EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 9591
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On December 22 2017 12:20 Danglars wrote:... The Knesset is in Jerusalem. The Prime Minister's residence is in Jerusalem. The city has been its capital for years. They have documents going back millennia connecting them to the land. But some other countries think it's their job to say where Israel's capital lies and where the US puts its embassy. It's immoral and ridiculous to claim injury at saying their capital is their capital. The fact that Israel has claimed Jerusalem as its capital for decades and nobody has in fact displaced them from the city doesn't seem to me to have any bearing on the morality of the situation. The Palestinians have voted for terrorism, pure and simple. I don't think much of anything about the Israel/Palestine conflict is "pure and simple". | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On December 22 2017 12:36 Aquanim wrote: The fact that Israel has claimed Jerusalem as its capital for decades and nobody has in fact displaced them from the city doesn't seem to me to have any bearing on the morality of the situation. I don't think much of anything about the Israel/Palestine conflict is "pure and simple". I used multiple threadlines in that post. That one speaks to how outright idiotic it is to make such a big deal about placing your embassy in the city where that country houses its capital and major government buildings. See that and previous posts for moral arguments, like excusing terrorism, going to war, and the rest. If Canada shot a thousand rockets into our northern states, maybe more people would understand both sides of the moral arguments. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On December 22 2017 13:10 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: https://twitter.com/SimonMaloy/status/943937710661742593 Let's put this man in charge of something. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On December 22 2017 12:32 Doodsmack wrote: It's totally reasonable to put all the fault on one side of the Israel/Palestine conflict, and stick to that side only. I know. Those Palestinian lovers should really be more even-handed! All joking aside, I wish both sides came to an agreement for lasting peace, even as I recognize that the Palestinians are the greatest obstacle to that end at this point. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On December 22 2017 13:29 Danglars wrote: I used multiple threadlines in that post. That one speaks to how outright idiotic it is to make such a big deal about placing your embassy in the city where that country houses its capital and major government buildings. Well, if you ignore all the complicating factors, then sure it's idiotic. Ignoring all the complicating factors is itself outright idiotic, though. See that and previous posts for moral arguments, like excusing terrorism, going to war, and the rest. If Canada shot a thousand rockets into our northern states, maybe more people would understand both sides of the moral arguments. Looking at only the atrocities committed by one side is about as useful as saying that the Allies were morally at fault in World War II on account of the Dresden bombing. (To be clear, I'm not saying that the Palestinians are morally in anything like the same position as the Allies - merely that this line of argument doesn't establish anything useful.) | ||
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IgnE
United States7684 Posts
On December 22 2017 12:14 GoTuNk! wrote: So who cares if they can pay it? What can be more inmoral than the government showing up to loot the grave of the diseased? That tax should be completely deleted. What could be more immoral than the government showing up to shake people down at all? Taxes are theft. | ||
ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On December 22 2017 13:10 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: https://twitter.com/SimonMaloy/status/943937710661742593 Does Steve Bannon know how the Persian wars ended? | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24384 Posts
On December 22 2017 12:14 GoTuNk! wrote: So who cares if they can pay it? What can be more inmoral than the government showing up to loot the grave of the diseased? That tax should be completely deleted. Funnily enough, if they put it in their grave no one would pay any taxes on it. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On December 22 2017 13:41 Aquanim wrote: Well, if you ignore all the complicating factors, then sure it's idiotic. Ignoring all the complicating factors is itself outright idiotic, though. I'd call it more of a 'consider and reject' move. They're pretty damn weak. Or have all the ones up to now presented in this thread and some news stories been week, and I simply haven't been exposed to the powerful ones? Looking at only the atrocities committed by one side is about as useful as saying that the Allies were morally at fault in World War II on account of the Dresden bombing. (To be clear, I'm not saying that the Palestinians are morally in anything like the same position as the Allies - merely that this line of argument doesn't establish anything useful.) Too little attention has been given to Palestinian demands that Israel cease to exist, Palestinian terror attacks (thousands of rockets, kidnapping, suicide bombing), and the history of wars against Israel. I don't see broad parity in any moral comparison. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24384 Posts
On December 22 2017 14:16 Danglars wrote: I'd call it more of a 'consider and reject' move. They're pretty damn weak. Or have all the ones up to now presented in this thread and some news stories been week, and I simply haven't been exposed to the powerful ones? Too little attention has been given to Palestinian demands that Israel cease to exist, Palestinian terror attacks (thousands of rockets, kidnapping, suicide bombing), and the history of wars against Israel. I don't see broad parity in any moral comparison. Israel wants Palestine to cease to exist. They literally don't recognize them as a country. When one side has billions of dollars of US weapons and support, and the other has slingshots and shitty rockets, only one side is bringing that desire to reality. Just to put into perspective who it is that's getting killed over the last decade+ ![[image loading]](http://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/assets/4756436/IP_conflict_deaths_total.png) Yet here you are making it sound like Israelis live in total terror while Palestinians just refuse to accept the very reasonable amount of civilians Israel kills every year. This has some more recent numbers (2015-2016) https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/israel/palestine | ||
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Sermokala
United States14211 Posts
On December 22 2017 14:08 ticklishmusic wrote: Does Steve Bannon know how the Hellenic wars ended? Now forgive me but which hellenic war are you refering to? Beacuse otherwise I'm just going to say Rome and everyone will just shrug. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On December 22 2017 14:16 Danglars wrote: I'd call it more of a 'consider and reject' move. They're pretty damn weak. Or have all the ones up to now presented in this thread and some news stories been week, and I simply haven't been exposed to the powerful ones? Too little attention has been given to Palestinian demands that Israel cease to exist, Palestinian terror attacks (thousands of rockets, kidnapping, suicide bombing), and the history of wars against Israel. I don't see broad parity in any moral comparison. Both of these seem like a function of your perspective and opinion. I'm personally yet to be convinced by your statements on either, although I would certainly not classify myself as being more sympathetic to Palestine than Israel. (edit: to be clear about what that means, I'm not much more sympathetic to Israel either, and I am disinclined to give either side carte blanche.) | ||
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IgnE
United States7684 Posts
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IgnE
United States7684 Posts
On December 22 2017 14:16 Danglars wrote: Too little attention has been given to Palestinian demands that Israel cease to exist, Palestinian terror attacks (thousands of rockets, kidnapping, suicide bombing), and the history of wars against Israel. I don't see broad parity in any moral comparison. Yeah you are right. The Israelis murder far more Palestinians than vice versa. Whatever happened to Spider-Man? "With great power comes great responsibility" | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On December 22 2017 14:33 GreenHorizons wrote: Israel wants Palestine to cease to exist. They literally don't recognize them as a country. When one side has billions of dollars of US weapons and support, and the other has slingshots and shitty rockets, only one side is bringing that desire to reality. Just to put into perspective who it is that's getting killed over the last decade+ Yet here you are making it sound like Israelis live in total terror while Palestinians just refuse to accept the very reasonable amount of civilians Israel kills every year. This has some more recent numbers (2015-2016) https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/israel/palestine Step one would be to stop lobbing missiles into the country. And stop building the launch sites in heavy civilian areas. And stop storing weapons in schools. I know, I know, these are foreign ideas. Casualties garner international sympathy. The Palestinian government simply doesn’t care. Israel has long been willing in negotiations to recognize Palestine’s right to exist, stretching back decades now. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24384 Posts
On December 22 2017 15:22 Danglars wrote: Step one would be to stop lobbing missiles into the country. And stop building the launch sites in heavy civilian areas. And stop storing weapons in schools. I know, I know, these are foreign ideas. Casualties garner international sympathy. The Palestinian government simply doesn’t care. Israel has long been willing in negotiations to recognize Palestine’s right to exist, stretching back decades now. You think if Palestinians acted as good as the US population that Israeli oppression and violence would stop? You don't see the comedy of occupying land with a population already on it and then pointing to their willingness to recognize those inhabitants right to exist as a "so there!" at all do you? | ||
Falling
Canada11607 Posts
But if you counter that the rockets shouldn't stop because of the lost territory of the Palestinians, then it means we are still engaged in a never ending war- no one is surrendering, even with asymmetrical losses and so the war goes on- what to do? Not fire back? Give the Palestinians better guidance systems or target coordinates so the casualties even out? Things like the Iron Dome have been invented because Israel gets in so much international hot water for going after rocket attacks, so they develop defensive rocket defenses as much as they can. How many rockets and suicide bombers should Israel wait out until their responsibility matches their power? Equal death counts? | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On December 22 2017 14:58 IgnE wrote: Yeah you are right. The Israelis murder far more Palestinians than vice versa. Whatever happened to Spider-Man? "With great power comes great responsibility" I never said the Palestinians were great at making their aggression turn up high body counts. They just like firing missiles and doing what terror they can. Israel spends their billions on walls and technology in defense of their citizens. I never considered senselessness to how many of your own citizens die as an outstanding moral claim to the high ground. It just shows the lengths to which you encourage civilian deaths to support your international outreach. | ||
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