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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 9417

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13926 Posts
December 04 2017 22:28 GMT
#188321
On December 05 2017 07:24 kollin wrote:
The failure of the right-wingers here to respond to the strongest refutations of their arguments kind of underlines the absurdist nightmare that this thread is.

Just remember that we started out as being from your country and learned much of what we are from you.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7888 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-04 22:44:12
December 04 2017 22:29 GMT
#188322
On December 05 2017 07:21 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2017 07:18 xDaunt wrote:
On December 05 2017 07:15 Danglars wrote:
On December 05 2017 07:08 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 05 2017 06:40 xDaunt wrote:
On December 05 2017 06:28 doomdonker wrote:
On December 05 2017 06:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 05 2017 06:12 xDaunt wrote:
You guys need to lay off Danglars. He's the only one who is remotely close to correctly framing the cake shop case. Here's the question that was certified by SCOTUS:

Whether applying Colorado’s public-accommodation law to compel artists to create expression that violates their sincerely held religious beliefs about marriage violates the Free Speech or Free Exercise Clauses of the First Amendment.


Clearly this is about freedom of religion (free exercise) and freedom of speech.

I love how freedom of remigion is so sacred when it’s about being a homophobic biggoted (christian) c..., but let’s ban all muslims to enter the country because muslims are the new jews.

Consistency, people.


xDaunt is supportive of nationalism so he’s being consistent here. Cut through the crap and he’s basically saying Western (rather baptist because most Church of England diocese I’ve been a part of have zilch relation to the shit I hear in Ohio) values much be kept sacred and that means keeping the muslims and their value beliefs out.

Can’t see how it isn’t racist but apparently the only way to be racist anymore is to wear a white hood and a flaming cross. Even then, apparently that isn’t enough considering they consistently deflect Trump’s racism with something from they believe to be from the left.


There, fixed that for you. No need to be so limiting.

Oh ok, so please admit it had nothing to do with freedom of religion or being accepting and respectful of different faiths, as the founding fathers wished. It’s more about being a biggoted jerk towards both gays and muslims while pretending in bad faith that you are defending discriminations against the formers because you care about freedom of cult even though double standards!, it’s only about people who ain’t brown.

Geez, you guys are like batman villains. So predictable you become boring. « I wonder what xDaunt/Danglar view is on that issue... What’s the best way to be a complete a-hole about it? Oh here we go! Nailed it. »

I’m comforted to know the depth of your understanding of opposite views in politics is that they’re motivated by being assholes.

I’m more of the opinion that admitting there are other views with rational reasons for holding them is key in America today. You sound like you’re very tolerant of other views, but then are shocked to discover there exist other views, and break out the pejoratives to deal with the conflict.

Why would you even dignify that shit with a response?

Someones got to keep the French person talking about Us politics stereotype entertained.

Seriously i’m all for diversity of opinion, and I get the rational behind most right wing opinions. But when it comes to those two, i just don’t get it. I mean on top of my head. Lgbt rights? Against it of course! Nazis marching? Freedom of opinion! Torture? All for it! Anti racism? Literally cancer! Assassinating innocent civilians? Yep! Muslims? Complete danger, horrible people! Refugees fleeing war? Fuuuuuuuuck them! Absurd inequalities? Fuck the poor! Healthcare affordable for everyone? Let the poor die, I don’t wanna pay more my premium. Etc etc etc...

I really hope that it’s nothing to do with standard US right wingers. Just with those two. There is a point where I stop looking at reasonable divergence of opinions (which i have with, say, standard french right wingers, whose argument i usually completely understand), and just start wondering what kind of people think like that.

If you find me a single post by either of them that shows, say, an atom of compassion (considering Danglars volume of contribution, it shouldn’t be difficult), I’m ready to apologize. And compassion is a human virtue, not a liberal opinion.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 04 2017 22:29 GMT
#188323
On December 05 2017 07:28 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2017 07:24 kollin wrote:
The failure of the right-wingers here to respond to the strongest refutations of their arguments kind of underlines the absurdist nightmare that this thread is.

Just remember that we started out as being from your country and learned much of what we are from you.

They abolished slavery before us, so we pretty much lose that argument forever.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
December 04 2017 22:30 GMT
#188324
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-04 22:35:43
December 04 2017 22:32 GMT
#188325
Why don't we make this cake thing easy, business owners must carry out every transaction in which the identity of the buyer is irrelevant. i.e if it's doable by a one time payment and you're done there can't be a legal reason to deny it. Then we don't need to argue about what a protected class is all day
kollin
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom8380 Posts
December 04 2017 22:34 GMT
#188326
On December 05 2017 07:28 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2017 07:24 kollin wrote:
The failure of the right-wingers here to respond to the strongest refutations of their arguments kind of underlines the absurdist nightmare that this thread is.

Just remember that we started out as being from your country and learned much of what we are from you.

I don't mean it's a failure of the right wing in general - just particular people in this thread. That being said, you're right - maybe the persecution complex the evangelical right has is rooted in their flight from England due to their religion. Ironic how that same evangelical right is too coddled up in fear and hatred to allow present-day refugees the same opportunity that their forebears did.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-04 22:40:04
December 04 2017 22:37 GMT
#188327
On December 05 2017 07:34 kollin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2017 07:28 Sermokala wrote:
On December 05 2017 07:24 kollin wrote:
The failure of the right-wingers here to respond to the strongest refutations of their arguments kind of underlines the absurdist nightmare that this thread is.

Just remember that we started out as being from your country and learned much of what we are from you.

I don't mean it's a failure of the right wing in general - just particular people in this thread. That being said, you're right - maybe the persecution complex the evangelical right has is rooted in their flight from England due to their religion. Ironic how that same evangelical right is too coddled up in fear and hatred to allow present-day refugees the same opportunity that their forebears did.

a fair number of those that long ago fled was because the area was too tolerant of heretics, not because it wasn't tolerant enough.
they weren't seeking religious freedom, they wanted to adopt a mcuh stricter code.

and re: biff;
they represent a minority of right-wingers, there are quite a few of similar ilk, but far from a majority of the right.
the more typical right-wingers are more reasonable (far as I know at least, my calibration is far from perfect as there'es too much crazy for me to follow most of it).
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
IyMoon
Profile Joined April 2016
United States1249 Posts
December 04 2017 22:37 GMT
#188328
A women who has said she was in a relationship with her when she was 17 and him 30+ has produced some evidence of it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/woman-shares-new-evidence-of-relationship-with-roy-moore-when-she-was-17/2017/12/04/0c3d1cde-d903-11e7-a841-2066faf731ef_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_debbie-510pm:homepage/story&utm_term=.fa1c085d2f92
Something witty
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
December 04 2017 22:38 GMT
#188329
On December 05 2017 07:32 Nyxisto wrote:
Why don't we make this cake thing easy, business owners must carry out every transaction in which the identity of the buyer is irrelevant. i.e if it's doable by a one time payment and you're done there can't be a legal reason to deny it. Then we don't need to argue about what's a protected class is all day


That sounds miserable for business owners and employees. Imagine someone constantly passive-aggressively harassing you via their patronage (i.e sexually explicit or violent cake messages) .
Logo
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7888 Posts
December 04 2017 22:39 GMT
#188330
On December 05 2017 07:37 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2017 07:34 kollin wrote:
On December 05 2017 07:28 Sermokala wrote:
On December 05 2017 07:24 kollin wrote:
The failure of the right-wingers here to respond to the strongest refutations of their arguments kind of underlines the absurdist nightmare that this thread is.

Just remember that we started out as being from your country and learned much of what we are from you.

I don't mean it's a failure of the right wing in general - just particular people in this thread. That being said, you're right - maybe the persecution complex the evangelical right has is rooted in their flight from England due to their religion. Ironic how that same evangelical right is too coddled up in fear and hatred to allow present-day refugees the same opportunity that their forebears did.

a fair number of those that long ago fled was because the area was too tolerant of heretics, not because it wasn't tolerant enough.
they weren't seeking religious freedom, they wanted to adopt a mcuh stricter code.

and re: biff;
they represent a minority of right-wingers, there are quite a few of similar ilk, but far from a majority of the right.
the more typical right-wingers are more reasonable (or at least used to be; due to the large amounts of the right that started going crzay ~1990 my calibration may be off).

Seriously it’s good to know because I was started to get freaked out.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 04 2017 22:40 GMT
#188331
On December 05 2017 07:34 kollin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2017 07:28 Sermokala wrote:
On December 05 2017 07:24 kollin wrote:
The failure of the right-wingers here to respond to the strongest refutations of their arguments kind of underlines the absurdist nightmare that this thread is.

Just remember that we started out as being from your country and learned much of what we are from you.

I don't mean it's a failure of the right wing in general - just particular people in this thread. That being said, you're right - maybe the persecution complex the evangelical right has is rooted in their flight from England due to their religion. Ironic how that same evangelical right is too coddled up in fear and hatred to allow present-day refugees the same opportunity that their forebears did.

It is easier to understand if you view them as a cultivated voter base that the GOP has been catering to for +20 years. The culture war in the US has been the GOP bread and butter since the late 1990s. Look at Alabama, a state where 50% of voters say they will never vote for a Democrat in recent polling. They didn’t come to that opinion all on their own. That type of grievance politics is the foundation of the GOP’s base for 20 years. Not free markets. Not management and small government. The grievance of white, Christian voters.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-04 22:42:34
December 04 2017 22:41 GMT
#188332
On December 05 2017 07:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2017 07:37 zlefin wrote:
On December 05 2017 07:34 kollin wrote:
On December 05 2017 07:28 Sermokala wrote:
On December 05 2017 07:24 kollin wrote:
The failure of the right-wingers here to respond to the strongest refutations of their arguments kind of underlines the absurdist nightmare that this thread is.

Just remember that we started out as being from your country and learned much of what we are from you.

I don't mean it's a failure of the right wing in general - just particular people in this thread. That being said, you're right - maybe the persecution complex the evangelical right has is rooted in their flight from England due to their religion. Ironic how that same evangelical right is too coddled up in fear and hatred to allow present-day refugees the same opportunity that their forebears did.

a fair number of those that long ago fled was because the area was too tolerant of heretics, not because it wasn't tolerant enough.
they weren't seeking religious freedom, they wanted to adopt a mcuh stricter code.

and re: biff;
they represent a minority of right-wingers, there are quite a few of similar ilk, but far from a majority of the right.
the more typical right-wingers are more reasonable (or at least used to be; due to the large amounts of the right that started going crzay ~1990 my calibration may be off).

Seriously it’s good to know because I was started to get freaked out.

there are several other kinds of problematic crazy of course; especially ever since the 90s when parts of the right started really going cray-cray.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13926 Posts
December 04 2017 22:41 GMT
#188333
On December 05 2017 07:29 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2017 07:28 Sermokala wrote:
On December 05 2017 07:24 kollin wrote:
The failure of the right-wingers here to respond to the strongest refutations of their arguments kind of underlines the absurdist nightmare that this thread is.

Just remember that we started out as being from your country and learned much of what we are from you.

They abolished slavery before us, so we pretty much lose that argument forever.

They started the slave trade so no one wins that argument.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 04 2017 22:45 GMT
#188334
On December 05 2017 07:41 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2017 07:29 Plansix wrote:
On December 05 2017 07:28 Sermokala wrote:
On December 05 2017 07:24 kollin wrote:
The failure of the right-wingers here to respond to the strongest refutations of their arguments kind of underlines the absurdist nightmare that this thread is.

Just remember that we started out as being from your country and learned much of what we are from you.

They abolished slavery before us, so we pretty much lose that argument forever.

They started the slave trade so no one wins that argument.

They also perfected modern Imperialism and made it seem so awesome that other nations tried to do it. Unlike the US. We just murdered all the native people and took their lands when we expended. We all live in glass houses.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
December 04 2017 22:45 GMT
#188335
On December 05 2017 07:38 Logo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2017 07:32 Nyxisto wrote:
Why don't we make this cake thing easy, business owners must carry out every transaction in which the identity of the buyer is irrelevant. i.e if it's doable by a one time payment and you're done there can't be a legal reason to deny it. Then we don't need to argue about what's a protected class is all day


That sounds miserable for business owners and employees. Imagine someone constantly passive-aggressively harassing you via their patronage (i.e sexually explicit or violent cake messages) .


That sounds like an obscure edge case because very few products can be customised that way. You could probably include the qualification that the products cannot be demeaning or used for harassment or whatever
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-04 22:46:36
December 04 2017 22:46 GMT
#188336
On December 05 2017 07:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2017 07:21 Sermokala wrote:
On December 05 2017 07:18 xDaunt wrote:
On December 05 2017 07:15 Danglars wrote:
On December 05 2017 07:08 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 05 2017 06:40 xDaunt wrote:
On December 05 2017 06:28 doomdonker wrote:
On December 05 2017 06:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On December 05 2017 06:12 xDaunt wrote:
You guys need to lay off Danglars. He's the only one who is remotely close to correctly framing the cake shop case. Here's the question that was certified by SCOTUS:

Whether applying Colorado’s public-accommodation law to compel artists to create expression that violates their sincerely held religious beliefs about marriage violates the Free Speech or Free Exercise Clauses of the First Amendment.


Clearly this is about freedom of religion (free exercise) and freedom of speech.

I love how freedom of remigion is so sacred when it’s about being a homophobic biggoted (christian) c..., but let’s ban all muslims to enter the country because muslims are the new jews.

Consistency, people.


xDaunt is supportive of nationalism so he’s being consistent here. Cut through the crap and he’s basically saying Western (rather baptist because most Church of England diocese I’ve been a part of have zilch relation to the shit I hear in Ohio) values much be kept sacred and that means keeping the muslims and their value beliefs out.

Can’t see how it isn’t racist but apparently the only way to be racist anymore is to wear a white hood and a flaming cross. Even then, apparently that isn’t enough considering they consistently deflect Trump’s racism with something from they believe to be from the left.


There, fixed that for you. No need to be so limiting.

Oh ok, so please admit it had nothing to do with freedom of religion or being accepting and respectful of different faiths, as the founding fathers wished. It’s more about being a biggoted jerk towards both gays and muslims while pretending in bad faith that you are defending discriminations against the formers because you care about freedom of cult even though double standards!, it’s only about people who ain’t brown.

Geez, you guys are like batman villains. So predictable you become boring. « I wonder what xDaunt/Danglar view is on that issue... What’s the best way to be a complete a-hole about it? Oh here we go! Nailed it. »

I’m comforted to know the depth of your understanding of opposite views in politics is that they’re motivated by being assholes.

I’m more of the opinion that admitting there are other views with rational reasons for holding them is key in America today. You sound like you’re very tolerant of other views, but then are shocked to discover there exist other views, and break out the pejoratives to deal with the conflict.

Why would you even dignify that shit with a response?

Someones got to keep the French person talking about Us politics stereotype entertained.

Seriously i’m all for diversity of opinion, and I get the rational behind most right wing opinions. But when it comes to those two, i just don’t get it. I mean on top of my head. Lgbt rights? Against it of course! Nazis marching? Freedom of opinion! Torture? All for it! Anti racism? Literally cancer! Assassinating innocent civilians? Yep! Muslims? Complete danger, horrible people! Absurd inequalities? Fuck the poor! Healthcare affordable for everyone? Let the poor die, I don’t wanna pay more my premium. Etc etc etc...

I really hope that it’s nothing to do with standard US right wingers. Just with those two. There is a point where I stop looking at reasonable divergence of opinions (which i have with, say, standard french right wingers, whose argument i usually completely understand), and just start wondering what kind of people think like that.

If you find me a single post by either of them that shows, say, an atom of compassion (considering Danglars volume of contribution, it shouldn’t be difficult), I’m ready to apologize. And compassion is a human virtue, not a liberal opinion.


Sadly they're fairly standard run of the mill conservatives nowadays. If anything, after reading facebook comments, they are actually less dumb than the average ones, which is quite shocking. The ones you'll find at the voting booths and in facebook comments will shout in your face that Hillary murdered Ben Ghazi for hacking her emails because she sold uranium to the russians. the conservative posters here will just allude to it but won't straight up admit to believing it.
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13926 Posts
December 04 2017 22:46 GMT
#188337
On December 05 2017 07:34 kollin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2017 07:28 Sermokala wrote:
On December 05 2017 07:24 kollin wrote:
The failure of the right-wingers here to respond to the strongest refutations of their arguments kind of underlines the absurdist nightmare that this thread is.

Just remember that we started out as being from your country and learned much of what we are from you.

I don't mean it's a failure of the right wing in general - just particular people in this thread. That being said, you're right - maybe the persecution complex the evangelical right has is rooted in their flight from England due to their religion. Ironic how that same evangelical right is too coddled up in fear and hatred to allow present-day refugees the same opportunity that their forebears did.

And its not like those people came from just the UK with that complex. if you were exiled from your ancestral homes because of your religion you tend to hold onto that religion as your identity harder then other influences on your identity.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
December 04 2017 22:47 GMT
#188338
On December 05 2017 07:24 kollin wrote:
The failure of the right-wingers here to respond to the strongest refutations of their arguments kind of underlines the absurdist nightmare that this thread is.

No one has ducked anything. You're living in a fantasy land.
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
December 04 2017 22:48 GMT
#188339
On December 05 2017 07:37 IyMoon wrote:
A women who has said she was in a relationship with her when she was 17 and him 30+ has produced some evidence of it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/woman-shares-new-evidence-of-relationship-with-roy-moore-when-she-was-17/2017/12/04/0c3d1cde-d903-11e7-a841-2066faf731ef_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_debbie-510pm:homepage/story&utm_term=.fa1c085d2f92

This is probably the most damning evidence so far. There is a lot more evidence than the single yearbook signature.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21670 Posts
December 04 2017 22:52 GMT
#188340
On December 05 2017 06:07 Adreme wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2017 06:01 Kyadytim wrote:
On December 05 2017 05:57 ticklishmusic wrote:
Oh, this is kinda fun:

The GOP had originally intended to abolish the AMT. But on Friday, with the clock running out — and money running short — Senate Republicans put the AMT back into their bill. Unfortunately for McConnell, they forgot to lower the AMT after doing so.

This is a big problem. The Senate bill brings the normal corporate rate down to 20 percent — while leaving the alternative minimum rate at … 20 percent. The legislation would still allow corporations to claim a wide variety of tax credits and deductions — it just renders all them completely worthless. Companies can either take no deductions, and pay a 20 percent rate — or take lots of deductions … and pay a 20 percent rate.


Source

Pretty sure someone mentioned that a few pages back but it got buried under this cake thing. I really hope this ends up forcing Republicans to hold a full vote in the Senate again, because Republican leadership might have some trouble getting the on the fence Senators to vote for it again. Especially when they made empty promises in exchange for those votes.

On December 05 2017 05:21 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:



Doesn't matter they just needed to get a bill to conference and can fix it there. Why even hold a revote when conference committee can fix it.

From what I understand they need to redo the vote in both House and Senate after the conference reconciliation.

Failing that they can pass the unmodded House bill in the Senate or visa versa.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
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