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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Hitch-22
Profile Blog Joined February 2013
Canada753 Posts
February 05 2013 02:28 GMT
#1861
On February 05 2013 11:19 BlueBird. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2013 11:00 Hitch-22 wrote:
Has anyone been talking about this?



Sorry I'm jumping into this thread 93 pages in (at least 3 pages of knowledge behind) hahaha


They passed an aid package a few days ago, I believe it passed house and senate, I do believe it took way too long though.


Yeah they opened up the vote shortly after this speech in fact, it was rather moving and made me kind of a fan hahaha
"We all let our sword do the talking for us once in awhile I guess" - Bregor, the legendary critical striker and critical misser who triple crits 2 horses with 1 arrow but lands 3 1's in a row
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 05 2013 03:07 GMT
#1862
Wonder if/when South Western Republicans will start touting renewable's rather than Coal as Arizona along with Texas has joined the game: As Solar is now being purchased for less than Coal.

First Solar Inc. (FSLR), the world’s largest maker of thin-film solar panels, may sell electricity at a lower rate than new coal plants earn, according to a regulatory filing from a project it purchased in New Mexico.

El Paso Electric Co. (EE) agreed to buy power from First Solar’s the 50-megawatt Macho Springs project for 5.79 cents a kilowatt- hour, according to a Jan. 22 procedural order from the New Mexico Public Regulation Commission. That’s less than half the 12.8 cents a kilowatt-hour for power from typical new coal plants, according to models compiled by Bloomberg.
First Solar, which said in a statement yesterday that it bought the Macho Springs project from Element Power Solar, didn’t disclose any of the state and federal incentives that will boost the company’s revenue from the project.

The Macho Springs rate would be “the lowest solar power purchase agreement price we have ever seen,” Aaron Chew, an analyst at Maxim Group LLC in New York, said in an e-mail. It’s less than half the rate that First Solar will get for its Antelope Valley, Topaz, and Agua Caliente projects, he said.

Federal and state incentives will probably supplement First Solar’s revenue from the project. That support includes a 30 percent federal business energy investment tax credit, according to Anthony Kim, an analyst for Bloomberg New Energy Finance said today in an interview.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
February 05 2013 03:29 GMT
#1863
On February 05 2013 12:07 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Wonder if/when South Western Republicans will start touting renewable's rather than Coal as Arizona along with Texas has joined the game: As Solar is now being purchased for less than Coal.

Show nested quote +
First Solar Inc. (FSLR), the world’s largest maker of thin-film solar panels, may sell electricity at a lower rate than new coal plants earn, according to a regulatory filing from a project it purchased in New Mexico.

El Paso Electric Co. (EE) agreed to buy power from First Solar’s the 50-megawatt Macho Springs project for 5.79 cents a kilowatt- hour, according to a Jan. 22 procedural order from the New Mexico Public Regulation Commission. That’s less than half the 12.8 cents a kilowatt-hour for power from typical new coal plants, according to models compiled by Bloomberg.
First Solar, which said in a statement yesterday that it bought the Macho Springs project from Element Power Solar, didn’t disclose any of the state and federal incentives that will boost the company’s revenue from the project.

The Macho Springs rate would be “the lowest solar power purchase agreement price we have ever seen,” Aaron Chew, an analyst at Maxim Group LLC in New York, said in an e-mail. It’s less than half the rate that First Solar will get for its Antelope Valley, Topaz, and Agua Caliente projects, he said.

Federal and state incentives will probably supplement First Solar’s revenue from the project. That support includes a 30 percent federal business energy investment tax credit, according to Anthony Kim, an analyst for Bloomberg New Energy Finance said today in an interview.


Source

Probably not, to my knowledge solar is only competitive with subsidies.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
February 05 2013 03:31 GMT
#1864
On February 05 2013 12:29 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2013 12:07 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Wonder if/when South Western Republicans will start touting renewable's rather than Coal as Arizona along with Texas has joined the game: As Solar is now being purchased for less than Coal.

First Solar Inc. (FSLR), the world’s largest maker of thin-film solar panels, may sell electricity at a lower rate than new coal plants earn, according to a regulatory filing from a project it purchased in New Mexico.

El Paso Electric Co. (EE) agreed to buy power from First Solar’s the 50-megawatt Macho Springs project for 5.79 cents a kilowatt- hour, according to a Jan. 22 procedural order from the New Mexico Public Regulation Commission. That’s less than half the 12.8 cents a kilowatt-hour for power from typical new coal plants, according to models compiled by Bloomberg.
First Solar, which said in a statement yesterday that it bought the Macho Springs project from Element Power Solar, didn’t disclose any of the state and federal incentives that will boost the company’s revenue from the project.

The Macho Springs rate would be “the lowest solar power purchase agreement price we have ever seen,” Aaron Chew, an analyst at Maxim Group LLC in New York, said in an e-mail. It’s less than half the rate that First Solar will get for its Antelope Valley, Topaz, and Agua Caliente projects, he said.

Federal and state incentives will probably supplement First Solar’s revenue from the project. That support includes a 30 percent federal business energy investment tax credit, according to Anthony Kim, an analyst for Bloomberg New Energy Finance said today in an interview.


Source

Probably not, to my knowledge solar is only competitive with subsidies.


Don't we have huge subsidies for coal?
shikata ga nai
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
February 05 2013 03:51 GMT
#1865
On February 05 2013 12:31 sam!zdat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2013 12:29 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On February 05 2013 12:07 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Wonder if/when South Western Republicans will start touting renewable's rather than Coal as Arizona along with Texas has joined the game: As Solar is now being purchased for less than Coal.

First Solar Inc. (FSLR), the world’s largest maker of thin-film solar panels, may sell electricity at a lower rate than new coal plants earn, according to a regulatory filing from a project it purchased in New Mexico.

El Paso Electric Co. (EE) agreed to buy power from First Solar’s the 50-megawatt Macho Springs project for 5.79 cents a kilowatt- hour, according to a Jan. 22 procedural order from the New Mexico Public Regulation Commission. That’s less than half the 12.8 cents a kilowatt-hour for power from typical new coal plants, according to models compiled by Bloomberg.
First Solar, which said in a statement yesterday that it bought the Macho Springs project from Element Power Solar, didn’t disclose any of the state and federal incentives that will boost the company’s revenue from the project.

The Macho Springs rate would be “the lowest solar power purchase agreement price we have ever seen,” Aaron Chew, an analyst at Maxim Group LLC in New York, said in an e-mail. It’s less than half the rate that First Solar will get for its Antelope Valley, Topaz, and Agua Caliente projects, he said.

Federal and state incentives will probably supplement First Solar’s revenue from the project. That support includes a 30 percent federal business energy investment tax credit, according to Anthony Kim, an analyst for Bloomberg New Energy Finance said today in an interview.


Source

Probably not, to my knowledge solar is only competitive with subsidies.


Don't we have huge subsidies for coal?

No (they shouldn't exist at all, but they are not large), and at a per megawatt level there's really no comparison.

http://www.eia.gov/analysis/requests/subsidy/pdf/subsidy.pdf
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
February 05 2013 04:01 GMT
#1866
Well, at least according to that they've dropped from 3.3 billion to 500 million from 2007 to 2010, so that's progress I guess
shikata ga nai
ZeaL.
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States5955 Posts
February 05 2013 04:11 GMT
#1867
If prices for solar cells continue their steady decrease, eventually solar will supplant other electricity generating methods in sunny areas even without subsidy.

[image loading]

As economies of scale increase and technology progresses solar is becoming exponentially more attractive.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 05 2013 05:39 GMT
#1868
Ohio Gov. John Kasich announced Monday that he will accept the Medicaid expansion under the Affordable Care Act, becoming the fifth Republican governor to embrace the provision of the health care reform law that the Supreme Court made optional.

The governor unveiled the decision as part of his budget proposal.

“We are going to extend Medicaid for the working poor and for those who are jobless trying to find work,” Kasich said at a press conference in Columbus. “It makes great sense for the state of Ohio because it will allow us to provide greater care with our own dollars.”

The four other Republican governors to back the Medicaid expansion are Brian Sandoval of Nevada, Susana Martinez of New Mexico, Jack Dalrymple of North Dakota and Jan Brewer of Arizona. About a dozen GOP governors from red states have rejected the expansion; others from mostly blue and purple states have yet to decide. Democratic governors have broadly embraced it.

It’s an enticing deal: the expansion would extend Medicaid eligibility to their residents up to roughly 133 percent of the poverty line. The federal government would cover the full cost of the new beneficiaries in the early years and 90 percent after 2020.

“The net effect is 270,000 Ohioans coming into the [Medicaid] program,” said Greg Moody, the director of Ohio’s Office of Health Transformation. “Over two years the state of Ohio will have saved $235 million as a result of the decision to extend coverage.”

Kasich’s decision could influence other undecided Republican governors — such as Chris Christie of New Jersey, Tom Corbett of Pennsylvania and Scott Walker of Wisconsin — who are caught between wanting to improve the lives of their constituents and to remain in good standing with the conservative movement, which detests the Affordable Care Act in general and wants leaders to turn down the Medicaid expansion in particular.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
February 05 2013 05:48 GMT
#1869
On February 05 2013 13:11 ZeaL. wrote:
If prices for solar cells continue their steady decrease, eventually solar will supplant other electricity generating methods in sunny areas even without subsidy.

[image loading]

As economies of scale increase and technology progresses solar is becoming exponentially more attractive.

Yep, IMO that's why there's no need to jump the gun. We need to establish a rational system for dealing with pollution long-term, not just cram out existing technology now.

Short term (<5 years) we'll continue to drop CO2 production by replacing coal power with natural gas power and subsidized renewables. So between now and the future where we'll have better solar tech, we'll still be making nice progress!
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-05 07:46:32
February 05 2013 07:45 GMT
#1870
sounds like an argument for non shortsighted, basic research.

btw, how could solar have started without subsidies, given the risk distribution
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
February 05 2013 07:46 GMT
#1871
Forget it! Far too rational
shikata ga nai
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
February 05 2013 12:36 GMT
#1872
On February 05 2013 13:11 ZeaL. wrote:
If prices for solar cells continue their steady decrease, eventually solar will supplant other electricity generating methods in sunny areas even without subsidy.

[image loading]

As economies of scale increase and technology progresses solar is becoming exponentially more attractive.

Even the most sunny areas don't have sunshine 24 hours a day. We may eventually hit a barrier where renewable energy production is practically free, but it we don't have the same control over it compared to fossil fuels (or nuclear). We'll have to rely on both to satisfy the needs of society.
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-05 13:02:52
February 05 2013 13:01 GMT
#1873
On February 05 2013 21:36 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2013 13:11 ZeaL. wrote:
If prices for solar cells continue their steady decrease, eventually solar will supplant other electricity generating methods in sunny areas even without subsidy.

[image loading]

As economies of scale increase and technology progresses solar is becoming exponentially more attractive.

Even the most sunny areas don't have sunshine 24 hours a day. We may eventually hit a barrier where renewable energy production is practically free, but it we don't have the same control over it compared to fossil fuels (or nuclear). We'll have to rely on both to satisfy the needs of society.

There's technology to store solar power. I agree that it's likely and practical that in the future fossil fuels could be a backup to solar.

Here's a good article on how solar energy is becoming cheap and competitive from a few weeks ago: http://noahpinionblog.blogspot.com/2013/01/solar-its-about-to-be-whole-new-world.html
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
February 05 2013 15:20 GMT
#1874
i remember playing earth 2150 with this set-up. dem battery buildings are a total waste of resources.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
February 05 2013 16:36 GMT
#1875
Isn't that what fuel cells are for?
shikata ga nai
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
February 05 2013 17:08 GMT
#1876
On February 05 2013 16:45 oneofthem wrote:
sounds like an argument for non shortsighted, basic research.

btw, how could solar have started without subsidies, given the risk distribution

Well you'd still have research being done. Solar would just need to wait until it was viable for its time in the sun.

Yes, that would mean less solar now (at least in the US) but despite its growth solar is still an insignificant source of power.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
February 05 2013 17:43 GMT
#1877
I want to clarify that I do believe solar is probably the future for a very large portion of our population, and anything I say negatively towards it is from an engineering and problem solving perspective. It's definitely not meant in a "pfft, solar is for hippies" kind of way.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18826 Posts
February 05 2013 17:50 GMT
#1878
On February 05 2013 14:39 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
Ohio Gov. John Kasich announced Monday that he will accept the Medicaid expansion under the Affordable Care Act, becoming the fifth Republican governor to embrace the provision of the health care reform law that the Supreme Court made optional.

The governor unveiled the decision as part of his budget proposal.

“We are going to extend Medicaid for the working poor and for those who are jobless trying to find work,” Kasich said at a press conference in Columbus. “It makes great sense for the state of Ohio because it will allow us to provide greater care with our own dollars.”

The four other Republican governors to back the Medicaid expansion are Brian Sandoval of Nevada, Susana Martinez of New Mexico, Jack Dalrymple of North Dakota and Jan Brewer of Arizona. About a dozen GOP governors from red states have rejected the expansion; others from mostly blue and purple states have yet to decide. Democratic governors have broadly embraced it.

It’s an enticing deal: the expansion would extend Medicaid eligibility to their residents up to roughly 133 percent of the poverty line. The federal government would cover the full cost of the new beneficiaries in the early years and 90 percent after 2020.

“The net effect is 270,000 Ohioans coming into the [Medicaid] program,” said Greg Moody, the director of Ohio’s Office of Health Transformation. “Over two years the state of Ohio will have saved $235 million as a result of the decision to extend coverage.”

Kasich’s decision could influence other undecided Republican governors — such as Chris Christie of New Jersey, Tom Corbett of Pennsylvania and Scott Walker of Wisconsin — who are caught between wanting to improve the lives of their constituents and to remain in good standing with the conservative movement, which detests the Affordable Care Act in general and wants leaders to turn down the Medicaid expansion in particular.


Source

Looks like someones already getting antsy for 2014
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
February 05 2013 17:55 GMT
#1879
On February 06 2013 02:43 aksfjh wrote:
I want to clarify that I do believe solar is probably the future for a very large portion of our population, and anything I say negatively towards it is from an engineering and problem solving perspective. It's definitely not meant in a "pfft, solar is for hippies" kind of way.


Well, too bad the government can only put lots of resources into solving engineering problems when it wants to vaporize cities Gotta keep our priorities straight
shikata ga nai
TheFrankOne
Profile Joined December 2010
United States667 Posts
February 05 2013 23:00 GMT
#1880
On February 06 2013 02:08 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2013 16:45 oneofthem wrote:
sounds like an argument for non shortsighted, basic research.

btw, how could solar have started without subsidies, given the risk distribution

Well you'd still have research being done. Solar would just need to wait until it was viable for its time in the sun.

Yes, that would mean less solar now (at least in the US) but despite its growth solar is still an insignificant source of power.


First of all, nice pun.

Secondly, I really don't see research being at the same levels if the subsidies weren't there because the price point you would need to reach would be driven down, making the research need to cover much more ground before any pay off can be achieved. Fewer companies in the market, less interest in breaking into the market, less R&D going towards the product. I don't know enough about solar to say that this is absolutely true, plus counterfactuals are hard, but it makes sense to me.

If we want more renewable energy, it should be subsidized, the market isn't pricing carbon at all so there is, in effect, a massive subsidy going towards coal/oil/natural gas producers. I don't think I like the word subsidy there, but they are getting away with externalizing a huge amount of environmental damage, and keeping solar/wind subsidies seems far more likely to me than a carbon tax. (I'd gladly trade the subsidies for the tax.)
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