred pages, starting with this post (you made one or two before this one, but those were mostly about criticizing the american foreign policy in similar cases if I remember correctly): Show nested quote +On January 27 2014 07:07 zeo wrote:On January 27 2014 06:43 DeepElemBlues wrote:
okay well the one side is a bunch of people who put other people in jail for no legitimate reason, have the police attack protesters for no legitimate reason, pass fascist laws trying to scare people who disagree with them into submitting, and are basically a bunch of capos for Don Putin's Ukrainian interests
the other side is a bunch of people who don't want any of the above and want a free trade agreement with the EU
so there are two sides, it's just that one is crap and one isn't. You seem to be forgetting that the last time these 'revolutioners' came to power they brought the country on the brink of economic collapse with their irrational russophobia. Practically the only thing the current president could do to save the country was turn to the only party willing to save Ukraine's ass. Russia. Dav1oN has it right and I've said it before in this thread, the whole landscape needs to change. That won't happen as long as these hard-core nationalists, football hooligans and nazi sympathizers keep brainwashing the people in the streets to destroy their own country. Its so easy to be an internet freedom fighter circlejerker these days on TL.
Whatever a fascist wants, I want the opposite. When it became clear that the Nazi-colaborator wannabe's had taken over maidan the only logical course to take would be anti-maidan. Simple.
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@cSc.Dav1oN: did you really not expect Russia to be involved in this pseudo-conflict? You should know better by being from an eastern country.
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On March 02 2014 00:29 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Very interesting fact about guy who raised russian flag in Kharkov: + Show Spoiler +And a picture below says that he's from Moscow and russian! + Show Spoiler +He's social web-page: http://vk.com/venoruI could not expect that O_O
Yeap it was in Polish news, that they paid and brought people from Russia to be the pro-russian Ukrainian "activists".
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Russian Federation410 Posts
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It's basically Putin's way of saying "no fucking way Russia is gonna have pro-west country in front of our door step".
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Okay, let's say yes, but what about russian guy who raised russian flag? How good is that?
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On March 02 2014 00:32 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 00:27 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 02 2014 00:02 zeo wrote:On March 01 2014 23:57 Sent. wrote:On March 01 2014 23:51 zeo wrote:
Local government buildings taken by anti-junta protesters
I don't understand how can you post images with Russian flags on Ukrainian teritory and call all this crap anit-junta movement. Why don't you put some swastikas above Kiev to make it look even better? The people of Ukraine want Russia to protect them. Carrying around Russian flags is no different than carrying EU/US flags at Maidan Does your fixation on the belief that the Russians are always the good guys (atleast that's what I've been reading out of your posts) come from a general dislike of western countries, or from liking Russia in particular? Don't take it the wrong way, it's a genuine question, since you sided with Russia on every point of discussion here for soon to be a hundred pages, starting with this post (you made one or two before this one, but those were mostly about criticizing the american foreign policy in similar cases if I remember correctly): On January 27 2014 07:07 zeo wrote:On January 27 2014 06:43 DeepElemBlues wrote:
okay well the one side is a bunch of people who put other people in jail for no legitimate reason, have the police attack protesters for no legitimate reason, pass fascist laws trying to scare people who disagree with them into submitting, and are basically a bunch of capos for Don Putin's Ukrainian interests
the other side is a bunch of people who don't want any of the above and want a free trade agreement with the EU
so there are two sides, it's just that one is crap and one isn't. You seem to be forgetting that the last time these 'revolutioners' came to power they brought the country on the brink of economic collapse with their irrational russophobia. Practically the only thing the current president could do to save the country was turn to the only party willing to save Ukraine's ass. Russia. Dav1oN has it right and I've said it before in this thread, the whole landscape needs to change. That won't happen as long as these hard-core nationalists, football hooligans and nazi sympathizers keep brainwashing the people in the streets to destroy their own country. Its so easy to be an internet freedom fighter circlejerker these days on TL. Whatever a fascist wants, I want the opposite. When it became clear that the Nazi-colaborator wannabe's had taken over maidan the only logical course to take would be anti-maidan. Simple.
That's silly, you were anti-maidan before there was any talks of fascists. At least be honest to yourself.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On March 02 2014 00:40 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Okay, let's say yes, but what about russian guy who raised russian flag? How good is that?
Bad enough ^^
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Picture of former Ukrainian police getting Russian passport.
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Russian Federation410 Posts
On March 02 2014 00:40 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Okay, let's say yes, but what about russian guy who raised russian flag? How good is that?
TBH I don't really care, military vehicles are kind of my hobby. Those fake tanks really surprised me.
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On March 02 2014 00:43 Go0g3n wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 00:40 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On March 02 2014 00:36 Go0g3n wrote:On March 02 2014 00:33 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:![[image loading]](http://cs7002.vk.me/c540103/v540103526/529e0/jiWmuOr2Xb8.jpg) It has began This picture is fake, taken from a "simulation": http://socioecohistory.wordpress.com/Russian tanks look differently. Okay, let's say yes, but what about russian guy who raised russian flag? How good is that? TBH I don't really care, military vehicles are kind of my hobby. Those fake tanks really surprised me.
So it comes to u only when we're talking about fake or real armors? Than u'd better visit any tank-forum and leave this thread with ur opinion.
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On March 02 2014 00:22 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 00:17 Twoflowers wrote:On March 02 2014 00:09 Gorsameth wrote:On March 02 2014 00:03 hypercube wrote:On March 01 2014 23:58 Gorsameth wrote:
And so it is once again shown that EU protection is a fucking joke. We will happily promise our protection but as soon as something bigger then a fly shows up we tuck our tails between our legs and run away.
Sickening to see how spineless our leadership has become. EU protection means something if it's backed up by US power, which in practice it usually is. TBH, I don't think Russia can effectively go through with this, they will have to back down at some point. No point in sending troops to Ukraine and risk an armed conflict when there are less direct means to achieve the same goals. Except that seems to be what is happening at this very moment. On March 02 2014 00:03 Twoflowers wrote:On March 01 2014 23:58 Gorsameth wrote:
And so it is once again shown that EU protection is a fucking joke. We will happily promise our protection but as soon as something bigger then a fly shows up we tuck our tails between our legs and run away.
Sickening to see how spineless our leadership has become. What EU protection? We have no treaties with the Ukraine that would justify a military intervention. We also have no forces in Ukraine, while russia has a fucking naval base near the biggest crimean city. Economic threats at russia would probably not be enough to stop an invasion. So what exactly shoulod teh EU do? The Budapest Memorandum is why atleast the US and UK have a duty atm. And what we should do? How about following Russians example when they moved there army to Ukraine's borders and showing them that we will respond if they invade instead of flinging harsh words. This is a game of chicken by Putin and we pulled out before it even started. http://www.ezilon.com/maps/images/europe/political-map-of-Ukraine.gif <-- to which border do you want the uk move forces? Shit is going down a bit too fast to organize a movement of UK troops to romania, poland etc. and they would have to go through turkish territory for acces to the black sea. Also these movements would have been interpreted as agression towards russia. And Russia moving its army to Ukrains border isn't a sign of aggression? Is it a sign when there flying military helicopters across the border? Is it a sign when they approve "war"? Would the troops need to be there in an hour? no ofc not but when you have your people mobilizing for the move it shows Russia your serious We're seeing the effects of doing next to nothing right now.
Internet-tough-guy act is not how real world works.
Real situation is that Russia has big amount of leverage on the situation. They can threaten to cripple Ukarainian economy even without the use of force. They have in some areas popular suppport. They have a military base on Ukrainian territory. They can hit Europe economically also. They can also block Western diplomacy on issues more important to the West than Ukraine is.
US has some leverage due to being US. US can hurt Russia economically somewhat and actual threat of force would put Putin in a bad position. But US capability to posture is limited due to last 13 years.
EU has some leverage as they can hurt Putin back economically. Militarily most likely not as Putin would know it is a bluff.
Neither of those parties wants war with one another. Putin can always ignore economical threats as his position in Russia is not weak. So he knows that if he limits himself to small gains he will risk nothing as nobody will do squat, because it is in nobody's interest to do anything.
Of course there is another possibility, very unlikely one, that Putin sees that Ukraine is lost and might be admitted to NATO and decides that it is inacceptable to him and goes for full-on aggression. But that would be such a risk and he never showed any inclination to risk too much.
Though considering that for Russia limiting NATO influence was always a priority, not restoring USSR territorially as you claim, who knows.
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On March 02 2014 00:43 Go0g3n wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 00:40 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On March 02 2014 00:36 Go0g3n wrote:On March 02 2014 00:33 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:It has began This picture is fake, taken from a "simulation": http://socioecohistory.wordpress.com/Russian tanks look differently. Okay, let's say yes, but what about russian guy who raised russian flag? How good is that? TBH I don't really care, military vehicles are kind of my hobby. Those fake tanks really surprised me.
You should drop your hobby if you can't distinguish between tanks and selfpropelled guns. Not that it would matter in the first place anyway.
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On March 02 2014 00:41 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 00:32 zeo wrote:On March 02 2014 00:27 SilentchiLL wrote:On March 02 2014 00:02 zeo wrote:On March 01 2014 23:57 Sent. wrote:On March 01 2014 23:51 zeo wrote:
Local government buildings taken by anti-junta protesters
I don't understand how can you post images with Russian flags on Ukrainian teritory and call all this crap anit-junta movement. Why don't you put some swastikas above Kiev to make it look even better? The people of Ukraine want Russia to protect them. Carrying around Russian flags is no different than carrying EU/US flags at Maidan Does your fixation on the belief that the Russians are always the good guys (atleast that's what I've been reading out of your posts) come from a general dislike of western countries, or from liking Russia in particular? Don't take it the wrong way, it's a genuine question, since you sided with Russia on every point of discussion here for soon to be a hundred pages, starting with this post (you made one or two before this one, but those were mostly about criticizing the american foreign policy in similar cases if I remember correctly): On January 27 2014 07:07 zeo wrote:On January 27 2014 06:43 DeepElemBlues wrote:
okay well the one side is a bunch of people who put other people in jail for no legitimate reason, have the police attack protesters for no legitimate reason, pass fascist laws trying to scare people who disagree with them into submitting, and are basically a bunch of capos for Don Putin's Ukrainian interests
the other side is a bunch of people who don't want any of the above and want a free trade agreement with the EU
so there are two sides, it's just that one is crap and one isn't. You seem to be forgetting that the last time these 'revolutioners' came to power they brought the country on the brink of economic collapse with their irrational russophobia. Practically the only thing the current president could do to save the country was turn to the only party willing to save Ukraine's ass. Russia. Dav1oN has it right and I've said it before in this thread, the whole landscape needs to change. That won't happen as long as these hard-core nationalists, football hooligans and nazi sympathizers keep brainwashing the people in the streets to destroy their own country. Its so easy to be an internet freedom fighter circlejerker these days on TL. Whatever a fascist wants, I want the opposite. When it became clear that the Nazi-colaborator wannabe's had taken over maidan the only logical course to take would be anti-maidan. Simple. That's silly, you were anti-maidan before there was any talks of fascists. At least be honest to yourself.
Not true. I was against violent protests from the very start. I became anti-maidan after the radicalization of the protests (after McCain). Please do not spread misinformation.
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They aren't even tanks. They are howitzers.
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On March 02 2014 00:45 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2014 00:22 Gorsameth wrote:On March 02 2014 00:17 Twoflowers wrote:On March 02 2014 00:09 Gorsameth wrote:On March 02 2014 00:03 hypercube wrote:On March 01 2014 23:58 Gorsameth wrote:
And so it is once again shown that EU protection is a fucking joke. We will happily promise our protection but as soon as something bigger then a fly shows up we tuck our tails between our legs and run away.
Sickening to see how spineless our leadership has become. EU protection means something if it's backed up by US power, which in practice it usually is. TBH, I don't think Russia can effectively go through with this, they will have to back down at some point. No point in sending troops to Ukraine and risk an armed conflict when there are less direct means to achieve the same goals. Except that seems to be what is happening at this very moment. On March 02 2014 00:03 Twoflowers wrote:On March 01 2014 23:58 Gorsameth wrote:
And so it is once again shown that EU protection is a fucking joke. We will happily promise our protection but as soon as something bigger then a fly shows up we tuck our tails between our legs and run away.
Sickening to see how spineless our leadership has become. What EU protection? We have no treaties with the Ukraine that would justify a military intervention. We also have no forces in Ukraine, while russia has a fucking naval base near the biggest crimean city. Economic threats at russia would probably not be enough to stop an invasion. So what exactly shoulod teh EU do? The Budapest Memorandum is why atleast the US and UK have a duty atm. And what we should do? How about following Russians example when they moved there army to Ukraine's borders and showing them that we will respond if they invade instead of flinging harsh words. This is a game of chicken by Putin and we pulled out before it even started. http://www.ezilon.com/maps/images/europe/political-map-of-Ukraine.gif <-- to which border do you want the uk move forces? Shit is going down a bit too fast to organize a movement of UK troops to romania, poland etc. and they would have to go through turkish territory for acces to the black sea. Also these movements would have been interpreted as agression towards russia. And Russia moving its army to Ukrains border isn't a sign of aggression? Is it a sign when there flying military helicopters across the border? Is it a sign when they approve "war"? Would the troops need to be there in an hour? no ofc not but when you have your people mobilizing for the move it shows Russia your serious We're seeing the effects of doing next to nothing right now. Internet-tough-guy act is not how real world works. Real situation is that Russia has big amount of leverage on the situation. They can threaten to cripple Ukarainian economy even without the use of force. They have in some areas popular suppport. They have a military base on Ukrainian territory. They can hit Europe economically also. They can also block Western diplomacy on issues more important to the West than Ukraine is. US has some leverage due to being US. US can hurt Russia economically somewhat and actual threat of force would put Putin in a bad position. But US capability to posture is limited due to last 13 years. EU has some leverage as they can hurt Putin back economically. Militarily most likely not as Putin would know it is a bluff. Neither of those parties wants war with one another. Putin can always ignore economical threats as his position in Russia is not weak. So he knows that if he limits himself to small gains he will risk nothing as nobody will do squat, because it is in nobody's interest to do anything. Of course there is another possibility, very unlikely one, that Putin sees that Ukraine is lost and might be admitted to NATO and decides that it is inacceptable to him and goes for full-on aggression. But that would be such a risk and he never showed any inclination to risk too much. Though considering that for Russia limiting NATO influence was always a priority, not restoring USSR territorially as you claim, who knows.
Tell that to the people of Ukraine im sure there interested in the political situation of why there being abandoned.
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Russia has gone full cold war. That parliament session is such a sham that I don't even know what to say about it.
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How Ukrainian soldiers are dealing with occupying Russian soldiers:
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EPT![[image loading]](http://cs413522.vk.me/v413522459/7b29/XLUCg23pUa8.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://cs413522.vk.me/v413522459/7b22/L5_pttgFycI.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/3/1/1393688001078/ba4e8d77-22e3-4806-b6c6-f2c60fb9cda2-620x372.jpeg?width=620&height=-&quality=95)
![[image loading]](http://i.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/3/1/1393688219513/9dab2c7b-2e16-44e6-b9c2-e573e85f0546-620x372.jpeg?width=620&height=-&quality=95)
