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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On December 05 2017 08:42 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 08:39 xDaunt wrote:
Speaking of Germany, did y'all read about how Germany is offering the refugees (who are mostly Muslim) money to leave? Who are y'all trying to kid here with this "unfettered Muslim immigration is good" business? Literally no one said "unfettered" immigration of any kind was good, please find a single example of someone doing so. The refugee crisis in Europe was a failure of the EU to deal with it in a way that was both politically expedient and humanitarian regardless, but keep trying to milk it for a poisonous, nationalist agenda.
The problem is that EU and most of its individual member states lack the conviction to acknowledge that their first duty is to their citizens and to act accordingly. Immigration should never, ever be used as a charity service. If that means thousands of civilians will die, so be it. If the country can't stomach that thought, then it should send in the military.
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Somehow, I thought the Era of Trump would mean tax bills get a little milder treatment to reserve the real outrage for when he oppresses Muslims, or whatever’s the next Trump-reaction cycle.
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WASHINGTON — While facing several felony charges, Donald Trump’s former campaign chairman Paul Manafort has been working on an op-ed essay with a longtime colleague “assessed to have ties” to a Russian intelligence service, according to court papers filed Monday by prosecutors working for special counsel Robert Mueller.
In a court filing, prosecutors say Manafort and the colleague sought to publish the op-ed under someone else’s name and intended it to influence public opinion about his work in Ukraine. The op-ed was being drafted as late as last week, with Manafort currently under house arrest. Prosecutors did not name the colleague but noted the person is based in Russia.
Manafort is currently facing several felony charges involving allegations of money laundering and other financial crimes related to his political consulting work in Ukraine. He has been confined to his home while he works out a bond arrangement with the government.
Manafort has denied any wrongdoing related to his work in Ukraine. A spokesman for Manafort declined comment on the op-ed described by prosecutors.
In the court filing, prosecutors say the op-ed appeared to violate an admonishment from the judge last month to refrain from public statements.
“Even if the ghostwritten op-ed were entirely accurate, fair, and balanced, it would be a violation of this Court’s November 8 Order if it had been published,” the prosecutors wrote. “The editorial clearly was undertaken to influence the public’s opinion of defendant Manafort, or else there would be no reason to seek its publication (much less for Manafort and his long-time associate to ghostwrite it in another’s name).”
They added, “It compounds the problem that the proposed piece is not a dispassionate recitation of the facts.”
Prosecutors said they discovered the efforts to publish the op-ed last Thursday and alerted Manafort’s attorney, who assured prosecutors that “steps would be taken to make sure it was it was no longer going to be published.”
At the time, Manafort was working to secure his release from home confinement by posting more than $10 million in bond, and according to court papers, he had reached a tentative agreement with the government. But after discovering the op-ed, Mueller’s team is now opposing Manafort’s proposed bond agreement.
Prosecutors did not disclose the op-ed in court papers so as to prevent it from becoming public. They also did not disclose what name the ghostwritten op-ed would have been published under.
www.washingtonpost.com
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On December 05 2017 08:44 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 08:42 kollin wrote:On December 05 2017 08:39 xDaunt wrote:
Speaking of Germany, did y'all read about how Germany is offering the refugees (who are mostly Muslim) money to leave? Who are y'all trying to kid here with this "unfettered Muslim immigration is good" business? Literally no one said "unfettered" immigration of any kind was good, please find a single example of someone doing so. The refugee crisis in Europe was a failure of the EU to deal with it in a way that was both politically expedient and humanitarian regardless, but keep trying to milk it for a poisonous, nationalist agenda. The problem is that EU and most of its individual member states lack the conviction to acknowledge that their first duty is to their citizens and to act accordingly. Immigration should never, ever be used as a charity service. If that means thousands of civilians will die, so be it. If the country can't stomach that thought, then it should send in the military.
You can write that into the american constitution but the German constitution guarantees asylum as a humanitarian right (as does just about every country on the planet under international law), regular immigration is called... immigration.
Asylum is a 'charity service' by definition because it's designed as a means to give protection to people, there is no economical calculus involved.
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I love it when xdaunt goes on one of his scary brown people rants, railing against refugees from war torn countries. Citing all the resasons Americans used back in the late 1930s to send the Jews packing back to Europe.
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On December 05 2017 08:47 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 08:44 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 08:42 kollin wrote:On December 05 2017 08:39 xDaunt wrote:
Speaking of Germany, did y'all read about how Germany is offering the refugees (who are mostly Muslim) money to leave? Who are y'all trying to kid here with this "unfettered Muslim immigration is good" business? Literally no one said "unfettered" immigration of any kind was good, please find a single example of someone doing so. The refugee crisis in Europe was a failure of the EU to deal with it in a way that was both politically expedient and humanitarian regardless, but keep trying to milk it for a poisonous, nationalist agenda. The problem is that EU and most of its individual member states lack the conviction to acknowledge that their first duty is to their citizens and to act accordingly. Immigration should never, ever be used as a charity service. If that means thousands of civilians will die, so be it. If the country can't stomach that thought, then it should send in the military. You can write that into the american constitution but the German constitution guarantees asylum as a humanitarian right (as does just about every country on the planet under international law), regular immigration is called... immigration.
My condolences for having such a flaw in your constitution that would force your country to take in over a million refugees at once.
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Throw him in jail. No contacts means no contacts.
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On December 05 2017 08:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 08:33 Mohdoo wrote:On December 05 2017 08:29 kollin wrote:On December 05 2017 08:24 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 08:17 Plansix wrote:
Muslim’s values don’t seem any more incompatible than the state of Alabama’s values. I don’t see any real reason to limit their immigration, especially if they are refugees. Because, it has been proven over and over that refugees don’t commit acts of terror. If you truly believe that, then you really are lost in a sea of false equivalence. Y'all on the left love to be the champions of gay and women rights, but for whatever reason, y'all just can't help yourselves when it comes to relentlessly defending the very people who have the nasty habit of throwing gays off of roofs and oppressing women. Say what you want about Bubba down in Alabama, but his "homophobia" and "misogyny" aren't in the same league as what you'll find in the Muslim world. It's not even the same sport. And I haven't even gotten to the Muslim idea of the relationship between church and state. I can abuse you liberals on this shit all day. So, presumably, if a Muslim from a country which has no record of throwing gay people off roofs, or oppressing women, you have no problem with their immigration standards being the same as everyone else's? Does it not cross your mind that, if someone is trying to leave a country in which they throw people off roofs and oppress women, then that suggests, culturally, they are at odds with that country? Presumably, given the treatment of women in these Muslim countries, you'd have no problem allowing women in from these countries so that they might escape this oppression? I don't think you can say people leaving these countries means they don't agree with social policies of these countries. In fact, we have loads of indication otherwise. Do we need a reminder of Germany's issues? We are not Germany. We have very different immigration policies and are much stricter. We are beyond picky with our refugees, so it is not a problem.
I don't disagree. I am simply pointing out the fact that refugees are not leaving Syria because of their regressive approach to homosexuality.
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On December 05 2017 08:44 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 08:42 kollin wrote:On December 05 2017 08:39 xDaunt wrote:
Speaking of Germany, did y'all read about how Germany is offering the refugees (who are mostly Muslim) money to leave? Who are y'all trying to kid here with this "unfettered Muslim immigration is good" business? Literally no one said "unfettered" immigration of any kind was good, please find a single example of someone doing so. The refugee crisis in Europe was a failure of the EU to deal with it in a way that was both politically expedient and humanitarian regardless, but keep trying to milk it for a poisonous, nationalist agenda. The problem is that EU and most of its individual member states lack the conviction to acknowledge that their first duty is to their citizens and to act accordingly. Immigration should never, ever be used as a charity service. If that means thousands of civilians will die, so be it. If the country can't stomach that thought, then it should send in the military.
The problem is that the EU failed to act in a co-ordinated way to disperse refugees across the continent, reducing the ability of far-right parties to exploit them for political ends. A state has no 'first duty' - a nation might do, but they are different things. If the members of a nation can't recognise and cope with people of different nations coming in, then it is either a nation which is founded on very weak premises, or currently feels as if it is founded on weak premises and is consequently reacting with a flare of nationalist fervour. Neither of those possibilities are worth letting people die for.
Also, by your logic, Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany would've been denied any form of asylum and left to die in concentration camps. 90% of the Jewish Germans who did not find refuge in another country did, of course, meet this end.
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On December 05 2017 08:52 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 08:35 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2017 08:33 Mohdoo wrote:On December 05 2017 08:29 kollin wrote:On December 05 2017 08:24 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 08:17 Plansix wrote:
Muslim’s values don’t seem any more incompatible than the state of Alabama’s values. I don’t see any real reason to limit their immigration, especially if they are refugees. Because, it has been proven over and over that refugees don’t commit acts of terror. If you truly believe that, then you really are lost in a sea of false equivalence. Y'all on the left love to be the champions of gay and women rights, but for whatever reason, y'all just can't help yourselves when it comes to relentlessly defending the very people who have the nasty habit of throwing gays off of roofs and oppressing women. Say what you want about Bubba down in Alabama, but his "homophobia" and "misogyny" aren't in the same league as what you'll find in the Muslim world. It's not even the same sport. And I haven't even gotten to the Muslim idea of the relationship between church and state. I can abuse you liberals on this shit all day. So, presumably, if a Muslim from a country which has no record of throwing gay people off roofs, or oppressing women, you have no problem with their immigration standards being the same as everyone else's? Does it not cross your mind that, if someone is trying to leave a country in which they throw people off roofs and oppress women, then that suggests, culturally, they are at odds with that country? Presumably, given the treatment of women in these Muslim countries, you'd have no problem allowing women in from these countries so that they might escape this oppression? I don't think you can say people leaving these countries means they don't agree with social policies of these countries. In fact, we have loads of indication otherwise. Do we need a reminder of Germany's issues? We are not Germany. We have very different immigration policies and are much stricter. We are beyond picky with our refugees, so it is not a problem. I don't disagree. I am simply pointing out the fact that refugees are not leaving Syria because of their regressive approach to homosexuality.
No of course not, but I was talking about Muslim immigration more broadly. If anything, Western countries and their 'values' (which up until very recently included conquest and the maintenance of an empire) contribute so directly to the situation in Syria, that they have an obligation to help deal with the consequences.
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How stupid can you be. Surely your every move is watched.
How does someone so dumb become head of military intelligence...
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On December 05 2017 09:03 Gorsameth wrote:How stupid can you be. Surely your every move is watched. How does someone so dumb become head of military intelligence...
Different idiot. This one was only the head of Trump's campaign
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On December 05 2017 09:03 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 09:03 Gorsameth wrote:How stupid can you be. Surely your every move is watched. How does someone so dumb become head of military intelligence... Different idiot. This one was only the head of Trump's campaign
Woops lol, edited :p
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On December 05 2017 08:53 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 08:44 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 08:42 kollin wrote:On December 05 2017 08:39 xDaunt wrote:
Speaking of Germany, did y'all read about how Germany is offering the refugees (who are mostly Muslim) money to leave? Who are y'all trying to kid here with this "unfettered Muslim immigration is good" business? Literally no one said "unfettered" immigration of any kind was good, please find a single example of someone doing so. The refugee crisis in Europe was a failure of the EU to deal with it in a way that was both politically expedient and humanitarian regardless, but keep trying to milk it for a poisonous, nationalist agenda. The problem is that EU and most of its individual member states lack the conviction to acknowledge that their first duty is to their citizens and to act accordingly. Immigration should never, ever be used as a charity service. If that means thousands of civilians will die, so be it. If the country can't stomach that thought, then it should send in the military. The problem is that the EU failed to act in a co-ordinated way to disperse refugees across the continent, reducing the ability of far-right parties to exploit them for political ends. A state has no 'first duty' - a nation might do, but they are different things. If the members of a nation can't recognise and cope with people of different nations coming in, then it is either a nation which is founded on very weak premises, or currently feels as if it is founded on weak premises and is consequently reacting with a flare of nationalist fervour. Neither of those possibilities are worth letting people die for. Also, by your logic, Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany would've been denied any form of asylum and left to die in concentration camps. 90% of the Jewish Germans who did not find refuge in another country did, of course, meet this end.
how are you using those terms? It seems the opposite, the nation might arguably have a moral obligation to help its neighbors, but the state must only concern itself with the nation to which it is connected and reliant upon.
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On December 05 2017 08:53 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 08:44 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 08:42 kollin wrote:On December 05 2017 08:39 xDaunt wrote:
Speaking of Germany, did y'all read about how Germany is offering the refugees (who are mostly Muslim) money to leave? Who are y'all trying to kid here with this "unfettered Muslim immigration is good" business? Literally no one said "unfettered" immigration of any kind was good, please find a single example of someone doing so. The refugee crisis in Europe was a failure of the EU to deal with it in a way that was both politically expedient and humanitarian regardless, but keep trying to milk it for a poisonous, nationalist agenda. The problem is that EU and most of its individual member states lack the conviction to acknowledge that their first duty is to their citizens and to act accordingly. Immigration should never, ever be used as a charity service. If that means thousands of civilians will die, so be it. If the country can't stomach that thought, then it should send in the military. The problem is that the EU failed to act in a co-ordinated way to disperse refugees across the continent, reducing the ability of far-right parties to exploit them for political ends. A state has no 'first duty' - a nation might do, but they are different things. If the members of a nation can't recognise and cope with people of different nations coming in, then it is either a nation which is founded on very weak premises, or currently feels as if it is founded on weak premises and is consequently reacting with a flare of nationalist fervour. Neither of those possibilities are worth letting people die for.
The state is the government. The nation is the people. In a democratic form of government, the state's power is derived from the people through a social contract with the people to govern in their interests. This is why the state's first duty is to the welfare of the people -- ie the nation. Why you would challenge any of these basic propositions is beyond me.
And this statement...
If the members of a nation can't recognise and cope with people of different nations coming in, then it is either a nation which is founded on very weak premises, or currently feels as if it is founded on weak premises and is consequently reacting with a flare of nationalist fervour.
...is not grounded in any kind of factual reality. To the contrary, history is littered with examples of conflict and war erupting where peoples with conflicting values live in close proximity to each other. Virtually everyone understands this with the exception of the leftist multiculturalists in the West.
Also, by your logic, Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany would've been denied any form of asylum and left to die in concentration camps. 90% of the Jewish Germans who did not find refuge in another country did, of course, meet this end.
Yep.
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Remember the statement about watergate? "these are not smart people." And that was a group made of the best of the GOP. Trump was surrounded by the dregs and cast-offs. Every competent republican politician was a never-Trumper. (The most competent Trumper seems to have been Chris "Bridgegate" Christie)
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On December 05 2017 09:06 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 08:53 kollin wrote:On December 05 2017 08:44 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 08:42 kollin wrote:On December 05 2017 08:39 xDaunt wrote:
Speaking of Germany, did y'all read about how Germany is offering the refugees (who are mostly Muslim) money to leave? Who are y'all trying to kid here with this "unfettered Muslim immigration is good" business? Literally no one said "unfettered" immigration of any kind was good, please find a single example of someone doing so. The refugee crisis in Europe was a failure of the EU to deal with it in a way that was both politically expedient and humanitarian regardless, but keep trying to milk it for a poisonous, nationalist agenda. The problem is that EU and most of its individual member states lack the conviction to acknowledge that their first duty is to their citizens and to act accordingly. Immigration should never, ever be used as a charity service. If that means thousands of civilians will die, so be it. If the country can't stomach that thought, then it should send in the military. The problem is that the EU failed to act in a co-ordinated way to disperse refugees across the continent, reducing the ability of far-right parties to exploit them for political ends. A state has no 'first duty' - a nation might do, but they are different things. If the members of a nation can't recognise and cope with people of different nations coming in, then it is either a nation which is founded on very weak premises, or currently feels as if it is founded on weak premises and is consequently reacting with a flare of nationalist fervour. Neither of those possibilities are worth letting people die for. The state is the government. The nation is the people. In a democratic form of government, the state's power is derived from the people through a social contract with the people to govern in their interests. This is why the state's first duty is to the welfare of the people -- ie the nation. Why you would challenge any of these basic propositions is beyond me. And this statement... Show nested quote +If the members of a nation can't recognise and cope with people of different nations coming in, then it is either a nation which is founded on very weak premises, or currently feels as if it is founded on weak premises and is consequently reacting with a flare of nationalist fervour.
...is not grounded in any kind of factual reality. To the contrary, history is littered with examples of conflict and war erupting where peoples with conflicting values live in close proximity to each other. Virtually everyone understands this with the exception of the leftist multiculturalists in the West.Show nested quote +Also, by your logic, Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany would've been denied any form of asylum and left to die in concentration camps. 90% of the Jewish Germans who did not find refuge in another country did, of course, meet this end. Yep. I'm sure china will collapse any day now
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On December 05 2017 09:08 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 09:06 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 08:53 kollin wrote:On December 05 2017 08:44 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 08:42 kollin wrote:On December 05 2017 08:39 xDaunt wrote:
Speaking of Germany, did y'all read about how Germany is offering the refugees (who are mostly Muslim) money to leave? Who are y'all trying to kid here with this "unfettered Muslim immigration is good" business? Literally no one said "unfettered" immigration of any kind was good, please find a single example of someone doing so. The refugee crisis in Europe was a failure of the EU to deal with it in a way that was both politically expedient and humanitarian regardless, but keep trying to milk it for a poisonous, nationalist agenda. The problem is that EU and most of its individual member states lack the conviction to acknowledge that their first duty is to their citizens and to act accordingly. Immigration should never, ever be used as a charity service. If that means thousands of civilians will die, so be it. If the country can't stomach that thought, then it should send in the military. The problem is that the EU failed to act in a co-ordinated way to disperse refugees across the continent, reducing the ability of far-right parties to exploit them for political ends. A state has no 'first duty' - a nation might do, but they are different things. If the members of a nation can't recognise and cope with people of different nations coming in, then it is either a nation which is founded on very weak premises, or currently feels as if it is founded on weak premises and is consequently reacting with a flare of nationalist fervour. Neither of those possibilities are worth letting people die for. The state is the government. The nation is the people. In a democratic form of government, the state's power is derived from the people through a social contract with the people to govern in their interests. This is why the state's first duty is to the welfare of the people -- ie the nation. Why you would challenge any of these basic propositions is beyond me. And this statement... If the members of a nation can't recognise and cope with people of different nations coming in, then it is either a nation which is founded on very weak premises, or currently feels as if it is founded on weak premises and is consequently reacting with a flare of nationalist fervour.
...is not grounded in any kind of factual reality. To the contrary, history is littered with examples of conflict and war erupting where peoples with conflicting values live in close proximity to each other. Virtually everyone understands this with the exception of the leftist multiculturalists in the West.Also, by your logic, Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany would've been denied any form of asylum and left to die in concentration camps. 90% of the Jewish Germans who did not find refuge in another country did, of course, meet this end. Yep. I'm sure china will collapse any day now
You do realize that China perfectly illustrates my point, right?
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President Trump may have been involved with a change to the Republican Party campaign platform last year that watered down support for U.S. assistance to Ukraine, according to new information from someone who was involved.
Diana Denman, a Republican delegate who supported arming U.S. allies in Ukraine, has told people that Trump aide J.D. Gordon said at the Republican Convention in 2016 that Trump directed him to support weakening that position in the official platform.
Ultimately, the softer position was adopted.
Denman is scheduled to meet this week with the House and Senate Intelligence committees to discuss what she saw, said two sources familiar with the briefings.
Investigators in Congress and elsewhere want to ask the San Antonio-area woman about how her proposal supporting Ukraine changed in the course of last year's convention.
People familiar with the story described it to NPR. Robert N. Driscoll, a Washington-based lawyer for Denman at McGlinchey Stafford, declined to comment.
The revision to Denman's proposed amendment to the Republican platform scaled back the party's position on pro-Western elements in Ukraine — from supporting supplying weapons for fighters there to a more general assistance.
The issue is of interest to investigators in Congress and the team working for Justice Department special counsel Robert Mueller because the idea of arming Ukrainians in the fight against pro-Russian separatist forces was staunchly opposed by the Russian government — and, it seems, the Trump campaign as well.
Denman has told people she spoke with Gordon, a national security aide on the Trump campaign, at the Republican convention in Cleveland last year. Gordon identified himself as a representative with the Trump campaign and informed her he had phoned "New York" about the Ukraine proposal, in Denman's account.
She followed up by asking with whom Gordon had spoken. And, more than once, Gordon replied he had discussed the issue with Trump.
No he didn't, Gordon said on Monday.
"I dispute her recollection of events," he said in messages with NPR. He also denied telling Denman in Cleveland that he had discussed the Ukraine language with Trump.
"Trump wasn't involved in the GOP Platform details. That was my job," Gordon said by text message. "Individual delegates didn't have the authority to force their positions on the campaign."
"I am not getting into a 'he said, she said' with the media about Diana Denman or anyone else," Gordon added.
One source said Denman was skeptical about Gordon's account at the time.
Gordon told NPR on Monday that Trump long had a clear position on Ukraine.
"Trump said on the campaign trail that he didn't want World War III over Ukraine. And he wanted better relations with Russia," Gordon said. "It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that arming Ukraine isn't consistent with those two positions."
The Obama administration also vowed support for pro-Western forces in Ukraine and supplied them with vehicles and other military equipment, but stopped short of weapons.
What has since become clear is that at the time of the convention, Russia was running a broad series of "active measures" against the U.S. presidential election that included clandestine outreach by human agents and an overt information campaign on social media. That wasn't known to the public then, but Mueller and congressional investigators have begun looking into whether anyone in the Trump camp helped the Russians who were attacking the election.
The change to the Ukraine platform in Cleveland has attracted attention because it has raised questions about whether it might have been evidence of communications between Russians and the Trump campaign, or was intended by the Trump team as some kind of a signal to the Russians about their willingness to accommodate them.
Source
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On December 05 2017 09:06 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 08:53 kollin wrote:On December 05 2017 08:44 xDaunt wrote:On December 05 2017 08:42 kollin wrote:On December 05 2017 08:39 xDaunt wrote:
Speaking of Germany, did y'all read about how Germany is offering the refugees (who are mostly Muslim) money to leave? Who are y'all trying to kid here with this "unfettered Muslim immigration is good" business? Literally no one said "unfettered" immigration of any kind was good, please find a single example of someone doing so. The refugee crisis in Europe was a failure of the EU to deal with it in a way that was both politically expedient and humanitarian regardless, but keep trying to milk it for a poisonous, nationalist agenda. The problem is that EU and most of its individual member states lack the conviction to acknowledge that their first duty is to their citizens and to act accordingly. Immigration should never, ever be used as a charity service. If that means thousands of civilians will die, so be it. If the country can't stomach that thought, then it should send in the military. The problem is that the EU failed to act in a co-ordinated way to disperse refugees across the continent, reducing the ability of far-right parties to exploit them for political ends. A state has no 'first duty' - a nation might do, but they are different things. If the members of a nation can't recognise and cope with people of different nations coming in, then it is either a nation which is founded on very weak premises, or currently feels as if it is founded on weak premises and is consequently reacting with a flare of nationalist fervour. Neither of those possibilities are worth letting people die for. The state is the government. The nation is the people. In a democratic form of government, the state's power is derived from the people through a social contract with the people to govern in their interests. This is why the state's first duty is to the welfare of the people -- ie the nation. Why you would challenge any of these basic propositions is beyond me. And this statement... Show nested quote +If the members of a nation can't recognise and cope with people of different nations coming in, then it is either a nation which is founded on very weak premises, or currently feels as if it is founded on weak premises and is consequently reacting with a flare of nationalist fervour. ...is not grounded in any kind of factual reality. To the contrary, history is littered with examples of conflict and war erupting where peoples with conflicting values live in close proximity to each other. Virtually everyone understands this with the exception of the leftist multiculturalists in the West. Show nested quote +Also, by your logic, Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany would've been denied any form of asylum and left to die in concentration camps. 90% of the Jewish Germans who did not find refuge in another country did, of course, meet this end. Yep.
Oh god you're not worth engaging with now I realise
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EPT
