In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!
NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
I'm going to quote: I think if you want to complain about moderators only going after Trump supporters while ignoring the left leaning guys in here you're better off complaining ... somewhere else. Never done it myself but I'm pretty sure there's some kind of feedback thread for that.
As I see it you got in here kicking and screaming for no apparent reason and you're the one that with the beef. that's my post. Where in there have I been rude to you? You responded by saying I can't read. I'd personally say that's rude but I don't think anything I've said in my first post was particularly rude? I did return the favor afterwards by calling what you write BS but I'd say that's understandble giving your posting in here and how you treat me.
so please. Go ahead and highlight where I've been "very rude to you". I'm waiting.
On February 11 2018 01:22 Plansix wrote: Making some stawman argument about fictional people calling fictional Trump supporters names...
So after watching that short clip, is it still a strawman argument when I say that left-wing people call Trump supporters racists, sexists, etc... or not? There are basically an endless supply of examples, but if you don't think that is, then I guess we're at a dead end.
I mean, if you read the rest of that speech (literally the paragraph after iirc) it was actually noting that there are large swaths of Trump supporters that we need to reach out to and empathize with.
But nobody actually listened to that part because the deplorable sound bite was just too tasty
I'm going to quote: I think if you want to complain about moderators only going after Trump supporters while ignoring the left leaning guys in here you're better off complaining ... somewhere else. Never done it myself but I'm pretty sure there's some kind of feedback thread for that.
As I see it you got in here kicking and screaming for no apparent reason and you're the one that with the beef. that's my post. Where in there have I been rude to you? You responded by saying I can't read. I'd personally say that's rude but I don't think anything I've said in my first post was particularly rude? I did return the favor afterwards by calling what you write BS but I'd say that's understandble giving your posting in here and how you treat me.
so please. Go ahead and highlight where I've been "very rude to you". I'm waiting.
Pretty clear, imo.
I don't think calling someone "kicking and screaming" is rude... is it? You were doing that after all. Telling someone to learn to read on the other hand is clearly an insult.
I'm going to quote: I think if you want to complain about moderators only going after Trump supporters while ignoring the left leaning guys in here you're better off complaining ... somewhere else. Never done it myself but I'm pretty sure there's some kind of feedback thread for that.
As I see it you got in here kicking and screaming for no apparent reason and you're the one that with the beef. that's my post. Where in there have I been rude to you? You responded by saying I can't read. I'd personally say that's rude but I don't think anything I've said in my first post was particularly rude? I did return the favor afterwards by calling what you write BS but I'd say that's understandble giving your posting in here and how you treat me.
so please. Go ahead and highlight where I've been "very rude to you". I'm waiting.
Pretty clear, imo.
I don't think calling someone "kicking and screaming" is rude... is it? You were doing that after all. Telling someone to learn to read on the other hand is clearly an insult.
it would be considered a bit rude if it were false imho (it's kinda like saying someone is throwing a tantrum); if it's true as in this case tha'ts another story. it's not a priori rude (a priori isn't quite right, but I can't remember what would fit) ; at least not much. since he won't recognize he's doing so, he will consider it rude.
I'm going to quote: I think if you want to complain about moderators only going after Trump supporters while ignoring the left leaning guys in here you're better off complaining ... somewhere else. Never done it myself but I'm pretty sure there's some kind of feedback thread for that.
As I see it you got in here kicking and screaming for no apparent reason and you're the one that with the beef. that's my post. Where in there have I been rude to you? You responded by saying I can't read. I'd personally say that's rude but I don't think anything I've said in my first post was particularly rude? I did return the favor afterwards by calling what you write BS but I'd say that's understandble giving your posting in here and how you treat me.
so please. Go ahead and highlight where I've been "very rude to you". I'm waiting.
Pretty clear, imo.
I don't think calling someone "kicking and screaming" is rude... is it? You were doing that after all. Telling someone to learn to read on the other hand is clearly an insult.
So if I tell you to stop crying about rudeness... that's not rude then? You have been acting like a crybaby after all. It very clearly is rude and I think you're playing dumb, but if you didn't perceive it that way then oh well who cares. But this is why it's silly for everyone to be playing manner police.
If someone needs a liberal to be extremely rude to them so that they can feel good about riding away on their high-horse, and will thus stop crapping up the thread with really cringey, personal whining, let me know, I'll be happy to oblige.
Like, if the dude just wants to say "liberals are rude", you know what, guy? You're right. You win. Totally. The people you've been talking to aren't aren't even necessarily "liberal", and they're exceedingly far from rude, but I am both liberal and rude. I wouldn't even, like, open a door for you if your hands were full, just because you're a Trump-supporter. Honestly.
Now that you're totally vindicated on that point, 100%, you can either leave victoriously, OR, talk about something that actually matters.
I appreciate it's Saturday morning and there isn't any breaking news, for once. But surely the last two pages of this thread could've provided better reading material.
So after watching that short clip, is it still a strawman argument when I say that left-wing people call Trump supporters racists, sexists, etc... or not? There are basically an endless supply of examples, but if you don't think that is, then I guess we're at a dead end.
Okay, so you opened with:
On February 11 2018 00:15 PeTraSoHot wrote: Has anyone here ever considered that maybe people view other people as individuals with their own unique personalities and opinions, instead of viewing them as members of a certain race and gender? Radical idea, I know...
The "Has anyone here ever considered" construction, taken literally, would mean that you honestly think this is a possibility no one has considered. Of course, you didn't mean it literally (we even got a sarcastic "Radical idea, I know" in case we were uncertain), and the construction was meant to indicate that you think this possibility is so clearly and obviously true, but the people you are talking to are too dense to realize it. Content of your argument aside, that's a rude and obnoxious way to argue.
micro rightly pointed this out, and you responded by saying he's a "hypocrite" because he's not equally critical of liberals accusing Trump supporters of racism and sexism. The silliest thing about this is that micro didn't even deny that he's not equally critical of such liberals, he just pointed out that even if he isn't, that doesn't make your argument any less rude or obnoxious.
But since we're here, no, I don't think someone accusing Trump supporters of racism and sexism is comparably rude and obnoxious. There might be rude or obnoxious ways to do it, but the underlying claim is not necessarily either one. If I say "I believe that Donald Trump's mass appeal and ultimate victory over Hillary Clinton was significantly aided by racial animosity and sexist conceptions of gender roles," calling that claim rude and obnoxious would be an attempt to use tone policing to restrict the idea itself. Whereas there are perfectly acceptable ways to say "I think that people disliked Hillary and liked Trump for reasons that had little to do with race or gender." You just picked one that is pointedly chosen to imply "you guys don't agree with me because you're idiots."
The most amusing part of all this comes at the end of your first post:
That's a very interesting experiment you've posted here. But it directly undercuts the point you were trying to make! You were arguing that race and sex aren't a big factor in how we formed our assessments of Trump and Clinton, and then as evidence, you cited an example in which the candidates were gender-swapped, and audiences' assessments changed radically! If you had been arguing "sexist attitudes actually mostly hurt men, not women" this would be a more sensible piece of evidence to pull out, even if that claim would make little sense otherwise.
It might be too late to have a reasonable discussion about this, considering where the tone of the thread has gone (and I have places to be, anyway), but hopefully if you calm down a little, you'll realize that yes, all of us in the thread have considered the possibility that sexism and racism are not significant determiners of people's attitudes about various political topics. To the extent that we have rejected that hypothesis, we generally have reasons for believing that it doesn't fit the facts. You might consider inquiring about what those reasons are before assuming they're stupid ones.
I'm going to quote: I think if you want to complain about moderators only going after Trump supporters while ignoring the left leaning guys in here you're better off complaining ... somewhere else. Never done it myself but I'm pretty sure there's some kind of feedback thread for that.
As I see it you got in here kicking and screaming for no apparent reason and you're the one that with the beef. that's my post. Where in there have I been rude to you? You responded by saying I can't read. I'd personally say that's rude but I don't think anything I've said in my first post was particularly rude? I did return the favor afterwards by calling what you write BS but I'd say that's understandble giving your posting in here and how you treat me.
so please. Go ahead and highlight where I've been "very rude to you". I'm waiting.
Pretty clear, imo.
I don't think calling someone "kicking and screaming" is rude... is it? You were doing that after all. Telling someone to learn to read on the other hand is clearly an insult.
So if I tell you to stop crying about rudeness... that's not rude then? You have been acting like a crybaby after all. It very clearly is rude and I think you're playing dumb, but if you didn't perceive it that way then oh well who cares. But this is why it's silly for everyone to be playing manner police.
mmmh, considering that I literally only have had 1 post in which I mentioned you being rude before you insulted me I would find it hilarious and consider you an asshole for posting "stop crying about rudeness" as that seems to imply I've done it a lot when I've done it exactly once. Especially considering that you have admitted that you're being rude and perhaps even do it on purpose. I wouldn't mention that though. Calling someone a crybaby however would be an insult for me.
If you want to say that "stop crying about rudeness" NOW, I wouldn't mind it, as I've had a couple of posts about it by now. I would however consider you a troll because you're trying to get that reaction out of people on purpose by insulting them. So it's hardly surprising that people react that way.
I'm going to quote: I think if you want to complain about moderators only going after Trump supporters while ignoring the left leaning guys in here you're better off complaining ... somewhere else. Never done it myself but I'm pretty sure there's some kind of feedback thread for that.
As I see it you got in here kicking and screaming for no apparent reason and you're the one that with the beef. that's my post. Where in there have I been rude to you? You responded by saying I can't read. I'd personally say that's rude but I don't think anything I've said in my first post was particularly rude? I did return the favor afterwards by calling what you write BS but I'd say that's understandble giving your posting in here and how you treat me.
so please. Go ahead and highlight where I've been "very rude to you". I'm waiting.
Pretty clear, imo.
I don't think calling someone "kicking and screaming" is rude... is it? You were doing that after all. Telling someone to learn to read on the other hand is clearly an insult.
So if I tell you to stop crying about rudeness... that's not rude then? You have been acting like a crybaby after all. It very clearly is rude and I think you're playing dumb, but if you didn't perceive it that way then oh well who cares. But this is why it's silly for everyone to be playing manner police.
You're so clearly spoiling for a fight that it's tiresome just reading your posts. Nobody cares.
Not all Trump supporters are racist or sexist. But there is no argument to be made that Trump isn't the chosen candidate of racist sexists. Obviously you like Trump, but I'd be very careful with 'you leftist' arguments and generalisations, given your candidate is the guy explicitly supported by neo nazis and the klu klux klan. And you can check twitter for confirmation of that.
Or do you see no correlation between the rise of Trump and the massive upswing in confidence of neo nazi groups in the US? And if you don't, what do you think has caused it?
I'm going to quote: I think if you want to complain about moderators only going after Trump supporters while ignoring the left leaning guys in here you're better off complaining ... somewhere else. Never done it myself but I'm pretty sure there's some kind of feedback thread for that.
As I see it you got in here kicking and screaming for no apparent reason and you're the one that with the beef. that's my post. Where in there have I been rude to you? You responded by saying I can't read. I'd personally say that's rude but I don't think anything I've said in my first post was particularly rude? I did return the favor afterwards by calling what you write BS but I'd say that's understandble giving your posting in here and how you treat me.
so please. Go ahead and highlight where I've been "very rude to you". I'm waiting.
Pretty clear, imo.
I don't think calling someone "kicking and screaming" is rude... is it? You were doing that after all. Telling someone to learn to read on the other hand is clearly an insult.
So if I tell you to stop crying about rudeness... that's not rude then? You have been acting like a crybaby after all. It very clearly is rude and I think you're playing dumb, but if you didn't perceive it that way then oh well who cares. But this is why it's silly for everyone to be playing manner police.
You're so clearly spoiling for a fight that it's tiresome just reading your posts. Nobody cares.
Not all Trump supporters are racist or sexist. But there is no argument to be made that Trump isn't the chosen candidate of racist sexists. Obviously you like Trump, but I'd be very careful with 'you leftist' arguments and generalisations, given your candidate is the guy explicitly supported by neo nazis and the klu klux klan. And you can check twitter for confirmation of that.
Or do you see no correlation between the rise of Trump and the massive upswing in confidence of neo nazi groups in the US? And if you don't, what do you think has caused it?
Lefts media and academia open anti white propaganda and black racist groups like BLM clearly strengthened neo nazi groups. It is natural that "right" identity politics emerges as a result of "left" identity politics.
We conservatives oppose both, your gender and color of skin do not determine who you are. Your actions, and to a lesser extent ideas, do.
I'm going to quote: I think if you want to complain about moderators only going after Trump supporters while ignoring the left leaning guys in here you're better off complaining ... somewhere else. Never done it myself but I'm pretty sure there's some kind of feedback thread for that.
As I see it you got in here kicking and screaming for no apparent reason and you're the one that with the beef. that's my post. Where in there have I been rude to you? You responded by saying I can't read. I'd personally say that's rude but I don't think anything I've said in my first post was particularly rude? I did return the favor afterwards by calling what you write BS but I'd say that's understandble giving your posting in here and how you treat me.
so please. Go ahead and highlight where I've been "very rude to you". I'm waiting.
Pretty clear, imo.
I don't think calling someone "kicking and screaming" is rude... is it? You were doing that after all. Telling someone to learn to read on the other hand is clearly an insult.
So if I tell you to stop crying about rudeness... that's not rude then? You have been acting like a crybaby after all. It very clearly is rude and I think you're playing dumb, but if you didn't perceive it that way then oh well who cares. But this is why it's silly for everyone to be playing manner police.
You're so clearly spoiling for a fight that it's tiresome just reading your posts. Nobody cares.
Not all Trump supporters are racist or sexist. But there is no argument to be made that Trump isn't the chosen candidate of racist sexists. Obviously you like Trump, but I'd be very careful with 'you leftist' arguments and generalisations, given your candidate is the guy explicitly supported by neo nazis and the klu klux klan. And you can check twitter for confirmation of that.
Or do you see no correlation between the rise of Trump and the massive upswing in confidence of neo nazi groups in the US? And if you don't, what do you think has caused it?
Lefts media and academia open anti white propaganda and black racist groups like BLM clearly strengthened neo nazi groups. It is natural that "right" identity politics emerges as a result of "left" identity politics.
We conservatives oppose both, your gender and color of skin do not determine who you are. Your actions, and to a lesser extent ideas, do.
Do you not consider people like xdaunt or danglars conservative then? Because they most certainly support the neo nazi's.
I like how BLM and 'identity politics' (generally known as civil rights advocacy) are somehow justifications for tacit support of Neo Nazis and not-so-tacit support of the alt right.
Re: deplorables: I think Hillary painted people with a little bit too broad of a brush there and it was phrased poorly, but I do agree with the sentiment there are many people who are willing to condone racism, sexism and other things and they fall mostly (maybe almost exclusively) on the side of Trump supporters. Also, people pointing at that particular comment and how insulting it while not pausing to see if there's any truth in the statement is an interesting reaction.
On February 11 2018 05:41 ticklishmusic wrote: I like how BLM and 'identity politics' (generally known as civil rights advocacy) are somehow justifications for tacit support of Neo Nazis and not-so-tacit support of the alt right.
I enjoy the conservative mindset that race and gender don’t matter any more, and any alternative viewpoint is an effort to exploit race or gender for personal gain.
I'm going to quote: I think if you want to complain about moderators only going after Trump supporters while ignoring the left leaning guys in here you're better off complaining ... somewhere else. Never done it myself but I'm pretty sure there's some kind of feedback thread for that.
As I see it you got in here kicking and screaming for no apparent reason and you're the one that with the beef. that's my post. Where in there have I been rude to you? You responded by saying I can't read. I'd personally say that's rude but I don't think anything I've said in my first post was particularly rude? I did return the favor afterwards by calling what you write BS but I'd say that's understandble giving your posting in here and how you treat me.
so please. Go ahead and highlight where I've been "very rude to you". I'm waiting.
Pretty clear, imo.
I don't think calling someone "kicking and screaming" is rude... is it? You were doing that after all. Telling someone to learn to read on the other hand is clearly an insult.
So if I tell you to stop crying about rudeness... that's not rude then? You have been acting like a crybaby after all. It very clearly is rude and I think you're playing dumb, but if you didn't perceive it that way then oh well who cares. But this is why it's silly for everyone to be playing manner police.
You're so clearly spoiling for a fight that it's tiresome just reading your posts. Nobody cares.
Not all Trump supporters are racist or sexist. But there is no argument to be made that Trump isn't the chosen candidate of racist sexists. Obviously you like Trump, but I'd be very careful with 'you leftist' arguments and generalisations, given your candidate is the guy explicitly supported by neo nazis and the klu klux klan. And you can check twitter for confirmation of that.
Or do you see no correlation between the rise of Trump and the massive upswing in confidence of neo nazi groups in the US? And if you don't, what do you think has caused it?
Lefts media and academia open anti white propaganda and black racist groups like BLM clearly strengthened neo nazi groups. It is natural that "right" identity politics emerges as a result of "left" identity politics.
We conservatives oppose both, your gender and color of skin do not determine who you are. Your actions, and to a lesser extent ideas, do.
If we lived in a world where "right" identity politics existed for a while and was quite important in politics, would you say that it's natural then for "left" identity politics to emerge as a result of "right" identity politics?
I'm going to quote: I think if you want to complain about moderators only going after Trump supporters while ignoring the left leaning guys in here you're better off complaining ... somewhere else. Never done it myself but I'm pretty sure there's some kind of feedback thread for that.
As I see it you got in here kicking and screaming for no apparent reason and you're the one that with the beef. that's my post. Where in there have I been rude to you? You responded by saying I can't read. I'd personally say that's rude but I don't think anything I've said in my first post was particularly rude? I did return the favor afterwards by calling what you write BS but I'd say that's understandble giving your posting in here and how you treat me.
so please. Go ahead and highlight where I've been "very rude to you". I'm waiting.
Pretty clear, imo.
I don't think calling someone "kicking and screaming" is rude... is it? You were doing that after all. Telling someone to learn to read on the other hand is clearly an insult.
So if I tell you to stop crying about rudeness... that's not rude then? You have been acting like a crybaby after all. It very clearly is rude and I think you're playing dumb, but if you didn't perceive it that way then oh well who cares. But this is why it's silly for everyone to be playing manner police.
You're so clearly spoiling for a fight that it's tiresome just reading your posts. Nobody cares.
Not all Trump supporters are racist or sexist. But there is no argument to be made that Trump isn't the chosen candidate of racist sexists. Obviously you like Trump, but I'd be very careful with 'you leftist' arguments and generalisations, given your candidate is the guy explicitly supported by neo nazis and the klu klux klan. And you can check twitter for confirmation of that.
Or do you see no correlation between the rise of Trump and the massive upswing in confidence of neo nazi groups in the US? And if you don't, what do you think has caused it?
Lefts media and academia open anti white propaganda and black racist groups like BLM clearly strengthened neo nazi groups. It is natural that "right" identity politics emerges as a result of "left" identity politics.
We conservatives oppose both, your gender and color of skin do not determine who you are. Your actions, and to a lesser extent ideas, do.
I don't think you believe what you are saying. I assume you know very well that the point of liberals has nothing to do with an "anti white agenda".
The difference between liberal and conservatives is that conservatives pretend that everyone has equal chances and that there is no correction to be made towards minorities (the consequence being that if a minority is doing horribly it's probably because of some inherent flaw of them - maybe that was even the starting point? - but that's not even the point). It's not that your skin colour or gender determine who you are, it's that it affects the opportunities you will have in life.
Liberals consider that the our society is still unfair, that you still have it harder if you are black, or gay, or a woman, and that it needs to be rectified.
We can disagree on that point but don't insult our intelligence with such a ridiculous strawman of the left wing position, please.
I'm going to quote: I think if you want to complain about moderators only going after Trump supporters while ignoring the left leaning guys in here you're better off complaining ... somewhere else. Never done it myself but I'm pretty sure there's some kind of feedback thread for that.
As I see it you got in here kicking and screaming for no apparent reason and you're the one that with the beef. that's my post. Where in there have I been rude to you? You responded by saying I can't read. I'd personally say that's rude but I don't think anything I've said in my first post was particularly rude? I did return the favor afterwards by calling what you write BS but I'd say that's understandble giving your posting in here and how you treat me.
so please. Go ahead and highlight where I've been "very rude to you". I'm waiting.
Pretty clear, imo.
I don't think calling someone "kicking and screaming" is rude... is it? You were doing that after all. Telling someone to learn to read on the other hand is clearly an insult.
So if I tell you to stop crying about rudeness... that's not rude then? You have been acting like a crybaby after all. It very clearly is rude and I think you're playing dumb, but if you didn't perceive it that way then oh well who cares. But this is why it's silly for everyone to be playing manner police.
You're so clearly spoiling for a fight that it's tiresome just reading your posts. Nobody cares.
Not all Trump supporters are racist or sexist. But there is no argument to be made that Trump isn't the chosen candidate of racist sexists. Obviously you like Trump, but I'd be very careful with 'you leftist' arguments and generalisations, given your candidate is the guy explicitly supported by neo nazis and the klu klux klan. And you can check twitter for confirmation of that.
Or do you see no correlation between the rise of Trump and the massive upswing in confidence of neo nazi groups in the US? And if you don't, what do you think has caused it?
Lefts media and academia open anti white propaganda and black racist groups like BLM clearly strengthened neo nazi groups. It is natural that "right" identity politics emerges as a result of "left" identity politics.
We conservatives oppose both, your gender and color of skin do not determine who you are. Your actions, and to a lesser extent ideas, do.
Don’t forget - some neo nazis are very fine people.
EPT
