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Edit: Have removed all irrelevant drama, will post later a more relevant and clear post, which will better reflect the information of this serious issue.
Email section from Amanda to David Ting (cc:Gus, Bcc:djoaniel)
Amanda writes:
"Well apparently there's a stipulation in the law here that says I can't be jailed for collectibles"
full email
+ Show Spoiler +Well apparently there's a stipulation in the law here that says I can't be jailed for collectibles but I can be held accountable for interest since it is a debt.(Which I breathe a sigh of relief)
I work in a travel agency and I must turn in the money owed to the airlines during the due date of the bank settlement plan. Basically if I don't turn in the full amount by the week of the 21st the agency I work for will be "closed" or will be blocked from issuing tickets from any airline to any destination until the amount is settled. Basically office operations will be stopped. Originally the amount was to have been settled by tomorrow (11 Nov) but I am trying to buy time and like atleast guarantee the office that amount can be settled.
I am well you can say somewhat the guarantor of the tickets. I asked permission to issue tickets and release in advance without receiving full payment yet. (this is not our usual practice unless its been a long time corporate account thats been dealing with us)
In Php it's Php 515,878 less the $ 7000 I approximately will still have a remainder to be paid which has to be settled by the due date.
The amount in the bills are non negotiable. (Sadly enough)
Please let me know what to do next and what will else be needed. As soon as the money has been transfered, I will scan the withdrawal slip and receipt that will prove that I have given the money to the accounting section of our office.
Thank you very much!
Statement from dox
My original blog (http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=283600 - November 8th, 2011) was based on the information circulating the event, including the following quotes:
==========
Quote from TheGunRun:
Amanda post paid for the tickets with the agency, if Gus doens't pay her the agency can run after her and put her in jail.
==========
Quote from Dox:
This is a message from Amanda who is possibly facing jail if this is not resolved imminently:
"I issued a total of php 715,000 worth of tickets. 200,000 has been paid, so the outstanding debt is close to php 516,000. Told gunrun already and like im really hoping people in the community can help as being jailed is a possibility for me. I am connected to a travel agency that is why."
==========
I can't claim to know whether or not Amanda was actually at risk of facing jail. I have no reason to disbelieve it either. All I knew is what was reported. I wasn't at the event. I had nothing to do with the event. I was just another spectator watching as the events unfolded online.
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Damn son.
Why did this only come out now?
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what... Why even bring this up again. I mean I guess the community was wrong. But it was so long ago that no one cares really.
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A year and a half later? This seems oddly suspicious. One would think this would have become a controversial, debatable issue if all of this actually came out at the time.
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That is some pretty good evidence.
Still, why is this coming out now ?
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This is pointless, let the past rest. Even though the community is wrong, that was close to 1 and a half years ago and isn't even remotely relevant anymore. There is no need for this here.
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Because PPSL2 is coming up.
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Wasn't this in 2011? How come it's coming out now? Why the late timing?
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I'm not buying a single thing as of now. The money was mismanaged for sure as some of the players did not have any hotel rooms and had to live in the staff's house. I was there during the event and WHATEVER people say everything was poorly managed. Plus there's the issue of sickness being promised ram and salary which he never got.
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better late than never
unfortunately for Gus Ledesma, his rep has been tarnished and he'll never want to/have the chance to host another e-sports event again.
Always interesting to see the underhanded/(unprofessional?) activities by everyone involved though!
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it has taken me a few months to get all the information verified and compiled.
Gus wasn't able to come forward as it meant people would not get paid.
after he trusted me with the email accounts (that he froze)
i uncovered what Amanda did.
Gus had to sell his computer to put food on the table for his family, he lost his job and still too this day gets spit on if he enters a computer lab.
you can say i guess it is relevant to him.
The community needs to know the truth.
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Dox was aware of stream cheating, but went ahead with the results. (This is the only information that is solely based on CD's verbal testimony and not a screenshot)
who stream cheated?
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Rossi, accdg to this post.
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streamcheating part is the only thing that would be "nice to know" anything else is not relevant for me as esport guys are for the most part not trustworthy so no news for me there
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On April 15 2013 21:12 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
Please allow me to share with you the truth, which many people have tried to hide, deny and hold ransom, for self preservation, promotion and profit. What you do with it, is up to you.
This isn't a Marvel film, stop being so bloody melodramatic. I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve by digging all this up and the only new villain seems to be Amanda. Dox moved the date of an event back so the best Aussie could compete and was probably in the dark on the details (like flights) through having to communicate with the organisational black-hole that was Ledesma. Best not to forget that Gus is still largely responsible for the massive cock-up that was the actual event. The 'truth' sub-headings also make this look far from objective.
How the fuck is one person seeing 'tarossi' in a stream chat box evidence enough to lynch both rossi and dox? This is more of a hatchet job than the original drama.
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Wow... Talk about two sides to every coin.
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Sure, we can let old events stay in the past, or we can dig them back up and cover serious allegations of fraud, theft and clear the name of someone who has been severely damaged -- both personally and professionally because of the actions of others.
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Nah, why the fuck would we want to do that?
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I still can't believe how "Gus" handled things and acted 1½ years ago. Good grief that was painful.
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On April 15 2013 21:43 k!llua wrote:
Sure, we can let old events stay in the past, or we can dig them back up and cover serious allegations of fraud, theft and clear the name of someone who has been severely damaged -- both personally and professionally because of the actions of others.
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Nah, why the fuck would we want to do that?
thank-you
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How does any of this make Gus the silent hero of anything?
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So I read through the streamcheating evidence and I hope that you remove it asap, someone being in the stream chat box is not sufficient evidence to mark them as a streamcheater. I am sure most of the players in that qualifier were watching the stream and would be in the stream chat box during their own games.. As far as I remember, Rossi did not play suspect at all!
Also, streaming qualifiers without delay= retarded
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On April 15 2013 21:27 Zaphid wrote:
That is some pretty good evidence.
Still, why is this coming out now ?
Did you actually read it? How was this good evidence?
I'd say this was a lot of speculation at best and a lot of story spinning from both sides. And now we're accusing Amanda with about as much evidence as we had when we accused Gus? It seems like this story is trying to spin this as a negative on Amanda and the travel agency, but it's still Gus' fault for choosing the travel agency in the first place. He should have inquired about their fees and extra charges far in advance, and gotten it in contract.
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Ugh.. nope. Still has a lot of villain activities outside of PPSL.
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Sounds like a lot of he said she said, going to wait for Dox, YYJ and Thegunrun to make their statements first. They seemed to have actual evidence while all I see here is a lot of name dropping.
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So why did gus claim that he would explain and give his version of the events, but just ended up disapearing? On top of that this post is horribly written, which makes it really hard to read.
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The biggest problem with this post is that it's written from such a bias standpoint. If your information was so damning and the evidence so clear cut then you wouldn't need such grandiose hyperbole to get your point across.
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What the hell just because he was in the stream chat doesn't mean he was stream cheating at all I have been in stream chats when i have played and had the stream paused etc. It doesn't mean shit.
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Poll: Does being merely incompetent rather than malicious make Gus a hero?No (117) 90% Yes (13) 10% 130 total votes Your vote: Does being merely incompetent rather than malicious make Gus a hero? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
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The major problem I see here is that you're so absolutely sure of yourself, that you start from the position that everything Gus says is true and that everyone else is part of this huge conspiracy to steal money and ruin a guy's life.
You're completely ignoring all compelling evidence put forward from many other community members, and painting a completely biased picture from one side of the equation. No effort whatsoever has been given to balance here.
It's so evident through all your chat logs that you weren't discussing the issues with the people at hand, you were persecuting them.
EDIT: ROFL @ the poll!
EDIT2: I'd also point out that accusing Rossi of stream cheating is just as bad, if not worse than half the shit you're defending ledesma from here.
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ob·jec·tive
/əbˈjektiv/
Adjective
(of a person or their judgment) Not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.
Please allow me to share with you the truth, which many people have tried to hide, deny and hold ransom, for self preservation, promotion and profit. What you do with it, is up to you.
Gus Ledesma Silent Hero of PPSL/IPL4 Qualifiers
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United Kingdom2950 Posts
I don't even know how to process this.
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It's really frustrating that this information wasn't brought up earlier. It's also a shitload of information to try and digest for an event that is fuzzy at best in most peoples minds at this point. I'm by no means saying you shouldn't have posted it, but it definitely would've made much more sense to do it earlier.
I will say what everyone else has tho that condemning someone to stream cheating based on a name in a chat box is ludicrous and should be removed entirely from the story unless something else on that matter comes up.
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Horribly presented and some pretty dubious assertions.
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He is a hero because it would mean another notch tacked onto IPL's event count.
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Maybe I am too dumb to see it, but how much was she payed total and how much did she overcharge? Could you maybe list all the tickets and invoices and show us the disparity?
And one more thing. How much of this is just how SEA does business?
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The Rossi accusation makes no sense. You're willing to stake the reputation of a player with 34 placings and ~$4k in winnings who has represented Australia against their name being in a chat box in a screenshot. Not even the most jaded e-sports fan would call that evidence. Either you wrote this to pad your post or you hold some sort of grudge/issue with him or his team personally. At least that's what I read from this.
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Two Works: [strike]Airline[/strike] Travel Agency
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It has taught me much about how disgusting a bored group of people can be when fed with some random cause. I've marked it as the 1st esports crusade in my calendar.
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Honestly, I do not really care. Neither gave money to Gus, nor to Amanda. As a European, never had anything to do with them, and probably never will. 
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You guys forgot about HoNslaught lol
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On April 15 2013 22:09 greatZERG wrote:
The Rossi accusation makes no sense. You're willing to stake the reputation of a player with 34 placings and ~$4k in winnings who has represented Australia against their name being in a chat box in a screenshot. Not even the most jaded e-sports fan would call that evidence. Either you wrote this to pad your post or you hold some sort of grudge/issue with him or his team personally. At least that's what I read from this.
She has withdrawn from team Nv, and been accusing dox of all sorts of things for days. A particularly choice quote was that Nv is an "evil organisation".
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On April 15 2013 22:21 deth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 22:09 greatZERG wrote:
The Rossi accusation makes no sense. You're willing to stake the reputation of a player with 34 placings and ~$4k in winnings who has represented Australia against their name being in a chat box in a screenshot. Not even the most jaded e-sports fan would call that evidence. Either you wrote this to pad your post or you hold some sort of grudge/issue with him or his team personally. At least that's what I read from this.
She has withdrawn from team Nv, and been accusing dox of all sorts of things for days. A particularly choice quote was that Nv is an "evil organisation".
I won't say anything then and wait for the statements we know are coming. Thanks for the info mate.
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On April 15 2013 22:25 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
We left because of this
Why leave it ambiguous at we
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Well CheekyDuck good luck on your crusade.
3 pieces of advice to start with:
1) learn to structure your post properly and actually do the math in a comprehensive way so that people can try to follow your points.
2) show the key evidence properly and split up all background stuff you might have in an appendix (frankly I couldn't find anything which proves Amanda ran a scam in your post).
3) If you truly wanted to bring light to this mess you should have posted it at the very latest a year ago. Almost no one remembers the details nowadays.
I didn't consider Gus guilty until he let months pass without trying to truly justify his actions. Maybe he let himself be scammed by Amanda (frankly your post didn't convince me at all), but frankly he should have defended himself back then (and actually worked properly with records and invoices to protect himself).
As I said, good luck, but personally this is a waste of time.
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On April 15 2013 22:26 greatZERG wrote:Why leave it ambiguous at we
My sister and I
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On April 15 2013 22:25 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
We left because of this
Feel free to leave E-Sports. Completely.
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On April 15 2013 22:27 Tula wrote:
Well CheekyDuck good luck on your crusade.
3 pieces of advice to start with:
1) learn to structure your post properly and actually do the math in a comprehensive way so that people can try to follow your points.
2) show the key evidence properly and split up all background stuff you might have in an appendix (frankly I couldn't find anything which proves Amanda ran a scam in your post).
3) If you truly wanted to bring light to this mess you should have posted it at the very latest a year ago. Almost no one remembers the details nowadays.
I didn't consider Gus guilty until he let months pass without trying to truly justify his actions. Maybe he let himself be scammed by Amanda (frankly your post didn't convince me at all), but frankly he should have defended himself back then (and actually worked properly with records and invoices to protect himself).
As I said, good luck, but personally this is a waste of time.
try again, with a calculator.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Needs more evidence. Not just assertions. Not gonna convince many people like this. It'll probably just create a shitstorm again =/
My opinion: none. No evidence, no opinion.
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So sad to see this happening in the SEA scene, especially Australians.
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How can you seriously be so dumb (And biased) with a post like this?
If gus did nothing wrong he wouldn't have disappeared. You are just on a pathetic crusade to try and shit on Dox/Nv for no reason. Stop embarrassing yourself.
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You seriously need to TL;DR this.
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On April 15 2013 22:33 schmutttt wrote:
How can you seriously be so dumb (And biased) with a post like this?
If gus did nothing wrong he wouldn't have disappeared. You are just on a pathetic crusade to try and shit on Dox/Nv for no reason. Stop embarrassing yourself.
So in you're logic, it makes someone guilty when they choose to stay silent? How can you be so ignorant and think just because someone doesn't choose to confront an issue, that makes them guilty? It may make them cowardly or weak, but guilty? No, you fool. There is obviously a bigger picture and unless you have viewed the entire evidence which has been provided, I think you're speaking too prematurely.
User was banned for this post.
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I'm still waiting for Gus to talk with Slasher on Lo3, after that I will consider what has happened here.
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On April 15 2013 22:43 Jiddra wrote:
I'm still waiting for Gus to talk with Slasher on Lo3, after that I will consider what has happened here.
It's too late for him to start talking. Fuck him.
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On April 15 2013 22:42 TerranBear wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 22:33 schmutttt wrote:
How can you seriously be so dumb (And biased) with a post like this?
If gus did nothing wrong he wouldn't have disappeared. You are just on a pathetic crusade to try and shit on Dox/Nv for no reason. Stop embarrassing yourself. So in you're logic, it makes someone guilty when they choose to stay silent? How can you be so ignorant and think just because someone doesn't choose to confront an issue, that makes them guilty? It may make them cowardly or weak, but guilty? No, you fool. There is obviously a bigger picture and unless you have viewed the entire evidence which has been provided, I think you're speaking too prematurely.
Nice try, cheekyduck.
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This is a farce.
And while many, if not most of these things are true, in no way is Gus a "victim" in this scenario.
He manipulated, lied and withheld vital information necessary to throw such an event as the PPSL.
I was there from the point of conceptualization until two days before the event, when I was notified by our precious "Silent Hero" just how grossly over budget we were, and how he didn't know what to do.
The budget that we agreed on, (by we, I mean Gus, I and another person, who lost a shitload of money btw,) was that we would pay and take care of everything for Tastosis, and the winner of our first qualifier, who was Sen. That was about just as much as we could afford with our budget, and we were all in agreement that this was the extent of our investment into flying players/casters in.
Then about a week before the event, I was informed that we were overbudget, and I ask to find out what happened, little did I find out that Gus offered to fly all the players in, and take care of their lodgings as well. Which obviously to me and our third partner (who was in the States at that time, studying) didn't work well, since the said partner already paid the downpayment for the location and was supposed to get reimbursed once the funds started to come from IGN. Sad to say, he never got paid, and is still in the red in terms of that disaster of an event. By a lot.
This is when I found out that PPSL offered to fly ALL the players in, and not just the ones we discussed. Obviously, this was a breach of trust and our agreement, but what could be done at that point? He already promised many other players that their flights and lodgings will be taken care of.
So, many of the Koreans came. MC, MKP, and many many others, because I mean, who wouldn't want a FREE trip, to win money???
Oh and this is not to mention that Gus, being the jovial host that he is, and unbelievably in the spotlight of the community among many of the best players as well as Tastosis, would take them out on the town the night or two before the event, paying for everything with PPSL funds nonetheless... Yep, shady indeed.
So, back to the story, two days before the event, he called me again to say that we were in the red, by a lot. Even more than he told me the week before. He wanted to pass off the load to me, (who at this point have been mostly working on logistics and conceptualization as well as content for the event) because he was overburdened with the situation he got himself and the PPSL into. This was when I decided to leave. Fuck that, I thought, no way was I going to be a part of this spectacle that was sure to fail.
And I was right...
The day of the event itself, the man himself showed up to the location just past midday, without even a word to the rest of the people who were still working on the spot. No head's up, nothing. And proceeded to appear on stream, which I'm sure many of you remember, and being the megalomaniac that he is, didn't take responsibility for a single thing, and spoke to the 10,000 people watching as if they were stupid. Again, thanks Gus.
There's so much more behind this shit, but remembering it just makes me tired and pissed. So I'm done.
Yea, if you want to go on a witch hunt, hunt down Amanda, Dox, and whoever, but don't think for a second that Gus was a victim in this. The only victims here were our other partner, me, and all the staff that was necessary to throw the event. None of which got paid, btw. One more time, thanks Gus!
Also, as a sidenote, let me say that IPL and David Ting were nothing but super nice and helpful to us, leading up to the event. The second day before the event (the day I quit), I tried to call David to inform him of the situation, but I couldn't get through, since the only time I spoke to him was through a conference call with Gus.
They didn't need to stick by us through the horrendous event, but they said they would, and they did. That was admirable and something that pissed me off even more was seeing how the whole situation was treated, it wasn't anything close to an IPL event.
I guess, the only silver lining in the whole thing was that MKP started winning tournaments after he won PPSL. That still brings a smile to my face.
As to why this is all being brought up now, I guess that OP just has some vendetta against a few people, but making it seem as if Gus was a Hero in this thing is fucking ridiculous.
Don't make me laugh.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Having seen the evidence these are my thoughts.
1) While there are some question marks surrounding the YYJ incident I don't feel that there is enough to draw any conclusions about what really happened. Moreover, this is really a secondary issue to other issues.
2) The evidence suggests that IGN aren't really to blame in this incident, and can hardly be blamed for them trying to wash their hands of it. That said, the evidence that pertains to them and this incident does begin to paint a picture of how this event failed (specifically, the planning of the event with a budget in mind and then the budget being revised down due to sponsors pulling out/ign reducing their commitment)
3) The real issue here is the questionable actions surrounding Amanda and strange invoices. While it's unclear exactly how much has not been accounted for, it is clear that it is a nontrivial amount.
4) The evidence suggests that the PPSL's failure is not solely the fault of Gus (although he took the fall at the time for it). The evidence does not, however, absolve him of part of the reason the event failed. With that said, one of the core failings of this venture was the inexperience of him and his team when running an event of this scale.
EDIT: updated the thread title to something less sensationalist.
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So um, I guess the immediate question is have TL admins independently verified this as the OP claims?
sigh plexa and your pre-emption timing.
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On April 15 2013 22:42 TerranBear wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 22:33 schmutttt wrote:
How can you seriously be so dumb (And biased) with a post like this?
If gus did nothing wrong he wouldn't have disappeared. You are just on a pathetic crusade to try and shit on Dox/Nv for no reason. Stop embarrassing yourself. So in you're logic, it makes someone guilty when they choose to stay silent? How can you be so ignorant and think just because someone doesn't choose to confront an issue, that makes them guilty? It may make them cowardly or weak, but guilty? No, you fool. There is obviously a bigger picture and unless you have viewed the entire evidence which has been provided, I think you're speaking too prematurely. User was banned for this post.
guys this is the most funny thing ever user with 1 post made by a guy to defend himself ) like nobody will ever suspect it !
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On April 15 2013 21:43 k!llua wrote:
Sure, we can let old events stay in the past, or we can dig them back up and cover serious allegations of fraud, theft and clear the name of someone who has been severely damaged -- both personally and professionally because of the actions of others.
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Nah, why the fuck would we want to do that?
Yep. If any of this is true, then it's pretty obvious why it has to be said, considering all the witch hunting that went on, not to mention that actual money (from the donations thing) was involved. All the people saying, "we don't need this now, it happened two years ago"...... really guys? Really?
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Oh, and don't get me started on HONslaught.
What a fucking piece of shit...
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On April 15 2013 22:47 deth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 22:42 TerranBear wrote:On April 15 2013 22:33 schmutttt wrote:
How can you seriously be so dumb (And biased) with a post like this?
If gus did nothing wrong he wouldn't have disappeared. You are just on a pathetic crusade to try and shit on Dox/Nv for no reason. Stop embarrassing yourself. So in you're logic, it makes someone guilty when they choose to stay silent? How can you be so ignorant and think just because someone doesn't choose to confront an issue, that makes them guilty? It may make them cowardly or weak, but guilty? No, you fool. There is obviously a bigger picture and unless you have viewed the entire evidence which has been provided, I think you're speaking too prematurely. Nice try, cheekyduck.
you know there is 3 of us.
duck,
bear,
bee
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Germany25649 Posts
On April 15 2013 22:59 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 22:47 deth wrote:On April 15 2013 22:42 TerranBear wrote:On April 15 2013 22:33 schmutttt wrote:
How can you seriously be so dumb (And biased) with a post like this?
If gus did nothing wrong he wouldn't have disappeared. You are just on a pathetic crusade to try and shit on Dox/Nv for no reason. Stop embarrassing yourself. So in you're logic, it makes someone guilty when they choose to stay silent? How can you be so ignorant and think just because someone doesn't choose to confront an issue, that makes them guilty? It may make them cowardly or weak, but guilty? No, you fool. There is obviously a bigger picture and unless you have viewed the entire evidence which has been provided, I think you're speaking too prematurely. Nice try, cheekyduck. you know there is 3 of us. duck, bear, bee
The account shared your ip, just saying.
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On April 15 2013 22:59 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 22:47 deth wrote:On April 15 2013 22:42 TerranBear wrote:On April 15 2013 22:33 schmutttt wrote:
How can you seriously be so dumb (And biased) with a post like this?
If gus did nothing wrong he wouldn't have disappeared. You are just on a pathetic crusade to try and shit on Dox/Nv for no reason. Stop embarrassing yourself. So in you're logic, it makes someone guilty when they choose to stay silent? How can you be so ignorant and think just because someone doesn't choose to confront an issue, that makes them guilty? It may make them cowardly or weak, but guilty? No, you fool. There is obviously a bigger picture and unless you have viewed the entire evidence which has been provided, I think you're speaking too prematurely. Nice try, cheekyduck. you know there is 3 of us. duck, bear, bee
For us uneducated people, duck = you, bee = your sister, bear = ?
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On April 15 2013 22:47 deth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 22:42 TerranBear wrote:On April 15 2013 22:33 schmutttt wrote:
How can you seriously be so dumb (And biased) with a post like this?
If gus did nothing wrong he wouldn't have disappeared. You are just on a pathetic crusade to try and shit on Dox/Nv for no reason. Stop embarrassing yourself. So in you're logic, it makes someone guilty when they choose to stay silent? How can you be so ignorant and think just because someone doesn't choose to confront an issue, that makes them guilty? It may make them cowardly or weak, but guilty? No, you fool. There is obviously a bigger picture and unless you have viewed the entire evidence which has been provided, I think you're speaking too prematurely. Nice try, cheekyduck.
It wasn't Cheekyduck, very different writing style. However, the opinion over here is unanimous.
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On April 15 2013 23:00 KadaverBB wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 22:59 -CheekyDuck- wrote:On April 15 2013 22:47 deth wrote:On April 15 2013 22:42 TerranBear wrote:On April 15 2013 22:33 schmutttt wrote:
How can you seriously be so dumb (And biased) with a post like this?
If gus did nothing wrong he wouldn't have disappeared. You are just on a pathetic crusade to try and shit on Dox/Nv for no reason. Stop embarrassing yourself. So in you're logic, it makes someone guilty when they choose to stay silent? How can you be so ignorant and think just because someone doesn't choose to confront an issue, that makes them guilty? It may make them cowardly or weak, but guilty? No, you fool. There is obviously a bigger picture and unless you have viewed the entire evidence which has been provided, I think you're speaking too prematurely. Nice try, cheekyduck. you know there is 3 of us. duck, bear, bee The account shared your ip, just saying.
thats cool, but if you can confirm my IP now is from a different house. i don't think i can teleport that fast.
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Interesting. Very interesting
A bit of a blast from the past here, from one of the more notorious times of SC2 history.
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On April 15 2013 23:01 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 22:59 -CheekyDuck- wrote:On April 15 2013 22:47 deth wrote:On April 15 2013 22:42 TerranBear wrote:On April 15 2013 22:33 schmutttt wrote:
How can you seriously be so dumb (And biased) with a post like this?
If gus did nothing wrong he wouldn't have disappeared. You are just on a pathetic crusade to try and shit on Dox/Nv for no reason. Stop embarrassing yourself. So in you're logic, it makes someone guilty when they choose to stay silent? How can you be so ignorant and think just because someone doesn't choose to confront an issue, that makes them guilty? It may make them cowardly or weak, but guilty? No, you fool. There is obviously a bigger picture and unless you have viewed the entire evidence which has been provided, I think you're speaking too prematurely. Nice try, cheekyduck. you know there is 3 of us. duck, bear, bee For us uneducated people, duck = you, bee = your sister, bear = ?
we are the 3 sister that play SC
i play toss
bee zerg
bear terran
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To whom within the eSports community it may concern,
Don't believe Cheekyduck.
She's just another girl attention whoring it up. After effectively spitting on the face of one of the most hard-working guys in eSports (Dox) who basically set her up in the scene (regrettably). She then has the hide to make these audacious posts on TL. I would post so many expletives if I could because it's just that appauling.
She's a scam girl who's ignorant, greedy, heinous and ungrateful. I've literally seen the guy poor hours upon hours of his own time and money helping grow the SC2 scene from the ground up.
I come from a different eSports scene down under (CS) but I can smell a rat from a mile away, and it's undoubtedly Cheekyduck.
A complete VOID of clear, distinctive evidence and sensationalist bullshit. What a damn surprise?
Yours sincerely,
A disgruntled Australian eSports enthusiast.
P.S. If you think I have a 'Vendetta' against someone whom I've never met, please, grow a brain. My judgement is based on evidence and knowledge of how the Aussie scene functions over a lengthy period of time - not trashtalk and childish sensationalism.
P.P.S I find it equally hilarious that she's b-lining it to deliver TeamLiquid the latest goss instead of simply providing her so called 'evidence' to any branch of law enforcement.
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Surprised that anyone still remembers this whole thing..
Am I the only one who doesn't know really what to say or feel about this thread? I'm a bit curious, was something scammed/stolen from the OP or why dig this whole horse skeleton up and beat it some more? I think majority of people don't actually care about this new information at all.
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On April 15 2013 23:06 cozzE wrote:
Seriously, don't believe Cheekyduck, she's just another girl attention whoring it up after effectively spitting in the face of a hard-working guy (Dox) who basically set her up in the eSports scene (regrettably). She then has the hide to make these audacious posts on TL. I would post so many expletives if I could because its just that f'ing appauling.
She's a scam girl who's ignorant, greedy, heinous and ungrateful. I've literally seen the guy poor hours upon hours of his own time and money helping grow the SC2 scene from the ground up.
I come from a different eSports scene down under (CS) but I can smell a rat from a mile away, and it's undoubtedly Cheekyduck.
Regardless of your personal vendettas against Cheekyduck, you don't need to believe her words. You can see for yourself the evidence that is provided for you.
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I'm not understanding the point of this post, how does letting fraud slide for two years make you a silent hero?
How does it make you a better person at all?
If the supposed hero 'Amanda' really did make off with a bunch of fan/organiser money then why the fuck didn't you do something to try and retrieve it while the event was still relevant?
And if this made you leave the scene, why are you returning with this info long after anything can be done about it? wtf? I mean, IPL doesn't even exist anymore as an organisation =/
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Just look at the Poll .. lol :D
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Btw, mod, thanks for changing the Title topic, I had to stifle my vomit every time I read it.
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On April 15 2013 23:08 namste wrote:
Surprised that anyone still remembers this whole thing..
Am I the only one who doesn't know really what to say or feel about this thread? I'm a bit curious, was something scammed/stolen from the OP or why dig this whole horse skeleton up and beat it some more? I think majority of people don't actually care about this new information at all.
Haha I had clean forgotten about it until I saw this thread.
I have my doubts about how long this thread will survive because there seems to be a very high proportion of bashing flying around. The information would probably disappear if the thread was closed, and it'd be kinda sad for Cheekyduck since it looks like it took some time to collate all that information, but I'm really not sure how many people really care about this at this point in time.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On April 15 2013 23:10 Jehct wrote:
I'm not understanding the point of this post, how does letting fraud slide for two years make you a silent hero?
How does it make you a better person at all?
If the supposed hero 'Amanda' really did make off with a bunch of fan/organiser money then why the fuck didn't you do something to try and retrieve it while the event was still relevant?
And if this made you leave the scene, why are you returning with this info long after anything can be done about it? wtf? I mean, IPL doesn't even exist anymore as an organisation =/
Agreed, not sure why this has been brought up other than as a personal Crusade.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 15 2013 23:16 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 23:10 Jehct wrote:
I'm not understanding the point of this post, how does letting fraud slide for two years make you a silent hero?
How does it make you a better person at all?
If the supposed hero 'Amanda' really did make off with a bunch of fan/organiser money then why the fuck didn't you do something to try and retrieve it while the event was still relevant?
And if this made you leave the scene, why are you returning with this info long after anything can be done about it? wtf? I mean, IPL doesn't even exist anymore as an organisation =/ Agreed, not sure why this has been brought up other than as a personal Crusade.
The reason the information has come out so late is because only recently was Gus willing to discuss the incident/share the evidence (and the time it's taken for cheeky to sift through the information). As I said in my post, the real issue here is the fact that large sums of money were lost and while this is very late in coming out, it is better than this information is known than locked away.
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On April 15 2013 23:16 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 23:10 Jehct wrote:
I'm not understanding the point of this post, how does letting fraud slide for two years make you a silent hero?
How does it make you a better person at all?
If the supposed hero 'Amanda' really did make off with a bunch of fan/organiser money then why the fuck didn't you do something to try and retrieve it while the event was still relevant?
And if this made you leave the scene, why are you returning with this info long after anything can be done about it? wtf? I mean, IPL doesn't even exist anymore as an organisation =/ Agreed, not sure why this has been brought up other than as a personal Crusade.
It's really sad that people seemly don't care. People are still being impacted by this 'situation' and Gus himself has had his name ruined by this. As stated by CheekyDuck, he still gets spit on when he enters a computer store. This may mean very little to you. However if it were me or someone I cared about, I'd want others to know. The truth always comes out.
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On April 15 2013 23:09 SarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 23:06 cozzE wrote:
Seriously, don't believe Cheekyduck, she's just another girl attention whoring it up after effectively spitting in the face of a hard-working guy (Dox) who basically set her up in the eSports scene (regrettably). She then has the hide to make these audacious posts on TL. I would post so many expletives if I could because its just that f'ing appauling.
She's a scam girl who's ignorant, greedy, heinous and ungrateful. I've literally seen the guy poor hours upon hours of his own time and money helping grow the SC2 scene from the ground up.
I come from a different eSports scene down under (CS) but I can smell a rat from a mile away, and it's undoubtedly Cheekyduck. Regardless of your personal vendettas against Cheekyduck, you don't need to believe her words. You can see for yourself the evidence that is provided for you.
I'm not sure what you think a vendetta is but cozzeE's interaction(one) can hardly be called a vendetta.
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On April 15 2013 23:21 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 23:16 Targe wrote:On April 15 2013 23:10 Jehct wrote:
I'm not understanding the point of this post, how does letting fraud slide for two years make you a silent hero?
How does it make you a better person at all?
If the supposed hero 'Amanda' really did make off with a bunch of fan/organiser money then why the fuck didn't you do something to try and retrieve it while the event was still relevant?
And if this made you leave the scene, why are you returning with this info long after anything can be done about it? wtf? I mean, IPL doesn't even exist anymore as an organisation =/ Agreed, not sure why this has been brought up other than as a personal Crusade. The reason the information has come out so late is because only recently was Gus willing to discuss the incident/share the evidence (and the time it's taken for cheeky to sift through the information). As I said in my post, the real issue here is the fact that large sums of money were lost and while this is very late in coming out, it is better than this information is known than locked away.
Shouldn't this issue and evidence be presented to the police then, if a fraud has occured it should be handled by the police.
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On April 15 2013 23:23 SarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 23:16 Targe wrote:On April 15 2013 23:10 Jehct wrote:
I'm not understanding the point of this post, how does letting fraud slide for two years make you a silent hero?
How does it make you a better person at all?
If the supposed hero 'Amanda' really did make off with a bunch of fan/organiser money then why the fuck didn't you do something to try and retrieve it while the event was still relevant?
And if this made you leave the scene, why are you returning with this info long after anything can be done about it? wtf? I mean, IPL doesn't even exist anymore as an organisation =/ Agreed, not sure why this has been brought up other than as a personal Crusade. It's really sad that people seemly don't care. People are still being impacted by this 'situation' and Gus himself has had his name ruined by this. As stated by CheekyDuck, he still gets spit on when he enters a computer store. This may mean very little to you. However if it were me or someone I cared about, I'd want others to know. The truth always comes out.
Unfortunately I don't think this is a case of cut and dry guilt / innocence. It's good to know that Amanda is going to get her name dragged through the mud a bit - but in the end everyone dropped the ball on a couple of issues that let things get to the place that they ultimately ended up.
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Title is much clearer now at least.
I still don't care too much about dat drama, unfortunately :/
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On April 15 2013 23:23 SarBear wrote:
It's really sad that people seemly don't care. People are still being impacted by this 'situation' and Gus himself has had his name ruined by this. As stated by CheekyDuck, he still gets spit on when he enters a computer store. This may mean very little to you. However if it were me or someone I cared about, I'd want others to know. The truth always comes out.
As teamliquid guy said 2 minutes ago, this new evidence is bringing up details that question a couple new people, and if it is factual and fraud has been committed you should do something by the law about it
But this is in no way clearing Gus' name in anyway shape or form.. I highly doubt he get's physically spat on in a random computer store, I don't think people are willing to be arrested to demean some "starcraft 2 semi-known person"
So I think you still trying to play the violin card with Gus' name being tarnished and trying to say wrongfully, is stubborn and stupid. He manipulated, lied and withheld vital information necessary to throw such an event as the PPSL, still accountable for a lot of the "calculating evidence" brought up.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 15 2013 23:27 namste wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 23:21 Plexa wrote:On April 15 2013 23:16 Targe wrote:On April 15 2013 23:10 Jehct wrote:
I'm not understanding the point of this post, how does letting fraud slide for two years make you a silent hero?
How does it make you a better person at all?
If the supposed hero 'Amanda' really did make off with a bunch of fan/organiser money then why the fuck didn't you do something to try and retrieve it while the event was still relevant?
And if this made you leave the scene, why are you returning with this info long after anything can be done about it? wtf? I mean, IPL doesn't even exist anymore as an organisation =/ Agreed, not sure why this has been brought up other than as a personal Crusade. The reason the information has come out so late is because only recently was Gus willing to discuss the incident/share the evidence (and the time it's taken for cheeky to sift through the information). As I said in my post, the real issue here is the fact that large sums of money were lost and while this is very late in coming out, it is better than this information is known than locked away. Shouldn't this issue and evidence be presented to the police then, if a fraud has occured it should be handled by the police.
My only involvement in this has been to verify the legitimacy of the evidence presented here. I would hope that the evidence which pertains to the fraud is passed onto the police. With that said, after the massive community witch hunt do you not think that this is something which should also be brought to the community?
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On April 15 2013 22:28 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 22:27 Tula wrote:
Well CheekyDuck good luck on your crusade.
3 pieces of advice to start with:
1) learn to structure your post properly and actually do the math in a comprehensive way so that people can try to follow your points.
2) show the key evidence properly and split up all background stuff you might have in an appendix (frankly I couldn't find anything which proves Amanda ran a scam in your post).
3) If you truly wanted to bring light to this mess you should have posted it at the very latest a year ago. Almost no one remembers the details nowadays.
I didn't consider Gus guilty until he let months pass without trying to truly justify his actions. Maybe he let himself be scammed by Amanda (frankly your post didn't convince me at all), but frankly he should have defended himself back then (and actually worked properly with records and invoices to protect himself).
As I said, good luck, but personally this is a waste of time. try again, with a calculator.
You seem to have spent a lot of time on the issue. A lot of research, going through mails, invoices etc etc.
You are IN the material. Everyone reading your post isnt. Going through that and actually understanding random screenshots, out of order comments/mails etc would take everyone a great deal of time.
Time the large majority isnt willing to sacrifice.
Some questions:
+ Show Spoiler +1."the original first down payment of 215 000php + 15 000php payments which were paid by Gus BEFORE the event." Are you sure it's 215 + 15? Because that doesnt really makes sense. Amanda talks about 215$ less (715k - 215k = 501k). The scan you showed shows the 15k. You didnt show a 200 or 215k scan. So maybe it's 200 + 15 and you just made a mistake? If not please explain. 2."Her invoice quotes from the start keep increasing" I only checked the Tastosis part, so if the error is somewhere else please say where. + Show Spoiler +Airfare: $ 539 Taxes: $ 189 IPP : $ 3 ======== $ 731 It's identical to the picture: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oyLNnMB.png) Also the yellow numbers add up to the total of 715. So what were her initial invoice quotes? And sources for those please. If you refer to the PHP 657,603 vs 715k then keep in mind that cArn & Fruitdealer werent part of the initial calculation (also Sen was more expensive initially). I didnt calculate this any further so there might still be an error on her part here. 3."the total money she received that i know of was $17,539.83" Source? Maybe I missed it. 4."The 42.85 is the exchange rate she quoted for the Philippine Peso to the US Dollar at that time (which is very low)" "Even with her fraudulent exchange rate" Looks decent or am I missing something? (2011-10-27 has 42.85 listed) 5."The full Korean fare was $450 but she quoted $731, Australian ticket $400 - $900 she quoted $ 1402 based on other peoples tickets purchased for this event that were reimbursed" Cant find sources / proof for $450 & $400-900. Should add those unless I missed them as well
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Too much information for mere common folk like me. Im gonna need someone to explain this in a bit more clear, shorter and non-biased way before I can make any judgement.
Actually, I should probably withhold any judgement. This shouldve probably been handled internally in the first place anyways.
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On April 15 2013 23:37 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 23:27 namste wrote:On April 15 2013 23:21 Plexa wrote:On April 15 2013 23:16 Targe wrote:On April 15 2013 23:10 Jehct wrote:
I'm not understanding the point of this post, how does letting fraud slide for two years make you a silent hero?
How does it make you a better person at all?
If the supposed hero 'Amanda' really did make off with a bunch of fan/organiser money then why the fuck didn't you do something to try and retrieve it while the event was still relevant?
And if this made you leave the scene, why are you returning with this info long after anything can be done about it? wtf? I mean, IPL doesn't even exist anymore as an organisation =/ Agreed, not sure why this has been brought up other than as a personal Crusade. The reason the information has come out so late is because only recently was Gus willing to discuss the incident/share the evidence (and the time it's taken for cheeky to sift through the information). As I said in my post, the real issue here is the fact that large sums of money were lost and while this is very late in coming out, it is better than this information is known than locked away. Shouldn't this issue and evidence be presented to the police then, if a fraud has occured it should be handled by the police. My only involvement in this has been to verify the legitimacy of the evidence presented here. I would hope that the evidence which pertains to the fraud is passed onto the police. With that said, after the massive community witch hunt do you not think that this is something which should also be brought to the community?
Oh don't worry about that. We know exactly where Gus is and where he works.
But right now we just want to focus on legitimizing esports here in the Philippines first. Steps were taken to ensure nothing like this would happen here in the Philippines ever again. Once is enough.
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On April 15 2013 23:41 Arkanthiel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 23:37 Plexa wrote:On April 15 2013 23:27 namste wrote:On April 15 2013 23:21 Plexa wrote:On April 15 2013 23:16 Targe wrote:On April 15 2013 23:10 Jehct wrote:
I'm not understanding the point of this post, how does letting fraud slide for two years make you a silent hero?
How does it make you a better person at all?
If the supposed hero 'Amanda' really did make off with a bunch of fan/organiser money then why the fuck didn't you do something to try and retrieve it while the event was still relevant?
And if this made you leave the scene, why are you returning with this info long after anything can be done about it? wtf? I mean, IPL doesn't even exist anymore as an organisation =/ Agreed, not sure why this has been brought up other than as a personal Crusade. The reason the information has come out so late is because only recently was Gus willing to discuss the incident/share the evidence (and the time it's taken for cheeky to sift through the information). As I said in my post, the real issue here is the fact that large sums of money were lost and while this is very late in coming out, it is better than this information is known than locked away. Shouldn't this issue and evidence be presented to the police then, if a fraud has occured it should be handled by the police. My only involvement in this has been to verify the legitimacy of the evidence presented here. I would hope that the evidence which pertains to the fraud is passed onto the police. With that said, after the massive community witch hunt do you not think that this is something which should also be brought to the community? Oh don't worry about that. We know exactly where Gus is and where he works. But right now we just want to focus on legitimizing esports here in the Philippines first. Steps were taken to ensure nothing like this would happen here in the Philippines ever again. Once is enough.
Are you guys ganna let Gus enter a pc cafe without him being spat on now?
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On April 15 2013 23:21 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 23:16 Targe wrote:On April 15 2013 23:10 Jehct wrote:
I'm not understanding the point of this post, how does letting fraud slide for two years make you a silent hero?
How does it make you a better person at all?
If the supposed hero 'Amanda' really did make off with a bunch of fan/organiser money then why the fuck didn't you do something to try and retrieve it while the event was still relevant?
And if this made you leave the scene, why are you returning with this info long after anything can be done about it? wtf? I mean, IPL doesn't even exist anymore as an organisation =/ Agreed, not sure why this has been brought up other than as a personal Crusade. The reason the information has come out so late is because only recently was Gus willing to discuss the incident/share the evidence (and the time it's taken for cheeky to sift through the information). As I said in my post, the real issue here is the fact that large sums of money were lost and while this is very late in coming out, it is better than this information is known than locked away.
Ah, ok I get it.
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Well, disregarding facts of whether Gus should have flown and paid for accomodation of participants outside Manila, I think cheekyduck misunderstands a few things.
I think the 1k is in php, not usd. She was pertaining to local flights from Cebu to Manila and normally, they to charge on top of the flight payments. 1k php is not outside reasonable here in the Philippines. If you "book it yourself online" the service fee will drop to around 200 to 300php, if its with Cebu Pacific (that's for online), 500php via phone if I am not mistaken. This is approximate mind you. You can always check the breakdown of their ticket price before actually paying for it with the credit card.
Again, the additional payment for hotels, that's for incidentals right? Because I highly doubt anyone in their right mind would think he would need to have a guarantee deposit of 1000usd in a hotel in Manila even if he stayed long?
I also don't get what math she is pertaining to? Is it just the conversion rate of php to 1 usd? Would have been nice if she managed to see the "math" to create an excel spreadsheet and actually display a table in the spoiler for it to make sense.
I am not on the side of anyone, be it Gus or Amanda. But the jail time, we from the Phils already stated in the forums back then that there is no jail time in our country for loans. It would basically be a civil case, as it is a debt. It is not estafa/graft.
At any rate, I don't think there really is much in the sense of enlightening facts that have come up (yet) even with this post. I also think the stream cheating accusation is kind of a stretch. Why even put it? Dox didn't even mention it at any point, nor did anyone else part of the Australia qualifiers with whom that fact would matter most.
My two cents.
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On April 15 2013 23:43 Superpower wrote:
Are you guys ganna let Gus enter a pc cafe without him being spat on now?
Well... since you guys asked so nicely....
+ Show Spoiler +
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Actually I'm going to close this. People are raising valid concerns/criticisms of how the evidence is presented and how it supports the claims made. If -Cheekyduck- were around she could respond to those and hopefully clear up the OP. But as she hasn't replied for a while, is not online on TL and isn't replying to me elsewhere these criticisms won't be responded to for some time (Australia timezones ftw).
Cheeky please talk to me later.
Edit: Tentatively reopened.
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Since this issue has been raised again for some reason, don't mind me while I leave here some of the stuff that I wasn't able to post a year and a half ago (because I was stupid).
Introduction
First of all, my name is Sonny Go and I was the content manager for Team AZK when the IPL 4 Pacific Qualifiers were being organized. I basically did most of the copywriting for the event, posting them on Team Liquid and SC2SEA, as well as Liquipedia. I was also updating the social media accounts and Liquipedia entry as the results came in. I also helped edit and rewrite the apology letter that was posted after the event.
The reason why I only released this now is simple -- I am an idiot. I was hurt by what happened during the aftermath and couldn't get myself to strike the iron while it was still hot. Perhaps the advantage to this though is that right now, the information I have may be assessed with clearer minds.
This post was not made to directly refute most of CheekyDuck's allegations, including those against Amanda. In fact, I don't know much about the financial stuff and had nothing to do with it. I'm just taking this opportunity to finally put out the screenshots that I had been sitting on for so long. After this has been posted, I've done my part.
Why Now?
As early as March 25 of this year, we heard a rumor about Gus wanting to start something again and had brought in those close to him during the whole PPSL thing (seems like they're good friends). I didn't think that the gossip was true, but I had prepared to compile this stuff since then. Lo and behold, something was posted, and I took the chance.
Derek "Dox" Reball, the organizer of the Australian qualifiers for the event and now the manager of Team Nv (Moonglade's team), recently posted a blog entry regarding his thoughts on people who like to jump the shark in eSports, and had mentioned about "a large number of ambitious eSports enthusiasts who popped up in 2011... decide they want to emulate the success of Evil Geniuses or Major League Gaming".
This must have triggered CheekyDuck to want to interview him live on Twitch to address his "lies". Seems that nothing really came out of it, so she started this thread. I got the link through Amanda, who doesn't want to say anything since she's still quite traumatized from what happened in 2011.
+ Show Spoiler +
My Conversation with Dox
For those who watched the CSN interview with Dox after PPSL, perhaps you remember the middle portion of that video wherein he apologized to someone working for Gus at that time who was "blunt and aggressive".
That guy was me, and that apology came after I posted screenshots of my Skype conversations with Dox in his blog entry about his dealings with the PPSL, where he also mentioned me as Gus' accomplice. I was just doing my job.
+ Show Spoiler +
But here's the kicker. At the same time when that conversation was taking place, I was talking to Gus in Google about the Liquipedia article for the event. I was trying to talk some sense into him on being diplomatic, while he was angry about some Aussie "stealing our thunder". In fact, this was the reason why I then contacted Dox through Skype.
+ Show Spoiler +
I was supposed to write about the event on Liquipedia, but someone else already did on Dox's behalf. Gus must have taken this as a slight and I had to talk some sense to him about it.
Lucky that I was able to take those screenshots while our Gmail accounts were still active, because they did get deleted days after the event.
+ Show Spoiler +
Dealing with an angry Gus in the early morning through chat about that Liquipedia entry was quite surreal. I understand why he'd be so angry, but that should never be a part of any business decision, no matter what.
During the Event
At the day of the event, Gus hit me up to talk about the players from Team Cube (from Cebu) who weren't attending due to not being able to book flights. Since it's already the day of the event, that wouldn't really be possible. When he gave up on the idea, he left me instructions then said that he was going back to his house because he was lacking sleep.
+ Show Spoiler +
Unfortunately, this ill-advised act of macromanaging meant that he was absent when the Internet connection we had on-site, courtesy of Globe Telecom, was not giving us the bandwidth we needed. This started a chain reaction that derailed the whole event.
When we were having the connection troubles, I was trying to reach Gus through my cellphone, but he wasn't answering. By around 2PM, he finally picked up and I told him about what's going on. It took some time before he got back, most likely because he lived in Paranaque, which is kind of far from the venue.
+ Show Spoiler +
Soon enough, the computers were crashing and unable to play StarCraft II. It turns out, from what I heard, that each computer had two sets of video drivers in them, both for Nvidia and ATi. Since we were using Nvidia cards, courtesy of sponsorship, we had to uninstall the other drivers. But when this was figured out, it was already quite late and a good number of the players were sent to an Internet cafe, which was also in Paranaque (maybe because Gus has connections there), to play out the rest of the matches. That's the only information I have regarding that.
Matchfixing Allegations
This is a special section since I have something to say about the whole matchfixing thing. The truth is that there was no matchfixing; it was actually my fault. This is how it happened.
On the second day of the event (November 8, 2011), I woke up at around 7AM and checked my Facebook for updates. I noticed that there was a bracket posted containing the names of the players who had qualified from group play. I immediately thought that they must have already drawn the names for it, so I thought that in order to save me some time, I'll just enter that in Liquipedia. Once I finished, I got prepared and left for the event.
When I arrived at the venue, Eins Rojas (one of the crewmembers) asked me about the bracket on Liquipedia I posted and urged me to delete them as soon as possible because it wasn't the real one at all. What I saw on Facebook must've been a sample.
The brackets were later drawn by a Korean, most likely one of the managers (maybe from StarTale, since it wasn't oGsTheWind). The AZK players being spread out in the brackets and the "original" having them against each other is merely a coincidence.
There was no matchfixing; it was just me being an overdiligent idiot.
When the Event Finished
After Tastosis left for the airport, MarineKing was awarded with the first place prize, and most of the live audience had left, we were called backstage to be informed by Gus that due to sponsors pulling out, we weren't going to be paid.
During the afterevent "party", I asked Gus about how much he was going to pay me. He told me that I was to be given PhP5,000 ($120) for my efforts, and I was actually fine with that since I'm just happy to be paid. In fact, I even told him that if he were to give me a Razer keyboard, I'd consider that as payment. I'm really easy to please.
Of course, I never got that at all once the financial fallout reared its ugly head. There was the whole Amanda and Clive situation with the threat of imprisonment, which was quite frightening. Amanda was and still is a quivering mess because of it and will never provide a rebuttal to CheekyDuck's allegations because she's just that traumatized.
This is not a call for sympathy; in fact, it just states that we're no real threat to them at this point. They want nothing to do about the whole thing, and I'm acting on my own volition.
Conclusion
I gain absolutely nothing from posting this at all (actually, it's a waste of my time). However, upon being given the opportunity to put up all of the stuff that has been sitting in my Dropbox account for over 17 months has been too good to pass up.
This attempt to salvage Gus' reputation is valiant, but quite misguided. He had his faults, and the sponsors and other crewmembers had theirs as well. The bottom line is that in terms of the event itself, we blew it.
The financial fallout though is out of the hands of the crewmembers since most of us never had anything to do with the money. I can't give any concrete judgement on that since I haven't been educated about the financial situation during that time.
Maybe the whole "silent hero" thing is built upon him having brought to us Filipino StarCraft enthusiasts a chance to meet some of our heroes in the flesh and watch them do what they do best. Alright then, I guess we can give props to him for that somehow.
But him being a hero? I don't think so. It would have been better if the IGN Pro League never had to go through that mishap at all, even if we never have had that experience if that was the case.
We could have been spared from all that drama. No one needed that at all.
My Thoughts on Gus
First of all, I had no personal loyalties to Gus. I got on the boat when I answered his call for a writer in the StarcraftPH Facebook group. I'm a freelance writer by trade, so I joined in for the experience and the potential pay. I had started playing StarCraft II on January 2011 and perhaps it was just me being in the right place at the right time.
I do have to say that Gus had a talent for getting people to join his cause. He did have some tricks in his sleeve to keep them hooked as well, like name-dropping and other persuasion tactics. Those tactics aren't necessarily bad per se, since they're employed in sales and marketing, and they did work for the purpose of getting the whole PPSL thing going back then.
However, what does stick in everyone's craw is how he managed the people under his wing and how he makes decisions based on emotional impulse. Perhaps he was getting overwhelmed by everything going on around him, but that's exactly what he wasn't supposed to do in that scenario in the first place. As far as allegations go, most of the ones involving Gus' hot head are pretty much true -- he does let his temper and stress get the best of him when it comes to important decisions.
As far as CheekyDuck's testimony of Gus having to sell his computer and scraping by to feed his family goes, we don't know anything about that, and we can't really be expected to believe it without any concrete evidence. That attempt to grab our sympathy, as well as calling Gus a "silent hero", makes me scratch my head. Anyone actually falling for this?
In the end, I harbor no lingering ill will towards Mr. Gus Ledesma. I wish him luck to his future endeavors. However, it must be said that when it comes to any eSports-related activities, no one should make it easy for him at all.
Gus, please just go do something else.
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EDIT: Grammatical corrections.
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why are people in this very community calling this information pointless? Just because some time has passed does not mean it's not important to expose the truth behind something as not to repeat the reactions from the community again.. as well as any of the issues that brought this snake alive in the first place.
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Great, it's reopened, I can finally post the analysis I took about 1 hours to compile/write.
Can we talk about the numbers for a second? How much exactly is Cheekyduck suspecting that Amanda made? $5,847.90? Because from what I understand off Cheekyduck's evidence, the only amount I see as a major problem is the money lost due to IGN paying an extra $500 or so.
Difference in quotations between email Amanda sent and invoice she sent
If you do the math between the email Amanda sent (quoting PHP 657,603) and the Invoice (quoting PHP 715,878), you'll notice that the figure was increased because:
- two extra tickets were purchased from Korea (totalling an extra $62,647). Counting the number of people who flew in from Korea, the email only lists 16 while the invoice lists 18 people (the names of the people who flew changed a bit... ie Carn wasn't in the email, but was in the invoice, but he replaced someone else).
- she added PHP466 for Rachel's ticket, as the price quoted in the email was likely just an approximation
- Sen's ticket price actually dropped from PHP26,353 to 21,511.
Reconciling these: 657,603 + 62,647 + 466 - 26,353 + 21,511 = 715,874 (close enough to the price she quoted of 715,878).
So in that sense, she didn't change anything in terms of price between the email and invoice.
Claims that Amanda has been doubly paid in excess of US$5,000
I don't get this one either. So now we have PHP715,878, of which PHP215,000 has (even Amanda admits been paid by Gus). This makes for 500,878PHP, which is equivalent to $11,689.00, of which IGN paid her $12,172.27. Cheekyduck claims that Amanda was paid around $5367 on top of this, but it's shown that the $5367 rounds out to PHP230,000 (of which $215,000 was admittedly used for the plane tickets). Also, it's worth noting that the receipts posted don't even add up to PHP200,000.
This means that the only excess Amanda paid was the $500 that IGN paid and the PHP15,000 difference (230-215k) or around $350. So in all, I can only see $850 as the excess which is unaccounted for (if we forget about the exchange rate of 42.85 being "dodgy", which at the moment remains unclear and even then, it doesn't prove that Amanda intentionally cheated anyone). It's certainly a far cry from the $5.8k that Cheekyduck seems to be suggesting she cheated everyone out of. Also, to reiterate, the receipts do not prove that Gus paid PHP230,000. We know that Amanda received at least PHP215,000, based on her own admission, so the $350 USD here is still in contention.
Fudging of figures
Cheekyduck also claims that Amanda fudged numbers and constantly hounded her in the FB convo over the fact that 1644 x 42.85 =/= 70466 (it's actually 70445, which is 20 Pesos or $0.46 off). Well, 1, that was the only mathematical mistake in the invoice and 2, even if you multiplied it by 20-25 people, that would only be $10-11.50 of surplus.
Unless, Cheekyduck missed her major points, the mathematics in her evidences just don't substantiate her claims that Amanda was actively cheating and this has been blown way out of proportion.
Other matters
Frankly I don't understand why the Rossi streamcheating issue was brought up, or why Dox/YoonYJ were brought into this.
The issue of fraud as it pertains to finance lies in the people who handled the money. IGN, Gus and Amanda. Dox and YYJ should have been left out of it.
Ultimately, while this post helps put Gus in a better light, it makes very stark accusations which seem to be unfounded at the moment and should be edited out of the post. (or make it more clear where the unaccounted numbers come from)
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So I've been trying to go through this mess and make sense of it, and I still don't seem to be able to work out what's going on.
The email
Amanda sends out an email for the original quotes on the 3rd November 2011.
The invoicing
A table is provided (i assume you made this) that aligns with the email:
The total listed expenses are shown as 715,878 PHP ($16,706 USD).
The balance is listed as 515,878 PHP ($12,039 USD).
This would indicate a total of 200,000 PHP ($4,667 USD) has been paid for.
The receipts
Receipts from the 4th November 2011 are supplied listed as received from Team AZK (this is Gus isn't it?)
- receipts for Rachel & Ross's tickets total 130,542 PHP ($3,046 USD).
- 3 receipts for the Tower Inn total 48,400 PHP ($1,129 USD)
- deposit slip from Metrobank was 15,000 PHP ($350 USD)
Total = 193,942 PHP ($4526 USD)
So a total of approx. $4,600 is paid by Gus to Amanda.
Amanda's claim
On the 15th November 2011 Amanda is on record as to claiming she still hasn't received 515,878 PHP ($12,000 USD). So good so far, no lies told, no money missing.
The receipt from IGN
A receipt is shown dated 22nd November 2011, for a total of $12,172 from IGN. I assume this is the $7,000 supplied by IGN & $5,000 raised by the community.
Adding all that up
So if we add up all the receipts you've provided, we arrive at a number extremely close to the original invoice of 715,878 PHP ($16,706 USD). It's not exact, but it's so close you wouldn't bat an eyelid.
What am i missing?
I'm confused how Amanda pocketed any money out of this. If she did, you provided no evidence of it, unless I totally missed something (in which case I'll redo my numbers).
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On April 15 2013 23:44 17Sphynx17 wrote:
Well, disregarding facts of whether Gus should have flown and paid for accomodation of participants outside Manila, I think cheekyduck misunderstands a few things.
I think the 1k is in php, not usd. She was pertaining to local flights from Cebu to Manila and normally, they to charge on top of the flight payments. 1k php is not outside reasonable here in the Philippines. If you "book it yourself online" the service fee will drop to around 200 to 300php, if its with Cebu Pacific (that's for online), 500php via phone if I am not mistaken. This is approximate mind you. You can always check the breakdown of their ticket price before actually paying for it with the credit card.
Again, the additional payment for hotels, that's for incidentals right? Because I highly doubt anyone in their right mind would think he would need to have a guarantee deposit of 1000usd in a hotel in Manila even if he stayed long?
I also don't get what math she is pertaining to? Is it just the conversion rate of php to 1 usd? Would have been nice if she managed to see the "math" to create an excel spreadsheet and actually display a table in the spoiler for it to make sense.
I am not on the side of anyone, be it Gus or Amanda. But the jail time, we from the Phils already stated in the forums back then that there is no jail time in our country for loans. It would basically be a civil case, as it is a debt. It is not estafa/graft.
At any rate, I don't think there really is much in the sense of enlightening facts that have come up (yet) even with this post. I also think the stream cheating accusation is kind of a stretch. Why even put it? Dox didn't even mention it at any point, nor did anyone else part of the Australia qualifiers with whom that fact would matter most.
My two cents.
not all information is here, as i posted what i thought was most important.
but to answer your question:
PHP or USD?
I know it is USD as she quoted me USD personally to book my flights to Borrcay (some island can't spell sorry)
My father and sister questioned her while we waited for Gus to show at the hotel.
We asked for clairty and said PHP! thats nothing, book us some flights, we even offered to take her with us because she seemed stressed.
and she defiantly said USD and that was too expensive for us, the reason we were told was something about domestic plane from domestic planes and she has to pay an excess as there are a few transfers.
But then she suggested we book directly with the agency as she had a friend there, so we went to the agency, i don't speak the language so i don't know what was said, but after they quoted us we just left. we booked online for a fraction of the price.
with her invoices, you can't be lazy and just add up the final USD.
Rachel is the only fare information i have received. apx and extra 1630php tax was charged, but as she was not in the country for more than a year, this tax is what you call a "hidden expense"
after this eticket, no etickets display any fare information which is odd. and reading documents and documents of IATA and flight information, my understanding illegal.
the change in number is from amanda's perspective.
she claimes she recieved 200 000 the at most 215 000 from gus.
but the receipts reflect she recieved 230 000php from Gus
i found it odd after the first down payment, she required more down payments to make more bookings and then to remove the fare information, why would someone do that?
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Rossi is NOT a stream cheater. even if his name was in the stream chat and even if it was him. the stream would have been on pause, so he could watch other games when he was finnished playing.
such a prestigious, famous, and talented player such as rossi would have the whole community backing him up to defend him against these allegations im sure.
for those of you who don't know who Rossi is, he is 1 of the 4 top Australian terrans in the scene right now, and has been for quite a long time, here is his bio:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Rossi
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Wow, that post by SonnyGo aka AvoiderDragon brought back a lot of memories.
Lol at what a fucking douchebag Gus is...
BTW, he revoked everyone's TeamAZK email address (not just Sonny's), even the one linked to my KR region back then.
Yea, that's how much of a douche he is. As in literally changed passwords of all our email addresses, so we couldn't log back in.
I got over it after a while, but that's not to say I wasn't pissed the fuck off when I couldn't access my shit.
Remembering this, I now have no qualms about the fall out that befell him.
He was an asshole and probably still is one now.
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Wow, this is like Scum-ception. Gus is scum, Amanda is scum, everyone is scum!
E-Sports is fun!
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Just imagine all the "behind the scenes" people that knew about this. People that had the attitude of "O i was hired to do a job, why would i bad mouth these people, i got paid, why would i say anything bad about these people". There was quite a few that had that mentality and said it publicly post-event.
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A few things to take from this thread.
E-sports maturity is still at a very low level (you can package me into that figure if you like I don't mind). And fighting publicly is a very common thing re:dox and cheekyduck
The AU scene is one of the tightest knit communities out there. If you aren't in with them, you are nothing to them. So best to walk away if you aren't 'in'. (This is my advice to you Cheeky peeps... No point fighting).
Finally, its hard to digest the original post. Main reactions to it appear to be that of "we already pitch forked the guy so MEH". I don't want to bring race/country etc into a post but I am going to have to.
Doing business in any part of South east asia, someone is going to skim/overcharge/overbudget/pocket money. Its rampant, its common if the CEO isn't doing it, its his secretary, if it isn't the secretary its the cleaner if its not the cleaner its the taxi driver. Its how these parts of the world operate.. I am sure some people from SEA (non aus) can back me up on this.
What has happened sucks. Punishments whether necessary or not have been dealt out. Emotional stress has occured. Dragging this up with information, is for sure necessary in case something occurs in the future and is a lesson to learn about checking and double checking everything time and time again.
To put a halo on gus? Well, the event was pretty shitty so thats not justified at all. His job was to put on a great event as far as I understand, and although it was nice for the locals, the event by global standards sucked. He failed in his job.
Regardless, the way this information has been presented is difficult to digest. The main focus points could be seen as personal attacks which should be done in private and not in a post that is trying to highlight useful information.
Anyway, thats just how I see things.
ciao
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For this to even pop up so much later than it unfolded should smell fishy to anyone looking at it critically. I was really hoping this was completely behind us, but alas, I was wrong.
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I think you should of just stuck to the Amanda debacle, trying to play the violin card for Gus and trying to drag down Rossi's name wrongfully question's the validity of the whole thing.
As avoiderdragon said, everyone had their faults
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On April 16 2013 00:18 pdd wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Great, it's reopened, I can finally post the analysis I took about 1 hours to compile/write.
Can we talk about the numbers for a second? How much exactly is Cheekyduck suspecting that Amanda made? $5,847.90? Because from what I understand off Cheekyduck's evidence, the only amount I see as a major problem is the money lost due to IGN paying an extra $500 or so.
Difference in quotations between email Amanda sent and invoice she sent
If you do the math between the email Amanda sent (quoting PHP 657,603) and the Invoice (quoting PHP 715,878), you'll notice that the figure was increased because:
- two extra tickets were purchased from Korea (totalling an extra $62,647). Counting the number of people who flew in from Korea, the email only lists 16 while the invoice lists 18 people (the names of the people who flew changed a bit... ie Carn wasn't in the email, but was in the invoice, but he replaced someone else).
- she added PHP466 for Rachel's ticket, as the price quoted in the email was likely just an approximation
- Sen's ticket price actually dropped from PHP26,353 to 21,511.
Reconciling these: 657,603 + 62,647 + 466 - 26,353 + 21,511 = 715,874 (close enough to the price she quoted of 715,878).
So in that sense, she didn't change anything in terms of price between the email and invoice.
Claims that Amanda has been doubly paid in excess of US$5,000
I don't get this one either. So now we have PHP715,878, of which PHP215,000 has (even Amanda admits been paid by Gus). This makes for 500,878PHP, which is equivalent to $11,689.00, of which IGN paid her $12,172.27. Cheekyduck claims that Amanda was paid around $5367 on top of this, but it's shown that the $5367 rounds out to PHP230,000 (of which $215,000 was admittedly used for the plane tickets). Also, it's worth noting that the receipts posted don't even add up to PHP200,000.
This means that the only excess Amanda paid was the $500 that IGN paid and the PHP15,000 difference (230-215k) or around $350. So in all, I can only see $850 as the excess which is unaccounted for (if we forget about the exchange rate of 42.85 being "dodgy", which at the moment remains unclear and even then, it doesn't prove that Amanda intentionally cheated anyone). It's certainly a far cry from the $5.8k that Cheekyduck seems to be suggesting she cheated everyone out of. Also, to reiterate, the receipts do not prove that Gus paid PHP230,000. We know that Amanda received at least PHP215,000, based on her own admission, so the $350 USD here is still in contention.
Fudging of figures
Cheekyduck also claims that Amanda fudged numbers and constantly hounded her in the FB convo over the fact that 1644 x 42.85 =/= 70466 (it's actually 70445, which is 20 Pesos or $0.46 off). Well, 1, that was the only mathematical mistake in the invoice and 2, even if you multiplied it by 20-25 people, that would only be $10-11.50 of surplus.
Unless, Cheekyduck missed her major points, the mathematics in her evidences just don't substantiate her claims that Amanda was actively cheating and this has been blown way out of proportion.
Other matters
Frankly I don't understand why the Rossi streamcheating issue was brought up, or why Dox/YoonYJ were brought into this.
The issue of fraud as it pertains to finance lies in the people who handled the money. IGN, Gus and Amanda. Dox and YYJ should have been left out of it.
Ultimately, while this post helps put Gus in a better light, it makes very stark accusations which seem to be unfounded at the moment and should be edited out of the post. (or make it more clear where the unaccounted numbers come from)
Maybe I'm crazy, and I'm definitely having a hard time following this all, but did you not take into account the $5000 that was raised in donations? Or was that spent on something else or something? Was that just part of the $12000 from IGN?
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On April 16 2013 01:03 Gorlin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 00:18 pdd wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Great, it's reopened, I can finally post the analysis I took about 1 hours to compile/write.
Can we talk about the numbers for a second? How much exactly is Cheekyduck suspecting that Amanda made? $5,847.90? Because from what I understand off Cheekyduck's evidence, the only amount I see as a major problem is the money lost due to IGN paying an extra $500 or so.
Difference in quotations between email Amanda sent and invoice she sent
If you do the math between the email Amanda sent (quoting PHP 657,603) and the Invoice (quoting PHP 715,878), you'll notice that the figure was increased because:
- two extra tickets were purchased from Korea (totalling an extra $62,647). Counting the number of people who flew in from Korea, the email only lists 16 while the invoice lists 18 people (the names of the people who flew changed a bit... ie Carn wasn't in the email, but was in the invoice, but he replaced someone else).
- she added PHP466 for Rachel's ticket, as the price quoted in the email was likely just an approximation
- Sen's ticket price actually dropped from PHP26,353 to 21,511.
Reconciling these: 657,603 + 62,647 + 466 - 26,353 + 21,511 = 715,874 (close enough to the price she quoted of 715,878).
So in that sense, she didn't change anything in terms of price between the email and invoice.
Claims that Amanda has been doubly paid in excess of US$5,000
I don't get this one either. So now we have PHP715,878, of which PHP215,000 has (even Amanda admits been paid by Gus). This makes for 500,878PHP, which is equivalent to $11,689.00, of which IGN paid her $12,172.27. Cheekyduck claims that Amanda was paid around $5367 on top of this, but it's shown that the $5367 rounds out to PHP230,000 (of which $215,000 was admittedly used for the plane tickets). Also, it's worth noting that the receipts posted don't even add up to PHP200,000.
This means that the only excess Amanda paid was the $500 that IGN paid and the PHP15,000 difference (230-215k) or around $350. So in all, I can only see $850 as the excess which is unaccounted for (if we forget about the exchange rate of 42.85 being "dodgy", which at the moment remains unclear and even then, it doesn't prove that Amanda intentionally cheated anyone). It's certainly a far cry from the $5.8k that Cheekyduck seems to be suggesting she cheated everyone out of. Also, to reiterate, the receipts do not prove that Gus paid PHP230,000. We know that Amanda received at least PHP215,000, based on her own admission, so the $350 USD here is still in contention.
Fudging of figures
Cheekyduck also claims that Amanda fudged numbers and constantly hounded her in the FB convo over the fact that 1644 x 42.85 =/= 70466 (it's actually 70445, which is 20 Pesos or $0.46 off). Well, 1, that was the only mathematical mistake in the invoice and 2, even if you multiplied it by 20-25 people, that would only be $10-11.50 of surplus.
Unless, Cheekyduck missed her major points, the mathematics in her evidences just don't substantiate her claims that Amanda was actively cheating and this has been blown way out of proportion.
Other matters
Frankly I don't understand why the Rossi streamcheating issue was brought up, or why Dox/YoonYJ were brought into this.
The issue of fraud as it pertains to finance lies in the people who handled the money. IGN, Gus and Amanda. Dox and YYJ should have been left out of it.
Ultimately, while this post helps put Gus in a better light, it makes very stark accusations which seem to be unfounded at the moment and should be edited out of the post. (or make it more clear where the unaccounted numbers come from)
Maybe I'm crazy, and I'm definitely having a hard time following this all, but did you not take into account the $5000 that was raised in donations? Or was that spent on something else or something?
The $5k from donations was from IGN. They gave her 7+5k making the $12k. At least that's the interpretation from her post.
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On April 16 2013 00:11 avoiderdragon wrote:Since this issue has been raised again for some reason, don't mind me while I leave here some of the stuff that I wasn't able to post a year and a half ago (because I was stupid). IntroductionFirst of all, my name is Sonny Go and I was the content manager for Team AZK when the IPL 4 Pacific Qualifiers were being organized. I basically did most of the copywriting for the event, posting them on Team Liquid and SC2SEA, as well as Liquipedia. I was also updating the social media accounts and Liquipedia entry as the results came in. I also helped edit and rewrite the apology letter that was posted after the event. The reason why I only released this now is simple -- I am an idiot. I was hurt by what happened during the aftermath and couldn't get myself to strike the iron while it was still hot. Perhaps the advantage to this though is that right now, the information I have may be assessed with clearer minds. This post was not made to directly refute most of CheekyDuck's allegations, including those against Amanda. In fact, I don't know much about the financial stuff and had nothing to do with it. I'm just taking this opportunity to finally put out the screenshots that I had been sitting on for so long. After this has been posted, I've done my part. Why Now?As early as March 25 of this year, we heard a rumor about Gus wanting to start something again and had brought in those close to him during the whole PPSL thing (seems like they're good friends). I didn't think that the gossip was true, but I had prepared to compile this stuff since then. Lo and behold, something was posted, and I took the chance. Derek "Dox" Reball, the organizer of the Australian qualifiers for the event and now the manager of Team Nv (Moonglade's team), recently posted a blog entry regarding his thoughts on people who like to jump the shark in eSports, and had mentioned about "a large number of ambitious eSports enthusiasts who popped up in 2011... decide they want to emulate the success of Evil Geniuses or Major League Gaming". This must have triggered CheekyDuck to want to interview him live on Twitch to address his "lies". Seems that nothing really came out of it, so she started this thread. I got the link through Amanda, who doesn't want to say anything since she's still quite traumatized from what happened in 2011. + Show Spoiler +My Conversation with DoxFor those who watched the CSN interview with Dox after PPSL, perhaps you remember the middle portion of that video wherein he apologized to someone working for Gus at that time who was "blunt and aggressive". That guy was me, and that apology came after I posted screenshots of my Skype conversations with Dox in his blog entry about his dealings with the PPSL, where he also mentioned me as Gus' accomplice. I was just doing my job. + Show Spoiler +But here's the kicker. At the same time when that conversation was taking place, I was talking to Gus in Google about the Liquipedia article for the event. I was trying to talk some sense into him on being diplomatic, while he was angry about some Aussie "stealing our thunder". In fact, this was the reason why I then contacted Dox through Skype. + Show Spoiler +I was supposed to write about the event on Liquipedia, but someone else already did on Dox's behalf. Gus must have taken this as a slight and I had to talk some sense to him about it. Lucky that I was able to take those screenshots while our Gmail accounts were still active, because they did get deleted days after the event. + Show Spoiler +Dealing with an angry Gus in the early morning through chat about that Liquipedia entry was quite surreal. I understand why he'd be so angry, but that should never be a part of any business decision, no matter what. During the EventAt the day of the event, Gus hit me up to talk about the players from Team Cube (from Cebu) who weren't attending due to not being able to book flights. Since it's already the day of the event, that wouldn't really be possible. When he gave up on the idea, he left me instructions then said that he was going back to his house because he was lacking sleep. + Show Spoiler +Unfortunately, this ill-advised act of macromanaging meant that he was absent when the Internet connection we had on-site, courtesy of Globe Telecom, was not giving us the bandwidth we needed. This started a chain reaction that derailed the whole event. When we were having the connection troubles, I was trying to reach Gus through my cellphone, but he wasn't answering. By around 2PM, he finally picked up and I told him about what's going on. It took some time before he got back, most likely because he lived in Paranaque, which is kind of far from the venue. + Show Spoiler +Soon enough, the computers were crashing and unable to play StarCraft II. It turns out, from what I heard, that each computer had two sets of video drivers in them, both for Nvidia and ATi. Since we were using Nvidia cards, courtesy of sponsorship, we had to uninstall the other drivers. But when this was figured out, it was already quite late and a good number of the players were sent to an Internet cafe, which was also in Paranaque (maybe because Gus has connections there), to play out the rest of the matches. That's the only information I have regarding that. Matchfixing AllegationsThis is a special section since I have something to say about the whole matchfixing thing. The truth is that there was no matchfixing; it was actually my fault. This is how it happened. On the second day of the event (November 8, 2011), I woke up at around 7AM and checked my Facebook for updates. I noticed that there was a bracket posted containing the names of the players who had qualified from group play. I immediately thought that they must have already drawn the names for it, so I thought that in order to save me some time, I'll just enter that in Liquipedia. Once I finished, I got prepared and left for the event. When I arrived at the venue, Eins Rojas (one of the crewmembers) asked me about the bracket on Liquipedia I posted and urged me to delete them as soon as possible because it wasn't the real one at all. What I saw on Facebook must've been a sample. The brackets were later drawn by a Korean, most likely one of the managers (maybe from StarTale, since it wasn't oGsTheWind). The AZK players being spread out in the brackets and the "original" having them against each other is merely a coincidence. There was no matchfixing; it was just me being an overdiligent idiot. When the Event FinishedAfter Tastosis left for the airport, MarineKing was awarded with the first place prize, and most of the live audience had left, we were called backstage to be informed by Gus that due to sponsors pulling out, we weren't going to be paid. During the afterevent "party", I asked Gus about how much he was going to pay me. He told me that I was to be given PhP5,000 ($120) for my efforts, and I was actually fine with that since I'm just happy to be paid. In fact, I even told him that if he were to give me a Razer keyboard, I'd consider that as payment. I'm really easy to please. Of course, I never got that at all once the financial fallout reared its ugly head. There was the whole Amanda and Clive situation with the threat of imprisonment, which was quite frightening. Amanda was and still is a quivering mess because of it and will never provide a rebuttal to CheekyDuck's allegations because she's just that traumatized. This is not a call for sympathy; in fact, it just states that we're no real threat to them at this point. They want nothing to do about the whole thing, and I'm acting on my own volition. ConclusionI gain absolutely nothing from posting this at all (actually, it's a waste of my time). However, upon being given the opportunity to put up all of the stuff that has been sitting in my Dropbox account for over 17 months has been too good to pass up. This attempt to salvage Gus' reputation is valiant, but quite misguided. He had his faults, and the sponsors and other crewmembers had theirs as well. The bottom line is that in terms of the event itself, we blew it. The financial fallout though is out of the hands of the crewmembers since most of us never had anything to do with the money. I can't give any concrete judgement on that since I haven't been educated about the financial situation during that time. Maybe the whole "silent hero" thing is built upon him having brought to us Filipino StarCraft enthusiasts a chance to meet some of our heroes in the flesh and watch them do what they do best. Alright then, I guess we can give props to him for that somehow. But him being a hero? I don't think so. It would have been better if the IGN Pro League never had to go through that mishap at all, even if we never have had that experience if that was the case. We could have been spared from all that drama. No one needed that at all. My Thoughts on GusFirst of all, I had no personal loyalties to Gus. I got on the boat when I answered his call for a writer in the StarcraftPH Facebook group. I'm a freelance writer by trade, so I joined in for the experience and the potential pay. I had started playing StarCraft II on January 2011 and perhaps it was just me being in the right place at the right time. I do have to say that Gus had a talent for getting people to join his cause. He did have some tricks in his sleeve to keep them hooked as well, like name-dropping and other persuasion tactics. Those tactics aren't necessarily bad per se, since they're employed in sales and marketing, and they did work for the purpose of getting the whole PPSL thing going back then. However, what does stick in everyone's craw is how he managed the people under his wing and how he makes decisions based on emotional impulse. Perhaps he was getting overwhelmed by everything going on around him, but that's exactly what he wasn't supposed to do in that scenario in the first place. As far as allegations go, most of the ones involving Gus' hot head are pretty much true -- he does let his temper and stress get the best of him when it comes to important decisions. As far as CheekyDuck's testimony of Gus having to sell his computer and scraping by to feed his family goes, we don't know anything about that, and we can't really be expected to believe it without any concrete evidence. That attempt to grab our sympathy, as well as calling Gus a "silent hero", makes me scratch my head. Anyone actually falling for this? In the end, I harbor no lingering ill will towards Mr. Gus Ledesma. I wish him luck to his future endeavors. However, it must be said that when it comes to any eSports-related activities, no one should make it easy for him at all. Gus, please just go do something else. === EDIT: Grammatical corrections.
It's a terrible situation, where many people in this event were left unpaid and out of pocket!
I can assure you that when i talk to Gus his time has always been limited, the little phone icon comes up when he fb. (meaning no computer)
And i also want to say i am sorry for my choice of words. My intention was not to wash away all blame, as honestly he ran an event, and it failed. But he is not a monster.
I can say that i don't believe Gus feels he is not to blame either, i don't believe he would shoulder the blame if he didn't think he let people down.
But it's good you bought this information forward. I can ask gus to address it, but from my understanding with this situation Gus was furious that Dox was stealing the lime light and taking credit for someones hard work, it is my opinion that i think he believed he was doing this intentionally.
i don't believe you are stupid, you came forward and corrected dox with his miss-information about you, and its obvious from this that you approached dox diplomatically in a very tense situation (with Gus being stressed and angry).
In regards to Gus being absent, i know that he was also working full time and didn't sleep for 3 days beforehand. (as clive would pick him up from work and he would leave after dinner)
again, i am sorry if my heading has caused offense, i should have considered more the people who were also effected financially. I hope that this is only a reflection on my bad choice of words to have a catchy title, rather than a reflection of how Gus views himself. Because after talking to him, i know thats not true.
but in regards to Amanda: there is money missing.
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So this came out since we cannot blame IPL anymore?
Haha sorry I really got lost in this debacle.
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I think it's important that the truth comes out. It's relevant to me since I'm from manila and I care about sc2 as an esport.
Even with all the mess that happened here two years ago, I'm still glad it happened since we got to watch and meet MKP , Tastosis, and all the other pros.
I do appreciate the new information and I hope more people shed more light on this one.
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On April 16 2013 00:50 ReachTheSky wrote:
Just imagine all the "behind the scenes" people that knew about this. People that had the attitude of "O i was hired to do a job, why would i bad mouth these people, i got paid, why would i say anything bad about these people". There was quite a few that had that mentality and said it publicly post-event.
because negativity hurts esports, and so if you are negative you are the worst person of the bunch. esports motto seems to be, lying is bad but being honest is worse.
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On April 15 2013 21:53 deth wrote:
The major problem I see here is that you're so absolutely sure of yourself, that you start from the position that everything Gus says is true and that everyone else is part of this huge conspiracy to steal money and ruin a guy's life.
You're completely ignoring all compelling evidence put forward from many other community members, and painting a completely biased picture from one side of the equation. No effort whatsoever has been given to balance here.
It's so evident through all your chat logs that you weren't discussing the issues with the people at hand, you were persecuting them.
EDIT2: I'd also point out that accusing Rossi of stream cheating is just as bad, if not worse than half the shit you're defending ledesma from here.
^This.
OP's tone is condescending and borderline arrogant(This is your last chance). I graduated with a degree in accounting and some of the screenshots looks perfectly fine to me(Financial ones), the only ones that are shady are the breakdown of the money paid to amanda and breakdown of certain SS of flight payments. If you did abit of googling, you would realise that the exchange rate of 42.85 is actually very fair. You youself said that it was 43-44, so honestly 0.15 isnt that big of a deal. Keep in mind that exchange rates you searched on the internet tend to be better than those offered by banks and money changers.
I would agree that Amanda seems to be shady but my opinion on Gus still stands, hes a lazy scum but misappropriated funds.
Also, on Rossi stream cheating. Nope, not buying it. I dunno the guy on a personal level but ive been active on SEA for 2-3 years. But im telling you, i dont believe it.
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On April 16 2013 01:20 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 00:50 ReachTheSky wrote:
Just imagine all the "behind the scenes" people that knew about this. People that had the attitude of "O i was hired to do a job, why would i bad mouth these people, i got paid, why would i say anything bad about these people". There was quite a few that had that mentality and said it publicly post-event. because negativity hurts esports, and so if you are negative you are the worst person of the bunch. esports motto seems to be, lying is bad but being honest is worse.
There is a difference between honesty and negativity. People say crass, harsh things in private because, its well..you know, private. Just because people have the ability to repeat this information does not mean that they should. There are things I say about my clients that should be repeated to them or anyone.
In this case, I can't really tell who is right, wrong or who did what. General information is nice, but this all happened some time ago. I don't really hear a lot about how people plan to resolve it. If the thrust of the thread is "Hey, there was this really bad thing that happened over a year ago, but we have new information that we think you should know.", I am of the opinion that it is not very valuable to the community. It is drama with no real purpose and just rehashes the risks of giving money to events to potential sponsors.
That is just mean, but I find most of the content in this thread to be a distraction and not pressing at all. Accusing people of stuff on the internet isn't really a way to solve a problem unless it is backed up by actions off line.
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On April 16 2013 00:21 UHF wrote:
So I've been trying to go through this mess and make sense of it, and I still don't seem to be able to work out what's going on.
The email
Amanda sends out an email for the original quotes on the 3rd November 2011.
The invoicing
A table is provided (i assume you made this) that aligns with the email:
The total listed expenses are shown as 715,878 PHP ($16,706 USD).
The balance is listed as 515,878 PHP ($12,039 USD).
This would indicate a total of 200,000 PHP ($4,667 USD) has been paid for.
The receipts
Receipts from the 4th November 2011 are supplied listed as received from Team AZK (this is Gus isn't it?)
- receipts for Rachel & Ross's tickets total 130,542 PHP ($3,046 USD).
- 3 receipts for the Tower Inn total 48,400 PHP ($1,129 USD)
- deposit slip from Metrobank was 15,000 PHP ($350 USD)
Total = 193,942 PHP ($4526 USD)
So a total of approx. $4,600 is paid by Gus to Amanda.
Amanda's claim
On the 15th November 2011 Amanda is on record as to claiming she still hasn't received 515,878 PHP ($12,000 USD). So good so far, no lies told, no money missing.
The receipt from IGN
A receipt is shown dated 22nd November 2011, for a total of $12,172 from IGN. I assume this is the $7,000 supplied by IGN & $5,000 raised by the community.
Adding all that up
So if we add up all the receipts you've provided, we arrive at a number extremely close to the original invoice of 715,878 PHP ($16,706 USD). It's not exact, but it's so close you wouldn't bat an eyelid.
What am i missing?
I'm confused how Amanda pocketed any money out of this. If she did, you provided no evidence of it, unless I totally missed something (in which case I'll redo my numbers).
Amanda has sent a few invoices.
The invoicing
this is amanda's last offical invoice (her numbers)
you would need to do the math (from the start) to start seeing the numbers don't add up
her exchange rate is 42.85 the usd final price doesn't match (continually done over invoices)
The receipts
total for Amanda was 230 000PHP based on the receipts
as 215 000 + 15 000 php from gus was paid.
with exchange of 42.85
$5367.56 given directly
Amanda's claim
my issue with this is that why did she manually remove the fare information from the tickets?
and why are the invoices submitted in an email, without any proof of money owing (letter head, tax breakdown, ref numbers)
the excuses for not booking tickets after the first "deposit is paid" is many
- bookings closed
- 1000 excess
i have talked to AA and when you book with an agency 14 people you get group rates, they said there is no way they wouldn't give a group price.
no one will ever know what these tickets cost, i can only compare them to market information.
but lets just say we in this instance believe her invoices to be true:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/l1VUnIC.png)
Therefore total costs were $11,691.94
She was asking for $12,172.27
She billed IGN / IPL, but the total money she received that i know of was $17,539.83 (at an exchange rate of 42.85 Php to the USD)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GsGTP4z.png)
but then keep in mind she got 230 000 as per the receipts.
so then, why does this receipt that she gave to IGN reflect? how could you over pay? and who was it signed by.
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United States22883 Posts
On April 16 2013 01:13 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
I can assure you that when i talk to Gus his time has always been limited, the little phone icon comes up when he fb. (meaning no computer)
I realize this is just a small, stickling point, but I think it speaks to the thread and evidence as a whole.
How does this information lead to your conclusion? It seems like your threshhold for evidence is very low, and there's a lot of confirmation bias going on here.
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On April 16 2013 00:45 `dunedain wrote:
Wow, that post by SonnyGo aka AvoiderDragon brought back a lot of memories.
Lol at what a fucking douchebag Gus is...
BTW, he revoked everyone's TeamAZK email address (not just Sonny's), even the one linked to my KR region back then.
Yea, that's how much of a douche he is. As in literally changed passwords of all our email addresses, so we couldn't log back in.
I got over it after a while, but that's not to say I wasn't pissed the fuck off when I couldn't access my shit.
Remembering this, I now have no qualms about the fall out that befell him.
He was an asshole and probably still is one now.
The reason this information is available is because all the emails were frozen, people were leaking information to flame Gus on the internet. which was ruining the teams chances of recovering sponsorship money.
The damage was done and it was too late, amanda getting her funds early meant the team didn't get the 20K, amanda got the money.
I have talked with the other manager of PPSL, he thought Gus had the 20K and was shocked to find that only 7.5k was given, and most of that funding from IPL went to amanda.
I hope you take away that everyone but a few lost out from this situation.
your language is very... not nice.
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On April 16 2013 01:38 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 01:13 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
I can assure you that when i talk to Gus his time has always been limited, the little phone icon comes up when he fb. (meaning no computer)
I realize this is just a small, stickling point, but I think it speaks to the thread and evidence as a whole. How does this information lead to your conclusion? It seems like your threshhold for evidence is very low, and there's a lot of confirmation bias going on here.
well i never thought you would need to prove you sold your computer, but i guess i can chase that up.
in regards to Amanda
the Fare information was removed, i can upload the pdf (if you open the information in illustraor you get the text line dot)
and also if you compare it to fare information part is missing or just blank on some.
i think people are getting lazy and only adding the USD.
please add the PHP / 42.85 and you'll see the different numbers
and then remember amanda claimed she only received 200 000, or 215 000 but inface was given 230 000
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So many people stream-cheat these days lol,
but i for one can attest how easy it would be to get your twitch ID caught in another players stream.
I ladder all the time with people like Idra, or Catz, or any of the top players really on my 2nd monitor and every once and a while I unintentionally match them. From there I just pause the stream, I dont close it, and after the game I go back to watching it.
With that said, I'm glad to see some more information come to light on this issue and although Gus seems like a moron he doesn't deserve to be blindly hated by everyone.
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On April 16 2013 01:38 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 01:13 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
I can assure you that when i talk to Gus his time has always been limited, the little phone icon comes up when he fb. (meaning no computer)
I realize this is just a small, stickling point, but I think it speaks to the thread and evidence as a whole. How does this information lead to your conclusion? It seems like your threshhold for evidence is very low, and there's a lot of confirmation bias going on here.
My real question is what is the end goal of all of this? I don't think anyone is going to work with any of these people ever again, regardless of who did what. Is the goal here to prove someone not-guilty before the jury that is the internet?
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@ k204
Nice edit.
Next time you wanna accuse an entire community of something, please provide some proof. Also, Nobody is saying Cheeky doesnt have valid points/evidence. There is just a small group of people that disagrees with certain parts where she did not provide sufficient evidence.
PS:I find it ironic that certain individuals with 1-2 post and a recent join date would talk like they know alot abt the incident. Waiting for your specific and special moment to post?
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On April 16 2013 01:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 01:38 Jibba wrote:On April 16 2013 01:13 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
I can assure you that when i talk to Gus his time has always been limited, the little phone icon comes up when he fb. (meaning no computer)
I realize this is just a small, stickling point, but I think it speaks to the thread and evidence as a whole. How does this information lead to your conclusion? It seems like your threshhold for evidence is very low, and there's a lot of confirmation bias going on here. My real question is what is the end goal of all of this? I don't think anyone is going to work with any of these people ever again, regardless of who did what. Is the goal here to prove someone not-guilty before the jury that is the internet?
to write my wrong.
My gossip, i begged mOOnglaDe to join team AZK, and the information i provided was part of the YYJ post that caused IPL to pull sponsorship.
Not just to Gus, but to everyone effected, i am deeply sorry.
Even though i had good intentions and wanted to have a holiday with my friends, the result of my actions have caused people a lot of pain.
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On April 16 2013 02:06 Shortizz wrote:
@ k204
Nice edit.
Next time you wanna accuse an entire community of something, please provide some proof. Also, Nobody is saying Cheeky doesnt have valid points/evidence. There is just a small group of people that disagrees with certain parts where she did not provide sufficient evidence.
as not everything is posted, there is ... a shit load more correspondence. most of it needs to have 3rd party names removed.
but. i am off to bed, i am happy to submit more information or clarify any conclusion.
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wow, never expected this.
i can assume its a good thing ipl is being taken over by blizz now huh?
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cheeky, you might need more concrete evidence on the Rossi cheating thing. honestly, i sometimes watch streams during tournaments and when it's my turn to play i pause the stream. the name will still be there in the viewer list but the stream isn't on.
Also, from the things i can remember about gus. it was so long ago so i don't know if these are correct:
1. Initially not wanting to accept heLp from non-AZK people. 1-2 weeks before PPSL, there was another event held in Manila and it went off without a hitch. The same people offered help but they were refused. Eventually i think they were allowed to help but in a minor role? i don't remember too well.
2. Gus not wanting profiles of non-AZK people who helped out with the event put in the PPSL website. IIRC he raged when this was proposed.
3. Inviting Jabi and EnDerr to play a showmatch in an AZK tournament, but not allowing them to join said tournament.
4. I don't know if this was during tournament or just a showmatch but he'd PM his players telling him his opponent's moves, units, etc. (I'm pretty sure about this one because my friend used to be AZK and Gus PM'd him during said tourney / showmatch. although i think it was just a showmatch)
5. Leaving Clive to foot the remainder of the hotel bill was not cool. Threatening with a lawyer when approached was even worse.
6. Not sleeping 3 Days prior to the event, but posting pics of him drinking with Tastosis? mmm... you'd think he'd want to sleep when he could instead of spend the night partying.
7. HoNslaught. it was NEVER addressed. the players waited the whole day and nothing happened. poor guys.
There might be more, but i can't remember anymore. Anyway, my point is Gus probably really wanted the event to work. He probably isn't the scam artist we were initially lead to believe, but the guy is a douche. he mismanaged the whole thing and didn't man up to it.
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On April 16 2013 02:10 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 02:06 Shortizz wrote:
@ k204
Nice edit.
Next time you wanna accuse an entire community of something, please provide some proof. Also, Nobody is saying Cheeky doesnt have valid points/evidence. There is just a small group of people that disagrees with certain parts where she did not provide sufficient evidence. as not everything is posted, there is ... a shit load more correspondence. most of it needs to have 3rd party names removed. but. i am off to bed, i am happy to submit more information or clarify any conclusion.
i think you mean confusion. and i wasn't around when all of this mess was going down, but you seem to provide a good argument and seem very logical.
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what about the fundings for all the players accommodation? i only see rachel's and gunrun's accommodation reciepts. those $$$ all been accounted for?
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On April 16 2013 01:50 TOdesKaMpF wrote:
I ladder all the time with people like Idra, or Catz, or any of the top players really on my 2nd monitor and every once and a while I unintentionally match them. From there I just pause the stream, I dont close it, and after the game I go back to watching it.
On April 16 2013 02:20 Pobbes wrote:
cheeky, you might need more concrete evidence on the Rossi cheating thing. honestly, i sometimes watch streams during tournaments and when it's my turn to play i pause the stream. the name will still be there in the viewer list but the stream isn't on.
You guys should really stop doing that to avoid any potential confusion in the future. Close the tab, bros. One case of star sense with your name in the stream list and you've got a full blown witchhunt on your hands.
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I find the most abhorrent part of this tirade is the unnecessary torching of Dox, Yoon and Rossi's repuations.
Dox has probably done more for the Aussie (SEA?) scene than anyone else, and to paint him as the villain is laughable. Your attempt to ambush him on stream failed, he wasn't lying about Gus trying to poach Glade, the contract was clearly not upheld (even if the money problems are more clearly explained now) and he had every reason to be suspicious of Gus' motives with the evidence the other members of team AZK have brought up with respect to his opinion of Dox. I bet he's glad you saved him the trouble of kicking you off the team by now.
Yoon should have got the spot, I don't understand at all why you would post those logs. What does a personal spat between the 2 of you have to do with this? All you've done here is prove your own character even more by betraying his confidence.
Rossi is a very well known name at least in the SEA community by now, please have some common decency and edit this out, it has nothing to do with the issue, but is quite indicative of your approach to the whole issue. As Jibba pointed out, you've repeatedly made giant kangaroo hops (I can make that joke cos I'm an aussie right?) from internet hearsay to bamboozling conclusions.
As far as Amanda goes, despite your hilarious Spanish-inquisition antics, she seems to have answered all your questions as fully as she could. Until we get a few independent people verifying the accounting details it's hard to point one way or the other, but after seeing the giant bubblegum ball the rest of your post is, I don't imagine it's going to amount to much unless your math ability is a lot stronger than your English.
It seems like this will swing on whether the numbers she quoted for hotels etc. were in usd or php, but if it adds up exactly using php, even if she did say usd somewhere at some point, I'm inclined to believe that could have just been a careless mistake, and the real amount was exactly what she got paid.
Tl;dr Cheeky writes this with the same aplomb that Gus planned the tournament. Everyone else seems sane, I'm siding with them.
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On April 16 2013 00:18 pdd wrote:
- two extra tickets were purchased from Korea (totalling an extra $62,647). Counting the number of people who flew in from Korea, the email only lists 16 while the invoice lists 18 people (the names of the people who flew changed a bit... ie Carn wasn't in the email, but was in the invoice, but he replaced someone else).
I wasn't a replacement I was the 2nd player to qualify for this event after Sen ... I think this may be due to the fact that my team purchased the tickets first and then got refunded by Gus (or something along those lines, it's been a while I don't remember exactly how we dealt with ticket, I just know my team and Gus had an agreement on this).
I just remember we weren't sure how to do this since I was going to PPSL right after ESWC, so we were thinking whether I come from Paris or stop by Korea before going, my name missing in the email is probably because it wasn't decided yet.
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On April 16 2013 02:35 tribulator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 01:50 TOdesKaMpF wrote:
I ladder all the time with people like Idra, or Catz, or any of the top players really on my 2nd monitor and every once and a while I unintentionally match them. From there I just pause the stream, I dont close it, and after the game I go back to watching it.
Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 02:20 Pobbes wrote:
cheeky, you might need more concrete evidence on the Rossi cheating thing. honestly, i sometimes watch streams during tournaments and when it's my turn to play i pause the stream. the name will still be there in the viewer list but the stream isn't on.
You guys should really stop doing that to avoid any potential confusion in the future. Close the tab, bros. One case of star sense with your name in the stream list and you've got a full blown witchhunt on your hands.
Agreed. This is a terrible practice(pausing the stream, but still showing up in stream chat) for any potential player and should be avoided. I am always going lean toward caution and assume that anyone who does this was cheating, because the excuse of "I paused the stream" can't be confirmed in any way.
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So pretty much the only conclusion I was able to take from reading this thread is that when engaging in business deals to always do everything in public, only work with 100% legitimate and trustworthy people with experience, keep detailed invoices and statements of everything, and to be completely open with everyone at all times.
God, but this kind of thing makes me never want to work in E-Sports.
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On April 16 2013 02:53 sc2superfan101 wrote:
So pretty much the only conclusion I was able to take from reading this thread is that when engaging in business deals to always do everything in public, only work with 100% legitimate and trustworthy people with experience, keep detailed invoices and statements of everything, and to be completely open with everyone at all times.
God, but this kind of thing makes me never want to work in E-Sports.
This is pretty much a good practice for life. Though you don't need to everything in public and you only need to tell people as much as they is necessary for them to make an informed decision. But trust is a key part of all business, law or any other aspect of professional interaction. People like to think that rules/law keep everyone in line, but is mostly professionalism and trust that make the world go around. Laws/rule/contracts are only used when there is no other option and are often not worth the effort to enforce.
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On April 16 2013 00:57 FXOBoSs wrote:
A few things to take from this thread.
E-sports maturity is still at a very low level (you can package me into that figure if you like I don't mind). And fighting publicly is a very common thing re:dox and cheekyduck
The AU scene is one of the tightest knit communities out there. If you aren't in with them, you are nothing to them. So best to walk away if you aren't 'in'. (This is my advice to you Cheeky peeps... No point fighting).
Finally, its hard to digest the original post. Main reactions to it appear to be that of "we already pitch forked the guy so MEH". I don't want to bring race/country etc into a post but I am going to have to.
Doing business in any part of South east asia, someone is going to skim/overcharge/overbudget/pocket money. Its rampant, its common if the CEO isn't doing it, its his secretary, if it isn't the secretary its the cleaner if its not the cleaner its the taxi driver. Its how these parts of the world operate.. I am sure some people from SEA (non aus) can back me up on this.
What has happened sucks. Punishments whether necessary or not have been dealt out. Emotional stress has occured. Dragging this up with information, is for sure necessary in case something occurs in the future and is a lesson to learn about checking and double checking everything time and time again.
To put a halo on gus? Well, the event was pretty shitty so thats not justified at all. His job was to put on a great event as far as I understand, and although it was nice for the locals, the event by global standards sucked. He failed in his job.
Regardless, the way this information has been presented is difficult to digest. The main focus points could be seen as personal attacks which should be done in private and not in a post that is trying to highlight useful information.
Anyway, thats just how I see things.
ciao
Unfortunately that's how it works in a lot of places in the world. Now while I agree that Gus isn't entirely cleaned up by this, it's obvious he didn't deserve the treatment he got from the community. Neither did Amanda. Frankly it seems the esport community is way to easily manipulated in the name of ESPORT into charity AND pitchfork alike. Neither of which are good for the business.
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On April 16 2013 02:46 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 02:35 tribulator wrote:On April 16 2013 01:50 TOdesKaMpF wrote:
I ladder all the time with people like Idra, or Catz, or any of the top players really on my 2nd monitor and every once and a while I unintentionally match them. From there I just pause the stream, I dont close it, and after the game I go back to watching it.
On April 16 2013 02:20 Pobbes wrote:
cheeky, you might need more concrete evidence on the Rossi cheating thing. honestly, i sometimes watch streams during tournaments and when it's my turn to play i pause the stream. the name will still be there in the viewer list but the stream isn't on.
You guys should really stop doing that to avoid any potential confusion in the future. Close the tab, bros. One case of star sense with your name in the stream list and you've got a full blown witchhunt on your hands. Agreed. This is a terrible practice(pausing the stream, but still showing up in stream chat) for any potential player and should be avoided. I am always going lean toward caution and assume that anyone who does this was cheating, because the excuse of "I paused the stream" can't be confirmed in any way.
Well to assume that would be pretty-unfair. I mean obviously its an excuse, but there is no real way to prove legitimate stream cheating. If I really wanted to stream cheat its not that hard to sign out of my twitch account lol
Stream cheating on ladder seems to me at least a silly concept, why would I want to artificially beat someone when i'm trying to improve? In a tournament the stream will have a delay, and it wont matter at all so really stream cheating isn't a big issue I dont feel.
Granted I wouldn't want to be on a team where someone is openly doing it. (Rossi might of been like "lol this guys gay going to watch his stream" or something like that because other than self-admittance I don't think there is any way to prove it
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On April 16 2013 00:18 pdd wrote:
Great, it's reopened, I can finally post the analysis I took about 1 hours to compile/write.
Can we talk about the numbers for a second? How much exactly is Cheekyduck suspecting that Amanda made? $5,847.90? Because from what I understand off Cheekyduck's evidence, the only amount I see as a major problem is the money lost due to IGN paying an extra $500 or so.
Difference in quotations between email Amanda sent and invoice she sent
If you do the math between the email Amanda sent (quoting PHP 657,603) and the Invoice (quoting PHP 715,878), you'll notice that the figure was increased because:
- two extra tickets were purchased from Korea (totalling an extra $62,647). Counting the number of people who flew in from Korea, the email only lists 16 while the invoice lists 18 people (the names of the people who flew changed a bit... ie Carn wasn't in the email, but was in the invoice, but he replaced someone else).
- she added PHP466 for Rachel's ticket, as the price quoted in the email was likely just an approximation
- Sen's ticket price actually dropped from PHP26,353 to 21,511.
Reconciling these: 657,603 + 62,647 + 466 - 26,353 + 21,511 = 715,874 (close enough to the price she quoted of 715,878).
So in that sense, she didn't change anything in terms of price between the email and invoice.
Claims that Amanda has been doubly paid in excess of US$5,000
I don't get this one either. So now we have PHP715,878, of which PHP215,000 has (even Amanda admits been paid by Gus). This makes for 500,878PHP, which is equivalent to $11,689.00, of which IGN paid her $12,172.27. Cheekyduck claims that Amanda was paid around $5367 on top of this, but it's shown that the $5367 rounds out to PHP230,000 (of which $215,000 was admittedly used for the plane tickets). Also, it's worth noting that the receipts posted don't even add up to PHP200,000.
This means that the only excess Amanda paid was the $500 that IGN paid and the PHP15,000 difference (230-215k) or around $350. So in all, I can only see $850 as the excess which is unaccounted for (if we forget about the exchange rate of 42.85 being "dodgy", which at the moment remains unclear and even then, it doesn't prove that Amanda intentionally cheated anyone). It's certainly a far cry from the $5.8k that Cheekyduck seems to be suggesting she cheated everyone out of. Also, to reiterate, the receipts do not prove that Gus paid PHP230,000. We know that Amanda received at least PHP215,000, based on her own admission, so the $350 USD here is still in contention.
Quoting in support of this post.
I tried to do some math of my own. Taking into account only the airfares, there does seem to be a few hundred dollars left unaccounted for. This unaccounted money comes from IGN's payment of $12,172.27 when the accounted fee at that point should have added up to only about* $11,700. I'm probably missing something here, but this seems to be the case with the information given here.
*Varies very slightly depending on how many significant places/decimals you used during the calculations
It also isn't very clear from the OP how much money IPL eventually sponsored for the tournament proper, but I guess this isn't really that important for common people like me to know. Either way, it's kinda >.< even just casually thinking about the discrepancy in terms the money sponsored vs the money required. About 17k for flights, and then you need money for accomodation, for casting, for production, etc. etc. Much ouches there.
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On April 16 2013 04:22 TOdesKaMpF wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 02:46 Plansix wrote:On April 16 2013 02:35 tribulator wrote:On April 16 2013 01:50 TOdesKaMpF wrote:
I ladder all the time with people like Idra, or Catz, or any of the top players really on my 2nd monitor and every once and a while I unintentionally match them. From there I just pause the stream, I dont close it, and after the game I go back to watching it.
On April 16 2013 02:20 Pobbes wrote:
cheeky, you might need more concrete evidence on the Rossi cheating thing. honestly, i sometimes watch streams during tournaments and when it's my turn to play i pause the stream. the name will still be there in the viewer list but the stream isn't on.
You guys should really stop doing that to avoid any potential confusion in the future. Close the tab, bros. One case of star sense with your name in the stream list and you've got a full blown witchhunt on your hands. Agreed. This is a terrible practice(pausing the stream, but still showing up in stream chat) for any potential player and should be avoided. I am always going lean toward caution and assume that anyone who does this was cheating, because the excuse of "I paused the stream" can't be confirmed in any way. Well to assume that would be pretty-unfair. I mean obviously its an excuse, but there is no real way to prove legitimate stream cheating. If I really wanted to stream cheat its not that hard to sign out of my twitch account lol Stream cheating on ladder seems to me at least a silly concept, why would I want to artificially beat someone when i'm trying to improve? In a tournament the stream will have a delay, and it wont matter at all so really stream cheating isn't a big issue I dont feel. Granted I wouldn't want to be on a team where someone is openly doing it. (Rossi might of been like "lol this guys gay going to watch his stream" or something like that because other than self-admittance I don't think there is any way to prove it
Mostly for ego boost. Same reason numerous people maphack on ladder.
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On April 16 2013 04:22 TOdesKaMpF wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 02:46 Plansix wrote:On April 16 2013 02:35 tribulator wrote:On April 16 2013 01:50 TOdesKaMpF wrote:
I ladder all the time with people like Idra, or Catz, or any of the top players really on my 2nd monitor and every once and a while I unintentionally match them. From there I just pause the stream, I dont close it, and after the game I go back to watching it.
On April 16 2013 02:20 Pobbes wrote:
cheeky, you might need more concrete evidence on the Rossi cheating thing. honestly, i sometimes watch streams during tournaments and when it's my turn to play i pause the stream. the name will still be there in the viewer list but the stream isn't on.
You guys should really stop doing that to avoid any potential confusion in the future. Close the tab, bros. One case of star sense with your name in the stream list and you've got a full blown witchhunt on your hands. Agreed. This is a terrible practice(pausing the stream, but still showing up in stream chat) for any potential player and should be avoided. I am always going lean toward caution and assume that anyone who does this was cheating, because the excuse of "I paused the stream" can't be confirmed in any way. Well to assume that would be pretty-unfair. I mean obviously its an excuse, but there is no real way to prove legitimate stream cheating. If I really wanted to stream cheat its not that hard to sign out of my twitch account lol Stream cheating on ladder seems to me at least a silly concept, why would I want to artificially beat someone when i'm trying to improve? In a tournament the stream will have a delay, and it wont matter at all so really stream cheating isn't a big issue I dont feel. Granted I wouldn't want to be on a team where someone is openly doing it. (Rossi might of been like "lol this guys gay going to watch his stream" or something like that because other than self-admittance I don't think there is any way to prove it
Assuming it always unfair, but being in the twitch chat for a tournament you are competing in is beyond stupid. Its almost at stupid as letting a buddy use your account and run hacks while he player on ladder. No one can "prove" anything, but this is not a court of law. Beyond a reasonable doubt is not the standard proof proof required. Personally, I would disqualify anyone that could be proven to have done this, pausing the stream or otherwise.
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On April 16 2013 01:13 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 00:11 avoiderdragon wrote:Since this issue has been raised again for some reason, don't mind me while I leave here some of the stuff that I wasn't able to post a year and a half ago (because I was stupid). IntroductionFirst of all, my name is Sonny Go and I was the content manager for Team AZK when the IPL 4 Pacific Qualifiers were being organized. I basically did most of the copywriting for the event, posting them on Team Liquid and SC2SEA, as well as Liquipedia. I was also updating the social media accounts and Liquipedia entry as the results came in. I also helped edit and rewrite the apology letter that was posted after the event. The reason why I only released this now is simple -- I am an idiot. I was hurt by what happened during the aftermath and couldn't get myself to strike the iron while it was still hot. Perhaps the advantage to this though is that right now, the information I have may be assessed with clearer minds. This post was not made to directly refute most of CheekyDuck's allegations, including those against Amanda. In fact, I don't know much about the financial stuff and had nothing to do with it. I'm just taking this opportunity to finally put out the screenshots that I had been sitting on for so long. After this has been posted, I've done my part. Why Now?As early as March 25 of this year, we heard a rumor about Gus wanting to start something again and had brought in those close to him during the whole PPSL thing (seems like they're good friends). I didn't think that the gossip was true, but I had prepared to compile this stuff since then. Lo and behold, something was posted, and I took the chance. Derek "Dox" Reball, the organizer of the Australian qualifiers for the event and now the manager of Team Nv (Moonglade's team), recently posted a blog entry regarding his thoughts on people who like to jump the shark in eSports, and had mentioned about "a large number of ambitious eSports enthusiasts who popped up in 2011... decide they want to emulate the success of Evil Geniuses or Major League Gaming". This must have triggered CheekyDuck to want to interview him live on Twitch to address his "lies". Seems that nothing really came out of it, so she started this thread. I got the link through Amanda, who doesn't want to say anything since she's still quite traumatized from what happened in 2011. + Show Spoiler +My Conversation with DoxFor those who watched the CSN interview with Dox after PPSL, perhaps you remember the middle portion of that video wherein he apologized to someone working for Gus at that time who was "blunt and aggressive". That guy was me, and that apology came after I posted screenshots of my Skype conversations with Dox in his blog entry about his dealings with the PPSL, where he also mentioned me as Gus' accomplice. I was just doing my job. + Show Spoiler +But here's the kicker. At the same time when that conversation was taking place, I was talking to Gus in Google about the Liquipedia article for the event. I was trying to talk some sense into him on being diplomatic, while he was angry about some Aussie "stealing our thunder". In fact, this was the reason why I then contacted Dox through Skype. + Show Spoiler +I was supposed to write about the event on Liquipedia, but someone else already did on Dox's behalf. Gus must have taken this as a slight and I had to talk some sense to him about it. Lucky that I was able to take those screenshots while our Gmail accounts were still active, because they did get deleted days after the event. + Show Spoiler +Dealing with an angry Gus in the early morning through chat about that Liquipedia entry was quite surreal. I understand why he'd be so angry, but that should never be a part of any business decision, no matter what. During the EventAt the day of the event, Gus hit me up to talk about the players from Team Cube (from Cebu) who weren't attending due to not being able to book flights. Since it's already the day of the event, that wouldn't really be possible. When he gave up on the idea, he left me instructions then said that he was going back to his house because he was lacking sleep. + Show Spoiler +Unfortunately, this ill-advised act of macromanaging meant that he was absent when the Internet connection we had on-site, courtesy of Globe Telecom, was not giving us the bandwidth we needed. This started a chain reaction that derailed the whole event. When we were having the connection troubles, I was trying to reach Gus through my cellphone, but he wasn't answering. By around 2PM, he finally picked up and I told him about what's going on. It took some time before he got back, most likely because he lived in Paranaque, which is kind of far from the venue. + Show Spoiler +Soon enough, the computers were crashing and unable to play StarCraft II. It turns out, from what I heard, that each computer had two sets of video drivers in them, both for Nvidia and ATi. Since we were using Nvidia cards, courtesy of sponsorship, we had to uninstall the other drivers. But when this was figured out, it was already quite late and a good number of the players were sent to an Internet cafe, which was also in Paranaque (maybe because Gus has connections there), to play out the rest of the matches. That's the only information I have regarding that. Matchfixing AllegationsThis is a special section since I have something to say about the whole matchfixing thing. The truth is that there was no matchfixing; it was actually my fault. This is how it happened. On the second day of the event (November 8, 2011), I woke up at around 7AM and checked my Facebook for updates. I noticed that there was a bracket posted containing the names of the players who had qualified from group play. I immediately thought that they must have already drawn the names for it, so I thought that in order to save me some time, I'll just enter that in Liquipedia. Once I finished, I got prepared and left for the event. When I arrived at the venue, Eins Rojas (one of the crewmembers) asked me about the bracket on Liquipedia I posted and urged me to delete them as soon as possible because it wasn't the real one at all. What I saw on Facebook must've been a sample. The brackets were later drawn by a Korean, most likely one of the managers (maybe from StarTale, since it wasn't oGsTheWind). The AZK players being spread out in the brackets and the "original" having them against each other is merely a coincidence. There was no matchfixing; it was just me being an overdiligent idiot. When the Event FinishedAfter Tastosis left for the airport, MarineKing was awarded with the first place prize, and most of the live audience had left, we were called backstage to be informed by Gus that due to sponsors pulling out, we weren't going to be paid. During the afterevent "party", I asked Gus about how much he was going to pay me. He told me that I was to be given PhP5,000 ($120) for my efforts, and I was actually fine with that since I'm just happy to be paid. In fact, I even told him that if he were to give me a Razer keyboard, I'd consider that as payment. I'm really easy to please. Of course, I never got that at all once the financial fallout reared its ugly head. There was the whole Amanda and Clive situation with the threat of imprisonment, which was quite frightening. Amanda was and still is a quivering mess because of it and will never provide a rebuttal to CheekyDuck's allegations because she's just that traumatized. This is not a call for sympathy; in fact, it just states that we're no real threat to them at this point. They want nothing to do about the whole thing, and I'm acting on my own volition. ConclusionI gain absolutely nothing from posting this at all (actually, it's a waste of my time). However, upon being given the opportunity to put up all of the stuff that has been sitting in my Dropbox account for over 17 months has been too good to pass up. This attempt to salvage Gus' reputation is valiant, but quite misguided. He had his faults, and the sponsors and other crewmembers had theirs as well. The bottom line is that in terms of the event itself, we blew it. The financial fallout though is out of the hands of the crewmembers since most of us never had anything to do with the money. I can't give any concrete judgement on that since I haven't been educated about the financial situation during that time. Maybe the whole "silent hero" thing is built upon him having brought to us Filipino StarCraft enthusiasts a chance to meet some of our heroes in the flesh and watch them do what they do best. Alright then, I guess we can give props to him for that somehow. But him being a hero? I don't think so. It would have been better if the IGN Pro League never had to go through that mishap at all, even if we never have had that experience if that was the case. We could have been spared from all that drama. No one needed that at all. My Thoughts on GusFirst of all, I had no personal loyalties to Gus. I got on the boat when I answered his call for a writer in the StarcraftPH Facebook group. I'm a freelance writer by trade, so I joined in for the experience and the potential pay. I had started playing StarCraft II on January 2011 and perhaps it was just me being in the right place at the right time. I do have to say that Gus had a talent for getting people to join his cause. He did have some tricks in his sleeve to keep them hooked as well, like name-dropping and other persuasion tactics. Those tactics aren't necessarily bad per se, since they're employed in sales and marketing, and they did work for the purpose of getting the whole PPSL thing going back then. However, what does stick in everyone's craw is how he managed the people under his wing and how he makes decisions based on emotional impulse. Perhaps he was getting overwhelmed by everything going on around him, but that's exactly what he wasn't supposed to do in that scenario in the first place. As far as allegations go, most of the ones involving Gus' hot head are pretty much true -- he does let his temper and stress get the best of him when it comes to important decisions. As far as CheekyDuck's testimony of Gus having to sell his computer and scraping by to feed his family goes, we don't know anything about that, and we can't really be expected to believe it without any concrete evidence. That attempt to grab our sympathy, as well as calling Gus a "silent hero", makes me scratch my head. Anyone actually falling for this? In the end, I harbor no lingering ill will towards Mr. Gus Ledesma. I wish him luck to his future endeavors. However, it must be said that when it comes to any eSports-related activities, no one should make it easy for him at all. Gus, please just go do something else. === EDIT: Grammatical corrections. It's a terrible situation, where many people in this event were left unpaid and out of pocket! I can assure you that when i talk to Gus his time has always been limited, the little phone icon comes up when he fb. (meaning no computer) And i also want to say i am sorry for my choice of words. My intention was not to wash away all blame, as honestly he ran an event, and it failed. But he is not a monster. I can say that i don't believe Gus feels he is not to blame either, i don't believe he would shoulder the blame if he didn't think he let people down. But it's good you bought this information forward. I can ask gus to address it, but from my understanding with this situation Gus was furious that Dox was stealing the lime light and taking credit for someones hard work, it is my opinion that i think he believed he was doing this intentionally. i don't believe you are stupid, you came forward and corrected dox with his miss-information about you, and its obvious from this that you approached dox diplomatically in a very tense situation (with Gus being stressed and angry). In regards to Gus being absent, i know that he was also working full time and didn't sleep for 3 days beforehand. (as clive would pick him up from work and he would leave after dinner)again, i am sorry if my heading has caused offense, i should have considered more the people who were also effected financially. I hope that this is only a reflection on my bad choice of words to have a catchy title, rather than a reflection of how Gus views himself. Because after talking to him, i know thats not true. but in regards to Amanda: there is money missing.
No, just no.
The dirtbag was given a job of managing an esports event. On the first day he went missing, and everyone who worked there reported that when he was around he didn't do shit, except for make some bullshit apology speech.
I don't think that this 'clear's his name, until the rest of the community members respond to this, because a lot of reputable members of the community dealt with this guy and they all have the same thing to say about him. Torch, thegunrun, Dox, Rossi, YJ, IPL staff, volunteers at his event, his own team members and managers.
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wow, at first I was like " this is a real eye opener" but the more I read the more I was confused. Then I thought for a moment " is there going to be PPSL 2, and this is a publicity stunt?"
Also, from watching Cheekyduck streams in 2011, her op seems out of character, maybe the whole story is not being told, or other things are effecting why this post was made in the first place.
At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if Gus hacked Cheekduck's account to make the op and slander everyones name lol. Quite the drama we have here in esports.
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I'm kinda lost. What's the main point of this thread again? This better not be some kind of hype for PPSL2.
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Well quite a long read and I still don't quite get it as it can be confusing and should rather be documented better (though this is a forum so how can it be better right?). I recall hearing this drama the first time and after that thinking about Gus just made me angry and after reading this I feel sorry for him and I don't know who is right or wrong.
In my opinion, if I was in Gus shoes I would lawyer up and sue the crap out of Amanda and possibly Yoon for damaging his business (team azk is a business right).
Just deal this matter in court fair and square (or dodgy ways), do what my parents did to people that gave them crap, sue the cra out em till they are bankrupt... And do it again to make sure they don't mess with you again... But I guess you got to be a millionaire to do that.. Since even if you lose you make them spend money on lawyers, just keep making them spend money on lawyers until they out on the street.
Ps: wouldn't it be better to get moon glade to come into this forum and give his testimony on what happened on his side.
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On April 16 2013 00:27 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 23:44 17Sphynx17 wrote:
Well, disregarding facts of whether Gus should have flown and paid for accomodation of participants outside Manila, I think cheekyduck misunderstands a few things.
I think the 1k is in php, not usd. She was pertaining to local flights from Cebu to Manila and normally, they to charge on top of the flight payments. 1k php is not outside reasonable here in the Philippines. If you "book it yourself online" the service fee will drop to around 200 to 300php, if its with Cebu Pacific (that's for online), 500php via phone if I am not mistaken. This is approximate mind you. You can always check the breakdown of their ticket price before actually paying for it with the credit card.
Again, the additional payment for hotels, that's for incidentals right? Because I highly doubt anyone in their right mind would think he would need to have a guarantee deposit of 1000usd in a hotel in Manila even if he stayed long?
I also don't get what math she is pertaining to? Is it just the conversion rate of php to 1 usd? Would have been nice if she managed to see the "math" to create an excel spreadsheet and actually display a table in the spoiler for it to make sense.
I am not on the side of anyone, be it Gus or Amanda. But the jail time, we from the Phils already stated in the forums back then that there is no jail time in our country for loans. It would basically be a civil case, as it is a debt. It is not estafa/graft.
At any rate, I don't think there really is much in the sense of enlightening facts that have come up (yet) even with this post. I also think the stream cheating accusation is kind of a stretch. Why even put it? Dox didn't even mention it at any point, nor did anyone else part of the Australia qualifiers with whom that fact would matter most.
My two cents. not all information is here, as i posted what i thought was most important.
As i was reading through the OP, i couldn't help but feel like i was reading only a portion of the story. And that post confirms it. You have purposely left out information... Why? Red flag right there.
The argument you have made is scattered. Calling Gus a hero is a joke. Claiming Amanda has taken thousands of dollars with this "evidence" is also a joke. You're entire post and conversations are incredibly over dramatic. "it may be the most important conversation of your life"...
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On April 16 2013 05:52 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 00:27 -CheekyDuck- wrote:On April 15 2013 23:44 17Sphynx17 wrote:
Well, disregarding facts of whether Gus should have flown and paid for accomodation of participants outside Manila, I think cheekyduck misunderstands a few things.
I think the 1k is in php, not usd. She was pertaining to local flights from Cebu to Manila and normally, they to charge on top of the flight payments. 1k php is not outside reasonable here in the Philippines. If you "book it yourself online" the service fee will drop to around 200 to 300php, if its with Cebu Pacific (that's for online), 500php via phone if I am not mistaken. This is approximate mind you. You can always check the breakdown of their ticket price before actually paying for it with the credit card.
Again, the additional payment for hotels, that's for incidentals right? Because I highly doubt anyone in their right mind would think he would need to have a guarantee deposit of 1000usd in a hotel in Manila even if he stayed long?
I also don't get what math she is pertaining to? Is it just the conversion rate of php to 1 usd? Would have been nice if she managed to see the "math" to create an excel spreadsheet and actually display a table in the spoiler for it to make sense.
I am not on the side of anyone, be it Gus or Amanda. But the jail time, we from the Phils already stated in the forums back then that there is no jail time in our country for loans. It would basically be a civil case, as it is a debt. It is not estafa/graft.
At any rate, I don't think there really is much in the sense of enlightening facts that have come up (yet) even with this post. I also think the stream cheating accusation is kind of a stretch. Why even put it? Dox didn't even mention it at any point, nor did anyone else part of the Australia qualifiers with whom that fact would matter most.
My two cents. not all information is here, as i posted what i thought was most important. As i was reading through the OP, i couldn't help but feel like i was reading only a portion of the story. And that post confirms it. You have purposely left out information... Why? Red flag right there. The argument you have made is scattered. Calling Gus a hero is a joke. Claiming Amanda has taken thousands of dollars with this "evidence" is also a joke. You're entire post and conversations are incredibly over dramatic. "it may be the most important conversation of your life"...
The more a read, the more I felt like I was being pulled into a sort of court run by a group of catty high school girls. I don't really get this point of this thread beyond them trying to defend a friend on the internet.
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just to provide my personal thoughts on Gus. It's very simple, he just wants to make some new events in Paranaque (south part of the national capital region in the PH). In order to do so, he is "indirectly" asking cheeky to help him out to clear his name.
heard he tried asking for support from a local distributor here in manila, trying to earn some dough making new events. lol
Don't bash too much on cheeks, she's just being manipulated by the most hated man in SC 2 e-sports.
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On April 16 2013 05:01 lisward wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 01:13 -CheekyDuck- wrote:On April 16 2013 00:11 avoiderdragon wrote:Since this issue has been raised again for some reason, don't mind me while I leave here some of the stuff that I wasn't able to post a year and a half ago (because I was stupid). IntroductionFirst of all, my name is Sonny Go and I was the content manager for Team AZK when the IPL 4 Pacific Qualifiers were being organized. I basically did most of the copywriting for the event, posting them on Team Liquid and SC2SEA, as well as Liquipedia. I was also updating the social media accounts and Liquipedia entry as the results came in. I also helped edit and rewrite the apology letter that was posted after the event. The reason why I only released this now is simple -- I am an idiot. I was hurt by what happened during the aftermath and couldn't get myself to strike the iron while it was still hot. Perhaps the advantage to this though is that right now, the information I have may be assessed with clearer minds. This post was not made to directly refute most of CheekyDuck's allegations, including those against Amanda. In fact, I don't know much about the financial stuff and had nothing to do with it. I'm just taking this opportunity to finally put out the screenshots that I had been sitting on for so long. After this has been posted, I've done my part. Why Now?As early as March 25 of this year, we heard a rumor about Gus wanting to start something again and had brought in those close to him during the whole PPSL thing (seems like they're good friends). I didn't think that the gossip was true, but I had prepared to compile this stuff since then. Lo and behold, something was posted, and I took the chance. Derek "Dox" Reball, the organizer of the Australian qualifiers for the event and now the manager of Team Nv (Moonglade's team), recently posted a blog entry regarding his thoughts on people who like to jump the shark in eSports, and had mentioned about "a large number of ambitious eSports enthusiasts who popped up in 2011... decide they want to emulate the success of Evil Geniuses or Major League Gaming". This must have triggered CheekyDuck to want to interview him live on Twitch to address his "lies". Seems that nothing really came out of it, so she started this thread. I got the link through Amanda, who doesn't want to say anything since she's still quite traumatized from what happened in 2011. + Show Spoiler +My Conversation with DoxFor those who watched the CSN interview with Dox after PPSL, perhaps you remember the middle portion of that video wherein he apologized to someone working for Gus at that time who was "blunt and aggressive". That guy was me, and that apology came after I posted screenshots of my Skype conversations with Dox in his blog entry about his dealings with the PPSL, where he also mentioned me as Gus' accomplice. I was just doing my job. + Show Spoiler +But here's the kicker. At the same time when that conversation was taking place, I was talking to Gus in Google about the Liquipedia article for the event. I was trying to talk some sense into him on being diplomatic, while he was angry about some Aussie "stealing our thunder". In fact, this was the reason why I then contacted Dox through Skype. + Show Spoiler +I was supposed to write about the event on Liquipedia, but someone else already did on Dox's behalf. Gus must have taken this as a slight and I had to talk some sense to him about it. Lucky that I was able to take those screenshots while our Gmail accounts were still active, because they did get deleted days after the event. + Show Spoiler +Dealing with an angry Gus in the early morning through chat about that Liquipedia entry was quite surreal. I understand why he'd be so angry, but that should never be a part of any business decision, no matter what. During the EventAt the day of the event, Gus hit me up to talk about the players from Team Cube (from Cebu) who weren't attending due to not being able to book flights. Since it's already the day of the event, that wouldn't really be possible. When he gave up on the idea, he left me instructions then said that he was going back to his house because he was lacking sleep. + Show Spoiler +Unfortunately, this ill-advised act of macromanaging meant that he was absent when the Internet connection we had on-site, courtesy of Globe Telecom, was not giving us the bandwidth we needed. This started a chain reaction that derailed the whole event. When we were having the connection troubles, I was trying to reach Gus through my cellphone, but he wasn't answering. By around 2PM, he finally picked up and I told him about what's going on. It took some time before he got back, most likely because he lived in Paranaque, which is kind of far from the venue. + Show Spoiler +Soon enough, the computers were crashing and unable to play StarCraft II. It turns out, from what I heard, that each computer had two sets of video drivers in them, both for Nvidia and ATi. Since we were using Nvidia cards, courtesy of sponsorship, we had to uninstall the other drivers. But when this was figured out, it was already quite late and a good number of the players were sent to an Internet cafe, which was also in Paranaque (maybe because Gus has connections there), to play out the rest of the matches. That's the only information I have regarding that. Matchfixing AllegationsThis is a special section since I have something to say about the whole matchfixing thing. The truth is that there was no matchfixing; it was actually my fault. This is how it happened. On the second day of the event (November 8, 2011), I woke up at around 7AM and checked my Facebook for updates. I noticed that there was a bracket posted containing the names of the players who had qualified from group play. I immediately thought that they must have already drawn the names for it, so I thought that in order to save me some time, I'll just enter that in Liquipedia. Once I finished, I got prepared and left for the event. When I arrived at the venue, Eins Rojas (one of the crewmembers) asked me about the bracket on Liquipedia I posted and urged me to delete them as soon as possible because it wasn't the real one at all. What I saw on Facebook must've been a sample. The brackets were later drawn by a Korean, most likely one of the managers (maybe from StarTale, since it wasn't oGsTheWind). The AZK players being spread out in the brackets and the "original" having them against each other is merely a coincidence. There was no matchfixing; it was just me being an overdiligent idiot. When the Event FinishedAfter Tastosis left for the airport, MarineKing was awarded with the first place prize, and most of the live audience had left, we were called backstage to be informed by Gus that due to sponsors pulling out, we weren't going to be paid. During the afterevent "party", I asked Gus about how much he was going to pay me. He told me that I was to be given PhP5,000 ($120) for my efforts, and I was actually fine with that since I'm just happy to be paid. In fact, I even told him that if he were to give me a Razer keyboard, I'd consider that as payment. I'm really easy to please. Of course, I never got that at all once the financial fallout reared its ugly head. There was the whole Amanda and Clive situation with the threat of imprisonment, which was quite frightening. Amanda was and still is a quivering mess because of it and will never provide a rebuttal to CheekyDuck's allegations because she's just that traumatized. This is not a call for sympathy; in fact, it just states that we're no real threat to them at this point. They want nothing to do about the whole thing, and I'm acting on my own volition. ConclusionI gain absolutely nothing from posting this at all (actually, it's a waste of my time). However, upon being given the opportunity to put up all of the stuff that has been sitting in my Dropbox account for over 17 months has been too good to pass up. This attempt to salvage Gus' reputation is valiant, but quite misguided. He had his faults, and the sponsors and other crewmembers had theirs as well. The bottom line is that in terms of the event itself, we blew it. The financial fallout though is out of the hands of the crewmembers since most of us never had anything to do with the money. I can't give any concrete judgement on that since I haven't been educated about the financial situation during that time. Maybe the whole "silent hero" thing is built upon him having brought to us Filipino StarCraft enthusiasts a chance to meet some of our heroes in the flesh and watch them do what they do best. Alright then, I guess we can give props to him for that somehow. But him being a hero? I don't think so. It would have been better if the IGN Pro League never had to go through that mishap at all, even if we never have had that experience if that was the case. We could have been spared from all that drama. No one needed that at all. My Thoughts on GusFirst of all, I had no personal loyalties to Gus. I got on the boat when I answered his call for a writer in the StarcraftPH Facebook group. I'm a freelance writer by trade, so I joined in for the experience and the potential pay. I had started playing StarCraft II on January 2011 and perhaps it was just me being in the right place at the right time. I do have to say that Gus had a talent for getting people to join his cause. He did have some tricks in his sleeve to keep them hooked as well, like name-dropping and other persuasion tactics. Those tactics aren't necessarily bad per se, since they're employed in sales and marketing, and they did work for the purpose of getting the whole PPSL thing going back then. However, what does stick in everyone's craw is how he managed the people under his wing and how he makes decisions based on emotional impulse. Perhaps he was getting overwhelmed by everything going on around him, but that's exactly what he wasn't supposed to do in that scenario in the first place. As far as allegations go, most of the ones involving Gus' hot head are pretty much true -- he does let his temper and stress get the best of him when it comes to important decisions. As far as CheekyDuck's testimony of Gus having to sell his computer and scraping by to feed his family goes, we don't know anything about that, and we can't really be expected to believe it without any concrete evidence. That attempt to grab our sympathy, as well as calling Gus a "silent hero", makes me scratch my head. Anyone actually falling for this? In the end, I harbor no lingering ill will towards Mr. Gus Ledesma. I wish him luck to his future endeavors. However, it must be said that when it comes to any eSports-related activities, no one should make it easy for him at all. Gus, please just go do something else. === EDIT: Grammatical corrections. It's a terrible situation, where many people in this event were left unpaid and out of pocket! I can assure you that when i talk to Gus his time has always been limited, the little phone icon comes up when he fb. (meaning no computer) And i also want to say i am sorry for my choice of words. My intention was not to wash away all blame, as honestly he ran an event, and it failed. But he is not a monster. I can say that i don't believe Gus feels he is not to blame either, i don't believe he would shoulder the blame if he didn't think he let people down. But it's good you bought this information forward. I can ask gus to address it, but from my understanding with this situation Gus was furious that Dox was stealing the lime light and taking credit for someones hard work, it is my opinion that i think he believed he was doing this intentionally. i don't believe you are stupid, you came forward and corrected dox with his miss-information about you, and its obvious from this that you approached dox diplomatically in a very tense situation (with Gus being stressed and angry). In regards to Gus being absent, i know that he was also working full time and didn't sleep for 3 days beforehand. (as clive would pick him up from work and he would leave after dinner)again, i am sorry if my heading has caused offense, i should have considered more the people who were also effected financially. I hope that this is only a reflection on my bad choice of words to have a catchy title, rather than a reflection of how Gus views himself. Because after talking to him, i know thats not true. but in regards to Amanda: there is money missing. No, just no. The dirtbag was given a job of managing an esports event. On the first day he went missing, and everyone who worked there reported that when he was around he didn't do shit, except for make some bullshit apology speech. I don't think that this 'clear's his name, until the rest of the community members respond to this, because a lot of reputable members of the community dealt with this guy and they all have the same thing to say about him. Torch, thegunrun, Dox, Rossi, YJ, IPL staff, volunteers at his event, his own team members and managers.
Well this is why we don't take the laws I to our own hands. We only assumed what happened and tried to guess it by our own logic to make sense of it. We need to clarify facts over opinion. For example Gus was not at the event on day 1, not Gus was not at the event on day there he must be a thief and Gus did not pay for flights instead of players could not pay for hotel so there probe Gus took the money and ran away.
Some arguments made by duck is also weak, like having a hotmail and yahoo accounts for a business. Though it is unprofessional to do something like that it still plausible to operate a business with the generic tag like I do.
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On April 15 2013 21:12 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Alex Conn of IGN• PPSL was never waiting for money from us. Involvement in the event was limited to providing money to support the event. • Providing a streaming channel. • Support the event by taking its winner to IPL 4. • The only casters we were aware of going into this event was Tastosis. • We do not feel confident that the PPSL can present a watchable product. As such, we have taken away their streaming privileges from our channel. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=283544
I debated actually responding to this entire post, but I no longer have access to my old work emails and so I don't have what I would need to properly do that. However, considering my name is listed under the False Statements category, I wanted to briefly address what was written above because, honestly, I'm a little unhappy about it and in case someone finds this through a random google search, I'd like to have something in defense posted. Obviously I can only speak for what I knew at the time and it's been a while, so my memory is hazy.
Through everything I did while working for the IPL, I always tried to do honestly and fairly, especially when it came to communicating with the community. Everything I said in relation to the PPSL was accurate to the best of my knowledge. I'm not saying that there might be some facts that I might have forgotten or not noticed from a skype conversation or long email chain. I would freely admit that I made a mistake if I could remember any or check my old emails chains to see if I actually did make a mistake when communicating with the community. I even mentioned this in the post you linked: "Edit: My apologies in advance if any of this is factually incorrect, this post was made based of the information we received from the community, messages with people at the venue and from what we observed from the event last night."
I resent your statement that I purposefully lied and misrepresented facts to the community and I am confident that those who know me or remember how I dealt with the community will see through this misrepresentation of both myself and my work with the community.
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On April 16 2013 06:14 SunDevil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 21:12 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Alex Conn of IGN• PPSL was never waiting for money from us. Involvement in the event was limited to providing money to support the event. • Providing a streaming channel. • Support the event by taking its winner to IPL 4. • The only casters we were aware of going into this event was Tastosis. • We do not feel confident that the PPSL can present a watchable product. As such, we have taken away their streaming privileges from our channel. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=283544 I debated actually responding to this entire post, but I no longer have access to my old work emails and so I don't have what I would need to properly do that. However, considering my name is listed under the False Statements category, I wanted to briefly address what was written above because, honestly, I'm a little unhappy about it and in case someone finds this through a random google search, I'd like to have something in defense posted. Obviously I can only speak for what I knew at the time and it's been a while, so my memory is hazy. Through everything I did while working for the IPL, I always tried to do honestly and fairly, especially when it came to communicating with the community. Everything I said in relation to the PPSL was accurate to the best of my knowledge. I'm not saying that there might be some facts that I might have forgotten or not noticed from a skype conversation or long email chain. I would freely admit that I made a mistake if I could remember any or check my old emails chains to see if I actually did make a mistake when communicating with the community. I even mentioned this in the post you linked: "Edit: My apologies in advance if any of this is factually incorrect, this post was made based of the information we received from the community, messages with people at the venue and from what we observed from the event last night." I resent your statement that I purposefully lied and misrepresented facts to the community and I am confident that those who know me or remember how I dealt with the community will see through this misrepresentation of both myself and my work with the community.
Did you know beforehand that Amanda was not going to jail regardless? Yes or No
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On April 16 2013 06:19 FoxerGames wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 06:14 SunDevil wrote:On April 15 2013 21:12 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Alex Conn of IGN• PPSL was never waiting for money from us. Involvement in the event was limited to providing money to support the event. • Providing a streaming channel. • Support the event by taking its winner to IPL 4. • The only casters we were aware of going into this event was Tastosis. • We do not feel confident that the PPSL can present a watchable product. As such, we have taken away their streaming privileges from our channel. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=283544 I debated actually responding to this entire post, but I no longer have access to my old work emails and so I don't have what I would need to properly do that. However, considering my name is listed under the False Statements category, I wanted to briefly address what was written above because, honestly, I'm a little unhappy about it and in case someone finds this through a random google search, I'd like to have something in defense posted. Obviously I can only speak for what I knew at the time and it's been a while, so my memory is hazy. Through everything I did while working for the IPL, I always tried to do honestly and fairly, especially when it came to communicating with the community. Everything I said in relation to the PPSL was accurate to the best of my knowledge. I'm not saying that there might be some facts that I might have forgotten or not noticed from a skype conversation or long email chain. I would freely admit that I made a mistake if I could remember any or check my old emails chains to see if I actually did make a mistake when communicating with the community. I even mentioned this in the post you linked: "Edit: My apologies in advance if any of this is factually incorrect, this post was made based of the information we received from the community, messages with people at the venue and from what we observed from the event last night." I resent your statement that I purposefully lied and misrepresented facts to the community and I am confident that those who know me or remember how I dealt with the community will see through this misrepresentation of both myself and my work with the community. Did you know beforehand that Amanda was not going to jail regardless? Yes or No
It was my understanding that Amanda could go to jail. As I said in the charity stream thread: "The total amount of this debt that is related to travel is $12,000. If this does not get paid by November 21st, her business (the travel agency) will have to stop operations until the amount is paid, plus penalties. They will not be allowed to make reservations and create tickets and will be in essence, shut down. In addition it opens up the possibility that Amanda will be arrested or sued." Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285511
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United States33128 Posts
On April 16 2013 06:25 SunDevil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 06:19 FoxerGames wrote:On April 16 2013 06:14 SunDevil wrote:On April 15 2013 21:12 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Alex Conn of IGN• PPSL was never waiting for money from us. Involvement in the event was limited to providing money to support the event. • Providing a streaming channel. • Support the event by taking its winner to IPL 4. • The only casters we were aware of going into this event was Tastosis. • We do not feel confident that the PPSL can present a watchable product. As such, we have taken away their streaming privileges from our channel. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=283544 I debated actually responding to this entire post, but I no longer have access to my old work emails and so I don't have what I would need to properly do that. However, considering my name is listed under the False Statements category, I wanted to briefly address what was written above because, honestly, I'm a little unhappy about it and in case someone finds this through a random google search, I'd like to have something in defense posted. Obviously I can only speak for what I knew at the time and it's been a while, so my memory is hazy. Through everything I did while working for the IPL, I always tried to do honestly and fairly, especially when it came to communicating with the community. Everything I said in relation to the PPSL was accurate to the best of my knowledge. I'm not saying that there might be some facts that I might have forgotten or not noticed from a skype conversation or long email chain. I would freely admit that I made a mistake if I could remember any or check my old emails chains to see if I actually did make a mistake when communicating with the community. I even mentioned this in the post you linked: "Edit: My apologies in advance if any of this is factually incorrect, this post was made based of the information we received from the community, messages with people at the venue and from what we observed from the event last night." I resent your statement that I purposefully lied and misrepresented facts to the community and I am confident that those who know me or remember how I dealt with the community will see through this misrepresentation of both myself and my work with the community. Did you know beforehand that Amanda was not going to jail regardless? Yes or No It was my understanding that Amanda could go to jail. As I said in the charity stream thread: "The total amount of this debt that is related to travel is $12,000. If this does not get paid by November 21st, her business (the travel agency) will have to stop operations until the amount is paid, plus penalties. They will not be allowed to make reservations and create tickets and will be in essence, shut down. In addition it opens up the possibility that Amanda will be arrested or sued." Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285511
the mail is dated 11/11/11, the post is dated 15/11/11, so you would claim that you were left out of that loop entirely, or misled to believe she could be jailed by those who did have the knowledge?
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On April 16 2013 06:29 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 06:25 SunDevil wrote:On April 16 2013 06:19 FoxerGames wrote:On April 16 2013 06:14 SunDevil wrote:On April 15 2013 21:12 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Alex Conn of IGN• PPSL was never waiting for money from us. Involvement in the event was limited to providing money to support the event. • Providing a streaming channel. • Support the event by taking its winner to IPL 4. • The only casters we were aware of going into this event was Tastosis. • We do not feel confident that the PPSL can present a watchable product. As such, we have taken away their streaming privileges from our channel. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=283544 I debated actually responding to this entire post, but I no longer have access to my old work emails and so I don't have what I would need to properly do that. However, considering my name is listed under the False Statements category, I wanted to briefly address what was written above because, honestly, I'm a little unhappy about it and in case someone finds this through a random google search, I'd like to have something in defense posted. Obviously I can only speak for what I knew at the time and it's been a while, so my memory is hazy. Through everything I did while working for the IPL, I always tried to do honestly and fairly, especially when it came to communicating with the community. Everything I said in relation to the PPSL was accurate to the best of my knowledge. I'm not saying that there might be some facts that I might have forgotten or not noticed from a skype conversation or long email chain. I would freely admit that I made a mistake if I could remember any or check my old emails chains to see if I actually did make a mistake when communicating with the community. I even mentioned this in the post you linked: "Edit: My apologies in advance if any of this is factually incorrect, this post was made based of the information we received from the community, messages with people at the venue and from what we observed from the event last night." I resent your statement that I purposefully lied and misrepresented facts to the community and I am confident that those who know me or remember how I dealt with the community will see through this misrepresentation of both myself and my work with the community. Did you know beforehand that Amanda was not going to jail regardless? Yes or No It was my understanding that Amanda could go to jail. As I said in the charity stream thread: "The total amount of this debt that is related to travel is $12,000. If this does not get paid by November 21st, her business (the travel agency) will have to stop operations until the amount is paid, plus penalties. They will not be allowed to make reservations and create tickets and will be in essence, shut down. In addition it opens up the possibility that Amanda will be arrested or sued." Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285511 the mail is dated 11/11/11, the post is dated 15/11/11, so you would claim that you were left out of that loop entirely, or misled to believe she could be jailed by those who did have the knowledge?
I think if you look at the email that she sent to David (which I have no recollection of if I ended up getting a forwarded copy of or not), it just says she couldn't go to jail for the collectibles, but could be held accountable for the interest. It seems reasonable to infer that could mean that she could go to jail still for a lesser amount of time for the money due on the interest or something similar. I don't know the legal system of the Philippines though. And again I in the post I made I said it could open the possibility of her being arrested or sued.
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Well I am glad we finally get the truth. It is disappointing to see so many lies and such deception.
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On April 16 2013 01:34 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
Amanda has sent a few invoices.
The invoicing
this is amanda's last offical invoice (her numbers)
you would need to do the math (from the start) to start seeing the numbers don't add up
her exchange rate is 42.85 the usd final price doesn't match (continually done over invoices)
There is a difference between the email and the table - the email lists 19 people, the tables lists 20 (I think Carn is the odd one out). If you add up all the numbers, it works out fine (if not, please point it out in detail).
The receipts
total for Amanda was 230 000PHP based on the receipts
as 215 000 + 15 000 php from gus was paid.
with exchange of 42.85
$5367.56 given directly
The total of the receipts shown is 70466 + 60076 + 8400 + 26000 + 14000 = 178,942 PHP ($4176 USD), plus the Metrobank slip if you add that in ($4526 total). There are no other receipts shown as evidence to suggest she recieve anything more. (Again, please point it out if i missed it)
Amanda's claim
my issue with this is that why did she manually remove the fare information from the tickets?
and why are the invoices submitted in an email, without any proof of money owing (letter head, tax breakdown, ref numbers)
the excuses for not booking tickets after the first "deposit is paid" is many
- bookings closed
- 1000 excess
i have talked to AA and when you book with an agency 14 people you get group rates, they said there is no way they wouldn't give a group price.
no one will ever know what these tickets cost, i can only compare them to market information.
but lets just say we in this instance believe her invoices to be true:
Therefore total costs were $11,691.94
She was asking for $12,172.27
She billed IGN / IPL, but the total money she received that i know of was $17,539.83 (at an exchange rate of 42.85 Php to the USD)
but then keep in mind she got 230 000 as per the receipts.
Her original invoice was for $16,706 USD. You've posted receipts from Team AZK adding up to $4526 USD or just under 200,000 PHP. There is still approx. $12,000 unaccounted for, which is what Amanda claimed. She receieved a check for $12,000 from IGN. The total of everything on the receipts listed reflects the number that was originally invoiced.
So to try clear a few things up, please point out
- how you arrived at the total costs of $11.691.94
- where she received $17.539.83 from IGN
- where she received 230,000 as per her receipts.
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On April 16 2013 07:01 paddyz wrote:
Well I am glad we finally get the truth. It is disappointing to see so many lies and such deception.
But what IF this is ALSO a lie?
What if two adults TOLD U 2 DIFFERENT THINGS.. WHO WOULD YOU BELIEVE?
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On April 16 2013 02:42 cArn- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 00:18 pdd wrote:
- two extra tickets were purchased from Korea (totalling an extra $62,647). Counting the number of people who flew in from Korea, the email only lists 16 while the invoice lists 18 people (the names of the people who flew changed a bit... ie Carn wasn't in the email, but was in the invoice, but he replaced someone else).
I wasn't a replacement I was the 2nd player to qualify for this event after Sen ... I think this may be due to the fact that my team purchased the tickets first and then got refunded by Gus (or something along those lines, it's been a while I don't remember exactly how we dealt with ticket, I just know my team and Gus had an agreement on this). I just remember we weren't sure how to do this since I was going to PPSL right after ESWC, so we were thinking whether I come from Paris or stop by Korea before going, my name missing in the email is probably because it wasn't decided yet.
That's beside the point. We have a thread claiming that Amanda forged numbers and gained in excess of $5k. Until now, she has yet to reconcile the VALID issues that a lot of us who bothered to do the numbers are saying, that we see almost NOTHING wrong with the calculations. One of her claims is that Amanda bumped the two invoices from PHP650+k to PHP715k, which as you said, is because there were more people who flew in the second invoice
I'm still struggling to wonder why nothing has been done to edit the post, as a lot of people who didn't bother to do the maths are blindly siding with her and calling a lot of people frauds (unjustly so).
So far these are Cheekyduck's claims regarding the fraud, all of which do not prove anything regarding Amanda:
1. bumping the numbers in invoice from 650k+ to 715k
(this has been shown to be because there are additional people in 2nd invoice)
2. Gus paid PHP230,000 to Amanda as downpayment, only PHP215,000 is acknowledged by Amanda, a difference of PHP15,000 (~$350)
(the receipts DO not even add up to PHP200k, for the record)
3. IGN gave her ~$12.2k rather than ~$11.7k
(we don't have proof that Amanda misused the $500 which is unaccounted for)
4. Amanda calculated individual fares wrongly
(this has only been proven for Rachel's fare, and the difference is PHP21 or $0.46, an acceptable clerical error if you ask me).
5. Amanda bumped fares from Korea from around $450 to $731 and Australian tickets from 400-900 to $1402.
(Once again, this is another unproven claim)
6. The rate of 42.85 was dodgy at that time
(As Zocat pointed out rates in November and October were all hovering around the 43 mark, making this suggestion untrue).
FUCK all the other issues in this thread. If Cheekyduck can't prove these points above, then there's no reason for this thread to exist other than to point out that there had been changes in the amount IGN promised, leading to the financial issues at the end of the event.
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[u]I was the Business Former Development Manager for Team AZK.[/u] I paid for the down payment to secure the event location and many other costly expenses such as some of the more expensive hotel (because Gus said called me to the states from the Philippines to provide extra finances cos the Team was broke. I was also the one who gave Gus Ledesma, whom at the time had only visions of local and C-Class level tournaments while i had the idea of creating a premier gaming team and International Gaming and Electronic expo in based in the emerging market that is the Philippines.
I would rather make myself anonymous as i was never interested in fame or the limelight but merely believed that the Philippines was a great place to create an World Class E-Sports Industry and Electrpmoc Entertainment Expo because of the fact of its tourism, low cost of products and expenses, strategically located between the east and west etc.. I was also integral in all the sponsorships granted to Team AZK and the only person to travel in the Team around Asia (under my own expense) to try to get sponsors internationally before the Team was even recognized internationally. I gave the title of Gus the head/ of Team AZK because he said that he wanted that and that he has alot of experience in that. and he would do a great job. He did well for maybe a a week and went straight downhill from there.
My plan was to build PPSL to a global brand under an umbrella corporation which will eventually become a premiere E-Sports/Electronic expo for Asia. I made the mistake of trusting Gus Ledesma( Whom i met only for 6 months but claimed that he had execellent background and expertise in the local gaming community. I had agreed to entrust Gus (because i did not know anybody in the community and i was just doing it for fun at the moment). As soon as our team finished sponsorship deals i fronted some of the money that will be paid AFTER or later during the event ( My role was to fix business plans, projections, proposals, target markets both raise and invest money into the organization because i strongly believed it was going to be successful, i was horribly wrong) Because of the fact that i wanted to finish my Masters Degree in Business in the United States and as well as take care of my other business, i left about 2-3 months before the event started to finish school .
All Gus needed to do was to use and execute our Business Plan and made sure the event ran smoothly. He had Team Staff help him but his leadership was just not up to par. This did not make him a hero but indeed made him incompetent and negligent. He couldve told me the problems of the event in progress but refused to give speicfic details that made or whole applying our world class Vision while utilizing the cash flow we raised to build and take care of the community, provide an excellent stream and production quality (as explained by David Ting in our meeting in New Jersey , venue, staff salaries, plane tickets, marketing etc.I highly regret leaving the Philippines before the event for the US back to finish college because i had become complacent because of the fact that we have accomplished so much in so little time and we had already made sure that our budget will allow me to recoup my OWN expenses as well as go for PPSL 2 or a Electronic Gaming Festival. Apparently i was wrong and has not matured enough. I did not get back a single cent from any of this and was just left with a pretty good life lesson. I hope no one ever goes through this the hard way. For my self, i have learned how scammers operate and how you can counteract them by doing your necessary DD and research. Also People who got reimbursed by IGN unnecessarily should pay people who actually deserve it.
Moral of the story : Any one man can make a big diffrence in the world.But you have to work 100% on it.
Gus Ledesma- He may be not the coldest beer in the fridge but he was not a monster nor a hero. He was just a guy who tried his best but ended up being really horrible.
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Please note at this point we are talking about $500 over the ORIGINAL amount of debt that was supposedly paid to Amanda by IGN. Also note that Alex said there is additional interest owing on the debt that Amanda could still be prosecuted for. This could even account for the figure being slightly higher than expected.
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On April 16 2013 02:20 Pobbes wrote:
cheeky, you might need more concrete evidence on the Rossi cheating thing. honestly, i sometimes watch streams during tournaments and when it's my turn to play i pause the stream. the name will still be there in the viewer list but the stream isn't on.
Also, from the things i can remember about gus. it was so long ago so i don't know if these are correct:
1. Initially not wanting to accept heLp from non-AZK people. 1-2 weeks before PPSL, there was another event held in Manila and it went off without a hitch. The same people offered help but they were refused. Eventually i think they were allowed to help but in a minor role? i don't remember too well.
2. Gus not wanting profiles of non-AZK people who helped out with the event put in the PPSL website. IIRC he raged when this was proposed.
3. Inviting Jabi and EnDerr to play a showmatch in an AZK tournament, but not allowing them to join said tournament.
4. I don't know if this was during tournament or just a showmatch but he'd PM his players telling him his opponent's moves, units, etc. (I'm pretty sure about this one because my friend used to be AZK and Gus PM'd him during said tourney / showmatch. although i think it was just a showmatch)
5. Leaving Clive to foot the remainder of the hotel bill was not cool. Threatening with a lawyer when approached was even worse.
6. Not sleeping 3 Days prior to the event, but posting pics of him drinking with Tastosis? mmm... you'd think he'd want to sleep when he could instead of spend the night partying.
7. HoNslaught. it was NEVER addressed. the players waited the whole day and nothing happened. poor guys.
There might be more, but i can't remember anymore. Anyway, my point is Gus probably really wanted the event to work. He probably isn't the scam artist we were initially lead to believe, but the guy is a douche. he mismanaged the whole thing and didn't man up to it.
The stream cheating issue was because YYJ told me they did. Because i was hell bent on getting a rematch for mOOnglaDe i called dox, txt'd Gus, but they didn't want the drama. and the timeframe was cutting it too fine already.
at the event i told rossi what YYJ said and that i saw his name in the stream chat, he told that his stream was on mute.
Now YYJ could of just been trying to upset us because it was funny, true or not, this is one of the reasons why Gus was upset with Sea players.
also YYJ skyped my sister stating the same thing, if anyone knows how to get your skype history back.... please let us know!
1. I know there was a rivalry, I know Gus was paranoid that people were out to get him.... well if history is any indicator i think its safe to say that paranoia is somewhat justified.
2. Before the event i know he was upset with the branding, it was mainly that it looked like Dox was running the event. Now since people from sea have posted dox blog in here, when dox does write something it can look innocent and it can look like he is taking credit. (let me know if you want it scanned its at home) i have the original flyer/booklets from AZK-ppsl
even tho he did "rage" about the Wiki (in private) many thank-yous to Dox, other managers and teams were printed.
3. I would need to clarify this.
4. I would need to clarify this. but i have heard that this was a rumor or a claim that was made when he was in an internet cafe, i believe not related to the event.
5. I was at the hotel, Amanda was getting clive worked up. my family offered before gunrun was even there to foot the bill.
Amanda (you can even read her own blog) bought "muscle" she claims he was apparently her uncle that was high up in the police.
I got my sister to tweet "gus is here" hoping to stop the hate online.
amanda got gunrun to pay, gunrun left and then told us not to tell gus "to see what he would do" when he tried to arrange for an extension and change the debt into his name, the hotel manager told him it was paid for.
a lawyer isn't a luxury someone like Gus can afford. He is one of the only friends that stood by Gus and was his bestman at his wedding. from my understanding his friend, i think he is on his way to be a lawyer.
Amanda wanted money, she bought a damn dude with a gun to the hotel! not even in uniform.
6. i was there as well for that photo. the casters were happy, gus was like a zombie that day but smiled for this photo and had a drink from peer pressure. I know what it looks like, but as my family spent the first week with gus, i was in the car when clive dropped him to work in the middle of nowhere. He wasn't out the whole night drinking, he had one or 2 drinks from memory with dinner, spent most of his time on his phone texting.
from what he told me at the time, if the foreigners enjoyed them self they would be back. a lot of money was spent on "entertainment" for the guests.
but i can only tell you what i saw, before and after that photo, was not a man partying, it was a person who was a guide in what can be a scary country.
7. there are airfares that amanda wouldnt purchase. people like myself got money back, and korean managers on the day were reimbursed, yes, sadly with the allocated hon money. Because future sponsorship was being revoked, the event financially no longer possible.
Gus did take the blame and hoped others would "man up" with the other end.
It was miss management from Gus and a very bad decision of him to trust anyone, with or without a contract.
He should not of bowed to the pressures of IPL's event standards. It was too big too fast for ONE man to manage.
he was not the only manager of this event, he was the one that made some really poor decisions because of trust.
at the end of the day, Gus has only let me release this information in hopes that Amanda can give the money back to the people who the money was raised to help. Staff members are still out of pocket and angry.
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On April 16 2013 01:28 Shortizz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2013 21:53 deth wrote:
The major problem I see here is that you're so absolutely sure of yourself, that you start from the position that everything Gus says is true and that everyone else is part of this huge conspiracy to steal money and ruin a guy's life.
You're completely ignoring all compelling evidence put forward from many other community members, and painting a completely biased picture from one side of the equation. No effort whatsoever has been given to balance here.
It's so evident through all your chat logs that you weren't discussing the issues with the people at hand, you were persecuting them.
EDIT2: I'd also point out that accusing Rossi of stream cheating is just as bad, if not worse than half the shit you're defending ledesma from here. ^This. OP's tone is condescending and borderline arrogant(This is your last chance). I graduated with a degree in accounting and some of the screenshots looks perfectly fine to me(Financial ones), the only ones that are shady are the breakdown of the money paid to amanda and breakdown of certain SS of flight payments. If you did abit of googling, you would realise that the exchange rate of 42.85 is actually very fair. You youself said that it was 43-44, so honestly 0.15 isnt that big of a deal. Keep in mind that exchange rates you searched on the internet tend to be better than those offered by banks and money changers. I would agree that Amanda seems to be shady but my opinion on Gus still stands, hes a lazy scum but misappropriated funds. Also, on Rossi stream cheating. Nope, not buying it. I dunno the guy on a personal level but ive been active on SEA for 2-3 years. But im telling you, i dont believe it.
yes but you have US dollars, and the total is in US, why are you paying the bill in php?
the screen shots are her accounting. if you do the math for the usd to php from the start it starts to get funky.
as an accountant would you call that number fluffing?
15000 php is missing in one of the invoices.
but its the constant number fluffing and editing of the tickets. on one ticket a tax is charged for no reason.
look at any flight eTicket, that thing has fare information, like how much the ticket cost.
The exchange rate is a joke, because there is no money to exchange. the bill is in usd paid with usd.
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On April 16 2013 09:50 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 02:20 Pobbes wrote:
cheeky, you might need more concrete evidence on the Rossi cheating thing. honestly, i sometimes watch streams during tournaments and when it's my turn to play i pause the stream. the name will still be there in the viewer list but the stream isn't on.
Also, from the things i can remember about gus. it was so long ago so i don't know if these are correct:
1. Initially not wanting to accept heLp from non-AZK people. 1-2 weeks before PPSL, there was another event held in Manila and it went off without a hitch. The same people offered help but they were refused. Eventually i think they were allowed to help but in a minor role? i don't remember too well.
2. Gus not wanting profiles of non-AZK people who helped out with the event put in the PPSL website. IIRC he raged when this was proposed.
3. Inviting Jabi and EnDerr to play a showmatch in an AZK tournament, but not allowing them to join said tournament.
4. I don't know if this was during tournament or just a showmatch but he'd PM his players telling him his opponent's moves, units, etc. (I'm pretty sure about this one because my friend used to be AZK and Gus PM'd him during said tourney / showmatch. although i think it was just a showmatch)
5. Leaving Clive to foot the remainder of the hotel bill was not cool. Threatening with a lawyer when approached was even worse.
6. Not sleeping 3 Days prior to the event, but posting pics of him drinking with Tastosis? mmm... you'd think he'd want to sleep when he could instead of spend the night partying.
7. HoNslaught. it was NEVER addressed. the players waited the whole day and nothing happened. poor guys.
There might be more, but i can't remember anymore. Anyway, my point is Gus probably really wanted the event to work. He probably isn't the scam artist we were initially lead to believe, but the guy is a douche. he mismanaged the whole thing and didn't man up to it. The stream cheating issue was because YYJ told me they did. Because i was hell bent on getting a rematch for mOOnglaDe i called dox, txt'd Gus, but they didn't want the drama. and the timeframe was cutting it too fine already. at the event i told rossi what YYJ said and that i saw his name in the stream chat, he told that his stream was on mute. Now YYJ could of just been trying to upset us because it was funny, true or not, this is one of the reasons why Gus was upset with Sea players. also YYJ skyped my sister stating the same thing, if anyone knows how to get your skype history back.... please let us know!
would appreciate it if you stopped including me in this with your baseless accusations and misquotes. I'm not sure why you think its okay to make comments against me considering there literally isn't one iota of evidence.
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On April 16 2013 09:50 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
The stream cheating issue was because YYJ told me they did. Because i was hell bent on getting a rematch for mOOnglaDe i called dox, txt'd Gus, but they didn't want the drama. and the timeframe was cutting it too fine already.
at the event i told rossi what YYJ said and that i saw his name in the stream chat, he told that his stream was on mute.
Now YYJ could of just been trying to upset us because it was funny, true or not, this is one of the reasons why Gus was upset with Sea players.
also YYJ skyped my sister stating the same thing, if anyone knows how to get your skype history back.... please let us know!
For christ sake if you have ANY proof of either Rossi or Yoon cheating, please, by all means, post it. Right now you are making accusations that are incredibly defamatory to both with absolutely NOTHING credible to back you. You either don't seem to understand the seriousness of this kind of accusation or you just straight out don't care.
Also for those wondering, at the time of the event Yoon and Rossi were not teammates, neither was under the management of dox, the team Nv had not been conceived yet, and Dox would have no personal gain in some sort of malicious scheming to fuck over other Australian players. If anything Dox and Glade go way back and if there was ANY fucking remote shred of credible evidence of cheating in his tournament presented to him, especially against a person he's interacted with for years, I am more than sure appropriate action would have been taken, as there is absolutely 0 reason why it wouldn't have been.
I'm not touching the rest of the issues raised in this thread with a 10ft pole, but the cheating accusations need to stop unless you have something better than your own personal testimony.
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On April 16 2013 02:23 littlemozart7 wrote:
what about the fundings for all the players accommodation? i only see rachel's and gunrun's accommodation reciepts. those $$$ all been accounted for?
no these are day 1
a lot of people are still out of pocket, a lot of staff members have not been paid.
when you get $5000 from donations from the community like Amanda.
and then people say well her accounting is overpaying her only a couple hundred.
statements like "i didn't make a cent"
"it all went to the agency"
"i didn't get paid"
to what extent do you trust her invoices as being legit?
i can show you my plane tickets, quoted rates in dox's blog of plane tickets.
eg. mine $400 return (group booking sale thing with family) syd to manila
rossi ticket $1402
full retail: apx $800-900
korea full retail return: apx$450
14 players no group discount: $731
on top of that the number are rounded up in a currency conversion.
if you are paying an airline directly in US for a US priced ticket, why are converting to PHP, unless the money will be used in the country?
staff fees per person range in cost. but for the weekend people like Sonny Go are owed apx $140
what ever money was raised should of gone to the staff members it was raised for.
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On April 16 2013 10:23 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
eg. mine $400 return (group booking sale thing with family) syd to manila
rossi ticket $1402
full retail: apx $800-900
korea full retail return: apx$450
14 players no group discount: $731
on top of that the number are rounded up in a currency conversion.
if you are paying an airline directly in US for a US priced ticket, why are converting to PHP, unless the money will be used in the country?
so 2 things...
1. Rossi paid more than 'full retail'. It's obviously not unheard of for this kind of thing to cost more than what you call 'full retail'. Why are you up in arms about the prices booked through a travel agent being more than 'full retail'. It generally does cost more when someone performs a service for you like managing your bookings instead of doing it yourself. At worst you've just said Amanda's business overcharges and Gus went with a far more expensive option than was necessary.
2. You've only provided some invoices, no real proof that the currency was converted.... I don't really understand why you seem to a think a Phillipine business would not do their accounting in PHP. How are you so sure the money was actually paid in PHP?
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On April 16 2013 10:16 Ftrunkz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 09:50 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
The stream cheating issue was because YYJ told me they did. Because i was hell bent on getting a rematch for mOOnglaDe i called dox, txt'd Gus, but they didn't want the drama. and the timeframe was cutting it too fine already.
at the event i told rossi what YYJ said and that i saw his name in the stream chat, he told that his stream was on mute.
Now YYJ could of just been trying to upset us because it was funny, true or not, this is one of the reasons why Gus was upset with Sea players.
also YYJ skyped my sister stating the same thing, if anyone knows how to get your skype history back.... please let us know!
For christ sake if you have ANY proof of either Rossi or Yoon cheating, please, by all means, post it. Right now you are making accusations that are incredibly defamatory to both with absolutely NOTHING credible to back you. You either don't seem to understand the seriousness of this kind of accusation or you just straight out don't care. Also for those wondering, at the time of the event Yoon and Rossi were not teammates, neither was under the management of dox, the team Nv had not been conceived yet, and Dox would have no personal gain in some sort of malicious scheming to fuck over other Australian players. If anything Dox and Glade go way back and if there was ANY fucking remote shred of credible evidence of cheating in his tournament presented to him, especially against a person he's interacted with for years, I am more than sure appropriate action would have been taken, as there is absolutely 0 reason why it wouldn't have been. I'm not touching the rest of the issues raised in this thread with a 10ft pole, but the cheating accusations need to stop unless you have something better than your own personal testimony.
I understand that you are close with NV.
and no i don't know if it happened, even if i could contact skype and get my sisters data.
all a screenshot would prove is that it was said, not that it happened.
i have the screen shot of me discussing it with Gus at the time on skype.
I called dox on skype. without selling more people out, i am not the only one that knew.
Dox gained a lot from this? he got his top sea NV team.
I haven't been a part of the sea scene since my mother passed. As such i have only made one event and no longer travel to events.
I have literally nothing to gain. Many people have lost out by others being selfish, it would be nice if people would just come forward and do the right thing.
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On April 16 2013 10:38 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 10:16 Ftrunkz wrote:On April 16 2013 09:50 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
The stream cheating issue was because YYJ told me they did. Because i was hell bent on getting a rematch for mOOnglaDe i called dox, txt'd Gus, but they didn't want the drama. and the timeframe was cutting it too fine already.
at the event i told rossi what YYJ said and that i saw his name in the stream chat, he told that his stream was on mute.
Now YYJ could of just been trying to upset us because it was funny, true or not, this is one of the reasons why Gus was upset with Sea players.
also YYJ skyped my sister stating the same thing, if anyone knows how to get your skype history back.... please let us know!
For christ sake if you have ANY proof of either Rossi or Yoon cheating, please, by all means, post it. Right now you are making accusations that are incredibly defamatory to both with absolutely NOTHING credible to back you. You either don't seem to understand the seriousness of this kind of accusation or you just straight out don't care. Also for those wondering, at the time of the event Yoon and Rossi were not teammates, neither was under the management of dox, the team Nv had not been conceived yet, and Dox would have no personal gain in some sort of malicious scheming to fuck over other Australian players. If anything Dox and Glade go way back and if there was ANY fucking remote shred of credible evidence of cheating in his tournament presented to him, especially against a person he's interacted with for years, I am more than sure appropriate action would have been taken, as there is absolutely 0 reason why it wouldn't have been. I'm not touching the rest of the issues raised in this thread with a 10ft pole, but the cheating accusations need to stop unless you have something better than your own personal testimony. I understand that you are close with NV. and no i don't know if it happened, even if i could contact skype and get my sisters data. all a screenshot would prove is that it was said, not that it happened. i have the screen shot of me discussing it with Gus at the time on skype. I called dox on skype. without selling more people out, i am not the only one that knew. Dox gained a lot from this? he got his top sea NV team. I haven't been a part of the sea scene since my mother passed. As such i have only made one event and no longer travel to events. I have literally nothing to gain. Many people have lost out by others being selfish, it would be nice if people would just come forward and do the right thing.
What a load of shit, Nv was originally launching with YYJ, Me, Rossi and Pinder, and was not a result of dox magically getting exposure or whatever from PPSL. Far from the truth. FYI dox was floating the idea of making this team with us long before PPSL ever happened.
Andy was a surprise late addition to the team, because he was entertaining another offer at the time.
Why are you continuing to try and drag dox/rossi/yyj's name through the mud? It's beyond ridiculous at this point.
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On April 16 2013 10:00 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
yes but you have US dollars, and the total is in US, why are you paying the bill in php?
Why does it matter? She listed the numbers in both USD and in PHP in her email, and even provided the exchange rate. MULTIPLE people have stated this exchange rate was both correct and fair for the time period. This is a non-issue.
On April 16 2013 10:00 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
the screen shots are her accounting. if you do the math for the usd to php from the start it starts to get funky.
as an accountant would you call that number fluffing?
15000 php is missing in one of the invoices.
Yes we can see the screenshots. MULTIPLE people (including myself) have the calculations and everything adds up pretty much 100%. If you'd like to specifically point out the number fluffing, it would greatly help move the conversation forward.
On April 16 2013 10:00 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
but its the constant number fluffing and editing of the tickets. on one ticket a tax is charged for no reason.
look at any flight eTicket, that thing has fare information, like how much the ticket cost.
So you're basing your accusation on the lack of information? Regardless of whether you think that the price of tickets were fudged, you have no evidence to support this. In fact the actual cost of flights (without tax) are very similar to the numbers Dox posted. Even without tax, the higher range Dox posted are so close to Amanda's number that it's hardly unbelievable.
I'd like to you provide evidence on a few major points of your accusation. If you could post it in an easy to read & understandable format it would be greatly appreciated:
1. Point out exactly where the number fluffing occurred. Post the evidence to support this claim
2. Show exactly where Amanda made "a huge profit", and post the evidence that supports this claim.
3. Point out where she lied, and provide evidence of this.
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On April 16 2013 10:43 deth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 10:38 -CheekyDuck- wrote:On April 16 2013 10:16 Ftrunkz wrote:On April 16 2013 09:50 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
The stream cheating issue was because YYJ told me they did. Because i was hell bent on getting a rematch for mOOnglaDe i called dox, txt'd Gus, but they didn't want the drama. and the timeframe was cutting it too fine already.
at the event i told rossi what YYJ said and that i saw his name in the stream chat, he told that his stream was on mute.
Now YYJ could of just been trying to upset us because it was funny, true or not, this is one of the reasons why Gus was upset with Sea players.
also YYJ skyped my sister stating the same thing, if anyone knows how to get your skype history back.... please let us know!
For christ sake if you have ANY proof of either Rossi or Yoon cheating, please, by all means, post it. Right now you are making accusations that are incredibly defamatory to both with absolutely NOTHING credible to back you. You either don't seem to understand the seriousness of this kind of accusation or you just straight out don't care. Also for those wondering, at the time of the event Yoon and Rossi were not teammates, neither was under the management of dox, the team Nv had not been conceived yet, and Dox would have no personal gain in some sort of malicious scheming to fuck over other Australian players. If anything Dox and Glade go way back and if there was ANY fucking remote shred of credible evidence of cheating in his tournament presented to him, especially against a person he's interacted with for years, I am more than sure appropriate action would have been taken, as there is absolutely 0 reason why it wouldn't have been. I'm not touching the rest of the issues raised in this thread with a 10ft pole, but the cheating accusations need to stop unless you have something better than your own personal testimony. I understand that you are close with NV. and no i don't know if it happened, even if i could contact skype and get my sisters data. all a screenshot would prove is that it was said, not that it happened. i have the screen shot of me discussing it with Gus at the time on skype. I called dox on skype. without selling more people out, i am not the only one that knew. Dox gained a lot from this? he got his top sea NV team. I haven't been a part of the sea scene since my mother passed. As such i have only made one event and no longer travel to events. I have literally nothing to gain. Many people have lost out by others being selfish, it would be nice if people would just come forward and do the right thing. What a load of shit, Nv was originally launching with YYJ, Me, Rossi and Pinder, and was not a result of dox magically getting exposure or whatever from PPSL. Far from the truth. FYI dox was floating the idea of making this team with us long before PPSL ever happened. Andy was a surprise late addition to the team, because he was entertaining another offer at the time. Why are you continuing to try and drag dox/rossi/yyj's name through the mud? It's beyond ridiculous at this point.
Can you back your "...far from the truth..." claim with evidence? I understand you are part of the Nv team and have emotional interest in regards to this situation but calling it "a load of shit" and then making a claim without support is really...strange :S
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I really have to request that this thread be closed.
It made a STRONG accusation against Amanda, based on Cheekyduck's own assumptions, which till now hasn't be substantiated by further evidence. For me this is the main point of the thread, and if you're accusing someone of cheating based on YOUR OWN assumptions, it's just very misleading to a lot of people who can't be bothered to do the math.
Secondly, why are you constantly bringing up the YYJ/Dox/Rossi issue. This feels more of a personal thing than anything related to the main claims you make regarding Amanda being a cheat, which you still struggle to substantiate.
While we all can appreciate the efforts to help Gus out a bit, the fact that you make strong but unsubstantiated accusations and you constantly bring up a personal issue isn't helping the cause and is making this more and more a personal mission more than anything.
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On April 16 2013 10:38 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 10:16 Ftrunkz wrote:On April 16 2013 09:50 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
The stream cheating issue was because YYJ told me they did. Because i was hell bent on getting a rematch for mOOnglaDe i called dox, txt'd Gus, but they didn't want the drama. and the timeframe was cutting it too fine already.
at the event i told rossi what YYJ said and that i saw his name in the stream chat, he told that his stream was on mute.
Now YYJ could of just been trying to upset us because it was funny, true or not, this is one of the reasons why Gus was upset with Sea players.
also YYJ skyped my sister stating the same thing, if anyone knows how to get your skype history back.... please let us know!
For christ sake if you have ANY proof of either Rossi or Yoon cheating, please, by all means, post it. Right now you are making accusations that are incredibly defamatory to both with absolutely NOTHING credible to back you. You either don't seem to understand the seriousness of this kind of accusation or you just straight out don't care. Also for those wondering, at the time of the event Yoon and Rossi were not teammates, neither was under the management of dox, the team Nv had not been conceived yet, and Dox would have no personal gain in some sort of malicious scheming to fuck over other Australian players. If anything Dox and Glade go way back and if there was ANY fucking remote shred of credible evidence of cheating in his tournament presented to him, especially against a person he's interacted with for years, I am more than sure appropriate action would have been taken, as there is absolutely 0 reason why it wouldn't have been. I'm not touching the rest of the issues raised in this thread with a 10ft pole, but the cheating accusations need to stop unless you have something better than your own personal testimony. and no i don't know if it happened, even if i could contact skype and get my sisters data. all a screenshot would prove is that it was said, not that it happened. i have the screen shot of me discussing it with Gus at the time on skype. I called dox on skype. without selling more people out, i am not the only one that knew.
I understand fully that you dont have evidence and wish you did. My point is that making baseless accusations like this is ridiculous and you should stop putting forth arguments towards it, the world will not condemn anyone based off your word alone, especially when your own words clearly state "no i don't know if it happened"... So why on earth bring it up to a public forum? How can you do that and not expect a backlash????
Dox gained a lot from this? he got his top sea NV team.
How, on earth, did this one lone event, have anything to do with dox 'getting his top sea NV team' (of which the player you're accusing him of screwing over is a part of... and teammates with the other players who apparently screwed him over???)... They creation of Nv and this tournament were MONTHS apart. the two players youre accusing were under management of different teams at the time. Both players have had numerous results, most notably at LAN tournaments, before and after the PPSL preceding the creation of Nv. Hell, Nv was created from 5 TEAMLESS people at the time (myself deth and rossi were teamless after ArcMSi ran into financial trouble and disbanded, yoon had left iM previous to it and glade was searching for quite a while after FXO).
I still 100% fail to see, at all, how any collaboration of cheating between Yoon and Rossi makes any sense, or how Dox would have ANYTHING to gain from letting them get away with it if he knew they did.
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On April 16 2013 10:56 Gerlan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 10:43 deth wrote:On April 16 2013 10:38 -CheekyDuck- wrote:On April 16 2013 10:16 Ftrunkz wrote:On April 16 2013 09:50 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
The stream cheating issue was because YYJ told me they did. Because i was hell bent on getting a rematch for mOOnglaDe i called dox, txt'd Gus, but they didn't want the drama. and the timeframe was cutting it too fine already.
at the event i told rossi what YYJ said and that i saw his name in the stream chat, he told that his stream was on mute.
Now YYJ could of just been trying to upset us because it was funny, true or not, this is one of the reasons why Gus was upset with Sea players.
also YYJ skyped my sister stating the same thing, if anyone knows how to get your skype history back.... please let us know!
For christ sake if you have ANY proof of either Rossi or Yoon cheating, please, by all means, post it. Right now you are making accusations that are incredibly defamatory to both with absolutely NOTHING credible to back you. You either don't seem to understand the seriousness of this kind of accusation or you just straight out don't care. Also for those wondering, at the time of the event Yoon and Rossi were not teammates, neither was under the management of dox, the team Nv had not been conceived yet, and Dox would have no personal gain in some sort of malicious scheming to fuck over other Australian players. If anything Dox and Glade go way back and if there was ANY fucking remote shred of credible evidence of cheating in his tournament presented to him, especially against a person he's interacted with for years, I am more than sure appropriate action would have been taken, as there is absolutely 0 reason why it wouldn't have been. I'm not touching the rest of the issues raised in this thread with a 10ft pole, but the cheating accusations need to stop unless you have something better than your own personal testimony. I understand that you are close with NV. and no i don't know if it happened, even if i could contact skype and get my sisters data. all a screenshot would prove is that it was said, not that it happened. i have the screen shot of me discussing it with Gus at the time on skype. I called dox on skype. without selling more people out, i am not the only one that knew. Dox gained a lot from this? he got his top sea NV team. I haven't been a part of the sea scene since my mother passed. As such i have only made one event and no longer travel to events. I have literally nothing to gain. Many people have lost out by others being selfish, it would be nice if people would just come forward and do the right thing. What a load of shit, Nv was originally launching with YYJ, Me, Rossi and Pinder, and was not a result of dox magically getting exposure or whatever from PPSL. Far from the truth. FYI dox was floating the idea of making this team with us long before PPSL ever happened. Andy was a surprise late addition to the team, because he was entertaining another offer at the time. Why are you continuing to try and drag dox/rossi/yyj's name through the mud? It's beyond ridiculous at this point. Can you back your "...far from the truth..." claim with evidence? I understand you are part of the Nv team and have emotional interest in regards to this situation but calling it "a load of shit" and then making a claim without support is really...strange :S
It was a result of a dinner discussion around mid 2011. Take it with a grain of salt (i certainly would), but at the end of the day it's outrageous that cheeky can vilify dox and the team with an assumption of guilt and complete lack of evidence.
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On April 16 2013 01:34 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
you would need to do the math (from the start) to start seeing the numbers don't add up
her exchange rate is 42.85 the usd final price doesn't match (continually done over invoices)
It's obviously you that needs to do the math and explain carefully every step of the process. Your evidence is really poorly organized and there's a lot of ambiguity in your arguments. Several people in this thread have tried to do the math as you suggested, and have come to the conclusion that your post is either missing some numbers or just not true. Please re-do the math and do it in a clear and readable way, instead of just throwing around the magical number 42.85.
Your original post was poorly written, and you should try to be far more elaborate if you're trying to accuse someone of actually stealing money.
Also, someone's name being on stream viewer list is not proof. Even accusing a progamer of being a streamcheater will put a flag on his name and may be harmful to his career. That was just pointless.
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On the whole Rossi stream cheating accusation, I have watched Rossi stream many times, played against him in online tournaments and some small LAN events, he is well mannered, legit dude and it would be very hard for me to think that he would stream cheat at all.
And to repeat what slmw had said Also, someone's name being on stream viewer list is not proof. Even accusing a progamer of being a streamcheater will put a flag on his name and may be harmful to his career. That was just pointless.
Accusing a person of stream cheating without proper evidence is not right, it will create negative publicity regardless if the accusation is true or not.
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On April 16 2013 10:34 [Erasmus] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 10:23 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
eg. mine $400 return (group booking sale thing with family) syd to manila
rossi ticket $1402
full retail: apx $800-900
korea full retail return: apx$450
14 players no group discount: $731
on top of that the number are rounded up in a currency conversion.
if you are paying an airline directly in US for a US priced ticket, why are converting to PHP, unless the money will be used in the country?
so 2 things... 1. Rossi paid more than 'full retail'. It's obviously not unheard of for this kind of thing to cost more than what you call 'full retail'. Why are you up in arms about the prices booked through a travel agent being more than 'full retail'. It generally does cost more when someone performs a service for you like managing your bookings instead of doing it yourself. At worst you've just said Amanda's business overcharges and Gus went with a far more expensive option than was necessary. 2. You've only provided some invoices, no real proof that the currency was converted.... I don't really understand why you seem to a think a Phillipine business would not do their accounting in PHP. How are you so sure the money was actually paid in PHP?
because the only price is on an email that amanda wrote.
we have no idea what these tickets cost.
She manually removed any information on the ticket
because a member from AZK saw gus pay php from an atm to amanda which are reflected in her receipts that also state PHP.
then you see her bill in USD. and i know IGN paid her in USD but she still charged them extra for them to convert to PHP.
two invoice she sent on the same day, i just cropped to the bottom.
when asked to expand the totals numbers change.
only Rachelle ticket had fare information, as a one off invoice that i found in her sent inbox.
as you can see the the 3rd image the fare is in USD
but if you took the time (like i painfully did) and research the taxes 1620php is only a tax if you have lived in the country for a year.
the other tax charge XT could have been altered, but who knows.
also you can see the total is 70317 PHP
(documents Have been altered)
what is interesting is the when she sends the ticket to Rachel, the fare information has been removed.
and last is an email quote for rossi ticket. taxes are more than my flight!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hLcsIDk.png)
This is the only official invoice sent to Gus. as you can see the fare information does not match the invoice total.
and reflects the calculations of Amanda's number "fluffing" i do not know the extent of this "fluffing"
altering taxes, i dunno, really? not a big deal.
agency's can charge booking fees etc. but they have to be CLEARLY labeled.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Rr5U2J9.png)
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It's astonishing how little actual hard evidence is in the OP for all the bluster about exposing 'truth' and going down the 'rabbit hole'. The numbers add up close enough, the stream cheating accusations are baseless and I can't actually see what anyone besides Gus did wrong. It's still Gus' fault for not working with his travel agent and making sure he wasn't getting taken advantage of. The OP is just slandering those involved based on reams of anecdotal chatlog 'evidence' and accounting information she feels she's qualified to say is definitely fraudulent (which probably isn't). From any sort of serious legal/journalistic perspective the OP reads like a conspiracy nutjob on a vendetta. If the evidence was clear-cut it'd speak for itself.
On April 16 2013 09:50 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
at the end of the day, Gus has only let me release this information in hopes that Amanda can give the money back to the people who the money was raised to help. Staff members are still out of pocket and angry.
So this is Gus' perspective on the whole thing. Explains a lot.
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On April 16 2013 04:46 Weirdkid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 00:18 pdd wrote:
Great, it's reopened, I can finally post the analysis I took about 1 hours to compile/write.
Can we talk about the numbers for a second? How much exactly is Cheekyduck suspecting that Amanda made? $5,847.90? Because from what I understand off Cheekyduck's evidence, the only amount I see as a major problem is the money lost due to IGN paying an extra $500 or so.
Difference in quotations between email Amanda sent and invoice she sent
If you do the math between the email Amanda sent (quoting PHP 657,603) and the Invoice (quoting PHP 715,878), you'll notice that the figure was increased because:
- two extra tickets were purchased from Korea (totalling an extra $62,647). Counting the number of people who flew in from Korea, the email only lists 16 while the invoice lists 18 people (the names of the people who flew changed a bit... ie Carn wasn't in the email, but was in the invoice, but he replaced someone else).
- she added PHP466 for Rachel's ticket, as the price quoted in the email was likely just an approximation
- Sen's ticket price actually dropped from PHP26,353 to 21,511.
Reconciling these: 657,603 + 62,647 + 466 - 26,353 + 21,511 = 715,874 (close enough to the price she quoted of 715,878).
So in that sense, she didn't change anything in terms of price between the email and invoice.
Claims that Amanda has been doubly paid in excess of US$5,000
I don't get this one either. So now we have PHP715,878, of which PHP215,000 has (even Amanda admits been paid by Gus). This makes for 500,878PHP, which is equivalent to $11,689.00, of which IGN paid her $12,172.27. Cheekyduck claims that Amanda was paid around $5367 on top of this, but it's shown that the $5367 rounds out to PHP230,000 (of which $215,000 was admittedly used for the plane tickets). Also, it's worth noting that the receipts posted don't even add up to PHP200,000.
This means that the only excess Amanda paid was the $500 that IGN paid and the PHP15,000 difference (230-215k) or around $350. So in all, I can only see $850 as the excess which is unaccounted for (if we forget about the exchange rate of 42.85 being "dodgy", which at the moment remains unclear and even then, it doesn't prove that Amanda intentionally cheated anyone). It's certainly a far cry from the $5.8k that Cheekyduck seems to be suggesting she cheated everyone out of. Also, to reiterate, the receipts do not prove that Gus paid PHP230,000. We know that Amanda received at least PHP215,000, based on her own admission, so the $350 USD here is still in contention.
Quoting in support of this post. I tried to do some math of my own. Taking into account only the airfares, there does seem to be a few hundred dollars left unaccounted for. This unaccounted money comes from IGN's payment of $12,172.27 when the accounted fee at that point should have added up to only about* $11,700. I'm probably missing something here, but this seems to be the case with the information given here. *Varies very slightly depending on how many significant places/decimals you used during the calculations It also isn't very clear from the OP how much money IPL eventually sponsored for the tournament proper, but I guess this isn't really that important for common people like me to know. Either way, it's kinda >.< even just casually thinking about the discrepancy in terms the money sponsored vs the money required. About 17k for flights, and then you need money for accomodation, for casting, for production, etc. etc. Much ouches there.
the point is, she said she was going to jail. not true.
dox said she was going to jail
IGN said she was going to jail
its not just what she took, its what she lost her team. any chance of getting the money owed.
20k was wavied to help get amanda out of trouble now/getting kicked out of her home etc.
this isn't money IGN/IPL over paid her, this is money the community gave her, believing her story.
i agree i can't 100% prove the extent of missing money only constant inconsistencies with her asking cost, but when you have staff members on apx $120 for the event, a lot of people didn't get paid because of her greediness.
below as requested in the money form that IGN sent. only $8500 was sent (verbal contract of 20k was presented in OP)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/O5LrBeM.png)
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Can we please get some actual hard evidence that means something and is organized in readable/understandable way before jumping to conclusions? It would be really nice if there was actual math shown too not just statements about it.
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On April 16 2013 11:18 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
because the only price is on an email that amanda wrote.
we have no idea what these tickets cost.
She manually removed any information on the ticket
Again, you're basing an accusation on lack on information. This is not evidence that she was altering ticket prices.
On April 16 2013 11:18 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
two invoice she sent on the same day, i just cropped to the bottom.
when asked to expand the totals numbers change.
Yup they changed by 6PHP (14 cents?), which might have been rounding. What's this supposed to prove?
On April 16 2013 11:18 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
the other tax charge XT could have been altered, but who knows.
Again there is no evidence of this.
On April 16 2013 11:18 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
also you can see the total is 70317 PHP
(documents Have been altered)
Which documents have been altered? Where is the evidence?
On April 16 2013 11:18 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
This is the only official invoice sent to Gus. as you can see the fare information does not match the invoice total.
and reflects the calculations of Amanda's number "fluffing" i do not know the extent of this "fluffing"
altering taxes, i dunno, really? not a big deal.
agency's can charge booking fees etc. but they have to be CLEARLY labeled.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT
The fare total in the image below the tables is $984 USD. The taxes include 1620 PH, 108 AY, 26424 XT for a total of 28,152 PHP
In the last image it shows a fare of 42,165, which is $984 USD. It shows taxes totally 28,152 PHP. The only different is the IPP Tax of 129 PHP ($3 USD).
Are you being serious?
the point is, she said she was going to jail. not true.
dox said she was going to jail
IGN said she was going to jail
So now you're straight up lying. In the links you provided, i found the following quotes:
Dox: "This is a message from Amanda who is possibly facing jail if this is not resolved imminently"
IGN: "In addition it opens up the possibility that Amanda will be arrested or sued."
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Well, at least this new post of yours makes a bit of sense from a financial POV.
But while it does suggest there were calculation errors, it still doesn't prove that Amanda gained a single cent from this.
1. The numbers could very well be system implemented (it automatically charges the 1620PHP tax which IF your research is correct shouldn't have been paid), meaning the travel agency might have gained from it rather than Amanda. We still are uncertain about Amanda's links to the travel agency.
2. What evidence do you have that Amanda manually removed the price information from the tickets? Again it could just be the standard format for THAT travel agency. While this doesn't prove Amanda's innocence, again, unless we link her directly to the travel agency, it doesn't prove her guilt either. Innocent until proven guilty.
3. As for fudging of other taxes, this still remains to be proven.
4. Gus (or his financial advisors) should have scrutinized the figures better. If like you said the Filipino airport tax is only chargeable to people if they've stayed there for 1 year, then he should have picked up on this a lot earlier.
5. Having lived in South East Asia for most of my life, I know that particularly for small businesses, it is common practice to use slightly altered figures, especially for casual business transactions like this, and not keep detailed records of particular fees (even if the fees are correct). This could just be an example of such a scenario. Again it is up to Gus to ensure that what he pays is correct.
6. If you have a really strong sense that she is cheating, you should just bring it to the Filipino police, and they may be able to uncover more information and evidence. Chances are they can't.
While it's very likely that Amanda could have hypothetical sketched this plot out from Day 1, its equally likely that this could just be bad business practices from both the travel agency and Gus (for not asking questions about the fare earlier).
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On April 16 2013 07:15 UHF wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 01:34 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
Amanda has sent a few invoices.
The invoicing
this is amanda's last offical invoice (her numbers)
you would need to do the math (from the start) to start seeing the numbers don't add up
her exchange rate is 42.85 the usd final price doesn't match (continually done over invoices) There is a difference between the email and the table - the email lists 19 people, the tables lists 20 (I think Carn is the odd one out). If you add up all the numbers, it works out fine (if not, please point it out in detail). Show nested quote +The receipts
total for Amanda was 230 000PHP based on the receipts
as 215 000 + 15 000 php from gus was paid.
with exchange of 42.85
$5367.56 given directly The total of the receipts shown is 70466 + 60076 + 8400 + 26000 + 14000 = 178,942 PHP ($4176 USD), plus the Metrobank slip if you add that in ($4526 total). There are no other receipts shown as evidence to suggest she recieve anything more. (Again, please point it out if i missed it) Show nested quote +Amanda's claim
my issue with this is that why did she manually remove the fare information from the tickets?
and why are the invoices submitted in an email, without any proof of money owing (letter head, tax breakdown, ref numbers)
the excuses for not booking tickets after the first "deposit is paid" is many
- bookings closed
- 1000 excess
i have talked to AA and when you book with an agency 14 people you get group rates, they said there is no way they wouldn't give a group price.
no one will ever know what these tickets cost, i can only compare them to market information.
but lets just say we in this instance believe her invoices to be true:
Therefore total costs were $11,691.94
She was asking for $12,172.27
She billed IGN / IPL, but the total money she received that i know of was $17,539.83 (at an exchange rate of 42.85 Php to the USD)
but then keep in mind she got 230 000 as per the receipts. Her original invoice was for $16,706 USD. You've posted receipts from Team AZK adding up to $4526 USD or just under 200,000 PHP. There is still approx. $12,000 unaccounted for, which is what Amanda claimed. She receieved a check for $12,000 from IGN. The total of everything on the receipts listed reflects the number that was originally invoiced. So to try clear a few things up, please point out - how you arrived at the total costs of $11.691.94 - where she received $17.539.83 from IGN - where she received 230,000 as per her receipts.
I have been looking at this for a while, and it took me a while to understand what i was reading.
but thankyou for taking the time to allow me to direct you to the information. i realized i doubled up on a receipt, so that is now fixed.
how you arrived at the total costs of $11.691.94
because the invoices and information i am presenting is just hers, nothing is solid, and it is a mess to present inconsistencies in an inconsistent document.
but on TL she quoted, that she needed to raise:
so i got that figure from her own words, and using her own agency exchange rate.
where she received $17.539.83 from IGN
sorry i should say IGN and in total from AZK/PPSL and community.
230 000 php (wavier was later signed by Gus so IGN/IPL would pay Amanda directly)
and the receipt she sent back to IGN as proof of payment (i know that she also go "gifts" but thats all i can prove she received)
by adding up the invoice "she" sent
and the receipts "she" issued to gus
and the bank money transfer to AAA
where she received 230,000 as per her receipts.
sorry i posted the wrong this before, i hope this makes it more clear
also in her invoice you can see the receipts notes*
215 000 + 15 000 = 230 000PHP
exchange of 42.85
+ Show Spoiler +
if there is anything else i can clear up please let me know
EDIT: i also have a time stamped conversation of her knowing and accepting payment for the 15 000. the issue is she says gus only paid her, 200 000 then 215 000 but it was 230 000 thats why i'm all conspiracy theory, this girl has played us.
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A person like him should stay away from any position.
Even if op proves he isn't as bad as we think he is, but looking at how he handled the whole thing: disappearing without any statement, causing more uncertainty, scandal, rumors among the community, poor statement to explain things, a person like him is definitely not who we want or need for an event like this.
He wasn't a scapegoat, he really had all the problems that weren't exposed until problems start arising.
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Sorry, I don't have anything useful to bring to the table,
But Oh god,
Am I fucking confused.
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Duck: You are double counting. Amanda received a confirmed amount of $12,172.27 from IGN + $5,367 (PHP230k) from Gus which equals the total of ~$17k or PHP751,546.15. She did not receive ~$17k from IGN + ~5k from Gus, at least not from the evidence you have provided.
The documents below do not prove that she receive any additional money. They are merely waivers, and we always look at the receipts to prove money was passed to her. The figures quoted in the docs below could very well be part of the $12,172.27 given to her by IGN.
+ Show Spoiler +
As the bill was only for PHP715.8k. The excess of 31,000 PHP (751k-715k) equals ~$850, ~$350 of which is the unaccounted PHP15k that Gus paid her as downpayment and ~$500 of which was the excess IGN gave her with the ~$12.2k (12.2k-11.7k).
Now, there is no clear proof that this unaccounted $850 was pocketed by Amanda. It could have been spent on things which you do not have any documents for, or even bank/foreign exchange charges.
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On April 16 2013 11:50 UHF wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 11:18 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
because the only price is on an email that amanda wrote.
we have no idea what these tickets cost.
She manually removed any information on the ticket Again, you're basing an accusation on lack on information. This is not evidence that she was altering ticket prices. Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 11:18 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
two invoice she sent on the same day, i just cropped to the bottom.
when asked to expand the totals numbers change. Yup they changed by 6PHP (14 cents?), which might have been rounding. What's this supposed to prove? Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 11:18 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
the other tax charge XT could have been altered, but who knows. Again there is no evidence of this. Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 11:18 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
also you can see the total is 70317 PHP
(documents Have been altered) Which documents have been altered? Where is the evidence? Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 11:18 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
This is the only official invoice sent to Gus. as you can see the fare information does not match the invoice total.
and reflects the calculations of Amanda's number "fluffing" i do not know the extent of this "fluffing"
altering taxes, i dunno, really? not a big deal.
agency's can charge booking fees etc. but they have to be CLEARLY labeled.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUTThe fare total in the image below the tables is $984 USD. The taxes include 1620 PH, 108 AY, 26424 XT for a total of 28,152 PHP In the last image it shows a fare of 42,165, which is $984 USD. It shows taxes totally 28,152 PHP. The only different is the IPP Tax of 129 PHP ($3 USD). Are you being serious? Show nested quote +the point is, she said she was going to jail. not true.
dox said she was going to jail
IGN said she was going to jail So now you're straight up lying. In the links you provided, i found the following quotes: Dox: "This is a message from Amanda who is possibly facing jail if this is not resolved imminently" IGN: "In addition it opens up the possibility that Amanda will be arrested or sued."
i posted an image of fare information on one document and then being removed in another?
i also posted her email to IGN that she "will not face any jail" and IGN decided to have a "save" amanda event, on top of that even use the term jail to mislead people.
please look again.
there is a difference between a total of: 70317
and: 70466
if her invoices (not mine) statements and numbers don't have any integrity.
she has been consistent with altering the numbers.
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My god can this thread end. Why do we need to see this stuff? This solves nothing, no one is getting their money back and apparently you need to be from Australia to understand what the fuck is going on. I don't know Gus, but I like him way less because this thread is at the top of TL instead of awesome stuff about WCS.
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On April 16 2013 12:12 pdd wrote:Duck: You are double counting. Amanda received a confirmed amount of $12,172.27 from IGN + $5,367 (PHP230k) from Gus which equals the total of ~$17k or PHP751,546.15. She did not receive ~$17k from IGN + ~5k from Gus, at least not from the evidence you have provided. The documents below do not prove that she receive any additional money. They are merely waivers, and we always look at the receipts to prove money was passed to her. The figures quoted in the docs below could very well be part of the $12,172.27 given to her by IGN. + Show Spoiler +As the bill was only for PHP715.8k. The excess of 31,000 PHP (751k-715k) equals ~$850, ~$350 of which is the unaccounted PHP15k that Gus paid her as downpayment and ~$500 of which was the excess IGN gave her with the ~$12.2k (12.2k-11.7k). Now, there is no clear proof that this unaccounted $850 was pocketed by Amanda. It could have been spent on things which you do not have any documents for, or even bank/foreign exchange charges.
Because of the emails from David Ting to Amanda, with the time and date stamp, 230 000php (from gus/azk that came from IPL funding)
Amanda then received 7k from IPL with the wavier
and apx $5172.27 from the community in donations (based on a hand written invoice)
Look are you telling me a agency is going to give a man 12k line of credit, with no credit card, car, and a job that pays at the time 20k a year? with no contract.
i can't believe people are seriously buying into this.
and you can check the chat logs, she tells me this is "normal"
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Cheeky -
You've clearly gone to a significant amount of effort to make a point you believe is important, which is admirable.
If I could give you a couple of pieces of advice -
You've confused people. You need to stop trying to refute individual counterpoints that people raise, it's turning this thread into an endless stream of screenshots and embedded quotes.
Your evidence needs to be presented concisely, and with context. There's a reason the phrase "Too Long; Didn't Read" pops up so often.
My suggestion would be to start from scratch, in a spreadsheet, and show people exactly where the discrepancies are.
While your OP is incredibly thorough, it's very difficult to read. A good argument establishes a premise, and then uses that as a foundation to move on to the next premise - the sum of your premises support your conclusion.
Again, while I'd rather spend my time thinking about how crappy my Platinum level PvZ is than investigate whoever the hell Amanda might be, I sincerely appreciate the fact you've taken the time to present an evidenced argument, and not just whined in the general direction of the community.
./2c
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Because of the emails from David Ting to Amanda, with the time and date stamp, 230 000php (from gus/azk that came from IPL funding)
Amanda then received 7k from IPL with the wavier
and apx $5172.27 from the community in donations (based on a hand written invoice)
I think this might be my last post in this thread, as you are missing the points on a lot of our discussions. I'm going to talk in maths to make things simple.
230,000/42.85 = $5,367 (total amount paid by Gus)
$5367k + 7,000 + $5,172 = $17,539 (total amount received by Amanda from IGN and Gus)
17,539 x 42.85 = P751,546 (same figure in PHP)
P751,546 - 715,884 = P35,662 (amount unaccounted for)
P35,662/42.85 = $832.25 (amount unaccounted for in PHP)
From this $832.25, we have already identified that about $350 is from Gus's PHP15,000 payment and the rest is from IGN paying more than the $11,691.95, we calculated.
Main point here being: While we can't account for the $832.25, we don't know if or how Amanda pocketed it. It could have been due to exchange rate fluctuations or she very likely could have used it to pay off some other expenses (ie: interests, bank fees), there are no further evidences. Also it's a stark contrast to the >$5000 you seemed to be implying Amanda profited in your OP
Look are you telling me a agency is going to give a man 12k line of credit, with no credit card, car, and a job that pays at the time 20k a year? with no contract.
i can't believe people are seriously buying into this.
and you can check the chat logs, she tells me this is "normal"
Well, I don't know for sure what the norm is in Philippines regarding these sorts of transactions, but I don't think you can make assumptions and turn them into accusations. Like I said, if you're dead intent on pursuing this, go to the Filipino cops/lawyers. If my hunch is correct, they will probably not be able to do much about it, as it might just well be the norm.
Also, it's a two way thing. If Gus wanted to make absolutely sure that things would be done alright, he should have scrutinized Amanda better, everything from her travel agency to the fees. He could have gone to another travel agency, IF these prices Amanda quoted were inflated and the business practices of the agency was dodgy. I don't think Amanda would have minded, if he had valid reasons. After all they had a standard to live up to.
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Cheeky - the only people you need to be responding to are UHF and pdd. They are doing much more solid work than you have and there are very clear mistakes in your mathematics. Take a moment and process what they are saying and the numbers they are presenting - check your data then respond.
Also, screenshots of chatlogs you have received from Gus are not evidence at all. If he needed to edit anything, he would of. It's very easy.
EDIT: You are being far too trusting in the words coming out of a slimy person from an area of the world that is notorious for not-so-truthful business practices. There are testimonies in this thread about the way business is conducted in this area of South-East Asia. Be careful not to be naive and trusting of someone who is so desperate to get sympathy.
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On April 16 2013 10:51 UHF wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 10:00 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
yes but you have US dollars, and the total is in US, why are you paying the bill in php? Why does it matter? She listed the numbers in both USD and in PHP in her email, and even provided the exchange rate. MULTIPLE people have stated this exchange rate was both correct and fair for the time period. This is a non-issue. Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 10:00 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
the screen shots are her accounting. if you do the math for the usd to php from the start it starts to get funky.
as an accountant would you call that number fluffing?
15000 php is missing in one of the invoices. Yes we can see the screenshots. MULTIPLE people (including myself) have the calculations and everything adds up pretty much 100%. If you'd like to specifically point out the number fluffing, it would greatly help move the conversation forward. Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 10:00 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
but its the constant number fluffing and editing of the tickets. on one ticket a tax is charged for no reason.
look at any flight eTicket, that thing has fare information, like how much the ticket cost. So you're basing your accusation on the lack of information? Regardless of whether you think that the price of tickets were fudged, you have no evidence to support this. In fact the actual cost of flights (without tax) are very similar to the numbers Dox posted. Even without tax, the higher range Dox posted are so close to Amanda's number that it's hardly unbelievable. I'd like to you provide evidence on a few major points of your accusation. If you could post it in an easy to read & understandable format it would be greatly appreciated: 1. Point out exactly where the number fluffing occurred. Post the evidence to support this claim 2. Show exactly where Amanda made "a huge profit", and post the evidence that supports this claim. 3. Point out where she lied, and provide evidence of this.
I was about to type a post but it seems i couldnt have said it better than UHF.
There is actually nothing wrong with the receipts/conversion. The best case for you would be to say that Amanda's agency OVERCHARGED for the tickets. As for as the accounting goes, the receipts were paid to her company and thus she has no benefit from it. Unless theres some shady commission going on that we dont know about, the receipts actually seems fine lest the over the top pricin(Rossi's ticket).
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So to end all of this, Nv & Dox confirmed not evil, Gus Ledesma still owes people money and we can all move on with our lives?
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I've just gone through every post in this thread. I was terribly confused by the OP seeing how I never knew about the whole original situation.
So far what I've gathered in this thread is that;
Cheekyduck is good friends with Gus from what I can tell from her posts.
It's a very biased post with little actual hard evidence.
The evidence that is shown is being questioned by many different users and in different ways in which the reply is very unclear and doesn't disprove their questioning.
A lot of the math ends up actually working out to no lost money(or very little?) by different users. Definitely needs to be re-worked. Thing to consider is that having to pay more for a plane ticket is normal when using a travel company.
I really wish I knew more about this whole situation as I find it very interesting. I also really and truely dislike that so many names have been mentioned or thrown around so carelessly. If this is mostly a case about lost money and someone being more "just", then the possibility of Rossi stream-cheating is completely irrelevant and should not be in this thread at all. I would completely cut it from here. There isn't enough evidence for it to become a thread of its own. When I read that part, it felt like you were just trying to tarnish a name.
This might just end up being a case of "too little too late" kind of thing. I also really think it hurts Gus that he hasn't posted this or any of the information and it's someone else doing it. Seeing how I don't actually know about the situation, My opinion as of right now is that Gus fucked up one way or another.
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On April 16 2013 12:42 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +Because of the emails from David Ting to Amanda, with the time and date stamp, 230 000php (from gus/azk that came from IPL funding)
Amanda then received 7k from IPL with the wavier
and apx $5172.27 from the community in donations (based on a hand written invoice) I think this might be my last post in this thread, as you are missing the points on a lot of our discussions. I'm going to talk in maths to make things simple. 230,000/42.85 = $5,367 (total amount paid by Gus) $5367k + 7,000 + $5,172 = $17,539 (total amount received by Amanda from IGN and Gus) 17,539 x 42.85 = P751,546 (same figure in PHP) P751,546 - 715,884 = P35,662 (amount unaccounted for) P35,662/42.85 = $832.25 (amount unaccounted for in PHP) From this $832.25, we have already identified that about $350 is from Gus's PHP15,000 payment and the rest is from IGN paying more than the $11,691.95, we calculated. Main point here being: While we can't account for the $832.25, we don't know if or how Amanda pocketed it. It could have been due to exchange rate fluctuations or she very likely could have used it to pay off some other expenses (ie: interests, bank fees), there are no further evidences. Also it's a stark contrast to the >$5000 you seemed to be implying Amanda profited in your OP
Basically what pdd said.
Cheeky, you've made one big assumption here. You think Amanda was knowingly altering quotes/numbers/receipts etc so that she could slice some money off the top for herself.
The problem is that ALL of her invoicing numbers add up. There is no evidence to suggest she altered documents, changed figures, or was tacking on a few extra dollars here and there.
There is a minor discrepancy with what the original invoice total stated, and the end amount of money she supposedly received. It looks like this number is $832.25. We know by your admission the $350 she received from Gus was for interest fees. We don't know if there was additional costs, invoices that aren't listed, or other fees that would come along when dealing with over $16,000 of expenses. You are assuming that this money wasn't needed to pay for something that Amanda was out of pocket for.
Do you really think it's more feasible that someone risked going $16,000 in debt to try and make a few hundred dollars at the end of the day? Do you think she planned for Gus to not front up the money, plan for IGN to step in and organise $7,000 and also plan for the community to try raise $5,000 to pay of the debt, all the while alleged altering receipts, invoices and providing incorrect figures to make a little bit of money?
Lastly onto IGN/IPL/David Ting. We do NOT know the full extent of the deal that was struck between the two parties.
We do know however that in an email the following numbers were listed:
- $12,000 Support for travel expenses
- $2,500 Venue penalty fee
- $3,000 Talent fee for Tastosis
However there is never a formal agreement struck, and it's said that is confirmed 'in spirit'
Later on we discover that $6,000 (50%) was given up front as per contract requirements, along with the $2,500 venue fee.
So Amanda went $17,000 in debt paying for everything but was paid off in part (still had $12,000 outstanding). Gus had no money of his own to pay Amanda as per their agreement. Stuff hit the fan because of Gus's inability to organise/manage things properly, which in term lead to IGN putting the rest of the funds on hold. They even mentioned they'd release the funds if Gus set things straight, but for all they know if they gave the money to Gus, he could do a runner. I mean, he had already gone MIA during the event when things went bad.
At the end of the day, Gus did not have the organisational skills or the money to make this event work. He was in way too far over his head. If you still do not see that, then there really is no point to this thread.
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On April 16 2013 13:47 nakedsurfer wrote:
This might just end up being a case of "too little too late" kind of thing. I also really think it hurts Gus that he hasn't posted this or any of the information and it's someone else doing it. Seeing how I don't actually know about the situation, My opinion as of right now is that Gus fucked up one way or another.
You're right and even with all these talks about financial calculation, it really is Gus that needs to answers for alot of things to clear things up.
Why does he turn up late for his own organization?
Why did he ignore phone calls of some people?
Why didn't he pay for hotel debt and ran off hiding at the same time?
etc.. the list goes on. Its pointless to shift blame onto someone else and leave questions unanswered because its just pointless..
Better yet, if you truly believe Gus is in the right and Amanda is a theif, why not just lawyer up and goto court and get this resolved where LAWYERS will present facts from each side and see who is right or wrong.
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On April 16 2013 12:38 Apth wrote:
Cheeky -
You've clearly gone to a significant amount of effort to make a point you believe is important, which is admirable.
If I could give you a couple of pieces of advice -
You've confused people. You need to stop trying to refute individual counterpoints that people raise, it's turning this thread into an endless stream of screenshots and embedded quotes.
Your evidence needs to be presented concisely, and with context. There's a reason the phrase "Too Long; Didn't Read" pops up so often.
My suggestion would be to start from scratch, in a spreadsheet, and show people exactly where the discrepancies are.
While your OP is incredibly thorough, it's very difficult to read. A good argument establishes a premise, and then uses that as a foundation to move on to the next premise - the sum of your premises support your conclusion.
Again, while I'd rather spend my time thinking about how crappy my Platinum level PvZ is than investigate whoever the hell Amanda might be, I sincerely appreciate the fact you've taken the time to present an evidenced argument, and not just whined in the general direction of the community.
./2c
Spreadsheet or a simple P/L Statement would definitely make it clearer. There might be some actual facts/evidence in the OP but the way it was presented made it very unconvincing.
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I'm sorry, but can someone give me a tldr version? All I can see is that cheekyduck is trying to cover Gus' ass by blaming Amanda. There doesn't seem to be any proof, and any that exists seems to be held together by a level of math and logic that can only be described as that of a mentally handicapped child.
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is it just me or is this thread both surreal and hilarious?
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Well this does shed more light on the situation, so thanks Cheekyduck. Seems like almost everybody involved in that event, are all incompetent. (not casters, players, rachel)
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United States23455 Posts
I want to care, really, but I can't.
One year is my limit on drama revelations.
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There are 0 revelations to have, that's the problem.
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1620php is a travel tax/terminal fee thing charged when you depart the NAIA in Manila. Personally don't think it is right for the government to charge it but they charge it. If you buy the ticket yourself via the internet, you pay for this when you are at the airport.
If you go through the travel agency, this tax is incorporated into the price of your payment to the ticket so you are already paid before you get to the airport. But nonetheless, you paid for it, not the agency or the airlines. Let's at least make that clear.
Anyway Cheeky, you may want to check with what UHF and pdd are saying. You may have missed something, but the amount that's unaccounted for look to be too insignificant to be the cause of PPSL failure.
Also, I'm not sure if where you get your figure of ticket prices to Manila from Australia, but a roundtrip ticket for MNL AUS MNL cost around 35k php a year ago when it was a promo by Cathay Pacific. A friend of mine from australia who flies into Manila from time to time (this included 2011 if memory serves me right) has always stated, the cheapest AUS-MNL-AUS fare she has managed to get for a roundtrip ticket was 40kphp approximately (we round the figures to keep the discussion simple of course).
And to not expect a company to profit a little for services rendered to an individual (eventhough he is a friend) is a bogus idea. If this was person to person, maybe yes. But this is person to company, which was receipts. You can clearly see the invoices have TIN indicated which means these have taxes on them. E-VAT here is 12%, so unless the company wants to bury themselves by not incorporating anyprofit, they are down 12% for every transaction with Gus/AZK or PPSL. Again, this tax is already incorporated most likely in the "lumpsum" payments. But unless you want to get further breakdown, that has rto come from Amanda's former company.
I don't see where this discussion can go any further.
Personally, I think Gus royally screwed up, made promises he couldn't keep and didn't seek the help of those who would be able to compensate for lackluster abilities as a manager (esp with the funds).
I doubt he doesn't have a pc. If he can have a smartphone to contact you, he sure as hell can have a pc/laptop. So him contacting you through mobile doesn't mean anything really as to how financially troubled he is. And personally, it doesn't change the fact he was a cause of the mess.
Anyway, that's that. My two cents and I hope this gets closed already because if its for (as specualted by some) a PPSL2 and Gus is a party of, just bury the thread. We don't need a repeat of that fiasco.
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I agree with you Mr. 17Sphynx17.
I am a corporate accountant here in the Philippines and your post sums it up.
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Its dredging up old drama. All of this should have been done at the time and the entire mess might have been different. I don't really understand why it took so long to come out with it all.
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One more thing is I can't stomach how Gus makes people guilty. When me, sickness, js, neat left AZK what he told me was this line "I see this is what I get for bringing Sickness, Neat, and JS here". After that he even pressured us to return the razer gear he gave to the three which was even supposedly for those who joined the tournament. He even went as far as asking the three to send the gear back or I go to Korea to get the items back saying that he didn't give the gear for them to play as a "one time" AZK member. I mean he promised those players some things that they never got, even getting angry at me for asking him to get SEA accounts and then he has the nerve to even ask for the gear back after those 3 played and won numerous clan wars and placed high in tournaments so he can boast. It's just not right in my opinion'
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On April 16 2013 16:09 QuanticDualan wrote:
One more thing is I can't stomach how Gus makes people guilty. When me, sickness, js, neat left AZK what he told me was this line "I see this is what I get for bringing Sickness, Neat, and JS here". After that he even pressured us to return the razer gear he gave to the three which was even supposedly for those who joined the tournament. He even went as far as asking the three to send the gear back or I go to Korea to get the items back saying that he didn't give the gear for them to play as a "one time" AZK member. I mean he promised those players some things that they never got, even getting angry at me for asking him to get SEA accounts and then he has the nerve to even ask for the gear back after those 3 played and won numerous clan wars and placed high in tournaments so he can boast. It's just not right in my opinion'
Wait? hold up! did they take THE razer gear?
razer sent letters wanting the return of the gear. Gus wouldn't tell me who took them.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zJvVTaL.png)
but if it is in reference to the gear above, thats not cool to do that because you guys felt owed.
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Sounded more like their personal gaming gear (1 mouse, 1 mousepad) or something like this. And not 140 mice they took, if that the unit count behind the name.
And that´s again something that should not be posted out of the blue in here. PM them if you think they stole the mice. Otherwise you have to expect posts like "perhaps there is another reason Gus didn´t tell you who took them".
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On April 16 2013 16:09 QuanticDualan wrote:
One more thing is I can't stomach how Gus makes people guilty. When me, sickness, js, neat left AZK what he told me was this line "I see this is what I get for bringing Sickness, Neat, and JS here". After that he even pressured us to return the razer gear he gave to the three which was even supposedly for those who joined the tournament. He even went as far as asking the three to send the gear back or I go to Korea to get the items back saying that he didn't give the gear for them to play as a "one time" AZK member. I mean he promised those players some things that they never got, even getting angry at me for asking him to get SEA accounts and then he has the nerve to even ask for the gear back after those 3 played and won numerous clan wars and placed high in tournaments so he can boast. It's just not right in my opinion'
On April 16 2013 20:16 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Wait? hold up! did they take THE razer gear? razer sent letters wanting the return of the gear. Gus wouldn't tell me who took them. but if it is in reference to the gear above, thats not cool to do that because you guys felt owed.
I think you might be jumping the gun there. Gus gave them gear to play with as "sponsored players". No where did it say they stole/took/kept over 150 units of Razer gear. Think before you try to tarnish anymore reputations based off assumptions.
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cheekyduck is cuckoo for cocoa puffs.
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On April 16 2013 21:12 Hondelul wrote:
Sounded more like their personal gaming gear (1 mouse, 1 mousepad) or something like this. And not 140 mice they took, if that the unit count behind the name.
And that´s again something that should not be posted out of the blue in here. PM them if you think they stole the mice. Otherwise you have to expect posts like "perhaps there is another reason Gus didn´t tell you who took them".
sadly no one reads.
those are the returned items, but razer states there are items still missing. from reading the emails (*name edited out*) and his group were in charge of monitoring them.
Its just sad to see what vultures everyone becomes when money is involved, how a team can devour itself from a single post.
the worst part is that if the team held together, worked together instead of blame pushing, there would of been no drama and people would of got paid.
tomorrow ill post the spread sheet and all the invoices, and etickets.
in an excel style so people can understand, no more of this "maybe the difference were charges from bank fees"
highlight the contract and dates more clearly.
and see if Gus would like to comment (since these posts are my words and feelings about the event, and reading mountains of email correspondence)
edit: removed name
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On April 16 2013 22:18 aFganFlyTrap wrote:
cheekyduck is cuckoo for cocoa puffs.
I miss your hillarity from war3live, never change =D
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On April 16 2013 20:16 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 16:09 QuanticDualan wrote:
One more thing is I can't stomach how Gus makes people guilty. When me, sickness, js, neat left AZK what he told me was this line "I see this is what I get for bringing Sickness, Neat, and JS here". After that he even pressured us to return the razer gear he gave to the three which was even supposedly for those who joined the tournament. He even went as far as asking the three to send the gear back or I go to Korea to get the items back saying that he didn't give the gear for them to play as a "one time" AZK member. I mean he promised those players some things that they never got, even getting angry at me for asking him to get SEA accounts and then he has the nerve to even ask for the gear back after those 3 played and won numerous clan wars and placed high in tournaments so he can boast. It's just not right in my opinion' Wait? hold up! did they take THE razer gear? razer sent letters wanting the return of the gear. Gus wouldn't tell me who took them. but if it is in reference to the gear above, thats not cool to do that because you guys felt owed.
Why is this email look so different in terms of format to all the other 'evidence'? Is this email verified by the TL admins too? I'll be honest, it doesn't look legit.
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We all know Gus done fucked up. But was there a breach of contract on the side of IGN? And did Amanda ask for more than what she actually needed? Personally i think Amanda going to jail was a bit of an exaggeration. Philippine law here has incredible amounts red tape and bureaucracy and unless you are a person with very good connections, it would be quite some time to even just bring it up to the courts. And it would have been Gus that would be answering to the judge because he would be given a time frame to pay up the debts owed to the travel agency or else go to jail, not Amanda.
Cheeky il wait for your spreadsheets and thank you for that. If it proves that Amanda committed some type of fraud regarding the funds she was asking for, my lawyers will personally make sure that justice is served.
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Justice Shall Be Served!!!!!
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On April 16 2013 22:25 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
tomorrow ill post the spread sheet and all the invoices, and etickets.
in an excel style so people can understand, no more of this "maybe the difference were charges from bank fees"
highlight the contract and dates more clearly.
and see if Gus would like to comment (since these posts are my words and feelings about the event, and reading mountains of email correspondence)
Honestly, this is what you should've done in the first place, rather than post a bunch of conjecture. It seems that from examining the evidence, people aren't quite able to come to the same conclusion as you, so shed some light on your thought process. You can't give everyone a mountain of emails, chat logs and screenshots, call it "evidence" and then make reputation-damaging allegations. You can't get exasperated with people for misunderstanding your points when you provide information piecemeal by piecemeal, rather than sharing it all concisely.
The onus is on you to prove and source your statements, demonstrating a clear connection and allowing for the possibility of alternative explanations. Confirmation bias is a term brought up frequently in this thread, and I'd have to agree. No one else is privy to the full scope of information from these emails; what we see now is what you've selectively chosen. Recollections of private conversations do not constitute as proof. Your word is not even close to good enough to take as gospel, and don't take that negatively- hearsay should never be the definitive authority on anything.
Also, no one else corroborates with your version and interpretation of how these events unfolded, including the multitude of people personally involved with the event that have finally shared their stories.
Here's a pretty good example of a convincing expose:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397705
Clear, structured points. Logical progression of thought, separating facts from fiction, attempting to find reasons for innocence rather than presuming guilt. Second opinions and additional analysis from members of the community, and no sensationalism or over-reaching assertions based on flimsy premises.
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On April 16 2013 20:16 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 16:09 QuanticDualan wrote:
One more thing is I can't stomach how Gus makes people guilty. When me, sickness, js, neat left AZK what he told me was this line "I see this is what I get for bringing Sickness, Neat, and JS here". After that he even pressured us to return the razer gear he gave to the three which was even supposedly for those who joined the tournament. He even went as far as asking the three to send the gear back or I go to Korea to get the items back saying that he didn't give the gear for them to play as a "one time" AZK member. I mean he promised those players some things that they never got, even getting angry at me for asking him to get SEA accounts and then he has the nerve to even ask for the gear back after those 3 played and won numerous clan wars and placed high in tournaments so he can boast. It's just not right in my opinion' Wait? hold up! did they take THE razer gear? razer sent letters wanting the return of the gear. Gus wouldn't tell me who took them. but if it is in reference to the gear above, thats not cool to do that because you guys felt owed.
Cheeky, we never took any gear. The gears lost were mostly Death Adders and Blackwidows. What the 3 received was the Starcraft bundle, mainly spectre, marauder, and banshee. I think you making quick assumptions is really tarnishing the players reputation. Not only do your assumptions have no basis, but you have also been accusing KNOWN players who have been in the scene for so long, and can destroy their careers in an instant. PLEASE get your FACTS straight before throwing your accusations to people who have done nothing wrong.
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This looks completely over, pdd and UHF have entirely refuted the point about Amanda pocketing >$5000 which was really the only issue from the start. All of cheeky's posts now are just an attempt to distract people from that.
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if you cant explain something simply, then you dont understand it. so please, stop talking out of your ass. also, you may want to learn to maths and english better
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On April 16 2013 13:51 UHF wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 12:42 pdd wrote:Because of the emails from David Ting to Amanda, with the time and date stamp, 230 000php (from gus/azk that came from IPL funding)
Amanda then received 7k from IPL with the wavier
and apx $5172.27 from the community in donations (based on a hand written invoice) I think this might be my last post in this thread, as you are missing the points on a lot of our discussions. I'm going to talk in maths to make things simple. 230,000/42.85 = $5,367 (total amount paid by Gus) $5367k + 7,000 + $5,172 = $17,539 (total amount received by Amanda from IGN and Gus) 17,539 x 42.85 = P751,546 (same figure in PHP) P751,546 - 715,884 = P35,662 (amount unaccounted for) P35,662/42.85 = $832.25 (amount unaccounted for in PHP) From this $832.25, we have already identified that about $350 is from Gus's PHP15,000 payment and the rest is from IGN paying more than the $11,691.95, we calculated. Main point here being: While we can't account for the $832.25, we don't know if or how Amanda pocketed it. It could have been due to exchange rate fluctuations or she very likely could have used it to pay off some other expenses (ie: interests, bank fees), there are no further evidences. Also it's a stark contrast to the >$5000 you seemed to be implying Amanda profited in your OP Basically what pdd said. Cheeky, you've made one big assumption here. You think Amanda was knowingly altering quotes/numbers/receipts etc so that she could slice some money off the top for herself. The problem is that ALL of her invoicing numbers add up. There is no evidence to suggest she altered documents, changed figures, or was tacking on a few extra dollars here and there. There is a minor discrepancy with what the original invoice total stated, and the end amount of money she supposedly received. It looks like this number is $832.25. We know by your admission the $350 she received from Gus was for interest fees. We don't know if there was additional costs, invoices that aren't listed, or other fees that would come along when dealing with over $16,000 of expenses. You are assuming that this money wasn't needed to pay for something that Amanda was out of pocket for. Do you really think it's more feasible that someone risked going $16,000 in debt to try and make a few hundred dollars at the end of the day? Do you think she planned for Gus to not front up the money, plan for IGN to step in and organise $7,000 and also plan for the community to try raise $5,000 to pay of the debt, all the while alleged altering receipts, invoices and providing incorrect figures to make a little bit of money? Lastly onto IGN/IPL/David Ting. We do NOT know the full extent of the deal that was struck between the two parties. We do know however that in an email the following numbers were listed: - $12,000 Support for travel expenses - $2,500 Venue penalty fee - $3,000 Talent fee for Tastosis However there is never a formal agreement struck, and it's said that is confirmed 'in spirit' Later on we discover that $6,000 (50%) was given up front as per contract requirements, along with the $2,500 venue fee. So Amanda went $17,000 in debt paying for everything but was paid off in part (still had $12,000 outstanding). Gus had no money of his own to pay Amanda as per their agreement. Stuff hit the fan because of Gus's inability to organise/manage things properly, which in term lead to IGN putting the rest of the funds on hold. They even mentioned they'd release the funds if Gus set things straight, but for all they know if they gave the money to Gus, he could do a runner. I mean, he had already gone MIA during the event when things went bad. At the end of the day, Gus did not have the organisational skills or the money to make this event work. He was in way too far over his head. If you still do not see that, then there really is no point to this thread.
Thanks pdd and UHF for sorting through all the info and doing the math.
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Somehow it feels that cheeky is jumping on everything that transfers blame and guilt away from gus to other parties involved. I will be honest, it reads more like a teenager love"drama", than a real exposure.
Stop being dramatic and assumptive, and start being objective. You may or may not have a point, but at this point you just look hysteric to me. Also, for gods sake, stop trying to tarnish other peoples reputations based on, well, nothing. The only thing you achieve with that is that your OWN reputation gets severely damaged.
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On April 17 2013 00:29 ChriS-X wrote:
if you cant explain something simply, then you dont understand it. so please, stop talking out of your ass. also, you may want to learn to maths and english better
Spot the two Albert Einstein quotes on the page.
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On April 16 2013 12:28 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2013 12:12 pdd wrote:Duck: You are double counting. Amanda received a confirmed amount of $12,172.27 from IGN + $5,367 (PHP230k) from Gus which equals the total of ~$17k or PHP751,546.15. She did not receive ~$17k from IGN + ~5k from Gus, at least not from the evidence you have provided. The documents below do not prove that she receive any additional money. They are merely waivers, and we always look at the receipts to prove money was passed to her. The figures quoted in the docs below could very well be part of the $12,172.27 given to her by IGN. + Show Spoiler +As the bill was only for PHP715.8k. The excess of 31,000 PHP (751k-715k) equals ~$850, ~$350 of which is the unaccounted PHP15k that Gus paid her as downpayment and ~$500 of which was the excess IGN gave her with the ~$12.2k (12.2k-11.7k). Now, there is no clear proof that this unaccounted $850 was pocketed by Amanda. It could have been spent on things which you do not have any documents for, or even bank/foreign exchange charges. Because of the emails from David Ting to Amanda, with the time and date stamp, 230 000php (from gus/azk that came from IPL funding) Amanda then received 7k from IPL with the wavier and apx $5172.27 from the community in donations (based on a hand written invoice) Look are you telling me a agency is going to give a man 12k line of credit, with no credit card, car, and a job that pays at the time 20k a year? with no contract. i can't believe people are seriously buying into this. and you can check the chat logs, she tells me this is "normal"
Two things:
1) How do you know what is or isn't "normal"?
2) If it is not normal then you are saying Amanda is wrong for having trusted the one guy you're trying to commend.
As others have pointed out the numbers add up, at worse THE TRAVEL AGENCY was overpaid about $800. Amanda essentially loaned out $12,000 and suddenly realized she was not getting paid. This would cause fear/panic/anxiety in ANY person, I have no doubts she seriously thought she could see jail time over the debacle as it was unfolding, even if she did no wrong (and again the only wrong she may have commited was trusting Gus). Whether or not she could face jail time is irrelevant as the figures do add up, whether or not she faced jail time ~$12,000 is about what was owed to the company she works for and that is approx. what they recieved. I'm willing to wager that the company she worked for didn't write her a check for any extra funds that they may or may not have recieved/were extra and that Amanda then in turn pocketed it.
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I had a hard time taking this post serious as soon as I saw Alex Conn listed as someone lying. I have done work for years with him and he has been one of the most honest and open people I have ever had the pleasure of working with. Whenever he had an issue he did not beat around the bush, he came to you and said it. I have worked with MANY people in E-Sports, and Alex Conn was ALWAYS the most upfront and more honest in all our time working together. To accuse him of setting up Gus/lying/whatever is laughable at best.
Combined with the unfounded stream cheating accusations, the fail math, the interrogation style chat logs, the obvious friendship bias of the op, and this very obviously sounding like Gus is trying to pave his way for re-entry into E-Sports, I have 0 faith in any of this post being true or accurate.
It's crazy TL mods have allowed this to stay open despite most of (if not all) the evidence provided being debunked, this is some shit for Reddit, and even they did not overly care.
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Let's analyze each of the allegations. I'll skip Amanda as, apparently, there is more information to be had, and UHF and pdd have already thoroughly examined what's readily available.
David
+ Show Spoiler +- Verbal promises about production, stream support, etc.
+ Show Spoiler +Most of the things mentioned are factual; I wouldn't necessarily call it a verbal promise or contract, but Gus did accept the conditions with the understanding that those amenities would be provided, perhaps causing him to overestimate the scale of the event.
- Retraction of verbal promise.
+ Show Spoiler +Minor nitpick: Cheeky's explanation doesn't match up with the screenshot. David clearly says "I have made it pretty clear when we met that my team is fairly stretched...", meaning that David addressed this change in their arrangement prior to the email. Probably at IPL 3 in Atlantic City, from the 6th of October to the 9th of October.
- Changing amount of funding, denied additional funding and refused release of funding.
+ Show Spoiler +From what I can gather, it went from 12k -> 29.5k -> 20k -> 12k. I'm not sure where David ever promised 29.5k (12k sponsorship + 17.5k extras). He said he was committed, but he required a call to formalize the terms. I'm assuming that this call resulted in the figure being revised to 20k (hard to tell without date of skype call).
From the contract, we know that this figure was actually 14500 (12000 sponsorship + 2500 venue cancellation). It's important to note that he never explicitly confirms the 20k amount in the interview. He says, verbatim: "If I recall correctly 20k, I think..." There's no way of truly knowing whether 20k was the agreed-upon amount as there is no contract.
The additional funding was apparently something David addressed in an earlier email or conversation, as he responds with "As I have explained to you..." Gus apparently knew beforehand that only half the funds would be released until after the event. At this point, the accompanying text really doesn't correspond to the screenshots of emails. How is David unreachable on Nov 3rd if he's having this series of emails with Gus on that day?
- Cancelling stream support because of SC2Sea Post.
+ Show Spoiler +Uh, no. Where does it say that in the email? David refers to the incident as a breach of contract, and asks for an explanation. Where is Gus's explanation? Why is that email missing?
- Ignoring Gus's emails and calls.
+ Show Spoiler +Obviously, the only person who can truly verify this is David himself. By the time Gus requests the rest of the funds (the half that was withheld until after the event), the PPSL was a complete disaster, Gus had conducted himself in the most unprofessional manner and calling them "mix-ups" didn't even begin to cover it.
- Many posts were made to conceal IPL involvement.
+ Show Spoiler +How so? I would say that David's interview summed it up pretty nicely.
- False statements about suggestions to focus on stream/online component.
+ Show Spoiler +I don't know how you can prove that David didn't suggest any of that through a phone call, or in person.
TL;DR: David reduces his sponsorship due to financial constraints, Gus fails to adapt accordingly.
Alex
+ Show Spoiler +- "PPSL was never waiting for money from us."
+ Show Spoiler + Full quote: "... our agreement with the PPSL included a schedule for payments which we were up to date on - PPSL was never waiting for money from us." So, actually a true statement.
- "Providing a streaming channel."
+ Show Spoiler +... And funds, which is true. They decided to pull it because it was a disaster.
- "Taking its winner to IPL 4"
+ Show Spoiler +
- "Only caster we were aware of was Tastosis".
+ Show Spoiler +Hard to verify, but Tastosis was the only caster duo mentioned in the email for the $3000 talent fee.
- "... do not feel confident PPSL can present a watchable product..." "... taken away their streaming privileges..."
+ Show Spoiler +Again, I don't know how you can say that this is a lie.
- Alex told IPL about YYJ situation, causing stream cancellation.
+ Show Spoiler +No evidence for this whatsoever. Correlation does not imply causation, and there were a slew of problems that led to this outcome.
TL;DR: Alex, as an employee, communicates his current understanding of the situation to the community and does his job.
Dox
+ Show Spoiler +This is where things start to get petty... - Didn't know about IPL until September 28th.
+ Show Spoiler +What date was the original contract? How do we know this was the original contract and not the updated one? I'm not questioning if you modified it, I'm questioning if it's provided in the right context.
- Made misleading comments about contract details.
+ Show Spoiler +See above, I don't know how a picture of an alleged original contract proves anything. Is there a signed one?
- Contract wasn't honoured.
+ Show Spoiler +Articles 5, 11 and 12 of the limited terms and conditions for services covers this, if Gus was unhappy with the situation he should've acted on it. Also, not sure where you're getting the passport deadline date of 8th October (in the contract, the tournament ends by the 9th) and the 2nd November date isn't sourced.
- Gus bribing Moonglade.
+ Show Spoiler +How was this proved/disproved in any way? Why is this even relevant?
- Streamcheating knowledge.
+ Show Spoiler +Should be deleted. You said yourself: solely based on verbal testimony, or, thin air. This is actually the most outrageous part.
- Contacted IGN about PPSL.
+ Show Spoiler +
- Vilified Gus.
+ Show Spoiler +Honestly, Gus did himself no favours by pulling a disappearing act. Everyone in this topic seems to be echoing similar sentiments. Gus was more than welcome to share his side of the story, but chose to run.
TL;DR: Dox runs a qualifier later than planned, Gus allows it and proceeds to paints himself into a corner promising flights with money he simply doesn't have.
YYJ
+ Show Spoiler +That full chatlog shouldn't have been posted. It was personal, ugly and it offered nothing but a glimpse into the former friendship of two individuals. Completely unnecessary.
TL;DR: YYJ is led to believe that he'll be going to the PPSL by Gus, finds out last minute that isn't the case, is understandably upset and comes to a misguided conclusion on how events unfolded.
CheekyDuck
+ Show Spoiler +You were involved to the extent that I question your ability to be impartial. The way you hounded Amanda and treated her as guilty before proven innocent was disgusting. You blame: - David "going back on his word" and changing sponsorship.
+ Show Spoiler +He's free to change the level of his commitment up until the agreed-upon contract, there's nothing wrong with that. Gus was more dishonest in his attempts to change the terms of payment from his sponsor to compensate for his poor planning.
- Alex "maliciously and knowingly" spreading misinformation.
+ Show Spoiler +
- Dox delaying the event causing unforeseen funding limitations.
+ Show Spoiler +Did Gus even have the funds to send more than one player from the Australian qualifiers to begin with? Or did he not account for an unexpected expense like a contractual obligation and blow it all on goodie bags and uniforms?
- YYJ for not sending his passport in time.
+ Show Spoiler +Yet Gus inconspicuously escapes blame for his botched handling by straight up lying to a player for a week. Not to mention that a player from the same qualifier was still able to attend; did they both send their passports in at significantly different times?
- Amanda saying the bookings were closed. And for being a mastermind criminal with a ridiculously low profit margin.
+ Show Spoiler +If the bookings are closed, they're closed. This is a moot point if the previous two points are true and Gus doesn't have the money anyway.
- YYJ and Dox for "ratting" PPSL out and resulting in sponsorship withdrawal.
+ Show Spoiler +From what I've read the flights were booked in early November, YYJ addressed Gus late October. Gus didn't want to pay for him at that time, but decided to see if he could fit him in last minute. He couldn't. He seemingly gave YYJ's spot in the tournament to NEXSickness, who just happened to be conveniently flown in, and then blamed funding shortfall on IPL. Coincidence or not, you can see how bad that looks.
TL;DR: Gus is not malicious, but he is not innocent either. He is merely incompetent (evident by numerous comments made in this very thread) and still deserves the lion's share of the blame. He was insistent on receiving full credit for the outcome of this event, and I truly hope he continues to do so.
If CheekyDuck's thread is allowed to stay open, I hope she can provide some more conclusive evidence soon. There is too much speculation and slander in her accusations, and those remarks, some overly personal in nature, should be edited out until she can properly provide proof.
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On April 17 2013 06:05 HauntYou wrote:Let's analyze each of the allegations. I'll skip Amanda as, apparently, there is more information to be had, and UHF and pdd have already thoroughly examined what's readily available. Alex+ Show Spoiler +- "PPSL was never waiting for money from us."
+ Show Spoiler + Full quote: "... our agreement with the PPSL included a schedule for payments which we were up to date on - PPSL was never waiting for money from us." So, actually a true statement.
- "Providing a streaming channel."
+ Show Spoiler +... And funds, which is true. They decided to pull it because it was a disaster.
- "Taking its winner to IPL 4"
+ Show Spoiler +
- "Only caster we were aware of was Tastosis".
+ Show Spoiler +Hard to verify, but Tastosis was the only caster duo mentioned in the email for the $3000 talent fee.
- "... do not feel confident PPSL can present a watchable product..." "... taken away their streaming privileges..."
+ Show Spoiler +Again, I don't know how you can say that this is a lie.
- Alex told IPL about YYJ situation, causing stream cancellation.
+ Show Spoiler +No evidence for this whatsoever. Correlation does not imply causation, and there were a slew of problems that led to this outcome.
TL;DR: Alex, as an employee, communicates his current understanding of the situation to the community and does his job. [*] Alex "maliciously and knowingly" spreading misinformation.+ Show Spoiler +If CheekyDuck's thread is allowed to stay open, I hope she can provide some more conclusive evidence soon. There is too much speculation and slander in her accusations, and those remarks, some overly personal in nature, should be edited out until she can properly provide proof.
Thank you for this post. I do not understand how CD can warp facts so badly just to justify her viewpoint.
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I'll happily sit by and allow you to fabricate garbage about me, but you MUST remove all the bullshit about stream cheating. You know it's not true, everyone else knows it's not true. This is potentially damaging to Rossi's career, and our brand/sponsors. I want it gone by Friday.
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Oh my god, I want this thread to end or moved or something. Its is like watching 6 people argue in public and its super awkward.
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I really did not expect to see this pop up again. I remember the massive fail storm and how worse it made the Philippines look. :\
On April 17 2013 07:05 Dox wrote:
I'll happily sit by and allow you to fabricate garbage about me, but you MUST remove all the bullshit about stream cheating. You know it's not true, everyone else knows it's not true. This is potentially damaging to Rossi's career, and our brand/sponsors. I want it gone by Friday.
The dragon has spoken.
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Dox you said you were going to come forward and do the right thing. Many people did.
Gus did not steal the money, and was not solely responsible for the claims made in the YYJ post that shut down the event,
Yes, while my writing may be over emotional, please allow me some time to put everything together more clearly.
and it is my fault that i didn't present the information in an understandable way.
but to answer the questions below on what the emails say.
David
- Verbal promises about production, stream support, etc.
+ Show Spoiler +Most of the things mentioned are factual; I wouldn't necessarily call it a verbal promise or contract, but Gus did accept the conditions with the understanding that those amenities would be provided, perhaps causing him to overestimate the scale of the event.
Well thank-you for agreeing that there was an understanding that resources would be provided
- Retraction of verbal promise.
+ Show Spoiler +Minor nitpick: Cheeky's explanation doesn't match up with the screenshot. David clearly says "I have made it pretty clear when we met that my team is fairly stretched...", meaning that David addressed this change in their arrangement prior to the email. Probably at IPL 3 in Atlantic City, from the 6th of October to the 9th of October.
Once the event for IPL3 happened, there was no funding to send a support team, but the point still stands that the PPSL moved the date which allowed the IPL3 to have the players they wanted to play.
So another deal was discussed, if his staff cannot come to the event, then more money will be needed (20K was agreed upon)
- Changing amount of funding, denied additional funding and refused release of funding.
+ Show Spoiler +From what I can gather, it went from 12k -> 29.5k -> 20k -> 12k. I'm not sure where David ever promised 29.5k (12k sponsorship + 17.5k extras). He said he was committed, but he required a call to formalize the terms. I'm assuming that this call resulted in the figure being revised to 20k (hard to tell without date of skype call).
From the contract, we know that this figure was actually 14500 (12000 sponsorship + 2500 venue cancellation). It's important to note that he never explicitly confirms the 20k amount in the interview. He says, verbatim: "If I recall correctly 20k, I think..." There's no way of truly knowing whether 20k was the agreed-upon amount as there is no contract.
The additional funding was apparently something David addressed in an earlier email or conversation, as he responds with "As I have explained to you..." Gus apparently knew beforehand that only half the funds would be released until after the event. At this point, the accompanying text really doesn't correspond to the screenshots of emails. How is David unreachable on Nov 3rd if he's having this series of emails with Gus on that day?
As Gus was not the only manager of PPSL, this call happened without Gus, the manager txt's Gus that 20k is now the new agreement. (also David ting does a video interview and states that 20k was the agreed funding)
a written contract for ipl staff or extra money was not implemented, this resulted in IPL being able to legally back out of the verbal commitments (or understandings)
ipl3-(oct) PPSl (nov) not much time
Gus tires to contact everyone he knows at IGN, as funding is a real issue and YYJ wants to be flown to Manila.
David has taken offense to this, and Gus apologies and points out that if he checks the time stamp on the other emails that he contacted David Ting first. (David Ting from the email history after the event does in fact never reply to Gus directly unless it is through Amanda)
- Cancelling stream support because of SC2Sea Post.
+ Show Spoiler +Uh, no. Where does it say that in the email? David refers to the incident as a breach of contract, and asks for an explanation. Where is Gus's explanation? Why is that email missing?
- Ignoring Gus's emails and calls.
+ Show Spoiler +Obviously, the only person who can truly verify this is David himself. By the time Gus requests the rest of the funds (the half that was withheld until after the event), the PPSL was a complete disaster, Gus had conducted himself in the most unprofessional manner and calling them "mix-ups" didn't even begin to cover it.
No i have the emails from Gunrun explains to David Ting they had major issues with *blah* *blah* but its going good.
people forget that Day2 was great, only minor hicups and a lot of issues solved.
David Ting cleary states enjoy day 2.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/v0zNDLp.png)
But when the post of sc2sea is sent to David, he pulls the event from ipl stream.
+ Show Spoiler +
Gus calls on the mobile and i think Skype. he sends an email, but i am told that david ting is now ignoring him (most likely due to the internet hate)
+ Show Spoiler +
- Many posts were made to conceal IPL involvement.
+ Show Spoiler +How so? I would say that David's interview summed it up pretty nicely.
they said there involvement was limited to funding and provided a stream, as you can hear from the recording, email, this is not the case.
- False statements about suggestions to focus on stream/online component.
+ Show Spoiler +I don't know how you can prove that David didn't suggest any of that through a phone call, or in person.
TL;DR: David reduces his sponsorship due to financial constraints, Gus fails to adapt accordingly.
[/spoiler]
Yes but there are bigger issues, like David freezing the funds requested by Amanda (imaging if Qantas or flight center did that) A debt to a flight agency (if lending a 12k line of credit is normal as stated by amanda, then they can afford to wait)
can be put on a payment plan, staff however, and hotel rooms are more of an immediate expense.
David did give "recommendations" on who he did and didNOT want at the event. i don't think that is fair to post for obvious reasons.
Alex
- "PPSL was never waiting for money from us."
+ Show Spoiler + Full quote: "... our agreement with the PPSL included a schedule for payments which we were up to date on - PPSL was never waiting for money from us." So, actually a true statement.
Not if you include the "understandings" as you put it, or the verbal contract. but Gus was waitng for the other 50% when the funds were frozen by David ting on information supplied by amanda there is no dispute there, that did happen. to say they were "never" waiting is not a fair statement. They were waiting for lots of things, support, extra money, David ting.
- "Providing a streaming channel."
+ Show Spoiler +... And funds, which is true. They decided to pull it because it was a disaster.
- "Taking its winner to IPL 4"
+ Show Spoiler +
this is really unture, the issues of the stream were raised in advance, they pulled because of a simple sc2sea.com post and the claims made, the event itself was given the chance to prove itself before then.
- "Only caster we were aware of was Tastosis".
+ Show Spoiler +Hard to verify, but Tastosis was the only caster duo mentioned in the email for the $3000 talent fee.
i need time to find the screen shot, but we (my sister and I) did a lot of work for AZK, and it is not uncommon for us to work unpaid. But they were informed that 2 AZK caster were to be at the event, and that i did cast most of the AZK ipl4 qualifiers online with them watching.
- "... do not feel confident PPSL can present a watchable product..." "... taken away their streaming privileges..."
+ Show Spoiler +Again, I don't know how you can say that this is a lie.
If they didn't believe, why would David ting say this?
- Alex told IPL about YYJ situation, causing stream cancellation.
+ Show Spoiler +No evidence for this whatsoever. Correlation does not imply causation, and there were a slew of problems that led to this outcome.
TL;DR: Alex, as an employee, communicates his current understanding of the situation to the community and does his job.
[/spoiler]
well this was my mistake, Alex should be changed to Josh. but the point is still valid.
all problems were communicated with IGN ahead of time, having a stream delayed is expected, running an event with little to no funding was also expected and a non issue.
bribing players, replacing players, and breaking contact are a big issue.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zUY1glc.png)
Dox
This is where things start to get petty...
- Didn't know about IPL until September 28th.
+ Show Spoiler +What date was the original contract? How do we know this was the original contract and not the updated one? I'm not questioning if you modified it, I'm questioning if it's provided in the right context.
there are 4 contracts i think, Gus was forwarded them (Gus never signed them)
but the dates for when the event needed to be finished had stayed the same. (the guy that signed the contract wanted the event canceled because the flight prices were too expensive, because they didn't finish the event on time) somewhat of this is reflected in my skype conversation to dox.
- Made misleading comments about contract details.
+ Show Spoiler +See above, I don't know how a picture of an alleged original contract proves anything. Is there a signed one?
The contract is cropped and circled. giving the idea that AZK didn;t pay up on time, didn't give the 2 tickets that they were owed.
now if you see the contract in its whole, there is a non disclosure etc. there is also the responsibilities that dox needs to preform, and dates that the events need to be finished by.
9th of october, this was delayed to let mOOnglaDe play, as he is a close friend of DOX. the event finished on the 28th oct.
it would be impossible to buy flights on the 24th oct (this was there deadline, they believed they would get players names by the 9th oct)
now passport information didn't come until the 2 NOV, i think everyone needs to accept this was just unfortunate and with the "sonny go incident" bickering of the wiki, it was management communication and stubbornness that caused this. Being part of AZK i told them both Dox and YYJ that YYJ could not go because the event was delayed and the prices are too expensive.
Dox was also informed of the money azk was willing to spend on tickets.
- Contract wasn't honoured.
+ Show Spoiler +Articles 5, 11 and 12 of the limited terms and conditions for services covers this, if Gus was unhappy with the situation he should've acted on it. Also, not sure where you're getting the passport deadline date of 8th October (in the contract, the tournament ends by the 9th) and the 2nd November date isn't sourced.
Sorry - 9th of october is when the event is meant to be completed, this was delayed to let mOOnglaDe play, as he is a close friend of DOX. the event finished on the 28th oct.
it would be impossible to buy flights on the 24th oct (this was there deadline, they believed they would get players names by the 9th oct and be able to get the tickets at latest 24th)
now passport information didn't come until the 2 NOV
and ill post that screen shot here:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HrYTBjT.png)
- Gus bribing Moonglade.
+ Show Spoiler +How was this proved/disproved in any way? Why is this even relevant?
I have been working to get this removed from the internet.
I was directly involved (before the dox event) to secure him a ticket. It was selfish of me to try and secure our family holiday.
Andy and my Sister are dating, so i approached team AZK management with Andy to negotiate terms as i had information early that violet was dropped so i saw an opportunity.
Dox made the claim, and the internet ran with it. when you see: Andy's name removed on request. Thats us girls yelling at Andy to not let those lies be printed.
its relevant because it caused a major witch hunt.
- Streamcheating knowledge.
+ Show Spoiler +Should be deleted. You said yourself: solely based on verbal testimony, or, thin air. This is actually the most outrageous part.
Yoon can always come forward and post his skype logs to bee.
- Contacted IGN about PPSL.
+ Show Spoiler +
Dox has denied doing this.
- Vilified Gus.
+ Show Spoiler +Honestly, Gus did himself no favours by pulling a disappearing act. Everyone in this topic seems to be echoing similar sentiments. Gus was more than welcome to share his side of the story, but chose to run.
you come forward and no one gets paid. everyone including myself believe amanda's debt was real. He did not sell out or rat on a single person publicity if i remember.
i was there and he did not run away. he was late to the hotel, expenses from clive and amanda were meant to be dealt with in team, it was a non issue as i already offered to foot the bill when i arrived in the morning. Everything about him disappearing is him being ignored by people or people threatening his life. His interview, no one wanted a sorry, they wanted to know why he stole the money, its hard to explain that there was no money and to not make anyone else look bad and or by saying any incriminating statements about parties your still hoping will cough up the dough.
TL;DR: Dox runs a qualifier later than planned, Gus allows it and proceeds to paints himself into a corner promising flights with money he simply doesn't have.
[/spoiler]
Untrue, he told them no. I was the middle person, i told them no. i pressured Gus into asking IGN, and talked YYJ into really wanting to go, and ask IGN and i talked to DOX to ask IGN. I asked Amanda who is "suppose" to be a travel agent, she said yes, then later said it was too expensive but then told Gus the flights are all booked.
Gus said he will try to get YYJ to go, since Dox told him he was going.
YYJ
+ Show Spoiler +That full chatlog shouldn't have been posted. It was personal, ugly and it offered nothing but a glimpse into the former friendship of two individuals. Completely unnecessary.
YYJ is doing this because he is offended. I was the one who was also giving YYJ information, information that was misrepresented in the sc2sea post.
TL;DR: YYJ is led to believe that he'll be going to the PPSL by Gus, finds out last minute that isn't the case, is understandably upset and comes to a misguided conclusion on how events unfolded.
Not if you give your passport last minute. NOV2 and the event is the 9th?
CheekyDuck
[spoiler]You were involved to the extent that I question your ability to be impartial.
The way you hounded Amanda and treated her as guilty before proven innocent was disgusting.
You blame:
- David "going back on his word" and changing sponsorship.
+ Show Spoiler +He's free to change the level of his commitment up until the agreed-upon contract, there's nothing wrong with that. Gus was more dishonest in his attempts to change the terms of payment from his sponsor to compensate for his poor planning.
Gus was naive to believe and didn't consider someone going back on there word.
The contract was verbally discussed changes because the ipl support team to run the event was pulled.
(this was all done from concept to completion in roughly 6 months, when IPL name was attached, they wanted the big casters, an expense that Gus clearly states they cannot afford)
- Alex "maliciously and knowingly" spreading misinformation.
+ Show Spoiler +
IGN contact was Josh, but alex should have been privy to the emails that amanda admitted she was not going to jail. or the emails of david ting in general.
- Dox delaying the event causing unforeseen funding limitations.
+ Show Spoiler +Did Gus even have the funds to send more than one player from the Australian qualifiers to begin with? Or did he not account for an unexpected expense like a contractual obligation and blow it all on goodie bags and uniforms?
The funds we doubled because of the delay, so 2 tickets for the price of one.
Dox was given there expectations of flight costs. which had nothing to do with Gus as he was not sponsoring these flights.
- YYJ for not sending his passport in time.
+ Show Spoiler +Yet Gus inconspicuously escapes blame for his botched handling by straight up lying to a player for a week. Not to mention that a player from the same qualifier was still able to attend; did they both send their passports in at significantly different times?
He didn't lie. how can you say that the mOOnglaDe thing doens't matter and then you bring it up here.
I was in talks to get all 3 players to go, that was my intention. mOOnglaDe would of been sponsored by a personal sponsor and was not getting paid for by Gus. Like i said in my chat to DOX, he would take Violets spot.
- Amanda saying the bookings were closed. And for being a mastermind criminal with a ridiculously low profit margin.
+ Show Spoiler +If the bookings are closed, they're closed. This is a moot point if the previous two points are true and Gus doesn't have the money anyway.
she told me the were $5000 and YYJ that it was $5000, but told Gus it was closed.
but i will go more into this later as i did have trouble presenting this information.
He didn't have the money because Amanda got david ting to freeze the funds.
deals were on a 50/50 and you are correct in that he didnt have the money personally but other managers behind the scenes did (and were happy to pay for expenses they saw as valid).
- YYJ and Dox for "ratting" PPSL out and resulting in sponsorship withdrawal.
+ Show Spoiler +From what I've read the flights were booked in early November, YYJ addressed Gus late October. Gus didn't want to pay for him at that time, but decided to see if he could fit him in last minute. He couldn't. He seemingly gave YYJ's spot in the tournament to NEXSickness, who just happened to be conveniently flown in, and then blamed funding shortfall on IPL. Coincidence or not, you can see how bad that looks.
yes thats what it looks like. and thats what they made it look like.
but here it is:
Gus didn't have much involvement with the YYJ flights, the other managers didn't want to pay due to the reason i stated above, and i informed them of those reasons.
(there were other avenues i presented to get a RE, but Targa was an Australian resident but his finland flag confused me on the wiki)
I harass the shit out of Gus, every day while i was there to send YYJ (this was after i told andy, gus, dox what YYJ told me and there was no time for a RE)
no one took YYJ's spot. the only spot taken is VIOLETS.
Gus was told YYJ was a very good player, but was worried about the other issues, tried his best to get a ticket (from his own pocket).
TL;DR: Gus is not malicious, but he is not innocent either. He is merely incompetent (evident by numerous comments made in this very thread) and still deserves the lion's share of the blame. He was insistent on receiving full credit for the outcome of this event, and I truly hope he continues to do so.
He gave a big speech the night before, i remember he said something like:
I know i put my name over this, and i am getting the credit,
but don't worry because if this go bad, i'll also take the blame.
And he kept his word imo.
I believe he is naive and he made decisions based on peoples word and trusted them. He took things for face value and didn't research into depth (like invoices).
but he wasn't this mastermind thief, he wasn't a monster.
he was a guy that was Part of running an event, that tore itself apart in the end.
and no one remembers day 2, which a lot of people overcame many issues and achieved a quality product.
But by keeping quiet, people like Amanda can get away with what they have done and look like an innocent victim.
....
i can change the stream cheating to.
CheekyDuck (with the time stamps) discussed with Gus (player name censored) (names of players and event organisers) that there is stream cheating against mOOnglaDe and that there should be a rematch.
because i have a skype screen shot of that.
But who cares about stream cheating, it was an online event, the event for such a decent prize should have been live.
even if someone is in the stream, you can't 100% prove anything. but this information was why YYJ was more of a reason not getting flown. And Targa, taking games and not wanting to go, really upset AZK.
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If Gus could not have performed what he promised with what was given in the written and signed contract then he should not have signed it. End of story. Stop saying we didn't deliver what we promised. We delivered exactly what we legally committed to. You cannot go back to a company and say "well at first you were talking about doing x, y and z, and even though we only have a contract for z, why didn't you deliver x and y?".
Also do not drag Joshy in this. He was my employee and I had direct responsibility for his actions.
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(stream cheating) because it is a major issue in the thread, I would like to clarify and confess that it was my fault that YYJ's ticket was not immediately issued with Rossi's. I informed Dox and Gus and blew the whistle that "stream cheating" occurred. It was based on information i received in confidence from YYJ. My intention was to force a justified rematch that would of benefited mOOnglaDe and my sister. (when i get home i will post the screen shot from skype with the time stamp)
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On April 17 2013 12:34 SunDevil wrote:
If Gus could not have performed what he promised with what was given in the written and signed contract then he should not have signed it. End of story. Stop saying we didn't deliver what we promised. We delivered exactly what we legally committed to. You cannot go back to a company and say "well at first you were talking about doing x, y and z, and even though we only have a contract for z, why didn't you deliver x and y?".
Also do not drag Joshy in this. He was my employee and I had direct responsibility for his actions.
legally your obligations were only fulfilled once Gus signed the wavier freeing you from x,y,z.
that lets be honest that wavier was pressured by Amanda's perceived urgency to receive funds asap.
you didn't want to state that XYZ was offered and then withdrawn, and your statements about the event cover any of that up!
who contacted ign and pointed them to SC2SEA post, instead of verifying the information, your department decides to just cut all contact and switch off the stream.
lets talk about section 9.2 ! of the IGN contract signed.
legally at this point you guys are completely at fault.
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On April 17 2013 13:10 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 12:34 SunDevil wrote:
If Gus could not have performed what he promised with what was given in the written and signed contract then he should not have signed it. End of story. Stop saying we didn't deliver what we promised. We delivered exactly what we legally committed to. You cannot go back to a company and say "well at first you were talking about doing x, y and z, and even though we only have a contract for z, why didn't you deliver x and y?".
Also do not drag Joshy in this. He was my employee and I had direct responsibility for his actions. legally your obligations were only fulfilled once Gus signed the wavier freeing you from x,y,z. that lets be honest that wavier was pressured by Amanda's perceived urgency to receive funds asap. you didn't want to state that XYZ was offered and then withdrawn, and your statements about the event cover any of that up! who contacted ign and pointed them to SC2SEA post, instead of verifying the information, your department decides to just cut all contact and switch off the stream. lets talk about section 9.2 ! of the IGN contract signed. legally at this point you guys are completely at fault.
That's all very well and good but PPSL didn't fulfill their contractual obligations.
Verbal contracts are worth the paper they're printed on.
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This thread is fucking stupid.
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On April 17 2013 13:10 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 12:34 SunDevil wrote:
If Gus could not have performed what he promised with what was given in the written and signed contract then he should not have signed it. End of story. Stop saying we didn't deliver what we promised. We delivered exactly what we legally committed to. You cannot go back to a company and say "well at first you were talking about doing x, y and z, and even though we only have a contract for z, why didn't you deliver x and y?".
Also do not drag Joshy in this. He was my employee and I had direct responsibility for his actions. legally your obligations were only fulfilled once Gus signed the wavier freeing you from x,y,z. that lets be honest that wavier was pressured by Amanda's perceived urgency to receive funds asap. you didn't want to state that XYZ was offered and then withdrawn, and your statements about the event cover any of that up! who contacted ign and pointed them to SC2SEA post, instead of verifying the information, your department decides to just cut all contact and switch off the stream. lets talk about section 9.2 ! of the IGN contract signed. legally at this point you guys are completely at fault.
This is the only important part of what you just typed: "Legally your obligations were only fulfilled once Gus signed the wavier freeing you from x,y,z."
Sounds like our legal obligations were fulfilled as you just said.
Nobody is covering anything up. Your entire argument is relying on twisted facts and assumptions.
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If all legal obligations were fulfilled, I'm happy. Verbal contracts are broken on a daily basis in E-Sports (and every industry on the planet) and are worth nothing. It's why people ALWAYS tell you "get a signed contract". Whatever is on that paper is all that matters.
I am confused about the timing of all this, very interesting it was done after IPL folded and most employees would be barred from talking about it (being most of them now work for Blizzard and all), and records would be piecemeal at best.
Also I STILL can't help but feel this is Gus' way to try and get back in E-Sports.
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Cheeky, I don't mean to be rude, but it looks like you are just doing this to disprove Gus as a thief right?
But seriously, who here thinks he did steal PPSL/IPL money? I don't think anyone in their right mind would think that after the surge of emotion died down a month after PPSL event.
He was just a guy who royally screwed up, didn't budget well, made promises he couldn't keep, or basically made promises he shouldn't have in the first place (like promising players gear he wasn't even entitled to).
You have two of his partners for PPSL that posted here but nowhere did they state Gus stole money. He was stupid with the money but he did not steal it. So the "thief" tag is a non-issue. It wasn't there to begin with.
As for ticket prices, I think we all know it fluctuates. And when you do budget, you assume a low and high figure. Gus' (as per your post) apparently already knew he was out of budget for a ticket from AUS to MNL, yet he still let's YYJ cling on to hope that he maybe able to do something. You just don't do that. This makes the guy waiting on the other end royally pissed when you say no last minute after he you let him expect. If Dox was at fault for delaying the event which caused the ticket prices to skyrocket, then Gus should have been straight and ended it there.
Anyway, still waiting on your spreadsheet for how you even think Amanda stole money.
As for the stream cheating, I think you should just close the whole issue. That is too far off from where you can even make claims because you are not even a party to the event. You are relying on someone else's words with just chat logs. That is the job of the event organizer to ensure integrity of his event. If he found no malice, then that's that. To claim you have insider info with just chat logs is just wrong. Better just delete the whole thing as it is not relevant to PPSL second look anyway.
If your issue with is is the delay of the confrmation of the players to be sent, just leave i at that. Don't add more to it when you don't have concrete proof.
An I don't get the IPL issue with regards to sponsorship. Aren't sponsors going to give you a set amount of money/stuff which is formalized? So the email itself is non-binding. If Gus wanted to check IPL commitment, that is based off the formal agreement, not an email. We are talking about 20k usd here and are you seriously reliant on an email or chat log and not a formal agreement to establish commitments of who to whom? It was also understood that funding of the remaining 50% is after the PPSL event itself. So should IPL release money to Gus during the event because of his mismangement of the budget. He already knows before hand he only has X/2 from IPL. so that should have been budgeted properly. If he wanted to use X as the working budget, that would mean he/PPSL needs to pony up the cash of X/2 first since they can only receive X/2 amount from IPL only after. That is clear. I mean anyone with basic understanding of english can see that was also clear.
IPL is not expected the breach its payment terms based off of their agreement just because someone didn't budget properly. But the whole mess of Amanda popping up, quality of streams being not on par with what was promised (I expect this to also be a gauge of Gus' deliverables to IPL) would of course force a company like IPL to question WTF is happening over there.
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On April 17 2013 13:29 SunDevil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 13:10 -CheekyDuck- wrote:On April 17 2013 12:34 SunDevil wrote:
If Gus could not have performed what he promised with what was given in the written and signed contract then he should not have signed it. End of story. Stop saying we didn't deliver what we promised. We delivered exactly what we legally committed to. You cannot go back to a company and say "well at first you were talking about doing x, y and z, and even though we only have a contract for z, why didn't you deliver x and y?".
Also do not drag Joshy in this. He was my employee and I had direct responsibility for his actions. legally your obligations were only fulfilled once Gus signed the wavier freeing you from x,y,z. that lets be honest that wavier was pressured by Amanda's perceived urgency to receive funds asap. you didn't want to state that XYZ was offered and then withdrawn, and your statements about the event cover any of that up! who contacted ign and pointed them to SC2SEA post, instead of verifying the information, your department decides to just cut all contact and switch off the stream. lets talk about section 9.2 ! of the IGN contract signed. legally at this point you guys are completely at fault. This is the only important part of what you just typed: "Legally your obligations were only fulfilled once Gus signed the wavier freeing you from x,y,z." Sounds like our legal obligations were fulfilled as you just said. Nobody is covering anything up. Your entire argument is relying on twisted facts and assumptions.
9.2. IGN’s Obligations. IGN hereby agrees to defend, indemnify and hold harmless Sponsor, and its directors,
officers, employees and affiliated entities, against any and all Losses arising out of or based on any claim
by a third party related to, involving or concerning (a) a breach by IGN of its representations, warranties
or obligations under this Agreement, or (b) the gross negligence or willful misconduct of its employees or
agents.
tell me how you defended? to me and your posts, you guys sold out.
yeah you guys can't now be forced to "legally" cough up the money, but it still doesn't mean you weren't in serious breach of its clauses.
9.3. Claim Procedure.
10. Term and Termination.
yep and you followed that as well.
contracts work both ways, its not just about the money, it a system set in place that is meant to protect this sort of incident happening.
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This thread just seems like 5 people arguing in public. If matters are so serious, take up some legal action then afterward you can inform the community of the outcome if you so desire. Numbers have been proven not to be a huge issue thanks to posters doing the math. All that's left after that is arguments about who was right and who was wrong that will go nowhere at all. There really isn't anywhere for this to go.
Honestly this all coming out at such a delayed time after the fact just makes me think it's all to clear Gus's name and pave the way for a PPSL 2 that will attract viewers.
Oh and stream cheating accusations with poor evidence is not something to be taken lightly. Killing off an Australian player is horrible, it's hard enough to grow talent down here already without dealing with half assed accusations.
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Exactly who is the 3rd party who is bringing a claim against Gus/AZK?
I do not think the hold harmless clause means what you think it means.
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On April 17 2013 13:50 Ded808 wrote:
This thread just seems like 5 people arguing in public. If matters are so serious, take up some legal action then afterward you can inform the community of the outcome if you so desire. Numbers have been proven not to be a huge issue thanks to posters doing the math. All that's left after that is arguments about who was right and who was wrong that will go nowhere at all. There really isn't anywhere for this to go.
Honestly this all coming out at such a delayed time after the fact just makes me think it's all to clear Gus's name and pave the way for a PPSL 2 that will attract viewers.
Oh and stream cheating accusations with poor evidence is not something to be taken lightly. Killing off an Australian player is horrible, it's hard enough to grow talent down here already without dealing with half assed accusations.
there is no PPSL 2, stop encouraging this rumor.
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I said I won't post in this thread anymore, but after reading Dox's blog: http://esportsdinosaur.blogspot.com.au/2013/04/how-to-save-life.html, and going through all of Cheekyduck's posts here, I conclude that she's either naive and incoherent with her objectives and the main point she's making or she has a massive vendetta against Dox and some other people that its driven her to great lengths to make accusations and slander based on her own assumptions.
I'm leaning on the latter. Please close this thread.
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On April 17 2013 13:42 -CheekyDuck- wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 17 2013 13:29 SunDevil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 13:10 -CheekyDuck- wrote:On April 17 2013 12:34 SunDevil wrote:
If Gus could not have performed what he promised with what was given in the written and signed contract then he should not have signed it. End of story. Stop saying we didn't deliver what we promised. We delivered exactly what we legally committed to. You cannot go back to a company and say "well at first you were talking about doing x, y and z, and even though we only have a contract for z, why didn't you deliver x and y?".
Also do not drag Joshy in this. He was my employee and I had direct responsibility for his actions. legally your obligations were only fulfilled once Gus signed the wavier freeing you from x,y,z. that lets be honest that wavier was pressured by Amanda's perceived urgency to receive funds asap. you didn't want to state that XYZ was offered and then withdrawn, and your statements about the event cover any of that up! who contacted ign and pointed them to SC2SEA post, instead of verifying the information, your department decides to just cut all contact and switch off the stream. lets talk about section 9.2 ! of the IGN contract signed. legally at this point you guys are completely at fault. This is the only important part of what you just typed: "Legally your obligations were only fulfilled once Gus signed the wavier freeing you from x,y,z." Sounds like our legal obligations were fulfilled as you just said. Nobody is covering anything up. Your entire argument is relying on twisted facts and assumptions. 9.2. IGN’s Obligations. IGN hereby agrees to defend, indemnify and hold harmless Sponsor, and its directors, officers, employees and affiliated entities, against any and all Losses arising out of or based on any claim by a third party related to, involving or concerning (a) a breach by IGN of its representations, warranties or obligations under this Agreement, or (b) the gross negligence or willful misconduct of its employees or agents. tell me how you defended? to me and your posts, you guys sold out. yeah you guys can't now be forced to "legally" cough up the money, but it still doesn't mean you weren't in serious breach of its clauses. 9.3. Claim Procedure. 10. Term and Termination. yep and you followed that as well. contracts work both ways, its not just about the money, it a system set in place that is meant to protect this sort of incident happening.
Cheeky, I'm quite surprised that's how you understood that.
That statement, as per my understanding for 9.2 is that IGN will defend its sponsor, directors, officers etc. How is teamAZk or PPSL a sponsor?
Basically, its like having coke being a sponsor of IGN/IPL in general. And an event like I don't know PPSL botched. IGN/IPL will defend coke from any wrongdoing or any claims by debts caused by an event sponsored by IGN/IPL or whatever. It clearly even states a breach by IGN will still indemnify its sponsors.
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On April 17 2013 14:01 17Sphynx17 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 13:42 -CheekyDuck- wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 17 2013 13:29 SunDevil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 13:10 -CheekyDuck- wrote:On April 17 2013 12:34 SunDevil wrote:
If Gus could not have performed what he promised with what was given in the written and signed contract then he should not have signed it. End of story. Stop saying we didn't deliver what we promised. We delivered exactly what we legally committed to. You cannot go back to a company and say "well at first you were talking about doing x, y and z, and even though we only have a contract for z, why didn't you deliver x and y?".
Also do not drag Joshy in this. He was my employee and I had direct responsibility for his actions. legally your obligations were only fulfilled once Gus signed the wavier freeing you from x,y,z. that lets be honest that wavier was pressured by Amanda's perceived urgency to receive funds asap. you didn't want to state that XYZ was offered and then withdrawn, and your statements about the event cover any of that up! who contacted ign and pointed them to SC2SEA post, instead of verifying the information, your department decides to just cut all contact and switch off the stream. lets talk about section 9.2 ! of the IGN contract signed. legally at this point you guys are completely at fault. This is the only important part of what you just typed: "Legally your obligations were only fulfilled once Gus signed the wavier freeing you from x,y,z." Sounds like our legal obligations were fulfilled as you just said. Nobody is covering anything up. Your entire argument is relying on twisted facts and assumptions. 9.2. IGN’s Obligations. IGN hereby agrees to defend, indemnify and hold harmless Sponsor, and its directors, officers, employees and affiliated entities, against any and all Losses arising out of or based on any claim by a third party related to, involving or concerning (a) a breach by IGN of its representations, warranties or obligations under this Agreement, or (b) the gross negligence or willful misconduct of its employees or agents. tell me how you defended? to me and your posts, you guys sold out. yeah you guys can't now be forced to "legally" cough up the money, but it still doesn't mean you weren't in serious breach of its clauses. 9.3. Claim Procedure. 10. Term and Termination. yep and you followed that as well. contracts work both ways, its not just about the money, it a system set in place that is meant to protect this sort of incident happening. Cheeky, I'm quite surprised that's how you understood that. That statement, as per my understanding for 9.2 is that IGN will defend its sponsor, directors, officers etc. How is teamAZk or PPSL a sponsor? Basically, its like having coke being a sponsor of IGN/IPL in general. And an event like I don't know PPSL botched. IGN/IPL will defend coke from any wrongdoing or any claims by debts caused by an event sponsored by IGN/IPL or whatever. It clearly even states a breach by IGN will still indemnify its sponsors.
"This eSports Sponsorship Agreement (“Agreement”) is made and entered into as of September __, 2011 (the
“Effective Date”), by and between IGN Entertainment, Inc., a Delaware corporation (“IGN”), with its principal
place of business at 625 2nd Street, 3rd Floor, San Francisco, CA 94107 and [PPSL], a ______ corporation
(“Sponsor”), with its principal place of business at __________."
in the contract Sponsor refers to Gus that actually signed this contract
and IGN as well, IGN.
...
edit:
IGN hereby agrees to defend, indemnify and hold harmless Sponsor,
Defend. you can't say in any of your many posts, blogs, or davids tweets/reddit posts that this was the case.
i am not a lawyer, but its doesn't say defend hold harmless its defend and. not just in relation to getting sued.
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On April 17 2013 14:05 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
edit:
IGN hereby agrees to defend, indemnify and hold harmless Sponsor,
Defend. you can't say in any of your many posts, blogs, or davids tweets/reddit posts that this was the case.
i am not a lawyer, but its doesn't say defend hold harmless its defend and. not just in relation to getting sued.
You cannot cherrypick words out of a provision of the contract.
"IGN hereby agrees to defend, indemnify and hold harmless Sponsor, and its directors, officers, employees and affiliated entities, against any and all Losses arising out of or based on any claim by a third party related to, involving or concerning (a) a breach by IGN of its representations, warranties or obligations under this Agreement, or (b) the gross negligence or willful misconduct of its employees or agents."
***THE FOLLOWING IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE***
This is about making good any losses arising out a third party claim against AZK/Gus based on a breach of the contract by IGN's employees or agents. Nothing else.
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Throughout this whole thread, it's funny how it was never mentioned what happened to the rest of the sponsorship money.
i.e. from the other sponsors of the event. (ones that we were able to secure locally)
Because I know for a fact that IPL wasn't the only sponsor to sign up for the event.
So even though this whole IPL thing was a mess and ended up falling through, it doesn't put them at fault. There was other sponsorship money that was used as Gus's own personal fund. Read my post in page 3 where I mention how Gus took the players and casters out, and footed the bill for everything. That wasn't his own money he was using, it was from other sponsors.
I will repeat what I have stated in this thread over and over again, there is no way that Gus was an innocent in this whole situation. He used funds that were supposed to go to PPSL as if it was his own bank account, for weeks after the event he went into hiding (which is understandable, seeing how much hate he got worldwide), and when the time came when he had to explain everything, he couldn't be found. IPL even took the initiative to set up the "Save Amanda" charity that many from the community donated to.
So, no. Having seen with my own eyes the extent of manipulation and bullshit that came from Gus, I can assure you that IPL was not at fault for the failure that was PPSL. Also, what Alex said was true, the agreement was that IPL would send the sponsorship funds in parts, and not as a whole lump sum.
Like I mentioned in my post on Page 3, we had fixed the budget to allow us to fly in Tastosis and the winner of the first qualifier, which was Sen. That was about it. Everything else was Gus, having gone rogue and power tripping since he knew we got IPL's support, he decided to splurge and spend money that we didn't have, and because of that put PPSL over it's head.
One brightside was that Nvidia, one of the other sponsors that we were able to secure for the event, didn't give Gus the prize money, but instead paid MKP in cash after he won. I guess the Nvidia guy could tell how shady Gus was and decided to hold the money until the day itself, and presented it directly to MKP. Smart choice Nvidia guy, you deserve a raise!
I'm fucking serious, if any of you believe that Gus was a victim, or someone who got gypped in this deal, you are either mentally retarded or absolutely fucking nuts. Excuse my language.
I still get so riled up thinking about it.
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On April 17 2013 14:05 -CheekyDuck- wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 17 2013 14:01 17Sphynx17 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 13:42 -CheekyDuck- wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 17 2013 13:29 SunDevil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 13:10 -CheekyDuck- wrote:On April 17 2013 12:34 SunDevil wrote:
If Gus could not have performed what he promised with what was given in the written and signed contract then he should not have signed it. End of story. Stop saying we didn't deliver what we promised. We delivered exactly what we legally committed to. You cannot go back to a company and say "well at first you were talking about doing x, y and z, and even though we only have a contract for z, why didn't you deliver x and y?".
Also do not drag Joshy in this. He was my employee and I had direct responsibility for his actions. legally your obligations were only fulfilled once Gus signed the wavier freeing you from x,y,z. that lets be honest that wavier was pressured by Amanda's perceived urgency to receive funds asap. you didn't want to state that XYZ was offered and then withdrawn, and your statements about the event cover any of that up! who contacted ign and pointed them to SC2SEA post, instead of verifying the information, your department decides to just cut all contact and switch off the stream. lets talk about section 9.2 ! of the IGN contract signed. legally at this point you guys are completely at fault. This is the only important part of what you just typed: "Legally your obligations were only fulfilled once Gus signed the wavier freeing you from x,y,z." Sounds like our legal obligations were fulfilled as you just said. Nobody is covering anything up. Your entire argument is relying on twisted facts and assumptions. 9.2. IGN’s Obligations. IGN hereby agrees to defend, indemnify and hold harmless Sponsor, and its directors, officers, employees and affiliated entities, against any and all Losses arising out of or based on any claim by a third party related to, involving or concerning (a) a breach by IGN of its representations, warranties or obligations under this Agreement, or (b) the gross negligence or willful misconduct of its employees or agents. tell me how you defended? to me and your posts, you guys sold out. yeah you guys can't now be forced to "legally" cough up the money, but it still doesn't mean you weren't in serious breach of its clauses. 9.3. Claim Procedure. 10. Term and Termination. yep and you followed that as well. contracts work both ways, its not just about the money, it a system set in place that is meant to protect this sort of incident happening. Cheeky, I'm quite surprised that's how you understood that. That statement, as per my understanding for 9.2 is that IGN will defend its sponsor, directors, officers etc. How is teamAZk or PPSL a sponsor? Basically, its like having coke being a sponsor of IGN/IPL in general. And an event like I don't know PPSL botched. IGN/IPL will defend coke from any wrongdoing or any claims by debts caused by an event sponsored by IGN/IPL or whatever. It clearly even states a breach by IGN will still indemnify its sponsors. "This eSports Sponsorship Agreement (“Agreement”) is made and entered into as of September __, 2011 (the “Effective Date”), by and between IGN Entertainment, Inc., a Delaware corporation (“IGN”), with its principal place of business at 625 2nd Street, 3rd Floor, San Francisco, CA 94107 and [PPSL], a ______ corporation (“Sponsor”), with its principal place of business at __________." in the contract Sponsor refers to Gus that actually signed this contract and IGN as well, IGN. ... edit:
IGN hereby agrees to defend, indemnify and hold harmless Sponsor, Defend. you can't say in any of your many posts, blogs, or davids tweets/reddit posts that this was the case. i am not a lawyer, but its doesn't say defend hold harmless its defend and. not just in relation to getting sued .
(a) a breach by IGN of its representations, warranties or obligations under this Agreement, or
(b) the gross negligence or willful misconduct of its employees or agents.
Those are the two instances where IGN will as you say "defend" PPSL in general. It's not Gus specifically. So did IGN breach anything in terms of payment? Did the contract specify that IGN will commit to bring personnel for the PPSL event (I think this is one of your issues)? So did they breach anything in their agreement to qualify for this clause?
I don't get it Cheeky, I seriously don't get where this is supposed to go.
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On April 17 2013 13:42 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 13:29 SunDevil wrote:On April 17 2013 13:10 -CheekyDuck- wrote:On April 17 2013 12:34 SunDevil wrote:
If Gus could not have performed what he promised with what was given in the written and signed contract then he should not have signed it. End of story. Stop saying we didn't deliver what we promised. We delivered exactly what we legally committed to. You cannot go back to a company and say "well at first you were talking about doing x, y and z, and even though we only have a contract for z, why didn't you deliver x and y?".
Also do not drag Joshy in this. He was my employee and I had direct responsibility for his actions. legally your obligations were only fulfilled once Gus signed the wavier freeing you from x,y,z. that lets be honest that wavier was pressured by Amanda's perceived urgency to receive funds asap. you didn't want to state that XYZ was offered and then withdrawn, and your statements about the event cover any of that up! who contacted ign and pointed them to SC2SEA post, instead of verifying the information, your department decides to just cut all contact and switch off the stream. lets talk about section 9.2 ! of the IGN contract signed. legally at this point you guys are completely at fault. This is the only important part of what you just typed: "Legally your obligations were only fulfilled once Gus signed the wavier freeing you from x,y,z." Sounds like our legal obligations were fulfilled as you just said. Nobody is covering anything up. Your entire argument is relying on twisted facts and assumptions. 9.2. IGN’s Obligations. IGN hereby agrees to defend, indemnify and hold harmless Sponsor, and its directors, officers, employees and affiliated entities, against any and all Losses arising out of or based on any claim by a third party related to, involving or concerning (a) a breach by IGN of its representations, warranties or obligations under this Agreement, or (b) the gross negligence or willful misconduct of its employees or agents.
Hmm. So in simpler terms, this means that if IGN doesn't fulfil the contract or IGN employees screw up, and a third party brings something against PPSL because of that that causes "losses" to PPSL, then IGN will defend PPSL from those "losses"?
Which brings us back to Alex's question.. On April 17 2013 13:50 SunDevil wrote:
Exactly who is the 3rd party who is bringing a claim against Gus/AZK?
+ Show Spoiler [Personal thoughts] +Pffft.... Contract language >.<
Edit: Scrolling up, I guess Alex explained this in even simpler language.
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Contracts make the world go round my friend!
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Cheeky, you can't seriously expect us to rely on your cherry picking on IGN contract on what you feel suits the needs. You have to keep it in context as a whole. I am no lawyer but I can at least read contracts and understand them to a good enough degree.
But luckily you posted the whole 9.2 so that at least immediately closes out what you even want to bring up, next topic. Moving on.
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On April 17 2013 14:05 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 14:01 17Sphynx17 wrote:On April 17 2013 13:42 -CheekyDuck- wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 17 2013 13:29 SunDevil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 13:10 -CheekyDuck- wrote:On April 17 2013 12:34 SunDevil wrote:
If Gus could not have performed what he promised with what was given in the written and signed contract then he should not have signed it. End of story. Stop saying we didn't deliver what we promised. We delivered exactly what we legally committed to. You cannot go back to a company and say "well at first you were talking about doing x, y and z, and even though we only have a contract for z, why didn't you deliver x and y?".
Also do not drag Joshy in this. He was my employee and I had direct responsibility for his actions. legally your obligations were only fulfilled once Gus signed the wavier freeing you from x,y,z. that lets be honest that wavier was pressured by Amanda's perceived urgency to receive funds asap. you didn't want to state that XYZ was offered and then withdrawn, and your statements about the event cover any of that up! who contacted ign and pointed them to SC2SEA post, instead of verifying the information, your department decides to just cut all contact and switch off the stream. lets talk about section 9.2 ! of the IGN contract signed. legally at this point you guys are completely at fault. This is the only important part of what you just typed: "Legally your obligations were only fulfilled once Gus signed the wavier freeing you from x,y,z." Sounds like our legal obligations were fulfilled as you just said. Nobody is covering anything up. Your entire argument is relying on twisted facts and assumptions. 9.2. IGN’s Obligations. IGN hereby agrees to defend, indemnify and hold harmless Sponsor, and its directors, officers, employees and affiliated entities, against any and all Losses arising out of or based on any claim by a third party related to, involving or concerning (a) a breach by IGN of its representations, warranties or obligations under this Agreement, or (b) the gross negligence or willful misconduct of its employees or agents. tell me how you defended? to me and your posts, you guys sold out. yeah you guys can't now be forced to "legally" cough up the money, but it still doesn't mean you weren't in serious breach of its clauses. 9.3. Claim Procedure. 10. Term and Termination. yep and you followed that as well. contracts work both ways, its not just about the money, it a system set in place that is meant to protect this sort of incident happening. Cheeky, I'm quite surprised that's how you understood that. That statement, as per my understanding for 9.2 is that IGN will defend its sponsor, directors, officers etc. How is teamAZk or PPSL a sponsor? Basically, its like having coke being a sponsor of IGN/IPL in general. And an event like I don't know PPSL botched. IGN/IPL will defend coke from any wrongdoing or any claims by debts caused by an event sponsored by IGN/IPL or whatever. It clearly even states a breach by IGN will still indemnify its sponsors. "This eSports Sponsorship Agreement (“Agreement”) is made and entered into as of September __, 2011 (the “Effective Date”), by and between IGN Entertainment, Inc., a Delaware corporation (“IGN”), with its principal place of business at 625 2nd Street, 3rd Floor, San Francisco, CA 94107 and [PPSL], a ______ corporation (“Sponsor”), with its principal place of business at __________." in the contract Sponsor refers to Gus that actually signed this contract and IGN as well, IGN. ... edit:
IGN hereby agrees to defend, indemnify and hold harmless Sponsor, Defend. you can't say in any of your many posts, blogs, or davids tweets/reddit posts that this was the case. i am not a lawyer, but its doesn't say defend hold harmless its defend and. not just in relation to getting sued.
Indeed you're not a lawyer, because you've missed the second part of the term:
against any and all Losses arising out of or based on any claim
by a third party related to, involving or concerning (a) a breach by IGN of its representations, warranties
or obligations under this Agreement, or (b) the gross negligence or willful misconduct of its employees or
agents.
There were no claims against Gus regarding breaches by IGN of its representations, warranties or obligations, nor was there any gross negligence or willful misconduct of its employees or agents. They were contracted to defend 'Sponsor' (who you say is Gus) against claims related to faults from IGN, and there were none.
Please stop stating what people are legally obligated or contracted to do when you clearly don't have the understanding/knowledge to make such statements.
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Once again CheekyDuck leaves out info to make her point.... Its only what she's done this entire thread. Why is it still open?
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On April 17 2013 13:55 pdd wrote:I said I won't post in this thread anymore, but after reading Dox's blog: http://esportsdinosaur.blogspot.com.au/2013/04/how-to-save-life.html, and going through all of Cheekyduck's posts here, I conclude that she's either naive and incoherent with her objectives and the main point she's making or she has a massive vendetta against Dox and some other people that its driven her to great lengths to make accusations and slander based on her own assumptions. I'm leaning on the latter. Please close this thread.
this is what im talking about with dox
absolutely disgusted!
and full of miss information.
i will post the "complete" logs of this that are on my phone and skype.
and what we talked about off stream/ disgusting flat out lies.
i can't even finish reading this.
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On April 17 2013 14:29 jmbthirteen wrote:
Once again CheekyDuck leaves out info to make her point.... Its only what she's done this entire thread. Why is it still open?
what info?
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10. Term and Termination.
10.1. Term. This Agreement shall commence on the Effective Date and shall be effective until the completion
of the Event (the “Term”) unless earlier terminated as set forth herein.
10.2. Termination for Breach or Insolvency. Either party may terminate this Agreement at any time prior to
the expiration of the Term in the event that: (i) the other party breaches any material term or condition of
this Agreement and fails to cure such breach within thirty (30) business days after receipt of written notice
of such breach; (ii) either party becomes the subject of a voluntary petition in bankruptcy or any voluntary
proceeding relating to insolvency, receivership, liquidation, or composition for the benefit of creditors; or
(iii) either party becomes the subject of an involuntary petition in bankruptcy or any involuntary proceeding
relating to insolvency, receivership, liquidation, or composition for the benefit of creditors, if such petition
or proceeding is not dismissed within sixty (60) days of filing.
10.3. Obligations Upon Termination. Immediately upon termination or expiration of this Agreement, (a)
each party will cease using the other party’s Marks; and (b) each party will cease to use the other party’s
Confidential Information, and will destroy or return (at the option of the other party) any Confidential
Information to the other party, along with a written confirmation of destruction or return, signed by an
officer of such party. Sections 3, 4.1, 4.2, 4.4, 5.4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.3 and 11 shall survive any expiration or
termination of this Agreement.
....
so 30 days then? look the stream was pulled because of the sc2sea post. David thing admits that in email. doesn't have anything to do with internet issues.
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On April 17 2013 14:42 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
so 30 days then? look the stream was pulled because of the sc2sea post. David thing admits that in email. doesn't have anything to do with internet issues.
Could you please repost where David explicitly admits in an email that the stream was removed due to the post on sc2sea, as I can't seem to find it.
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On April 17 2013 14:45 UHF wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 14:42 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
so 30 days then? look the stream was pulled because of the sc2sea post. David thing admits that in email. doesn't have anything to do with internet issues. Could you please repost where David explicitly admits in an email that the stream was removed due to the post on sc2sea, as I can't seem to find it.
And also, can you just post the whole damned contract? Why does it need to be in piecemeal? I mean, you admit you are not a lawyer and from we can see, you didn't interpret the contract properly when you made your accusations, so why not post it already since you seem to have it. Oh, don't post a draft, it has to be (really has to be) the formally signed agreement.
We as impartial readers can at least get the whole picture of deliverables, obligations and what not instead of you saying this and that and it turns out it isn't and you just misinterpreted it.
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On April 17 2013 13:04 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
(stream cheating) because it is a major issue in the thread, I would like to clarify and confess that it was my fault that YYJ's ticket was not immediately issued with Rossi's. I informed Dox and Gus and blew the whistle that "stream cheating" occurred. It was based on information i received in confidence from YYJ. My intention was to force a justified rematch that would of benefited mOOnglaDe and my sister. (when i get home i will post the screen shot from skype with the time stamp)
You say you got the information about possible streamcheating from YYJ. And yet, in the skype log you posted, when you talk about it, he says he doesn't think it was stream cheating?
[10/29/2011 9:45:46 PM] the cheekyduck: look yoon, the thing is rossi was stream cheating
[10/29/2011 9:45:53 PM] Yojun Yoon: wtf
[10/29/2011 9:45:55 PM] the cheekyduck: so gus i already pissed
[10/29/2011 9:45:59 PM] Yojun Yoon: how do you know
[10/29/2011 9:46:01 PM] Yojun Yoon: wtf ?
[10/29/2011 9:46:09 PM] the cheekyduck: yeah i saw tarossi in my chat box
[10/29/2011 9:46:23 PM] Yojun Yoon: nono
[10/29/2011 9:46:27 PM] Yojun Yoon: dont think it was
Stream cheating is a serious accusation that can ruin a person's esports career. If this lame chatlog is the only kind of evidence you shouldn't have posted that part into a public forum (if it was just private speculation you should have edited and left it private) to begin with. If there are other logs with something more concrete you should have posted those first if you wanted to make a real accusation, but if this kind of hearsay is all there is, then making such accusations public in this thread is pretty bullshit.
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On April 17 2013 14:45 UHF wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 14:42 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
so 30 days then? look the stream was pulled because of the sc2sea post. David thing admits that in email. doesn't have anything to do with internet issues. Could you please repost where David explicitly admits in an email that the stream was removed due to the post on sc2sea, as I can't seem to find it.
this was one of the last emails from David Ting. the email before he was wishing us luck Day2!
David doesn't answer calls or respond to the email about how day2 went better.
please.
as you can see it links the YYJ post. thats why the dox contract is so important.
its just not fair.
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On April 17 2013 14:53 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 13:04 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
(stream cheating) because it is a major issue in the thread, I would like to clarify and confess that it was my fault that YYJ's ticket was not immediately issued with Rossi's. I informed Dox and Gus and blew the whistle that "stream cheating" occurred. It was based on information i received in confidence from YYJ. My intention was to force a justified rematch that would of benefited mOOnglaDe and my sister. (when i get home i will post the screen shot from skype with the time stamp) You say you got the information about possible streamcheating from YYJ. And yet, in the skype log you posted, when you talk about it, he says he doesn't think it was stream cheating? [10/29/2011 9:45:46 PM] the cheekyduck: look yoon, the thing is rossi was stream cheating [10/29/2011 9:45:53 PM] Yojun Yoon: wtf [10/29/2011 9:45:55 PM] the cheekyduck: so gus i already pissed [10/29/2011 9:45:59 PM] Yojun Yoon: how do you know [10/29/2011 9:46:01 PM] Yojun Yoon: wtf ? [10/29/2011 9:46:09 PM] the cheekyduck: yeah i saw tarossi in my chat box [10/29/2011 9:46:23 PM] Yojun Yoon: nono [10/29/2011 9:46:27 PM] Yojun Yoon: dont think it was Stream cheating is a serious accusation that can ruin a person's esports career. If this lame chatlog is the only kind of evidence you shouldn't have posted that part into a public forum (if it was just private speculation you should have edited and left it private) to begin with. If there are other logs with something more concrete you should have posted those first if you wanted to make a real accusation, but if this kind of hearsay is all there is, then making such accusations public in this thread is pretty bullshit.
Doesn't TL typically have standards for this type of thing I've seen people get banned for stream cheating/hacking accusations with more evidence than this. The fact that this has stood for so long without it being edited out is worrying. How often do we see people start e-mailing sponsors based off knee jerk reactions to reading something like this.
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On April 17 2013 14:53 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 13:04 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
(stream cheating) because it is a major issue in the thread, I would like to clarify and confess that it was my fault that YYJ's ticket was not immediately issued with Rossi's. I informed Dox and Gus and blew the whistle that "stream cheating" occurred. It was based on information i received in confidence from YYJ. My intention was to force a justified rematch that would of benefited mOOnglaDe and my sister. (when i get home i will post the screen shot from skype with the time stamp) You say you got the information about possible streamcheating from YYJ. And yet, in the skype log you posted, when you talk about it, he says he doesn't think it was stream cheating? [10/29/2011 9:45:46 PM] the cheekyduck: look yoon, the thing is rossi was stream cheating [10/29/2011 9:45:53 PM] Yojun Yoon: wtf [10/29/2011 9:45:55 PM] the cheekyduck: so gus i already pissed [10/29/2011 9:45:59 PM] Yojun Yoon: how do you know [10/29/2011 9:46:01 PM] Yojun Yoon: wtf ? [10/29/2011 9:46:09 PM] the cheekyduck: yeah i saw tarossi in my chat box [10/29/2011 9:46:23 PM] Yojun Yoon: nono [10/29/2011 9:46:27 PM] Yojun Yoon: dont think it was Stream cheating is a serious accusation that can ruin a person's esports career. If this lame chatlog is the only kind of evidence you shouldn't have posted that part into a public forum (if it was just private speculation you should have edited and left it private) to begin with. If there are other logs with something more concrete you should have posted those first if you wanted to make a real accusation, but if this kind of hearsay is all there is, then making such accusations public in this thread is pretty bullshit.
yes i was very suspitious, thais was before me and YYJ spoke in person.
YYJ is so keen to post parts of my chat logs, (dox blog) why doesn't he post the conversation he had with BEE on skype that black and white caused this!
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On April 17 2013 15:02 HiTeK532 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 14:53 Fyrewolf wrote:On April 17 2013 13:04 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
(stream cheating) because it is a major issue in the thread, I would like to clarify and confess that it was my fault that YYJ's ticket was not immediately issued with Rossi's. I informed Dox and Gus and blew the whistle that "stream cheating" occurred. It was based on information i received in confidence from YYJ. My intention was to force a justified rematch that would of benefited mOOnglaDe and my sister. (when i get home i will post the screen shot from skype with the time stamp) You say you got the information about possible streamcheating from YYJ. And yet, in the skype log you posted, when you talk about it, he says he doesn't think it was stream cheating? [10/29/2011 9:45:46 PM] the cheekyduck: look yoon, the thing is rossi was stream cheating [10/29/2011 9:45:53 PM] Yojun Yoon: wtf [10/29/2011 9:45:55 PM] the cheekyduck: so gus i already pissed [10/29/2011 9:45:59 PM] Yojun Yoon: how do you know [10/29/2011 9:46:01 PM] Yojun Yoon: wtf ? [10/29/2011 9:46:09 PM] the cheekyduck: yeah i saw tarossi in my chat box [10/29/2011 9:46:23 PM] Yojun Yoon: nono [10/29/2011 9:46:27 PM] Yojun Yoon: dont think it was Stream cheating is a serious accusation that can ruin a person's esports career. If this lame chatlog is the only kind of evidence you shouldn't have posted that part into a public forum (if it was just private speculation you should have edited and left it private) to begin with. If there are other logs with something more concrete you should have posted those first if you wanted to make a real accusation, but if this kind of hearsay is all there is, then making such accusations public in this thread is pretty bullshit. Doesn't TL typically have standards for this type of thing I've seen people get banned for stream cheating/hacking accusations with more evidence than this. The fact that this has stood for so long without it being edited out is worrying. How often do we see people start e-mailing sponsors based off knee jerk reactions to reading something like this.
Why didn't YYJ get ticket? this is why! it doesn't matter if it was true or not, the fact is that rossi was in the stream chat, i thought he was cheating, i talked to yyj he said nono, its not him.
and then told me they had a cheating pack. put then he could of been making it up.
either way, i went to gus and tried to get a rematch.
YYJ's ticket was in dispute, he wrote a blog on sc2sea, IGN shut ppsl down, Amanda got sponsorship money and donations from the comunity.
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Taken from Dox's Blog, so that you guys can see his response to Cheekyduck.
Tuesday, 16 April 2013
How To Save A Life
Well. What a wild couple of days.
I have to say, I didn't see that coming. I didn't see anything coming.
When I decided to release a list of my expenditure last year, I thought it would help a few people. I wanted to introduce a speck of transparency to an otherwise murky industry. Somehow it found a way to backfire!
People have been nagging me for some sort of statement regarding this cluster of fucks, so I guess this is the best place to do it, considering this is where the attack began.
Here's a timeline of events, for clarity. I'm a big fan of clarity.
WARNING. None of this is new, interesting, or even remotely relevant to the scene. It's boring. It's pointless. I'm only writing it so I have a documented stance on all this before shit gets any further out of hand. The only part I care about is Rossi being accused of stream cheating. Accusations like that are taken & handled very seriously, and can have a significant impact on a players' career. If she doesn't remove the statement by the end of the week, I'm gonna be making a lot of noise about it. I'm worried she's already done enough damage to the poor guy.
- CheekyDuck posts a Tweet / Facebook update about my blog, claiming that "lies like this" were the reason she & LiviBee left Nv.
- I ask for clarification, but she says I have to appear on her stream if I want her to elaborate.
- I agree to appearing on her stream, because I just want it over and done with. Unfortunately she was busy all day, so we had to reschedule.
- I text CheekyDuck at 6:00AM saying, "I'll make myself available whenever you are free today!"
- She replies with "Late tonight if you want."
- I agree to make time for her later that night. I head out to spend one last day with my gf's parents, whilst Facebook becomes a cesspool.
+ Show Spoiler +
Her sister accuses me of avoiding phone calls & voice chats, yet no such attempts of communication were actually made. She could have phoned me, but chose to attack me in public. She then made it look like I was the one withholding.
+ Show Spoiler +
In my previous blog, I mentioned that she was out of contact for a while due to moving house. She somehow interpreted this as an attack, and responded by linking a personal blog about the passing of her mother.
+ Show Spoiler +
I sent her a text message, letting her know that I was just finishing up dinner with my girlfriends' parents in the city, and that I would be on my way home soon. She responds with:
"Look. You could be the mastermind behind this or you could be the guy that acted on information that was given to you at the time. I am happy to talk to you before the stream thing if you still want to do that. My questions are only to give closure as well (as) find intensions. I also promise it is to explore and not twist the truth."
+ Show Spoiler +
I finally get home and we commence the Skype call. I ask her what she wants. She asks me who took the following screenshot. It's from the IGNPL4_Pacific_Contract_Draft_C.docx I drafted before agreeing to commence work on the project.
+ Show Spoiler +
I told her that since it's been so long ago, I can't remember who took the screenshot. But just for the sake of getting to the point, I told her I took it. She pointed out that "Gus' signature isn't on the contract. It's Mariano's. Therefore the contract isn't valid, and Gus doesn't have to adhere to it." I quoted the correspondence between myself, Gus & Mariano, whereby Gus fully authorised Mariano to sign the contract.
She acknowledges that, but then decides to accuse me of "conveniently cropping" the screenshot to hide evidence. I ask her to elaborate, and she points out that the schedule for the Australian qualifiers didn't match up with the actual event. I look back at the event, and this is true. This is the schedule I included in the contract:
• Groups A & B: Tuesday, 4th October
• Groups A & B: Wednesday, 5th October
• Groups A & B: Thursday, 6th October
• Groups A & B: Friday, 7th October
• Double Elimination Bracket Day #1: Saturday, 8th October
• Double Elimination Bracket Day #2: Sunday, 9th October (corrected a typo here)
However after numerous Skype calls with Mariano, he and I agreed that it would be best if we delay the qualifiers until mOOnGLaDe had returned from Blizzcon, since he was arguably the best candidate to represent Australia at that point in time. By this point, we had already signed off on the contract, so no-one thought to go back and update it. No request was made by Mariano or anyone at AZK to update the contract. I mean, we had actual work to do. Lots of time and preparation went into the event. To this day, I'm adamant that the Australian qualifier was one of the coolest online events we've ever had. CheekyDuck made some awesome introduction videos for each of the players and they were a massive hit.
Anyway, back to the conversation. She claimed that since I didn't fulfill my end of the contract (adhering to the proposed schedule), that the entire contract was void, and Gus was no longer required to fly two Australian players to the finals. She was pressuring me to make an official statement that I was responsible for the passports of the players or something; I'm not quite sure. She was going on a massive rant for about 15 minutes about how Gus is struggling to make a living / can't provide for his family / had to sell his computer / gets spat on in public / etc, and it was all my fault. I asked her if she had interviewed any of the other relevant parties, and she said she'd spoken to TheGunRun, TorcH, Seltzer and numerous others, and that they had all admitted to making up lies because they were angry at the time. She told me it was my turn to admit to my lies, because apparently I had only said those things so that I could "get famous." I refused to do anything of the sort, and we moved on to her attacks against me.
She said she wasn't interested in talking about all of those things, all she cared about was Gus.
I asked he why Nv was "evil" and she claimed to have never said such a thing. I asked why she accused me of lying about flights & accommodation, even though I provided her with invoices. She said she had never accused me of lying in my blog, only about Gus. She said she had interviewed most of the SEA community and everyone agreed that I was always trying to take credit for other peoples' work. I asked her to provide examples, and she said that she spoke with Nick Vanzetti (ACL CEO) and that when he booked flights & accommodation for someone, I tried to cover it up and act like I paid for it. She was unable to provide evidence.
She then went on to mention that someone stream cheated in "Dox Cup PPSL." I asked her to clarify, because those are two separate events. She stuttered a bit, but basically all I managed to catch was "TargA... Rossi... YoonYJ" and stream cheating. I said that's the first I ever heard about it, and asked for more information. She wasn't able to provide anything.
There was about an hour of both of us yelling at oneanother. I expressed my frustration at her (and her sister) attacking me, my credibility, my girlfriend, and even my girlfriends' parents. I pointed out that she has caused significant damage to some friendships I valued highly.
We reached the point where no-one had anything left to say, and she asked me to go on stream and "admit to my lies." I told her I wasn't willing to admit to anything, except the fact that I did not complete the Australian Qualifiers within the proposed schedule. However, I was operating under the direction of Team AZK, so I'm not really sure how it's a problem. I explained that the contract was merely a formality to protect the players, because numerous people contacted me prior to the event, warning me that there was a high likelihood of players being screwed over.
She continued to pressure me into giving a statement right now, whilst I said I'd rather have some time to brush up on the event and go over all my correspondence. It's been over a year and a half since the event, and I've run over 25 events since then. My memory is pretty damn foggy. She refused to accept this though. She told me she had a 1 hour deadline, and she needed it now. I refused. I told her I'd be happy to proceed with the stream on Wednesday night as originally planned.
She ended the call, and within 30 minutes, the thread appeared on Team Liquid: Gus Ledesma, the Silent Hero of the PPSL.
So scrolling down to the "Truth in a nutshell" segment, she makes a few claims regarding myself and YoonYJ:
• Made false claims about players beings bribed
• Made misleading statements about the contract, who it was signed by, cropped information, expired contract.
• Missed the cut off date to send player information. 8th October passport from players didn’t arrive until the 2nd November.
• Postponed the tournament in breach of contract to delay so mOOnGLaDe could participate
• Dox was aware of stream cheating, but went ahead with the results. (This is the only information that is solely based on CD's verbal testimony and not a screenshot)
• Contacted IGN to “expose” PPSL
• Did interviews, wrote articles to vilify Gus Ledesma
So in response to all of the above points:
Gus Ledesma offered mOOnGLaDe a spot in the PPSL (Oct 30th, after failing to qualify) if he represented Team AZK for 3 months. This is fact. It came directly to me from mOOnGLaDe's phone. Unfortunately, I no longer have the text message. New phone. CheekyDuck admitted to me during our Skype conversation that she encouraged Andy to go ahead with it though. No false claims were made.
No misleading statements were made about the contract. Gus Ledesma authorised the signature of the contract. Yes the image was cropped, to include the relevant information. No-one from AZK ever said anything about the contract expiring. This is the first time anyone has suggested such a thing. I did not adhere to the draft schedule outlined in the contract, as advised by Team AZK.
Passport stuff. This was none of my responsibility, but during our conversation CheekyDuck tried to suggest that this was "another area where I failed to hold up my end of the contract."
Yes the tournament was postponed so that mOOnGLaDe could participate. One could argue it was a breach of contract, but I was just acting under the decision of Team AZK.
I knew nothing about stream cheating, and did no such thing. This is 100% fabrication. Rossi is one of the most active & successful LAN participants in Australia. I even told CheekyDuck on Skype that I knew nothing about any stream cheating. She chose to ignore that statement entirely.
Pretty sure the whole PPSL drama advertised itself. She's adamant that I sent a copy of the "invalid contract" to IGN and asked them to pull out of the event or something. No idea.
I wrote a blog and agreed to an interview because I wanted to share my perspective on the whole matter. I'm not the one who "vilified" him; he chose to do that with his own actions & decisions. And CheekyDuck admitting that she told him not to defend himself in the public eye sure didn't help.
Not sure what the Skype logs are supposed to be demonstrating either. Unfortunately I no longer have these logs, I've been through 3 computers since then and mine only go back as far as September 2012.
YoonYJ quit SC2 last year. He came on Skype today and shared the following logs (from FB I assume):
CD: You are so angry over being disrepected, you guys screwed over perfectly legit people
YYJ: "YYJ/Dox posts are full of lies and twisted truths"
YYJ: ahaha dont know where u got this
YYJ: lol
YYJ: never lied about a thing
YYJ: but what youre writing is really gonna backfire on you
YYJ: its not true
YYJ: youre just led by your emotions
All throughout the TL thread, people like pdd and UHF constantly highlight the fact that the figures add up. There is a very tiny amount of money unaccounted for, but nothing suggests that Amanda stole $5000+ like CheekyDuck claims. She has zero evidence to prove this. Each time she is asked to respond to this, she says "Try again with a calculator" or "Do the math." She also says she's withholding information. There was a long post from AvoiderDragon essentially countering all her points. She pretty much ignores it all and focuses on the fact that I was apparently "trying to steal the lime light and taking credit for someones hard work." She's referring to a handful of contributions to Liquipedia. Literally everything she says about me in this post is a mystery to me. No idea what print stuff she's referring to. I never associated myself with the PPSL event. I only said I was running the Australian Qualifiers. And I did, 100%. She never called me on Skype about stream cheating. Apparently I gained a lot from the PPSL fallout, she seems to think this is what created Nv. I don't understand how the two are connected. She often takes statements and twists them to vilify me. Ironic!
Gorlin's post pretty much sums it up.
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On April 17 2013 14:57 -CheekyDuck- wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 17 2013 14:45 UHF wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 14:42 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
so 30 days then? look the stream was pulled because of the sc2sea post. David thing admits that in email. doesn't have anything to do with internet issues. Could you please repost where David explicitly admits in an email that the stream was removed due to the post on sc2sea, as I can't seem to find it. this was one of the last emails from David Ting. the email before he was wishing us luck Day2! David doesn't answer calls or respond to the email about how day2 went better. please. as you can see it links the YYJ post. thats why the dox contract is so important. its just not fair.
Again, as I stated, just post the contract. You saying it's not fair when there may have been (most likely there was) a breach of their agreement via this doesn't excuse what you think is fair or not. Let us read it if you can't handle/interpret it,
He's asking Gus to explain, did gus email an explanation in black and white? You are not posting his response so I am doubtful Gus even made an email to explain to David Ting. So how is it "not fair".
Not to go and assume what IPL/IGN did, but I would go as far as say they could have pulled out anytime. Day 1 was abysmal, and even day 2 was for me. Although the stream was a bit more stable, it was only viewable in 360p but still looked in between 240p and 360p.
And I think IPL even had to recast the bouts via replays and those were more than watchable.
So post the contract and we will gladly interpret it, or is there something you don't want us to see in the damned contract which would show that IGN had every right to pull out of PPSL and even had no obligation anymore to even pony up the remaining 50% balance?
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On April 17 2013 14:57 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 14:45 UHF wrote:On April 17 2013 14:42 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
so 30 days then? look the stream was pulled because of the sc2sea post. David thing admits that in email. doesn't have anything to do with internet issues. Could you please repost where David explicitly admits in an email that the stream was removed due to the post on sc2sea, as I can't seem to find it. this was one of the last emails from David Ting. the email before he was wishing us luck Day2! David doesn't answer calls or respond to the email about how day2 went better. please. as you can see it links the YYJ post. thats why the dox contract is so important. its just not fair.
You've posted this several times, and yet all it shows is that David Ting wants to know the explanation of why YYJ didn't attend when the contract was for them to send two players to PPSL. Asking for explanations is not evidence of a cause.
Also, I haven't seen anything that suggests that the delay to the tournament that Dox ran is enough cause to terminate the contract. Yes, it was a breach (even if it was discussed between them to delay it, the contract wasn't updated), but a breach doesn't necessarily give justification to allow termination (in legal speak, not all breaches are fundamental breaches).
The 'Dox' contract: + Show Spoiler +
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On April 17 2013 15:07 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 15:02 HiTeK532 wrote:On April 17 2013 14:53 Fyrewolf wrote:On April 17 2013 13:04 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
(stream cheating) because it is a major issue in the thread, I would like to clarify and confess that it was my fault that YYJ's ticket was not immediately issued with Rossi's. I informed Dox and Gus and blew the whistle that "stream cheating" occurred. It was based on information i received in confidence from YYJ. My intention was to force a justified rematch that would of benefited mOOnglaDe and my sister. (when i get home i will post the screen shot from skype with the time stamp) You say you got the information about possible streamcheating from YYJ. And yet, in the skype log you posted, when you talk about it, he says he doesn't think it was stream cheating? [10/29/2011 9:45:46 PM] the cheekyduck: look yoon, the thing is rossi was stream cheating [10/29/2011 9:45:53 PM] Yojun Yoon: wtf [10/29/2011 9:45:55 PM] the cheekyduck: so gus i already pissed [10/29/2011 9:45:59 PM] Yojun Yoon: how do you know [10/29/2011 9:46:01 PM] Yojun Yoon: wtf ? [10/29/2011 9:46:09 PM] the cheekyduck: yeah i saw tarossi in my chat box [10/29/2011 9:46:23 PM] Yojun Yoon: nono [10/29/2011 9:46:27 PM] Yojun Yoon: dont think it was Stream cheating is a serious accusation that can ruin a person's esports career. If this lame chatlog is the only kind of evidence you shouldn't have posted that part into a public forum (if it was just private speculation you should have edited and left it private) to begin with. If there are other logs with something more concrete you should have posted those first if you wanted to make a real accusation, but if this kind of hearsay is all there is, then making such accusations public in this thread is pretty bullshit. Doesn't TL typically have standards for this type of thing I've seen people get banned for stream cheating/hacking accusations with more evidence than this. The fact that this has stood for so long without it being edited out is worrying. How often do we see people start e-mailing sponsors based off knee jerk reactions to reading something like this. Why didn't YYJ get ticket? this is why! it doesn't matter if it was true or not, the fact is that rossi was in the stream chat, i thought he was cheating, i talked to yyj he said nono, its not him. and then told me they had a cheating pack. put then he could of been making it up. either way, i went to gus and tried to get a rematch. YYJ's ticket was in dispute, he wrote a blog on sc2sea, IGN shut ppsl down, Amanda got sponsorship money and donations from the comunity.
Did you even read my post? It had nothing to do with YYJ It has nothing to do with any plane tickets.
Your accusing a player of cheating and your evidence to him doing consists of you saying he was in the stream chat and another player saying he didn't think he was cheating. Then you state that he was cheating as if your evidence makes it an indisputable fact.
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On April 17 2013 15:18 lisward wrote:Taken from Dox's Blog, so that you guys can see his response to Cheekyduck.Tuesday, 16 April 2013 How To Save A Life Well. What a wild couple of days.
For the sake of clarity, if you aren't going to lock the initial post then at least quote Dox' reply in full in it so there's some (lol) pretense of objectivity.
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Well, unfortunately she has already made it clear she is trying to right her wrong, serious guilt for her premature whistle blowing to get her sister's boyfriend a rematch ( no bias for practically family member right?). Just seems like her conscience couldn't handle the guilt anymore and is trying to palm it off using this what seems to be a quickly diffusing Amanda debacle. As many people have said being in a stream chat box proves nothing, many people just mute/pause streams rather then closing. He lost, you shouldn't have got so emotionally attached to a close one in a professional work environment.
Shame, used to be cool.
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Cheeky, please understand that whether or not you disprove Gus Ledesma as a thief, he still was very poor at managing this entire process, before and after the event. This poor management led to one or two people being out of pocket. Whether or not the money that is out of pocket was 'stolen' by Gus is irrelevant. It's a long time ago. This has happened over a dozen times in South-East Asia eSports alone.
This thread has nowhere to go. You need to apologise to Amanda, Rossi and Dox immediately and leave this alone, because there is not one person on the entire internet who is on your side, apart from Gus.
But then again, the idiot doesn't have a computer anymore, does he?
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On April 17 2013 14:57 -CheekyDuck- wrote:this was one of the last emails from David Ting. the email before he was wishing us luck Day2! David doesn't answer calls or respond to the email about how day2 went better.
How does this even remotely translate into David Ting admitting he pulled the stream based on the post of sc2sea?
It's just another one of your cherry-picked images used to bolster your accusations, when in reality it's not even remotely close to what you say it is. The silly thing is, I could pick apart your accusations for days with the amount of holes that are littered through it. I just don't understand what the point of it all is - it all arrives back at Gus.
Can you please at least post the contract that Gus and IGN had, so we can see exactly the details behind the whole situation. That way we can at least see a bigger picture instead of the bits you've conveniently picked out.
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This thread seems so pointless...why it was allowed to be presented 1.5 year later boggles my mind a bit.
*It's clearly biased in it's presentation
*The evidence is weak at best and open to scrutiny.
*It does nothing to prove anyone accused of wrong doing is innocent or anyone innocent did anything wrong.
That's really all that seems to matter here....Maybe Amanda got money she shouldn't of....maybe she didn't. Gus still clearly ran things poorly...so who the heck cares? If this evidence is really so compelling it proves wrong doing take it to the right authorities.
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On April 17 2013 15:50 iMSundeR wrote:
You need to apologise to Amanda
I'm beginning to think that Amanda is the worst victim out of this. I just read through the Facebook conversation posted by CheekyDuck in the OP, and CD basically hounds her to get her to admit to stealing, then accuses her of lying, having no conscience, tells her she's "a bad person", and basically ends it with "i only hope they treat you as kindly as they treated Gus". And the result of all this is that at most there's ~$800 missing (out of $12,000), which could be down to fees and different rates being used. I'm just surprised that Amanda managed to keep calm during all the accusations and let CD say whatever she wanted to.
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On April 17 2013 15:03 -CheekyDuck- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 14:53 Fyrewolf wrote:On April 17 2013 13:04 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
(stream cheating) because it is a major issue in the thread, I would like to clarify and confess that it was my fault that YYJ's ticket was not immediately issued with Rossi's. I informed Dox and Gus and blew the whistle that "stream cheating" occurred. It was based on information i received in confidence from YYJ. My intention was to force a justified rematch that would of benefited mOOnglaDe and my sister. (when i get home i will post the screen shot from skype with the time stamp) You say you got the information about possible streamcheating from YYJ. And yet, in the skype log you posted, when you talk about it, he says he doesn't think it was stream cheating? [10/29/2011 9:45:46 PM] the cheekyduck: look yoon, the thing is rossi was stream cheating [10/29/2011 9:45:53 PM] Yojun Yoon: wtf [10/29/2011 9:45:55 PM] the cheekyduck: so gus i already pissed [10/29/2011 9:45:59 PM] Yojun Yoon: how do you know [10/29/2011 9:46:01 PM] Yojun Yoon: wtf ? [10/29/2011 9:46:09 PM] the cheekyduck: yeah i saw tarossi in my chat box [10/29/2011 9:46:23 PM] Yojun Yoon: nono [10/29/2011 9:46:27 PM] Yojun Yoon: dont think it was Stream cheating is a serious accusation that can ruin a person's esports career. If this lame chatlog is the only kind of evidence you shouldn't have posted that part into a public forum (if it was just private speculation you should have edited and left it private) to begin with. If there are other logs with something more concrete you should have posted those first if you wanted to make a real accusation, but if this kind of hearsay is all there is, then making such accusations public in this thread is pretty bullshit. yes i was very suspitious, thais was before me and YYJ spoke in person. YYJ is so keen to post parts of my chat logs, (dox blog) why doesn't he post the conversation he had with BEE on skype that black and white caused this!
You caused this, you brought it up... no one else had ever heard of allegations of Rossi stream cheating and the only 'evidence' is some mystical chat log between Livibee and YYJ which no one else has ever seen or heard about. Not to mention that Livibee said on 15/4 on sc2sea.com chat that she had 'lost' the chatlog.
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It's quite the interesting read, but I believe this thread needs to be closed because too many peoples' livelihoods are at risk of being or are already being affected. This is not the court room, so we really shouldn't be judging anyone even if there is insurmountable evidence, because who knows, maybe there's evidence being withheld back that may only show up in court? I do not want to see a community go on another witch hunt because it always ends up with someone that gets screwed.
CheekyDuck, this is all great information which you have compiled and provided to the community, but if you were planning to incite the community to jump into action and "roast" someone, please don't. The behind-the-scenes information was more than enough to show us that maybe this wasn't all of Gus's fault, but it went too far with Rossi being accused of stream-cheating and Dox taking the lime-light of PPSL. You are right when you said that the people need to know the truth, but there can be many truths in which you only explored one facet of it. It's become hard to take you seriously because you are trying too hard now.
I usually don't post, but when something big like the potential for someone like Rossi's career to be damaged and Dox and Amanda are under fire (because you incited it), I have to say that you should stop and if you are really adamant about bringing this to justice, use the court room and not the community. I'm not sure you provided this amount of information just so that we could look at it and be in awe. You have another motive.
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On April 17 2013 15:07 -CheekyDuck- wrote:
Why didn't YYJ get ticket? this is why! it doesn't matter if it was true or not, the fact is that rossi was in the stream chat, i thought he was cheating, i talked to yyj he said nono, its not him.
Wow, that's irresponsible.
You "thought" he was stream cheating, yet you put him on blast?
Not only you potentially ruin someone's SC2 career, you could possibly get NV to lose their sponsors because of your careless accusations.
If the event that they (Rossi, Team NV) lose their sponsorship/s because of your false accusations, you could be held accountable. I'm not sure if the rules apply here in Australia, but in USA that's called "Defamation".
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TLADT24920 Posts
I don't know much about PPSL and I must've somehow missed the drama when it all went down so I figured that reading this thread would help out. The OP though, was so painful to read. As already mentioned, might be detailed to some degree, but it does not flow and when you have 0 idea of what's went down, it's like trying to connect a ton of dots all over the place. I do think I got a good idea of what went down based on the posters who went through the effort to clarify the situation so many thanks to you guys!
I can't help but notice a personal vendetta(right term?). I mean, no evidence for stream cheating other than an assumption which somehow became a fact that can hurt a player's career. You even go as far as mentioning that you fought vigorously to get a rematch for moonglade then admit that he was dating your sister so there was incentive there. Likewise, those facebook posts in Dox's blog were just ridiculous. I mean, you accused him of wrong doing then said he had two questions to answer but you just kept talking smack talking and not even asked them so what was the point of even starting that post? bringing attention to the issue? truth?
Also, your OP seemed extremely biased towards Gus. I mean, the thread title before it got changed to calling him a hero etc... with poor evidence to boot. Whatever happened to presenting the evidence and remaining objective then letting people decide on it? As soon as you took it upon yourself to fix Gus' reputation, you automatically lost your objectivity.Personally, I think it's quite possible that he just mismanaged everything and in turn, that caused issues. From everything I've read, that's what I'm leaning towards however bringing other people whether it's IGN members, team members or Amanda herself and blaming them for the issues or in Amanda's case, for stealing money when the evidence has been proven to be false is just flat out wrong. Even reading through your facebook chat with Amanda, it felt less of a fact finding mission and more of an interrogation since you already determined by that point that she was guilty. Innocent until proven guilty wasn't applied there ><
Finally, I do feel like you want justice in the end but the way you went about it, ie your tactics were plain bad. If you are so sure of the truth, that Amanda stole, etc... then at least give us all the information including contracts, all emails, etc... so that we can read it and agree as a community whether what you say took place, if it infact did. As it stands, seems like most disagree with you and your points heavily countered. Your move?
Edit: Apologizes if I wrote anything wrong, complex case ^^
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Oh wow this is still open. Don't know what there is really left to discuss.
- Amanda's figures contain an $800 discrepancy, which could be attributed to a multitude of costs because we don't know every single cost incurred, especially interest charges and exchange rates.
- Evidence trying to show Dox / Rossi / Team NV as "evil" is pathetic, with people not being convinced at all.
- Proves Gus was incompetent at organising an event.
Since no one is still focusing on the Amanda issue (I guess because figures prove it's a non-issue) the new focus is on Dox and his team colluding with IGN to kill the PPSL and increase Dox's standing in the community. The poor evidence presented cannot support this at all.
It seems she is pissed off and trying to grasp at any possible means to "get back" at people that she thinks wronged her / Gus. Thing is the majority of people are not convinced and I think the majority would agree that this has backfired on her reputation and character instead.
I hope this gets closed soon, and she can abuse Dox and co. in private if that is what she wishes to do. The majority of the community isn't siding with her at all.
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This thread is retarded. The "evidence" is non-existent and it's interpreted wrong in the OP. This whole thing is more of a personal attack than anything else. It seems CD is blindly believing everything Gus has said to her even though the "evidence" is contradictory. Also the stream cheating accusations should be removed as there's even less proof of it.
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I think we can all get behind the fact that this thread is dumb. I also think the OP should refrain from personally attacking people, their girlfriends and their girlfriend's family members on Facebook or any other public forum. There is so little evidence of what that supports her theory that this Gus guy was the hero of the event and this seems to be a lot of people yelling about math.
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Mods pls close thread? This is just an unnecessary cat fight. Lol
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On April 17 2013 12:20 -CheekyDuck- wrote:+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +Dox you said you were going to come forward and do the right thing. Many people did. Gus did not steal the money, and was not solely responsible for the claims made in the YYJ post that shut down the event, Yes, while my writing may be over emotional, please allow me some time to put everything together more clearly. and it is my fault that i didn't present the information in an understandable way. but to answer the questions below on what the emails say. David- Verbal promises about production, stream support, etc.
+ Show Spoiler +Most of the things mentioned are factual; I wouldn't necessarily call it a verbal promise or contract, but Gus did accept the conditions with the understanding that those amenities would be provided, perhaps causing him to overestimate the scale of the event.
Well thank-you for agreeing that there was an understanding that resources would be provided
- Retraction of verbal promise.
+ Show Spoiler +Minor nitpick: Cheeky's explanation doesn't match up with the screenshot. David clearly says "I have made it pretty clear when we met that my team is fairly stretched...", meaning that David addressed this change in their arrangement prior to the email. Probably at IPL 3 in Atlantic City, from the 6th of October to the 9th of October.
Once the event for IPL3 happened, there was no funding to send a support team, but the point still stands that the PPSL moved the date which allowed the IPL3 to have the players they wanted to play.
So another deal was discussed, if his staff cannot come to the event, then more money will be needed (20K was agreed upon)
- Changing amount of funding, denied additional funding and refused release of funding.
+ Show Spoiler +From what I can gather, it went from 12k -> 29.5k -> 20k -> 12k. I'm not sure where David ever promised 29.5k (12k sponsorship + 17.5k extras). He said he was committed, but he required a call to formalize the terms. I'm assuming that this call resulted in the figure being revised to 20k (hard to tell without date of skype call).
From the contract, we know that this figure was actually 14500 (12000 sponsorship + 2500 venue cancellation). It's important to note that he never explicitly confirms the 20k amount in the interview. He says, verbatim: "If I recall correctly 20k, I think..." There's no way of truly knowing whether 20k was the agreed-upon amount as there is no contract.
The additional funding was apparently something David addressed in an earlier email or conversation, as he responds with "As I have explained to you..." Gus apparently knew beforehand that only half the funds would be released until after the event. At this point, the accompanying text really doesn't correspond to the screenshots of emails. How is David unreachable on Nov 3rd if he's having this series of emails with Gus on that day?
As Gus was not the only manager of PPSL, this call happened without Gus, the manager txt's Gus that 20k is now the new agreement. (also David ting does a video interview and states that 20k was the agreed funding)
a written contract for ipl staff or extra money was not implemented, this resulted in IPL being able to legally back out of the verbal commitments (or understandings)
ipl3-(oct) PPSl (nov) not much time
Gus tires to contact everyone he knows at IGN, as funding is a real issue and YYJ wants to be flown to Manila.
David has taken offense to this, and Gus apologies and points out that if he checks the time stamp on the other emails that he contacted David Ting first. (David Ting from the email history after the event does in fact never reply to Gus directly unless it is through Amanda)
- Cancelling stream support because of SC2Sea Post.
+ Show Spoiler +Uh, no. Where does it say that in the email? David refers to the incident as a breach of contract, and asks for an explanation. Where is Gus's explanation? Why is that email missing?
- Ignoring Gus's emails and calls.
+ Show Spoiler +Obviously, the only person who can truly verify this is David himself. By the time Gus requests the rest of the funds (the half that was withheld until after the event), the PPSL was a complete disaster, Gus had conducted himself in the most unprofessional manner and calling them "mix-ups" didn't even begin to cover it.
No i have the emails from Gunrun explains to David Ting they had major issues with *blah* *blah* but its going good.
people forget that Day2 was great, only minor hicups and a lot of issues solved.
David Ting cleary states enjoy day 2.
But when the post of sc2sea is sent to David, he pulls the event from ipl stream.
+ Show Spoiler +
Gus calls on the mobile and i think Skype. he sends an email, but i am told that david ting is now ignoring him (most likely due to the internet hate)
+ Show Spoiler +
- Many posts were made to conceal IPL involvement.
+ Show Spoiler +How so? I would say that David's interview summed it up pretty nicely.
they said there involvement was limited to funding and provided a stream, as you can hear from the recording, email, this is not the case.
- False statements about suggestions to focus on stream/online component.
+ Show Spoiler +I don't know how you can prove that David didn't suggest any of that through a phone call, or in person.
TL;DR: David reduces his sponsorship due to financial constraints, Gus fails to adapt accordingly. Yes but there are bigger issues, like David freezing the funds requested by Amanda (imaging if Qantas or flight center did that) A debt to a flight agency (if lending a 12k line of credit is normal as stated by amanda, then they can afford to wait) can be put on a payment plan, staff however, and hotel rooms are more of an immediate expense. David did give "recommendations" on who he did and didNOT want at the event. i don't think that is fair to post for obvious reasons. Alex- "PPSL was never waiting for money from us."
+ Show Spoiler + Full quote: "... our agreement with the PPSL included a schedule for payments which we were up to date on - PPSL was never waiting for money from us." So, actually a true statement.
Not if you include the "understandings" as you put it, or the verbal contract. but Gus was waitng for the other 50% when the funds were frozen by David ting on information supplied by amanda there is no dispute there, that did happen. to say they were "never" waiting is not a fair statement. They were waiting for lots of things, support, extra money, David ting.
- "Providing a streaming channel."
+ Show Spoiler +... And funds, which is true. They decided to pull it because it was a disaster.
- "Taking its winner to IPL 4"
+ Show Spoiler +
this is really unture, the issues of the stream were raised in advance, they pulled because of a simple sc2sea.com post and the claims made, the event itself was given the chance to prove itself before then.
- "Only caster we were aware of was Tastosis".
+ Show Spoiler +Hard to verify, but Tastosis was the only caster duo mentioned in the email for the $3000 talent fee.
i need time to find the screen shot, but we (my sister and I) did a lot of work for AZK, and it is not uncommon for us to work unpaid. But they were informed that 2 AZK caster were to be at the event, and that i did cast most of the AZK ipl4 qualifiers online with them watching.
- "... do not feel confident PPSL can present a watchable product..." "... taken away their streaming privileges..."
+ Show Spoiler +Again, I don't know how you can say that this is a lie.
If they didn't believe, why would David ting say this?
- Alex told IPL about YYJ situation, causing stream cancellation.
+ Show Spoiler +No evidence for this whatsoever. Correlation does not imply causation, and there were a slew of problems that led to this outcome.
TL;DR: Alex, as an employee, communicates his current understanding of the situation to the community and does his job. well this was my mistake, Alex should be changed to Josh. but the point is still valid. all problems were communicated with IGN ahead of time, having a stream delayed is expected, running an event with little to no funding was also expected and a non issue. bribing players, replacing players, and breaking contact are a big issue. DoxThis is where things start to get petty... - Didn't know about IPL until September 28th.
+ Show Spoiler +What date was the original contract? How do we know this was the original contract and not the updated one? I'm not questioning if you modified it, I'm questioning if it's provided in the right context.
there are 4 contracts i think, Gus was forwarded them (Gus never signed them)
but the dates for when the event needed to be finished had stayed the same. (the guy that signed the contract wanted the event canceled because the flight prices were too expensive, because they didn't finish the event on time) somewhat of this is reflected in my skype conversation to dox.
- Made misleading comments about contract details.
+ Show Spoiler +See above, I don't know how a picture of an alleged original contract proves anything. Is there a signed one?
The contract is cropped and circled. giving the idea that AZK didn;t pay up on time, didn't give the 2 tickets that they were owed.
now if you see the contract in its whole, there is a non disclosure etc. there is also the responsibilities that dox needs to preform, and dates that the events need to be finished by.
9th of october, this was delayed to let mOOnglaDe play, as he is a close friend of DOX. the event finished on the 28th oct.
it would be impossible to buy flights on the 24th oct (this was there deadline, they believed they would get players names by the 9th oct)
now passport information didn't come until the 2 NOV, i think everyone needs to accept this was just unfortunate and with the "sonny go incident" bickering of the wiki, it was management communication and stubbornness that caused this. Being part of AZK i told them both Dox and YYJ that YYJ could not go because the event was delayed and the prices are too expensive.
Dox was also informed of the money azk was willing to spend on tickets.
- Contract wasn't honoured.
+ Show Spoiler +Articles 5, 11 and 12 of the limited terms and conditions for services covers this, if Gus was unhappy with the situation he should've acted on it. Also, not sure where you're getting the passport deadline date of 8th October (in the contract, the tournament ends by the 9th) and the 2nd November date isn't sourced.
Sorry - 9th of october is when the event is meant to be completed, this was delayed to let mOOnglaDe play, as he is a close friend of DOX. the event finished on the 28th oct.
it would be impossible to buy flights on the 24th oct (this was there deadline, they believed they would get players names by the 9th oct and be able to get the tickets at latest 24th)
now passport information didn't come until the 2 NOV
and ill post that screen shot here:
- Gus bribing Moonglade.
+ Show Spoiler +How was this proved/disproved in any way? Why is this even relevant?
I have been working to get this removed from the internet.
I was directly involved (before the dox event) to secure him a ticket. It was selfish of me to try and secure our family holiday.
Andy and my Sister are dating, so i approached team AZK management with Andy to negotiate terms as i had information early that violet was dropped so i saw an opportunity.
Dox made the claim, and the internet ran with it. when you see: Andy's name removed on request. Thats us girls yelling at Andy to not let those lies be printed.
its relevant because it caused a major witch hunt.
- Streamcheating knowledge.
+ Show Spoiler +Should be deleted. You said yourself: solely based on verbal testimony, or, thin air. This is actually the most outrageous part.
Yoon can always come forward and post his skype logs to bee.
- Contacted IGN about PPSL.
+ Show Spoiler +
Dox has denied doing this.
- Vilified Gus.
+ Show Spoiler +Honestly, Gus did himself no favours by pulling a disappearing act. Everyone in this topic seems to be echoing similar sentiments. Gus was more than welcome to share his side of the story, but chose to run.
you come forward and no one gets paid. everyone including myself believe amanda's debt was real. He did not sell out or rat on a single person publicity if i remember.
i was there and he did not run away. he was late to the hotel, expenses from clive and amanda were meant to be dealt with in team, it was a non issue as i already offered to foot the bill when i arrived in the morning. Everything about him disappearing is him being ignored by people or people threatening his life. His interview, no one wanted a sorry, they wanted to know why he stole the money, its hard to explain that there was no money and to not make anyone else look bad and or by saying any incriminating statements about parties your still hoping will cough up the dough.
TL;DR: Dox runs a qualifier later than planned, Gus allows it and proceeds to paints himself into a corner promising flights with money he simply doesn't have. Untrue, he told them no. I was the middle person, i told them no. i pressured Gus into asking IGN, and talked YYJ into really wanting to go, and ask IGN and i talked to DOX to ask IGN. I asked Amanda who is "suppose" to be a travel agent, she said yes, then later said it was too expensive but then told Gus the flights are all booked. Gus said he will try to get YYJ to go, since Dox told him he was going. YYJ+ Show Spoiler +That full chatlog shouldn't have been posted. It was personal, ugly and it offered nothing but a glimpse into the former friendship of two individuals. Completely unnecessary.
YYJ is doing this because he is offended. I was the one who was also giving YYJ information, information that was misrepresented in the sc2sea post.
TL;DR: YYJ is led to believe that he'll be going to the PPSL by Gus, finds out last minute that isn't the case, is understandably upset and comes to a misguided conclusion on how events unfolded.
Not if you give your passport last minute. NOV2 and the event is the 9th? CheekyDuck+ Show Spoiler +You were involved to the extent that I question your ability to be impartial. The way you hounded Amanda and treated her as guilty before proven innocent was disgusting. You blame: - David "going back on his word" and changing sponsorship.
+ Show Spoiler +He's free to change the level of his commitment up until the agreed-upon contract, there's nothing wrong with that. Gus was more dishonest in his attempts to change the terms of payment from his sponsor to compensate for his poor planning.
Gus was naive to believe and didn't consider someone going back on there word.
The contract was verbally discussed changes because the ipl support team to run the event was pulled.
(this was all done from concept to completion in roughly 6 months, when IPL name was attached, they wanted the big casters, an expense that Gus clearly states they cannot afford)
- Alex "maliciously and knowingly" spreading misinformation.
+ Show Spoiler +
IGN contact was Josh, but alex should have been privy to the emails that amanda admitted she was not going to jail. or the emails of david ting in general.
- Dox delaying the event causing unforeseen funding limitations.
+ Show Spoiler +Did Gus even have the funds to send more than one player from the Australian qualifiers to begin with? Or did he not account for an unexpected expense like a contractual obligation and blow it all on goodie bags and uniforms?
The funds we doubled because of the delay, so 2 tickets for the price of one.
Dox was given there expectations of flight costs. which had nothing to do with Gus as he was not sponsoring these flights.
- YYJ for not sending his passport in time.
+ Show Spoiler +Yet Gus inconspicuously escapes blame for his botched handling by straight up lying to a player for a week. Not to mention that a player from the same qualifier was still able to attend; did they both send their passports in at significantly different times?
He didn't lie. how can you say that the mOOnglaDe thing doens't matter and then you bring it up here.
I was in talks to get all 3 players to go, that was my intention. mOOnglaDe would of been sponsored by a personal sponsor and was not getting paid for by Gus. Like i said in my chat to DOX, he would take Violets spot.
- Amanda saying the bookings were closed. And for being a mastermind criminal with a ridiculously low profit margin.
+ Show Spoiler +If the bookings are closed, they're closed. This is a moot point if the previous two points are true and Gus doesn't have the money anyway.
she told me the were $5000 and YYJ that it was $5000, but told Gus it was closed.
but i will go more into this later as i did have trouble presenting this information.
He didn't have the money because Amanda got david ting to freeze the funds.
deals were on a 50/50 and you are correct in that he didnt have the money personally but other managers behind the scenes did (and were happy to pay for expenses they saw as valid).
- YYJ and Dox for "ratting" PPSL out and resulting in sponsorship withdrawal.
+ Show Spoiler +From what I've read the flights were booked in early November, YYJ addressed Gus late October. Gus didn't want to pay for him at that time, but decided to see if he could fit him in last minute. He couldn't. He seemingly gave YYJ's spot in the tournament to NEXSickness, who just happened to be conveniently flown in, and then blamed funding shortfall on IPL. Coincidence or not, you can see how bad that looks.
yes thats what it looks like. and thats what they made it look like.
but here it is:
Gus didn't have much involvement with the YYJ flights, the other managers didn't want to pay due to the reason i stated above, and i informed them of those reasons.
(there were other avenues i presented to get a RE, but Targa was an Australian resident but his finland flag confused me on the wiki)
I harass the shit out of Gus, every day while i was there to send YYJ (this was after i told andy, gus, dox what YYJ told me and there was no time for a RE)
no one took YYJ's spot. the only spot taken is VIOLETS.
Gus was told YYJ was a very good player, but was worried about the other issues, tried his best to get a ticket (from his own pocket).
TL;DR: Gus is not malicious, but he is not innocent either. He is merely incompetent (evident by numerous comments made in this very thread) and still deserves the lion's share of the blame. He was insistent on receiving full credit for the outcome of this event, and I truly hope he continues to do so.
He gave a big speech the night before, i remember he said something like: I know i put my name over this, and i am getting the credit, but don't worry because if this go bad, i'll also take the blame. And he kept his word imo. I believe he is naive and he made decisions based on peoples word and trusted them. He took things for face value and didn't research into depth (like invoices). but he wasn't this mastermind thief, he wasn't a monster. he was a guy that was Part of running an event, that tore itself apart in the end. and no one remembers day 2, which a lot of people overcame many issues and achieved a quality product. But by keeping quiet, people like Amanda can get away with what they have done and look like an innocent victim. .... i can change the stream cheating to. CheekyDuck (with the time stamps) discussed with Gus (player name censored) (names of players and event organisers) that there is stream cheating against mOOnglaDe and that there should be a rematch. because i have a skype screen shot of that. But who cares about stream cheating, it was an online event, the event for such a decent prize should have been live. even if someone is in the stream, you can't 100% prove anything. but this information was why YYJ was more of a reason not getting flown. And Targa, taking games and not wanting to go, really upset AZK.
Sorry, but your formatting is a mess, which makes it really hard to sort out. I'll address them in order.
1) The shortfall in funding is Gus's fault. He was given a certain amount to run the event; he went over it. There is no obligation by IGN as a sponsor to fix his mistakes. Again, David didn't explicitly state that 20k was the target in ther interview; only the contract is proof. Gus knew the schedule of payment.
2) No, that screenshot does not prove that David enjoyed the event. He said good luck and to go out and redeem yourselves. The second screenshot does not prove that David pulled the stream because of SC2Sea. He asked for an explanation.
3) David doesn't reply to Gus as there is serious concern that the money will not go towards expenses. There is no "mysterious" reason, they no longer trusted Gus.
4) Their involvement WAS limited to a stream and funding. What did IGN ultimately provide? A stream and funding. The recordings and emails? Those were initial brainstorming sessions that didn't come to fruition. If anything, Gus was the one who pushed the idea of a Pacific Qualifier.
5) David likely froze the funds because of 3. And whether David gave recommendations on the guest list is irrelevant, I'm questioning why you chose to put his words as false statements, when you can't prove that they were.
And I'm not going to address your points about Alex, because as far as I'm concerned, that's not debatable. Dox's blog post also explains and addresses most of the points you've made here against him and YYJ.
Now we arrive to the list of accusations. I'll refer to them in the order I numbered them.
1) You already know that the changes were communicated, and a verbal contract is not a formal construct unless agreed upon by both parties. Without a copy of the contract itself stipulating such demands, you don't have the grounds to make such a claim (about big-name casters).
2) No. And your point of Amanda/IGN lying about jail-time has been addressed verbatim hundreds of times already.
3) Is it not Gus's event? Was he not in charge? Or are we blaming another mysterious manager? If there was a significant delay then they should've enforced the contract rather than sitting on their hands. It has everything to do with Gus, because he made the ultimate decision not to honor his commitments.
4) Look at YYJ's facebook chats with Gus. Gus said that YYJ was going, when he hadn't even bought him tickets. And I didn't mention Moonglade at all, I'm referring to Rossi. That much should be obvious, as he was the other person who received a seed.
5) You're really not being clear here. The frozen funds have nothing to do with YYJ's situation, as Gus was not entitled to that money until after the event. And if others were willing to pay for the expense, why blame a shortfall in funds if there was no shortfall? Why not blame time constraints, or the closed booking? Any one of those two explanations on their own would have been reasonable, but you're throwing things on the wall to see if it sticks.
6) Wait, now the managers don't want to pay? And uh. Wow. If anything, you've exposed more of your own misdoings than those of others. Pushing a rematch because a flag on a wiki brought you to the wrong conclusion is not a sufficient excuse for that kind of conduct. The very fact that you were looking for any excuse (including allegations of streamcheating) to hold a rematch is indicative of your intentions.
Then let Gus take the blame, because from what you've laid out, there's nothing to indicate he doesn't deserve it. Just because he was willing to be a martyr, it doesn't mean he's a saint. He proved he was incapable of running an event on this scale.
You can change it to that if you'd like, at least it'd remove the names. But let's be clear, there was no evidence of streamcheating. Even if YYJ did say something, it still doesn't prove that there was streamcheating. It seems like the first he heard of it was from you anyway. I hope you have had some time to reflect on the fact that your nepotism caused a lot of unnecessary friction and distraction.
And now you throw in that YYJ wasn't flown in because of some stupid streamcheating allegations that you originated in order to force a rematch? Hoping that a player you had a personal connection with could get in along with another player who was your friend? Wow. Also, who cares if Targa "upset" AZK by having university commitments, it should not affect their professionalism.
You're still presenting the same misconceived, skewed interpretations based on evidence that isn't convincing in the slightest. I hoped that you could provide more conclusive evidence, but it's all still conjecture and assumptions.
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On April 17 2013 13:16 Diamond wrote:
This thread is fucking stupid.
Here here...!
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i do not agree with the focus.
i did hope that people would of come forward.
anyway. regardless.
the money is also inclusive of all taxes and charges. i will need time to reflect the information more clearly to
the true extent in what was taken from the community.
it was my fault that this issue was derailed.
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OK. So I don't know who any of the people involved are nor what this is about except pretty much what I've gathered from this thread. (I followed the BW scene for a couple years but for a variety of reasons, have paid almost no attention to SC2.) I'm not even sure any more how I even arrived at this thread, but it was something like I followed a link from day9's twitter to an AHGL page, from there to the twitters of the "so you think you can cast" winners, from @iM_Zepph twitter to somewhere else, from there to Dox's blog, and from Dox's blog to here.
Point being, I'm probably about as unbiased a source as you could hope for. (I saw Dox's account first, but you have to see one of them first.) Not the most informed by any means, but pretty unbiased nonetheless. (One disclaimer: I didn't look at the posted videos -- it'd have helped if you gave interesting time codes.) I am posting because I like internet arguing. :-) (That's said... half tongue in cheek.)
I do find some of what you say compelling, though I don't have the context to appreciate the significance of much of what you say. However, I definitely think you have well overplayed your hand and lost much of your credibility as a result.
(Actually I feel a bit like I did during the Elon Musk vs NY Times/Broder Tesla review. Broder's review had a number of problems, but I felt that Musk's analysis left open and raised more questions than it answered once you learned more. I didn't feel that either side was particularly credible in that fight.)
Fluffed the numbers, generously rounded up, with a horrible exchange rate that wasn't needed in the first place as the bill was in US. Point (1): the exchange rate. I Googled "historical exchange rate" and the first hit for me is this. According to its data, over the whole of 2011 the highest the rate was ever at was 44.2049, and that was in January. If I exclude January, the highest was 43.8985 and the lowest was at 42.1218. The exchange rate was within 2.5% of 42.85 for February through December. If I ask specifically for the Nov. 3 rate (the date of the email that mentions that figure), Oanda quotes 42.6048, which about one half of one percent lower than the 42.85 rate used.
(Technical information: The above numbers are the "bid" price, which Oanda says "more accurately mimics the rate that you would be charged if you were exchanging money". I'll take their word for that, but I also checked the result using the ask price, which raises the quoted exchange rate. However, it only goes up by a hair; for example, the Nov 3 exchange rate becomes 42.8226, which is less than 1/10 of one percent different from 42.85. The 44.2049, 43.8985, and 42.1218 numbers are weekly averages; the Nov 3 numbers are specific to that day.)
Second, don't be so sure that just because you're quoted prices in USD you'll pay that; I have heard at least one person complain about buying airline tickets and having to pay currency conversion fees when they "shouldn't" have had to and the prices on the web page were quoted in USD. I don't remember what the scenario is though, so I don't know if it's applicable to this situation. (It may have been buying US a domestic fare with a US credit card but while in a different country? That's just a guess though.)
IGN - claimed to cancel stream support because of internet issues, but it was because of Alex Conn (Alex.IGN) informing David Ting on what was posted by Yoon Y J and Derek “Dox” Reball on the website www.sc2sea.comCD gave Derek (Dox) Rebell the contact for Alex (Alex.IGN) Conn that he used to help YYJ effectively shut down the PPSL (YYJ/Dox posts are full of lies and twisted truths) + Show Spoiler +
[Amanda's] invoice quotes from the start keep increasing Wait, you mean increasing from 657,603 (the Nov 3 email) to 715,878 (the table)? Is that really a wonder? The table lists several more people! The 657,603 email is for 18 people, while there are 21 listed in the table.
I have no clue why the new people were added, but it's not like the ticket prices went up. Did the people in the table go to the tournament? Did they have reason to go? Then I don't see what you claim to be improper here.
Um, the price in that post matches the table. In fact, if you look at the outstanding balance, it's 15,000 PHP lower than the table.
so are you telling me an agency is going to give a man 12k line of credit, with no credit card, car, and a job that pays at the time 20k a year? with no contract.
FWIW, I have total available credit of about $7500 with a little under $30K/year income, and that's all unsecured personal credit. Granted, I didn't get that all at once (that's across two credit cards and a line of credit, and I got the CC with the bulk of that $7500 after a couple years). There are brokerage companies that trust their employees with tens of millions of company dollars. Given those facts, I wouldn't be too surprised if the scenario Amanda describes isn't as unusual as you assume.
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she said gus Paid her
200 000php
then corrects herself to 215 000 Php
but as you can see from the receipts she was given 230 000php
all these things, add up. its my fault for posting more of her information without actual information.
at the time we got an exchange of 43. something.
but the bill was in USD put she wanted php.
etickets were altered, and fare information removed, if she is a real travel agent, then she would be fined and most likely lose the IATA account, as this is a serious offense.
most of what i supplied is her accounting documents.
as such i didn't reflect more clearly incoming and outgoing and the time frame she purchased tickets.
I hope to address these issues more clearly.
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On April 17 2013 15:50 iMSundeR wrote:
Cheeky, please understand that whether or not you disprove Gus Ledesma as a thief, he still was very poor at managing this entire process, before and after the event. This poor management led to one or two people being out of pocket. Whether or not the money that is out of pocket was 'stolen' by Gus is irrelevant. It's a long time ago. This has happened over a dozen times in South-East Asia eSports alone.
This thread has nowhere to go. You need to apologise to Amanda, Rossi and Dox immediately and leave this alone, because there is not one person on the entire internet who is on your side, apart from Gus.
But then again, the idiot doesn't have a computer anymore, does he?
This by a million.
Not only does he speak the truth, he has a fucking awesome mustache.
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On April 18 2013 12:04 -CheekyDuck- wrote:+ Show Spoiler +she said gus Paid her
200 000php
then corrects herself to 215 000 Php
but as you can see from the receipts she was given 230 000php
all these things, add up. its my fault for posting more of her information without actual information.
at the time we got an exchange of 43. something.
but the bill was in USD put she wanted php.
etickets were altered, and fare information removed, if she is a real travel agent, then she would be fined and most likely lose the IATA account, as this is a serious offense.
most of what i supplied is her accounting documents.
as such i didn't reflect more clearly incoming and outgoing and the time frame she purchased tickets.
I hope to address these issues more clearly.
I don't know how you got an unaltered ticket in your mind but here's my experience with working with travel agencies or getting tickets from travel agencies. They don't have the price paid to the airline per ticket on there Cheeky. They never do. Why? Well, isn't it obvious, your agreement for payment to the agency is for X amount per head. Why the hell would they show you a Y amount on the ticket itself? You don't need to know that. The reason you engaged the services of a travel agency is so that you don't have to go through the hassle of booking it yourself, correct? So there is an implied understanding that services will be rendered and of course a fee will be charged.
You know, because you keep mentioning alteration of ticket, I had to even cross check a travel agency's booking don or me by a client. It had no price breakdown inside of it, nor was there any indication that a breakdown existed before. That trasnaction is between the airline ad the agency, whatever they put on top of the airlines fares as a service charge is irrelevant. Why? Because they are a company, they are expected to earn something from every official transaction. Unless you are expecting it to be a charity which is not a business.
If you were expecting more competitive rates, then isn't it Gus' job to have canvassed first, compared quotes against doing it online by himself or over the phone with the airline directly? I mean, we aren't kids here who don't know a thing about how the world works, but it is already a known fact ( unless that doesn't apply to your experience) that booking by yourself online or over the phone directly with the airline gives you more competitive rates than working with an agency. That is a fact. The access to directly purchase from airlines via internet or phone has caused a lot of travel agencies to have difficulty earning because people don't use them anymore, unless you have connecting flights.
So don't argue about whether the agency profitted, they are a third party in this, and Amanda is just an employee with a company. That was due the company, not amanda So show us something relevant with regards to what you claim to be significant inconsistencies and the actual amount that you are saying is inconsistent.
Frankly, I was expecting you to already post it today, because if this was really important and you really did come up with "your (flawed) conclusion", you must have organized the numbers at least, even on a piece of paper not just do it all magically in your head. You can't review your head snapshot if you dd it right.
Frankly, this thread should really be closed and think the mods are giving you the chance to post your so called revelation but you are actually putting it off for one reason or another.
I rest my case until you post something relevant or the mods close this mess of a thread
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
I think this thread has run its course. If there is solid evidence then I'm happy to reopen but for the time being that doesn't seem to be the case.
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