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United States42270 Posts
On November 22 2017 08:58 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 08:03 KwarK wrote:On November 22 2017 07:57 Mohdoo wrote:On November 22 2017 07:42 Plansix wrote:
I knew we were going to get to the request for the If/When flow chart to “How to avoid accidently committing sexual assault when booze is involved.”
Really folks, its pretty easy to see this stuff coming and avoid it when having encounters with non-hypothetical women.
I think the common case that is a bit more troublesome is this: 1. Man goes out to get trashed 2. Woman goes out to get trashed 3. These two totally trashed folks happen upon each other some time late at night and end up banging one out 4. Girl wakes up the next day, looks to her side and is like "omfg I was raped" 5. Dude wakes up and is like "lol hello, nice to meet you", him not remembering anything either He had no intention of having sex with this woman prior to his 7th beer. Same with her. But after those final shots, they were slobbering all over each other and totally each digging it prior to banging it out. But she's super broken up about it the next day. She feels ashamed and whatnot. Did the dude do anything wrong? Neither was in a position to consent to anything. Both should have taken a look at the state of the other one and not continued. They both failed to do that and both drunkenly raped the other. Are you sure you didn't just confuse this with your 'everybody is racist, it's not an insult' argument because the words are similar or something? By this definition most people I know of both genders are rapists and many people, of both genders, habitually go out for some mutual rape.
If we're talking about people who already know each other and would happily have sex with each other sober, they have no reason to suspect the consent to sex is contingent upon the alcohol. Just like if we regularly did business and you bought the standard amount of items from me for the usual price I would have no reason to suspect that the alcohol impacted the contract. That's fine.
Is that what we're talking about here? Because I thought we were talking about two strangers who each meet someone completely trashed and decide to fuck them? In that case while each of them is responsible for their own state of inebriation each of them is also responsible for their own failure to not have sex with someone trashed.
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On November 22 2017 07:45 Nebuchad wrote:
I value my capacity to have sex and not feel like a bad person a little less than I value a woman's capacity to wake up the next morning without feeling violated.
Those to are linked anyways. If i had sex with a person, and that person felt violated afterwards, i would feel like a bad person due to that (And rightfully so).
Which is one of the reasons why i try to prevent that from happening. A good way to do that is to only have sex with people that you are certain also want that, instead of those where you can afterwards claim that you thought they consented, but actually just didn't care.
That is always the crux of the issue in this discussion. If you go into it with good intentions, you probably won't run into problems. If you try to figure out the absolute minimum necessary consent to afterwards be able to claim that you thought they consented, you are on a bad path.
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On November 22 2017 09:09 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 09:05 Plansix wrote:Ok, well just make sure that you don't break the law while you do that, because some people can't say "No" when they are drunk too. So why do they drink if they'll devolve into someone that can't even decide for themselves what's in their own best interest? It you're as impaired as the person that can't say no, you won't be able to judge if the person truly doesn't want to say no. Knowing thyself is less important than the ability to get drunk so you can potentially put down a rape claim because you couldn't say no whilst being drunk?
If the reasoning here is that you are too impaired to say no so you have blame for the act, why is only one party here responsible when they are drunk?
It's not someone's fault if they are too drunk to judge the person truly wants to say no, but it's someones fault for being unable to say no while drunk.
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Norway28605 Posts
On November 22 2017 09:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 08:58 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 22 2017 08:03 KwarK wrote:On November 22 2017 07:57 Mohdoo wrote:On November 22 2017 07:42 Plansix wrote:
I knew we were going to get to the request for the If/When flow chart to “How to avoid accidently committing sexual assault when booze is involved.”
Really folks, its pretty easy to see this stuff coming and avoid it when having encounters with non-hypothetical women.
I think the common case that is a bit more troublesome is this: 1. Man goes out to get trashed 2. Woman goes out to get trashed 3. These two totally trashed folks happen upon each other some time late at night and end up banging one out 4. Girl wakes up the next day, looks to her side and is like "omfg I was raped" 5. Dude wakes up and is like "lol hello, nice to meet you", him not remembering anything either He had no intention of having sex with this woman prior to his 7th beer. Same with her. But after those final shots, they were slobbering all over each other and totally each digging it prior to banging it out. But she's super broken up about it the next day. She feels ashamed and whatnot. Did the dude do anything wrong? Neither was in a position to consent to anything. Both should have taken a look at the state of the other one and not continued. They both failed to do that and both drunkenly raped the other. Are you sure you didn't just confuse this with your 'everybody is racist, it's not an insult' argument because the words are similar or something? By this definition most people I know of both genders are rapists and many people, of both genders, habitually go out for some mutual rape. You didn't provide enough facts to your example. We don't know the relationship of the man and the woman. if they are a couple, it changes the facts. If they get trashed together and agree that they are going to have sex later, it changes the facts. But without additional facts, Kwark's point stands. As I said before, everyone is so concerned with the amount of booze, rather than the important issue: relationship between the parties involved.
One guy went to the club with his buddies. One girl went to the club with her girl friends. They both started pre-gaming at a friends place at 7 pm, then they went to the club around 10. Then they spent a couple hours dancing with strangers, at some point they started looking at each other, started flirting, talked a little bit. At 2 AM, they've both been drinking for 7 hours, people are starting to leave the club, they drunken-stumbly meet up near the entrance and just start making the fuck out. It's really hot and passionate. Guy says I live 5 minutes away wanna come? Girl says 'fuck yes'. They keep making out and grabbing each other while going back to his place. Both of them totally want the other and they end up having sex. The guy mentioned not having a condom, and the girl just went 'I don't fucking care'.
Girl wakes up the day after and thinks damn, that was kinda stupid. If there was a rick and morty universe where they decided to define this as 'both of them raping each other', I'd think the show jumped the shark.
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I'm a softy so I always want people to be helped rather than just shamed and caged so I view most of these cases through a lens of addiction and think it should be treated as such.
I take all this seriously and think this is still just the tip of the iceberg, but I'm wondering if this whole I can't legally consent when I'm drunk thing works for bar tabs?
On November 22 2017 09:19 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 09:02 Plansix wrote:On November 22 2017 08:58 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 22 2017 08:03 KwarK wrote:On November 22 2017 07:57 Mohdoo wrote:On November 22 2017 07:42 Plansix wrote:
I knew we were going to get to the request for the If/When flow chart to “How to avoid accidently committing sexual assault when booze is involved.”
Really folks, its pretty easy to see this stuff coming and avoid it when having encounters with non-hypothetical women.
I think the common case that is a bit more troublesome is this: 1. Man goes out to get trashed 2. Woman goes out to get trashed 3. These two totally trashed folks happen upon each other some time late at night and end up banging one out 4. Girl wakes up the next day, looks to her side and is like "omfg I was raped" 5. Dude wakes up and is like "lol hello, nice to meet you", him not remembering anything either He had no intention of having sex with this woman prior to his 7th beer. Same with her. But after those final shots, they were slobbering all over each other and totally each digging it prior to banging it out. But she's super broken up about it the next day. She feels ashamed and whatnot. Did the dude do anything wrong? Neither was in a position to consent to anything. Both should have taken a look at the state of the other one and not continued. They both failed to do that and both drunkenly raped the other. Are you sure you didn't just confuse this with your 'everybody is racist, it's not an insult' argument because the words are similar or something? By this definition most people I know of both genders are rapists and many people, of both genders, habitually go out for some mutual rape. You didn't provide enough facts to your example. We don't know the relationship of the man and the woman. if they are a couple, it changes the facts. If they get trashed together and agree that they are going to have sex later, it changes the facts. But without additional facts, Kwark's point stands. As I said before, everyone is so concerned with the amount of booze, rather than the important issue: relationship between the parties involved. One guy went to the club with his buddies. One girl went to the club with her girl friends. They both started pre-gaming at a friends place at 7 pm, then they went to the club around 10. Then they spent a couple hours dancing with strangers, at some point they started looking at each other, started flirting, talked a little bit. At 2 AM, they've both been drinking for 7 hours, people are starting to leave the club, they drunken-stumbly meet up near the entrance and just start making the fuck out. It's really hot and passionate. Guy says I live 5 minutes away wanna come? Girl says 'fuck yes'. They keep making out and grabbing each other while going back to his place. Both of them totally want the other and they end up having sex. The guy mentioned not having a condom, and the girl just went 'I don't fucking care'. Girl wakes up the day after and thinks damn, that was kinda stupid. If there was a rick and morty universe where they decided to define this as 'both of them raping each other', I'd think the show jumped the shark.
I have at least 3 friends who were conceived in such a way more or less.
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No party is responsible when both parties are drunk, that's what I'm trying to say (to a certain, let's not try and get nuance in these arguments because that'll make it all so much more difficult, sense) and that's what Drone is trying to say the entire time.
I'm against the people defending the person that can't deny consent with a "no" because she's too drunk and the other person is being held accountable. Both parties are responsible for drinking, sometimes one party will be taken advantage of (the nuanced case) and sometimes both parties will be too inebriated to have the concept of consent linger in their mind while getting riled up with hormones.
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United States42270 Posts
On November 22 2017 09:21 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm a softy so I always want people to be helped rather than just shamed and caged so I view most of these cases through a lens of addiction and think it should be treated as such.
I take all this seriously and think this is still just the tip of the iceberg, but I'm wondering if this whole I can't legally consent when I'm drunk thing works for bar tabs?
Contextually yes. Let's say the bartender got out the most expensive oldest whisky he had and offered you some. You agreed and drank some. That could be voidable.
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Norway28605 Posts
On November 22 2017 09:14 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 08:58 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 22 2017 08:03 KwarK wrote:On November 22 2017 07:57 Mohdoo wrote:On November 22 2017 07:42 Plansix wrote:
I knew we were going to get to the request for the If/When flow chart to “How to avoid accidently committing sexual assault when booze is involved.”
Really folks, its pretty easy to see this stuff coming and avoid it when having encounters with non-hypothetical women.
I think the common case that is a bit more troublesome is this: 1. Man goes out to get trashed 2. Woman goes out to get trashed 3. These two totally trashed folks happen upon each other some time late at night and end up banging one out 4. Girl wakes up the next day, looks to her side and is like "omfg I was raped" 5. Dude wakes up and is like "lol hello, nice to meet you", him not remembering anything either He had no intention of having sex with this woman prior to his 7th beer. Same with her. But after those final shots, they were slobbering all over each other and totally each digging it prior to banging it out. But she's super broken up about it the next day. She feels ashamed and whatnot. Did the dude do anything wrong? Neither was in a position to consent to anything. Both should have taken a look at the state of the other one and not continued. They both failed to do that and both drunkenly raped the other. Are you sure you didn't just confuse this with your 'everybody is racist, it's not an insult' argument because the words are similar or something? By this definition most people I know of both genders are rapists and many people, of both genders, habitually go out for some mutual rape. If we're talking about people who already know each other and would happily have sex with each other sober, they have no reason to suspect the consent to sex is contingent upon the alcohol. Just like if we regularly did business and you bought the standard amount of items from me for the usual price I would have no reason to suspect that the alcohol impacted the contract. That's fine. Is that what we're talking about here? Because I thought we were talking about two strangers who each meet someone completely trashed and decide to fuck them? In that case while each of them is responsible for their own state of inebriation each of them is also responsible for their own failure to not have sex with someone trashed.
You pretty much define every single one night stand as rape.
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United States42270 Posts
On November 22 2017 09:19 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 09:02 Plansix wrote:On November 22 2017 08:58 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 22 2017 08:03 KwarK wrote:On November 22 2017 07:57 Mohdoo wrote:On November 22 2017 07:42 Plansix wrote:
I knew we were going to get to the request for the If/When flow chart to “How to avoid accidently committing sexual assault when booze is involved.”
Really folks, its pretty easy to see this stuff coming and avoid it when having encounters with non-hypothetical women.
I think the common case that is a bit more troublesome is this: 1. Man goes out to get trashed 2. Woman goes out to get trashed 3. These two totally trashed folks happen upon each other some time late at night and end up banging one out 4. Girl wakes up the next day, looks to her side and is like "omfg I was raped" 5. Dude wakes up and is like "lol hello, nice to meet you", him not remembering anything either He had no intention of having sex with this woman prior to his 7th beer. Same with her. But after those final shots, they were slobbering all over each other and totally each digging it prior to banging it out. But she's super broken up about it the next day. She feels ashamed and whatnot. Did the dude do anything wrong? Neither was in a position to consent to anything. Both should have taken a look at the state of the other one and not continued. They both failed to do that and both drunkenly raped the other. Are you sure you didn't just confuse this with your 'everybody is racist, it's not an insult' argument because the words are similar or something? By this definition most people I know of both genders are rapists and many people, of both genders, habitually go out for some mutual rape. You didn't provide enough facts to your example. We don't know the relationship of the man and the woman. if they are a couple, it changes the facts. If they get trashed together and agree that they are going to have sex later, it changes the facts. But without additional facts, Kwark's point stands. As I said before, everyone is so concerned with the amount of booze, rather than the important issue: relationship between the parties involved. One guy went to the club with his buddies. One girl went to the club with her girl friends. They both started pre-gaming at a friends place at 7 pm, then they went to the club around 10. Then they spent a couple hours dancing with strangers, at some point they started looking at each other, started flirting, talked a little bit. At 2 AM, they've both been drinking for 7 hours, people are starting to leave the club, they drunken-stumbly meet up near the entrance and just start making the fuck out. It's really hot and passionate. Guy says I live 5 minutes away wanna come? Girl says 'fuck yes'. They keep making out and grabbing each other while going back to his place. Both of them totally want the other and they end up having sex. The guy mentioned not having a condom, and the girl just went 'I don't fucking care'. Girl wakes up the day after and thinks damn, that was kinda stupid. If there was a rick and morty universe where they decided to define this as 'both of them raping each other', I'd think the show jumped the shark.
Each of them decided to fuck a stranger who had been drinking for 7 hours. They're both shit.
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On November 22 2017 08:54 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 08:49 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 22 2017 08:00 KwarK wrote:On November 22 2017 05:51 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 22 2017 04:48 KwarK wrote:On November 22 2017 04:34 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 22 2017 04:28 KwarK wrote:On November 22 2017 04:22 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 22 2017 04:18 KwarK wrote:On November 22 2017 04:12 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Likewise, if a girl actively consents (just to be really clear, I am by no means including 'didn't say no audibly enough because she was drunk, but I'm including the 'come on LETS FUCK'), which drunk girls totally do, then no way does it qualify as rape, even if the girl totally regrets it afterwards and would not normally have had sex with that particular guy. This also isn't victim blaming - I don't acknowledge the victimhood. ;p What in the literal fuck eri. Stop raping people and then saying that it's their fault for getting horny drunk. You have a responsibility for your own involvement in sex beyond making sure you have an excuse and can get away with it in the morning. If you've obtained wasted consent but you're uncertain whether or not you would have been unable to get sober consent then the correct course of action is not "yeah, but nobody can prove whether or not I'd have had sober consent so technically it's her fault that we had this sex she didn't want to have". Seriously. Rethink your moral framework. That's fucked up. Literally 0 of this applies to sex that I myself have had. You trying to think this is behavior I'm projecting because I've been in 'that guy's position' is completely misplaced. I've had drunk girls be hysterically angry at me for not having had sex with them though. Like honestly, fuck off, you making this assumption towards me is way, way out of line. It still results from an incredibly fucked up moral framework. I'm fine with "if you make a sober decision to get drunk knowing that you'll probably drive while drunk then you made a sober decision to take that risk". Likewise if you make a sober decision to get drunk then sure, there's accountability there. Where you lose me is where you think it becomes morally okay for another person to take advantage of this because can use the above logic as an excuse to pin the blame for it on the victim. If what you're doing is harming another individual, and let's be very clear here, if the girl wakes up with fragments of memories from the blackout and feels like she's been raped then there has been harm, and then saying "technically you caused all this when you decided to get drunk", you're a sociopath. If your standard for moral behavior is technically having an excuse about how it's really their fault that they got raped, you're a sociopath. Apparently you don't do that, good for you. But you're fine with it. You defended it. If the girl is drunkenly inviting you to have sex with her then yes, she has a responsibility for her choice to get drunk. But that does not absolve you of your responsibility to say "no". You pull out one sentence of three posts I make and disregard every qualifier I made in that post and the other posts to justify calling me a rapist. I most certainly specified that being sober and looking for drunk girls is really scummy behavior. I am not morally absolving guys who do this. I am totally morally absolving guys who themselves are drunk, just 'slightly less drunk than the girl was', because I don't see how they deserve more blame for getting drunk than the girl did, when both of them wanted to have sex at the time. I also specified, at least twice, that I talk about active consent, not 'is obviously blackout drunk' - but being someone who has been really really drunk on many occasions (this is not a source of pride, but important for the discussion) I know that the line between 'I fully remember everything and feel amazingly in control of the situation' and 'I don't remember anything I did at all' is really easy to pass and often impossible for other people to understand whether you've crossed or not. Okay, I'll try and explain this in simple terms. Let's say you're a recovering meth addict. We're out together and you're pretty fucking drunk and I offer you meth, which you happily accept stating that you fucking love meth. Sure, you consented. And sure, although you were drunk at the time you ought to have been aware that relapsing was a risk before you got drunk. Plenty of ways that we can pin this on the meth addict and say that they're not a victim and that really it's their fault. That doesn't in any way change the fact that you only relapsed because I made a deliberate choice to cause it. That doesn't in any way reduce the moral accountability I have for the subsequent fallout. I might have an excuse that I can tell people for how it's totally not my fault, but it wouldn't have happened without me. One person having a share of responsibility does not absolve all others. The victim having partial responsibility does not make them no longer a victim. Which is exactly what you argued it did when you said "This also isn't victim blaming - I don't acknowledge the victimhood. ;p" If the girl wakes up feeling like she got raped and deals with all the same trauma that other rape victims do then you denying her victim status is just a way of getting what you did to be okay with Jesus. It doesn't change shit about the impact your choice had on her. You've still made her a victim, all you're doing is pinning it on her to make yourself feel better. Furthermore, it's totally victim blaming. You're shifting the burden of your own participation onto the other party, insisting that you couldn't possibly have known better than to participate if they drunkenly asked you to. The smiley was a particularly tasteless touch too. Honestly, if you really believe with the argument you made about drunk girls not being victims you should feel pretty bad about the person you choose to be. How is sex the same as meth, dude. Guys don't fucking go around thinking 'oh man, she'll totally regret having sex with me when she wakes up', they go 'oh man, awesome'. I'm not talking about girls who wake up being semi-raped, I'm saying that if a girl had drunken sex, this does not mean she was raped, even if she later on regrets it. You seem to think that I'm talking about sober guys picking up blackout drunk guys and having sex with them despite me explicitly stating that this is not what I mean and that at least is kind of rape, and then you present me with your regular counter-that argument. I'm talking about the 'both guy and girl are drunk, club is closing, they both want to go home with someone because being drunk makes them both horny.' Sure the girl is slightly more drunk than the guy is, and she might not normally want to have sex with that particular guy, but you can't expect the drunk guy to go like 'hm, wait, this girl is somewhat out of my league of what I can ordinary get laid from, she must be too drunk to consent otherwise she wouldn't go home with me'. I don't think the girl is a victim in this case, even if she regrets it, just like I don't think the guy who dropped his cellphone in the toilet or told his boss that he's an idiot is a victim. I mean technically you can say they're all victims of alcohol abuse, but not sexual. If you have reason to believe the person is going to regret the thing you got them to do with you while they were drunk after they sober up, don't do the thing with them. Meth, sex, whatever. It's a pretty simple rule. I don't think you're talking about sober guys, I haven't once said that, you keep insisting that I'm not understanding your argument when I am. If you're drunk and you think the other person is going to regret sex when they sober up, don't have sex with them. If you're a moral individual you shouldn't want to be initiate experiences that other people regret and wish had never happened. Dropping your phone in a toilet is an individual activity. Nobody else was involved. Sex isn't. The comparison doesn't make any kind of sense. It's a dumb comparison. A drunk person can drunkenly drop their phone in the toilet and be to blame for that. And a drunk person can drunkenly offer sex and be to blame for that. But in the offering sex example there is another individual who has to accept that offer for the sex to happen. That's why they're not comparable. A moral individual should decline to have sex with a wasted woman if he has any reason to suspect that the intoxication is connected to the offer of sex. Like I wrote in the previous post that you replied to ; 'Guys don't fucking go around thinking 'oh man, she'll totally regret having sex with me when she wakes up', they go 'oh man, awesome'.'. Literally (and I think I'm using this the literal way) no drunk person ever who is about to hook up thinks about whether the other person is going to regret it the morning after. Some might think about whether they themselves will regret it - followed by then going through with it, because they were drunk. You're essentially saying that drunk guys, also known as the dumbest guys on the planet, should go around evaluating whether they'd have a shot at the girl they're making out with if she were sober and factor this into the calculation of whether or not to take it one step further. It doesn't make sense and indicates to me that you've never been drunk. Which is not an attack - good for you if that's the case - but it seems like your approach of what a drunken person's thought process is like is completely off. The fact that you bring up this line of argument is basically either proof that you don't understand what drunkenness is like, or that you did in fact believe I was talking about sober guys. I've been drunk before. I got pretty buzzed last night. I don't lose all sense of morality when drunk. If you do, that's a you thing, not an alcohol thing.
I would totally agree in theory, but life is not theoretical, it's situational. When you are drunk, and the other person is drunk, and you are into a flirt you don't start thinking "oh wait, actually maybe she doesn't really want me, it's only because she is drunk". Accusing Drone to have a fucked up moral frame (and it's Drone, ffs - you could really chose someone else) because he states that simple truth is really obnoxious. It's very rare that someone drunk thinks "this girl is flirting with me, but in fact it's only because she is intoxicated, I'm probably not interesting to her at all. You think "It's Christmas, this girl likes me after all, best day of my life"!!
But to come back to your stuff even on a purely theoretical level, you can't make a rule out of it. We are always in a certain state when we do things, and one of them can be to have had a few drinks. And a shitload of people enter in relationships because the circumstances are totally right that day, although they would have rejected the other party on a bland, rainy working day. And most of the time you absolutely can't know if the other person is gonna hate herself for sleeping with you or if the wind has turned and tomorrow she will be totally in love.
I think Drone can testify that in Norway, where the temperature (and national temperament) is pretty cold, a gigantic amount of people get together because they get wasted at a party, end up sleeping together even though it hasn't crossed their mind ever before, and find out in the morning that well, now that it's done, why not. And because people are quite shy and introverted, most of those relationship would have never happened in a million year without alcohol being involved. Would have been utter rejection from both sides. All of those are a dice roll. Because in the morning, it can also be that one or both sides think "Geez, I hate myself" and that's it. Problem of your argument is that you assume that it's established in advance. It's not.
Hell, once I asked a Norwegian girl "So, how come your country didn't get extinct with all that sensuality runing around", and she answered "alcohol: we need to have no idea what we are doing".
Now you can have a guy who is totally clear, and the girl has had 50 bottles of vodka, and he totally sees that she is not herself at all and just takes advantage of it knowing that she would never even consider and that it will really damage her. That's horrible; I agree. But you can't make a broad generalization and accuse people of being morally fucked because they don't buy into an unnuanced argument based on fixed premises that rarely happen in real life.
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On November 22 2017 09:27 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 09:19 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 22 2017 09:02 Plansix wrote:On November 22 2017 08:58 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 22 2017 08:03 KwarK wrote:On November 22 2017 07:57 Mohdoo wrote:On November 22 2017 07:42 Plansix wrote:
I knew we were going to get to the request for the If/When flow chart to “How to avoid accidently committing sexual assault when booze is involved.”
Really folks, its pretty easy to see this stuff coming and avoid it when having encounters with non-hypothetical women.
I think the common case that is a bit more troublesome is this: 1. Man goes out to get trashed 2. Woman goes out to get trashed 3. These two totally trashed folks happen upon each other some time late at night and end up banging one out 4. Girl wakes up the next day, looks to her side and is like "omfg I was raped" 5. Dude wakes up and is like "lol hello, nice to meet you", him not remembering anything either He had no intention of having sex with this woman prior to his 7th beer. Same with her. But after those final shots, they were slobbering all over each other and totally each digging it prior to banging it out. But she's super broken up about it the next day. She feels ashamed and whatnot. Did the dude do anything wrong? Neither was in a position to consent to anything. Both should have taken a look at the state of the other one and not continued. They both failed to do that and both drunkenly raped the other. Are you sure you didn't just confuse this with your 'everybody is racist, it's not an insult' argument because the words are similar or something? By this definition most people I know of both genders are rapists and many people, of both genders, habitually go out for some mutual rape. You didn't provide enough facts to your example. We don't know the relationship of the man and the woman. if they are a couple, it changes the facts. If they get trashed together and agree that they are going to have sex later, it changes the facts. But without additional facts, Kwark's point stands. As I said before, everyone is so concerned with the amount of booze, rather than the important issue: relationship between the parties involved. One guy went to the club with his buddies. One girl went to the club with her girl friends. They both started pre-gaming at a friends place at 7 pm, then they went to the club around 10. Then they spent a couple hours dancing with strangers, at some point they started looking at each other, started flirting, talked a little bit. At 2 AM, they've both been drinking for 7 hours, people are starting to leave the club, they drunken-stumbly meet up near the entrance and just start making the fuck out. It's really hot and passionate. Guy says I live 5 minutes away wanna come? Girl says 'fuck yes'. They keep making out and grabbing each other while going back to his place. Both of them totally want the other and they end up having sex. The guy mentioned not having a condom, and the girl just went 'I don't fucking care'. Girl wakes up the day after and thinks damn, that was kinda stupid. If there was a rick and morty universe where they decided to define this as 'both of them raping each other', I'd think the show jumped the shark. Each of them decided to fuck a stranger who had been drinking for 7 hours. They're both shit.
And you're really just an incredibly judgmental prude trying to impose your own values on others by calling it a mutual rape.
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Norway28605 Posts
On November 22 2017 09:27 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 09:19 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 22 2017 09:02 Plansix wrote:On November 22 2017 08:58 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 22 2017 08:03 KwarK wrote:On November 22 2017 07:57 Mohdoo wrote:On November 22 2017 07:42 Plansix wrote:
I knew we were going to get to the request for the If/When flow chart to “How to avoid accidently committing sexual assault when booze is involved.”
Really folks, its pretty easy to see this stuff coming and avoid it when having encounters with non-hypothetical women.
I think the common case that is a bit more troublesome is this: 1. Man goes out to get trashed 2. Woman goes out to get trashed 3. These two totally trashed folks happen upon each other some time late at night and end up banging one out 4. Girl wakes up the next day, looks to her side and is like "omfg I was raped" 5. Dude wakes up and is like "lol hello, nice to meet you", him not remembering anything either He had no intention of having sex with this woman prior to his 7th beer. Same with her. But after those final shots, they were slobbering all over each other and totally each digging it prior to banging it out. But she's super broken up about it the next day. She feels ashamed and whatnot. Did the dude do anything wrong? Neither was in a position to consent to anything. Both should have taken a look at the state of the other one and not continued. They both failed to do that and both drunkenly raped the other. Are you sure you didn't just confuse this with your 'everybody is racist, it's not an insult' argument because the words are similar or something? By this definition most people I know of both genders are rapists and many people, of both genders, habitually go out for some mutual rape. You didn't provide enough facts to your example. We don't know the relationship of the man and the woman. if they are a couple, it changes the facts. If they get trashed together and agree that they are going to have sex later, it changes the facts. But without additional facts, Kwark's point stands. As I said before, everyone is so concerned with the amount of booze, rather than the important issue: relationship between the parties involved. One guy went to the club with his buddies. One girl went to the club with her girl friends. They both started pre-gaming at a friends place at 7 pm, then they went to the club around 10. Then they spent a couple hours dancing with strangers, at some point they started looking at each other, started flirting, talked a little bit. At 2 AM, they've both been drinking for 7 hours, people are starting to leave the club, they drunken-stumbly meet up near the entrance and just start making the fuck out. It's really hot and passionate. Guy says I live 5 minutes away wanna come? Girl says 'fuck yes'. They keep making out and grabbing each other while going back to his place. Both of them totally want the other and they end up having sex. The guy mentioned not having a condom, and the girl just went 'I don't fucking care'. Girl wakes up the day after and thinks damn, that was kinda stupid. If there was a rick and morty universe where they decided to define this as 'both of them raping each other', I'd think the show jumped the shark. Each of them decided to fuck a stranger who had been drinking for 7 hours. They're both shit.
Completely fair, but 'shit' is not 'rapist'. And I think you don't understand just how common this very scenario is.
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United States42270 Posts
On November 22 2017 09:25 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 09:14 KwarK wrote:On November 22 2017 08:58 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 22 2017 08:03 KwarK wrote:On November 22 2017 07:57 Mohdoo wrote:On November 22 2017 07:42 Plansix wrote:
I knew we were going to get to the request for the If/When flow chart to “How to avoid accidently committing sexual assault when booze is involved.”
Really folks, its pretty easy to see this stuff coming and avoid it when having encounters with non-hypothetical women.
I think the common case that is a bit more troublesome is this: 1. Man goes out to get trashed 2. Woman goes out to get trashed 3. These two totally trashed folks happen upon each other some time late at night and end up banging one out 4. Girl wakes up the next day, looks to her side and is like "omfg I was raped" 5. Dude wakes up and is like "lol hello, nice to meet you", him not remembering anything either He had no intention of having sex with this woman prior to his 7th beer. Same with her. But after those final shots, they were slobbering all over each other and totally each digging it prior to banging it out. But she's super broken up about it the next day. She feels ashamed and whatnot. Did the dude do anything wrong? Neither was in a position to consent to anything. Both should have taken a look at the state of the other one and not continued. They both failed to do that and both drunkenly raped the other. Are you sure you didn't just confuse this with your 'everybody is racist, it's not an insult' argument because the words are similar or something? By this definition most people I know of both genders are rapists and many people, of both genders, habitually go out for some mutual rape. If we're talking about people who already know each other and would happily have sex with each other sober, they have no reason to suspect the consent to sex is contingent upon the alcohol. Just like if we regularly did business and you bought the standard amount of items from me for the usual price I would have no reason to suspect that the alcohol impacted the contract. That's fine. Is that what we're talking about here? Because I thought we were talking about two strangers who each meet someone completely trashed and decide to fuck them? In that case while each of them is responsible for their own state of inebriation each of them is also responsible for their own failure to not have sex with someone trashed. You pretty much define every single one night stand as rape.
If that's a problem for you maybe don't fuck people who are trashed. Maybe a lot of the time you'll get lucky and fuck someone who would have totally been down for it if they were sober. But the thing is that at the time you have no idea if the person you're about to fuck is going to be cool with it or not. And in that situation, just don't fuck them. If you don't know whether you have actual consent or trashed consent, play it safe.
I'm baffled by how you're struggling with the morality of this. If you think you might be about to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you, don't do it.
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On November 22 2017 09:27 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 09:19 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 22 2017 09:02 Plansix wrote:On November 22 2017 08:58 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 22 2017 08:03 KwarK wrote:On November 22 2017 07:57 Mohdoo wrote:On November 22 2017 07:42 Plansix wrote:
I knew we were going to get to the request for the If/When flow chart to “How to avoid accidently committing sexual assault when booze is involved.”
Really folks, its pretty easy to see this stuff coming and avoid it when having encounters with non-hypothetical women.
I think the common case that is a bit more troublesome is this: 1. Man goes out to get trashed 2. Woman goes out to get trashed 3. These two totally trashed folks happen upon each other some time late at night and end up banging one out 4. Girl wakes up the next day, looks to her side and is like "omfg I was raped" 5. Dude wakes up and is like "lol hello, nice to meet you", him not remembering anything either He had no intention of having sex with this woman prior to his 7th beer. Same with her. But after those final shots, they were slobbering all over each other and totally each digging it prior to banging it out. But she's super broken up about it the next day. She feels ashamed and whatnot. Did the dude do anything wrong? Neither was in a position to consent to anything. Both should have taken a look at the state of the other one and not continued. They both failed to do that and both drunkenly raped the other. Are you sure you didn't just confuse this with your 'everybody is racist, it's not an insult' argument because the words are similar or something? By this definition most people I know of both genders are rapists and many people, of both genders, habitually go out for some mutual rape. You didn't provide enough facts to your example. We don't know the relationship of the man and the woman. if they are a couple, it changes the facts. If they get trashed together and agree that they are going to have sex later, it changes the facts. But without additional facts, Kwark's point stands. As I said before, everyone is so concerned with the amount of booze, rather than the important issue: relationship between the parties involved. One guy went to the club with his buddies. One girl went to the club with her girl friends. They both started pre-gaming at a friends place at 7 pm, then they went to the club around 10. Then they spent a couple hours dancing with strangers, at some point they started looking at each other, started flirting, talked a little bit. At 2 AM, they've both been drinking for 7 hours, people are starting to leave the club, they drunken-stumbly meet up near the entrance and just start making the fuck out. It's really hot and passionate. Guy says I live 5 minutes away wanna come? Girl says 'fuck yes'. They keep making out and grabbing each other while going back to his place. Both of them totally want the other and they end up having sex. The guy mentioned not having a condom, and the girl just went 'I don't fucking care'. Girl wakes up the day after and thinks damn, that was kinda stupid. If there was a rick and morty universe where they decided to define this as 'both of them raping each other', I'd think the show jumped the shark. Each of them decided to fuck a stranger who had been drinking for 7 hours. They're both shit.
Geez, are you always so fucking judgmental?
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United States42270 Posts
On November 22 2017 09:28 a_flayer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 09:27 KwarK wrote:On November 22 2017 09:19 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 22 2017 09:02 Plansix wrote:On November 22 2017 08:58 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 22 2017 08:03 KwarK wrote:On November 22 2017 07:57 Mohdoo wrote:On November 22 2017 07:42 Plansix wrote:
I knew we were going to get to the request for the If/When flow chart to “How to avoid accidently committing sexual assault when booze is involved.”
Really folks, its pretty easy to see this stuff coming and avoid it when having encounters with non-hypothetical women.
I think the common case that is a bit more troublesome is this: 1. Man goes out to get trashed 2. Woman goes out to get trashed 3. These two totally trashed folks happen upon each other some time late at night and end up banging one out 4. Girl wakes up the next day, looks to her side and is like "omfg I was raped" 5. Dude wakes up and is like "lol hello, nice to meet you", him not remembering anything either He had no intention of having sex with this woman prior to his 7th beer. Same with her. But after those final shots, they were slobbering all over each other and totally each digging it prior to banging it out. But she's super broken up about it the next day. She feels ashamed and whatnot. Did the dude do anything wrong? Neither was in a position to consent to anything. Both should have taken a look at the state of the other one and not continued. They both failed to do that and both drunkenly raped the other. Are you sure you didn't just confuse this with your 'everybody is racist, it's not an insult' argument because the words are similar or something? By this definition most people I know of both genders are rapists and many people, of both genders, habitually go out for some mutual rape. You didn't provide enough facts to your example. We don't know the relationship of the man and the woman. if they are a couple, it changes the facts. If they get trashed together and agree that they are going to have sex later, it changes the facts. But without additional facts, Kwark's point stands. As I said before, everyone is so concerned with the amount of booze, rather than the important issue: relationship between the parties involved. One guy went to the club with his buddies. One girl went to the club with her girl friends. They both started pre-gaming at a friends place at 7 pm, then they went to the club around 10. Then they spent a couple hours dancing with strangers, at some point they started looking at each other, started flirting, talked a little bit. At 2 AM, they've both been drinking for 7 hours, people are starting to leave the club, they drunken-stumbly meet up near the entrance and just start making the fuck out. It's really hot and passionate. Guy says I live 5 minutes away wanna come? Girl says 'fuck yes'. They keep making out and grabbing each other while going back to his place. Both of them totally want the other and they end up having sex. The guy mentioned not having a condom, and the girl just went 'I don't fucking care'. Girl wakes up the day after and thinks damn, that was kinda stupid. If there was a rick and morty universe where they decided to define this as 'both of them raping each other', I'd think the show jumped the shark. Each of them decided to fuck a stranger who had been drinking for 7 hours. They're both shit. And you're really just an incredibly judgmental prude.
The less prudish you are, the more important absolutism regarding consent gets.
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Norway28605 Posts
On November 22 2017 09:31 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 09:25 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 22 2017 09:14 KwarK wrote:On November 22 2017 08:58 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 22 2017 08:03 KwarK wrote:On November 22 2017 07:57 Mohdoo wrote:On November 22 2017 07:42 Plansix wrote:
I knew we were going to get to the request for the If/When flow chart to “How to avoid accidently committing sexual assault when booze is involved.”
Really folks, its pretty easy to see this stuff coming and avoid it when having encounters with non-hypothetical women.
I think the common case that is a bit more troublesome is this: 1. Man goes out to get trashed 2. Woman goes out to get trashed 3. These two totally trashed folks happen upon each other some time late at night and end up banging one out 4. Girl wakes up the next day, looks to her side and is like "omfg I was raped" 5. Dude wakes up and is like "lol hello, nice to meet you", him not remembering anything either He had no intention of having sex with this woman prior to his 7th beer. Same with her. But after those final shots, they were slobbering all over each other and totally each digging it prior to banging it out. But she's super broken up about it the next day. She feels ashamed and whatnot. Did the dude do anything wrong? Neither was in a position to consent to anything. Both should have taken a look at the state of the other one and not continued. They both failed to do that and both drunkenly raped the other. Are you sure you didn't just confuse this with your 'everybody is racist, it's not an insult' argument because the words are similar or something? By this definition most people I know of both genders are rapists and many people, of both genders, habitually go out for some mutual rape. If we're talking about people who already know each other and would happily have sex with each other sober, they have no reason to suspect the consent to sex is contingent upon the alcohol. Just like if we regularly did business and you bought the standard amount of items from me for the usual price I would have no reason to suspect that the alcohol impacted the contract. That's fine. Is that what we're talking about here? Because I thought we were talking about two strangers who each meet someone completely trashed and decide to fuck them? In that case while each of them is responsible for their own state of inebriation each of them is also responsible for their own failure to not have sex with someone trashed. You pretty much define every single one night stand as rape. If that's a problem for you maybe don't fuck people who are trashed. Maybe a lot of the time you'll get lucky and fuck someone who would have totally been down for it if they were sober. But the thing is that at the time you have no idea if the person you're about to fuck is going to be cool with it or not. And in that situation, just don't fuck them. If you don't know whether you have actual consent or trashed consent, play it safe. I'm baffled by how you're struggling with the morality of this. If you think you might be about to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you, don't do it.
I'm similarly baffled by your complete lack of human or reading comprehension. Nobody is arguing that it's right to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with them. We're all saying that nobody thinks 'this girl doesn't actually want to have sex with me, she's only doing it because she's drunk'.
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On November 22 2017 09:31 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 09:25 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 22 2017 09:14 KwarK wrote:On November 22 2017 08:58 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 22 2017 08:03 KwarK wrote:On November 22 2017 07:57 Mohdoo wrote:On November 22 2017 07:42 Plansix wrote:
I knew we were going to get to the request for the If/When flow chart to “How to avoid accidently committing sexual assault when booze is involved.”
Really folks, its pretty easy to see this stuff coming and avoid it when having encounters with non-hypothetical women.
I think the common case that is a bit more troublesome is this: 1. Man goes out to get trashed 2. Woman goes out to get trashed 3. These two totally trashed folks happen upon each other some time late at night and end up banging one out 4. Girl wakes up the next day, looks to her side and is like "omfg I was raped" 5. Dude wakes up and is like "lol hello, nice to meet you", him not remembering anything either He had no intention of having sex with this woman prior to his 7th beer. Same with her. But after those final shots, they were slobbering all over each other and totally each digging it prior to banging it out. But she's super broken up about it the next day. She feels ashamed and whatnot. Did the dude do anything wrong? Neither was in a position to consent to anything. Both should have taken a look at the state of the other one and not continued. They both failed to do that and both drunkenly raped the other. Are you sure you didn't just confuse this with your 'everybody is racist, it's not an insult' argument because the words are similar or something? By this definition most people I know of both genders are rapists and many people, of both genders, habitually go out for some mutual rape. If we're talking about people who already know each other and would happily have sex with each other sober, they have no reason to suspect the consent to sex is contingent upon the alcohol. Just like if we regularly did business and you bought the standard amount of items from me for the usual price I would have no reason to suspect that the alcohol impacted the contract. That's fine. Is that what we're talking about here? Because I thought we were talking about two strangers who each meet someone completely trashed and decide to fuck them? In that case while each of them is responsible for their own state of inebriation each of them is also responsible for their own failure to not have sex with someone trashed. You pretty much define every single one night stand as rape. If that's a problem for you maybe don't fuck people who are trashed. Maybe a lot of the time you'll get lucky and fuck someone who would have totally been down for it if they were sober. But the thing is that at the time you have no idea if the person you're about to fuck is going to be cool with it or not. And in that situation, just don't fuck them. If you don't know whether you have actual consent or trashed consent, play it safe. I'm baffled by how you're struggling with the morality of this. If you think you might be about to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you, don't do it.
I think everyone is baffled by your struggle to understand that life doesn’t work like that, that you have no way of knowing what exactly someone will feel the next day and that there is always a chance, even when one is not drunk that the circumstances only made it happen and that the girl will hate herself the next day for it.
Your scenario works fine in certain case, and is totally off 99% of the time. And then you go on judging people, telling Drone his morals are fucked and that anyone having a one night stand with someone they met in a party is shit.
Just get real.
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On November 22 2017 09:25 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 09:21 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm a softy so I always want people to be helped rather than just shamed and caged so I view most of these cases through a lens of addiction and think it should be treated as such.
I take all this seriously and think this is still just the tip of the iceberg, but I'm wondering if this whole I can't legally consent when I'm drunk thing works for bar tabs? Contextually yes. Let's say the bartender got out the most expensive oldest whisky he had and offered you some. You agreed and drank some. That could be voidable.
Why just the expensive stuff? Couldn't I ask for it (cheap or expensive), but still not be consenting because I'm drunk?
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On November 22 2017 09:35 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 09:31 KwarK wrote:On November 22 2017 09:25 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 22 2017 09:14 KwarK wrote:On November 22 2017 08:58 Liquid`Drone wrote:On November 22 2017 08:03 KwarK wrote:On November 22 2017 07:57 Mohdoo wrote:On November 22 2017 07:42 Plansix wrote:
I knew we were going to get to the request for the If/When flow chart to “How to avoid accidently committing sexual assault when booze is involved.”
Really folks, its pretty easy to see this stuff coming and avoid it when having encounters with non-hypothetical women.
I think the common case that is a bit more troublesome is this: 1. Man goes out to get trashed 2. Woman goes out to get trashed 3. These two totally trashed folks happen upon each other some time late at night and end up banging one out 4. Girl wakes up the next day, looks to her side and is like "omfg I was raped" 5. Dude wakes up and is like "lol hello, nice to meet you", him not remembering anything either He had no intention of having sex with this woman prior to his 7th beer. Same with her. But after those final shots, they were slobbering all over each other and totally each digging it prior to banging it out. But she's super broken up about it the next day. She feels ashamed and whatnot. Did the dude do anything wrong? Neither was in a position to consent to anything. Both should have taken a look at the state of the other one and not continued. They both failed to do that and both drunkenly raped the other. Are you sure you didn't just confuse this with your 'everybody is racist, it's not an insult' argument because the words are similar or something? By this definition most people I know of both genders are rapists and many people, of both genders, habitually go out for some mutual rape. If we're talking about people who already know each other and would happily have sex with each other sober, they have no reason to suspect the consent to sex is contingent upon the alcohol. Just like if we regularly did business and you bought the standard amount of items from me for the usual price I would have no reason to suspect that the alcohol impacted the contract. That's fine. Is that what we're talking about here? Because I thought we were talking about two strangers who each meet someone completely trashed and decide to fuck them? In that case while each of them is responsible for their own state of inebriation each of them is also responsible for their own failure to not have sex with someone trashed. You pretty much define every single one night stand as rape. If that's a problem for you maybe don't fuck people who are trashed. Maybe a lot of the time you'll get lucky and fuck someone who would have totally been down for it if they were sober. But the thing is that at the time you have no idea if the person you're about to fuck is going to be cool with it or not. And in that situation, just don't fuck them. If you don't know whether you have actual consent or trashed consent, play it safe. I'm baffled by how you're struggling with the morality of this. If you think you might be about to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you, don't do it. We're all saying that nobody thinks 'this girl doesn't actually want to have sex with me, she's only doing it because she's drunk'.
Maybe we should
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It's impossible because you yourself are mentally impaired during the process of the courting process (which in terms of being drunk is quite straight forward and banal). It's like people don't understand that thinking in itself is difficult when you're drunk. What the fuck.
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EPT
