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On September 27 2017 03:40 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2017 03:38 xDaunt wrote:On September 27 2017 03:33 Wulfey_LA wrote:On September 27 2017 03:20 xDaunt wrote:On September 27 2017 03:11 Wulfey_LA wrote:On September 27 2017 02:49 Plansix wrote:Of course that slid under everyone's radara, that he talked with a vet about the most respectful way to protest. That he was thoughtful and understood the gravity of what he wanted to do. I might send that to my brother. Or maybe have my mother do it. Eric Reid (Colin's kneeling teammate) also had some great remarks that should tag along with those ones. He does a great job cutting through the Republican partisan spin on this issue. I approached Colin the Saturday before our next game to discuss how I could get involved with the cause but also how we could make a more powerful and positive impact on the social justice movement. We spoke at length about many of the issues that face our community, including systemic oppression against people of color, police brutality and the criminal justice system. We also discussed how we could use our platform, provided to us by being professional athletes in the N.F.L., to speak for those who are voiceless.
After hours of careful consideration, and even a visit from Nate Boyer, a retired Green Beret and former N.F.L. player, we came to the conclusion that we should kneel, rather than sit, the next day during the anthem as a peaceful protest. We chose to kneel because it’s a respectful gesture. I remember thinking our posture was like a flag flown at half-mast to mark a tragedy. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/opinion/colin-kaepernick-football-protests.html?smid=fb-share Except the issue isn't the kneeling or even the sitting. It's the message behind those actions. Yeah, it is the message behind the actions that matter. But the official republican spin is that this is about the <flag/actions/disrespect>, not about protesting the disparate impact of <Officer Use of Force incidents>. Trump/Republicans/Newt/Hannity/FOX are sticking to <flag/actions/disrespect> spin because that is a much easier ground upon which to spin up some white grievance. Talking about <Officer Use of Force incidents> and how they come down heavier and bloodier on people of darker complexion is a hard issue that Republicans would rather pretend doesn't exist. I am surprised that you are accepting the premises of the Lib side here. I don't think that there are meaningful grounds to distinguish between the message and the action. The bottom line is that Kaepernick is intentionally condemning and showing disrespect for the country. That's not going to rub people the right way. In your eyes, is there to say what he is saying in a respectful way?
Write his congressman/woman and wait for them to take the matter up. Until then, sit quietly, play the sport you're paid to, and don't rock the boat. Be grateful for the opportunity.
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If I saw someone burn the American flag, I’d just tell them “Then why are you still here? Go live somewhere else if you hate this country so much.”
I really can’t hold the same sentiment towards the NFL players who knelt or locked arms during the national anthem. I don’t think they’re disrespecting the flag, the country, or the military per say. I believe they do love America and many of them have family members in the military or support our service members. Plus they’re making a living/millions off of playing a sport in the only country that gives a shit about it, so they really can’t hate America that much.
Then what are they doing this for? To protest other things (whether it’s the police or our potus making dumb remarks as usual). As said before, they all do love America but believe that this country can be better than what it is now, hence the protests. It was never really about hating the country or disrespecting the military, but Trump had to make it so. And people bought it.
Even if people were outright disrespecting the military, I doubt the Soldiers themselves would care very much since 1. They’re used to it, and 2. They know that’s what their country stands for and that everybody can give their shitty opinion on everything, thanks in part to the military protecting this country in the first place.
And what’s with the turnaround attitude towards our service members? It felt like it was only yesterday that civilians were always talking shit about those who served and died, with comments like “They’re too dumb to do anything else that’s why they’re in the military, deserved” and “They’re not protecting my freedom lol, they’re just invading other countries for oil.” And you have drill sergeants telling their recruits in basic training “American civilians will always talk down about the military, but just remember they have that right because of you.” Suddenly we got everybody treating our service members with respect now. Feels like some are just using this excuse to further their own agenda.
I respect the military. They take part in humanitarian and disaster relief missions, and they will be the first ones to defend/help us civilians should the need ever arises, and they won’t hesitate to do so. I believe the NFL players share the same sentiments, but also that they’re not wrong for kneeling during anthem in protest of other things that have nothing to do with the military in the first place. But some people will always make that connection and see it as an affront, whether genuine or as a tactic to divide. Each to his own.
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On September 27 2017 03:22 brian wrote:
weird. because we’ve been hearing about the disrespect to the flag for twenty pages.
This entire discussion is quite comical. People are more important than symbols, George Carlin's famous quote:
![[image loading]](http://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-i-don-t-get-all-choked-up-about-yellow-ribbons-and-american-flags-i-consider-them-to-george-carlin-80-89-06.jpg)
Is my mantra, when it comes to stuff like that.
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Isn't the point of protest to be inconvenient and uncomfortable? I would say that certain black celebrities (athletes or otherwise) are uniquely positioned to protest the state of affairs in the U.S. because they are nationally recognized and there is very little chance that they are punished for their actions.
As we saw over the weekend, the NFL is a slave to cash, and it took Trump threatening them directly for them to find their "unity." While individual owners may have been able to blackball Kaepernick on the questionable grounds of his on-field play, they can't ostracize all of these players as well.
Ironically enough, for all their "snowflake" and "safe-space" talk, there is no easier way to trigger a conservative than to disrespect the flag or national anthem. But respect is earned, is it not? And if your belief is that this country's law enforcement officials disproportionately target and murder people of color, why would you respect it?
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On September 26 2017 08:15 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 08:03 kollin wrote:On September 26 2017 07:58 xDaunt wrote:On September 26 2017 07:56 kollin wrote:On September 26 2017 07:54 xDaunt wrote:On September 26 2017 07:49 kollin wrote:On September 26 2017 07:47 Sermokala wrote:On September 26 2017 07:46 kollin wrote:On September 26 2017 07:42 xDaunt wrote:
And where's the MLK quote where he says that the path to get good people to stop being silent is to defame them? Maybe right wing white people should be less fragile? I'm perfectly willing to admit that there are things I do which help propagate structural, systemic racism against black people, because that's what structural racism. I am a racist in that respect. I don't think that makes me a bad person so maybe people on the right need to stop being such snowflakes. So your argument is that because something doesn't offend you or make you feel bad then other people wouldn't be offended or feel bad when they are told they are the same thing? My argument is their offence, at the end of the day, doesn't really mean anything to anyone. Why should I care if they're offended? What matters is whether or not there is structural racism, and what they can do to help reduce it. Crying over terms is just another way to take the focus of what matters, which actually just lends credence to the idea that they are, in fact, racist. Damn, with thoughts like these, you're ready to teach a master class on negotiation. Lesson 1: How to call someone a cunt and still close the deal. Not really analogous, given that I'm not trying to close a deal or negotiate anything. Oh, it absolutely is a negotiation. Y'all aren't calling us racists for shits and giggles. Y'all want justice! Y'all want change! Y'all need racist whitey to help you pass legislation! That looks like a negotiation to me. I'm not arguing for change or legislation or anything at all. You can pretend that I am in order to try and change the ground on which I'm making my point, but it doesn't change the facts that structural racism is both directly and indirectly, intentionally and unintentionally propagated by a vast amount of white people. That makes them racist. Like I said, if 'the Right' can't muster any arguments against this, but still remain too precious to accept their reality then that reflects much more badly on them. I've seen mentioned in this thread that recognizing it exists and not wanting to do anything about it is worse than the other position. H ow do you defend yourself from someone that thinks you're a terrible human being for not wanting to change anything about racist structures at all?
Not at all because there's nothing worth defending?
On September 26 2017 09:00 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 08:56 Plansix wrote:On September 26 2017 08:53 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 26 2017 08:49 Plansix wrote:On September 26 2017 08:43 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 26 2017 08:38 Plansix wrote:On September 26 2017 08:32 Falling wrote:On September 26 2017 08:25 kollin wrote:On September 26 2017 08:17 Sermokala wrote:On September 26 2017 08:04 kollin wrote:
[quote]
Its shitty but what's MORE shitty is racism and racial oppression. Given the two shitty situations, the one that doesn't involve racism seems the preferable one. What Danglers xdaunt and me have been trying to reach you with is that calling everyone racists isn't going to get anyone anywhere. You need to change the opinions of the Racist enablers in the country in order to get them to stop enabling racism in its structural forms. Thats how change always has happened. The civil rights era didn't succeed because white people got tired of being called racist it succeeded because it divided the most racist parts of the country and the less racist parts of the country. Thats its wrong and just bad in any other situation should show you how bad and wrong it is in this one. On September 26 2017 08:04 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]
I don't believe I have called 48% (or whatever) of Americans racist. I've called them stupid tho. And they deserve that for voting for Trump.
I have remarked on how many Republicans are racists or racist enablers based on Trump approval rating among Republicans in recent months.
[quote]
Don't worry, this thread gave up long long ago on trying to convince you or danglers.
You get wrapped up in identify games where you call the GOP racists then half the country stupid when it ends up you're just calling half the country racist and stupid. I don't know if this is a separation between our two countries but just being apart of a party in america doesn't mean you share all or even most of the parties values, just more then you would the other party. I'm not making an argument for the sake of political expediency, I'm making an argument that is true. Danglers and xDaunt seem much more upset about the prospect that they may be racist than the prospect racism still exists. It is not wrong and bad to call people who propagate racism racists. I don't really understand your substituting racism with poverty still. I suspect they may be more upset that charges of racism are overly broad so as to include not-racists within the category of racists. Racism still exists, but it does matter if we've actually identified the right people for the right reasons. Again a truth statement beyond political expediency. Why does it matter that we identity the right people as racist? Racism can be purely accidental. Because if you don't care about whether you are being accurate you might as well not say anything at all because the words become meaningless. So the accuracy is more important than the potential racism? Is there some reason we have to be inaccurate to be able to start solving racism? It seems to be the number one concern of some people in the thread. The racism is bad, but first we need to make sure that non-racists are not blamed for the racism. It is the number one topic every single time racism is discussed in this thread. There's a reason for that. I know some in here can't come round to this, but I genuinely think the way racism is being talked about is wrong. Its stupid and wrong, because in addition to failing to solve the problem - and if anything exacerbates it - it is linguistically and logically incorrect in quite a fundamental way (see falling's comment above - he explains this well). There is absolutely no reason, as I've said twice now to no response, not to word things in a more correct way if it is more productive. Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 08:56 Plansix wrote:
Also, "not being racist" isn't that impressive. That is the base line for not being terrible. Perfect. You have completely proven the point that both falling and I have been making. Onthe one hand, we all do racist things, and we are all racists. On the other hand, not being racist is the base line for not being terrible. Ergo, we are all terrible. I'm sure you wouldn't agree with this.Here, it isn't the language that is the problem, its the failure to grasp the basic meanings of the way you are using the words. Simple logical connections have gone out of the window. This is pretty exasperating to be honest. Despite all this, I am fully with you on America's need to get a grip on its rampant institutional and systemic racism. It'll be a long process. I would suggest starting by avoiding the logical assumption that everyone is terrible.
This is hardly the point, I think. saying someone is (acting in a) racist (manner) doesn't equate to beating his kids or similar things that would go hand in hand with being a terrible human being. It says they're terrible in a sense that they do not treat PoCs with equal respect, ettiquette, yadda yadda as a white/chinese/arabic/whathaveyou person.
Profoundly refusing to discuss and/or accept the matter whilst deflecting how racism is a non issue or even the PoCs' fault might lead to the conclusion that the person might, in fact, be a terrible enough racist to be tainted sufficiently to be terrible overall.
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On September 27 2017 04:05 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 08:15 Danglars wrote:On September 26 2017 08:03 kollin wrote:On September 26 2017 07:58 xDaunt wrote:On September 26 2017 07:56 kollin wrote:On September 26 2017 07:54 xDaunt wrote:On September 26 2017 07:49 kollin wrote:On September 26 2017 07:47 Sermokala wrote:On September 26 2017 07:46 kollin wrote:On September 26 2017 07:42 xDaunt wrote:
And where's the MLK quote where he says that the path to get good people to stop being silent is to defame them? Maybe right wing white people should be less fragile? I'm perfectly willing to admit that there are things I do which help propagate structural, systemic racism against black people, because that's what structural racism. I am a racist in that respect. I don't think that makes me a bad person so maybe people on the right need to stop being such snowflakes. So your argument is that because something doesn't offend you or make you feel bad then other people wouldn't be offended or feel bad when they are told they are the same thing? My argument is their offence, at the end of the day, doesn't really mean anything to anyone. Why should I care if they're offended? What matters is whether or not there is structural racism, and what they can do to help reduce it. Crying over terms is just another way to take the focus of what matters, which actually just lends credence to the idea that they are, in fact, racist. Damn, with thoughts like these, you're ready to teach a master class on negotiation. Lesson 1: How to call someone a cunt and still close the deal. Not really analogous, given that I'm not trying to close a deal or negotiate anything. Oh, it absolutely is a negotiation. Y'all aren't calling us racists for shits and giggles. Y'all want justice! Y'all want change! Y'all need racist whitey to help you pass legislation! That looks like a negotiation to me. I'm not arguing for change or legislation or anything at all. You can pretend that I am in order to try and change the ground on which I'm making my point, but it doesn't change the facts that structural racism is both directly and indirectly, intentionally and unintentionally propagated by a vast amount of white people. That makes them racist. Like I said, if 'the Right' can't muster any arguments against this, but still remain too precious to accept their reality then that reflects much more badly on them. I've seen mentioned in this thread that recognizing it exists and not wanting to do anything about it is worse than the other position. H ow do you defend yourself from someone that thinks you're a terrible human being for not wanting to change anything about racist structures at all? Not at all because there's nothing worth defending?
There's this bizarre notion that when someone calls something, or someone, racist, it's because they actually did something racist. The conservatives here have been arguing to the contrary, but their arguments are all staged on the idea that racism is a non-issue, and therefore saying anything is racist is a pejorative overuse of the term. There is no room left for degrees of nuance in their presentation of the argument, therefore they must be correct.
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On September 27 2017 04:03 ZasZ. wrote:
As we saw over the weekend, the NFL is a slave to cash, and it took Trump threatening them directly for them to find their "unity." While individual owners may have been able to blackball Kaepernick on the questionable grounds of his on-field play, they can't ostracize all of these players as well.
the thing that really fucked Kaepernick was not taking the knee during the anthem. it was the "pig socks", the "Ravens owner is a slave owner" themed tweets and a few other things. if he conducted himself in a politically correct manner like say Justin Trudeau.. and he also took a knee and became a real leader of a movement he'd be on an NFL team right now watching from the sidelines in the back up position he deserves. Basically, he should've done what Tim Thomas did when he refused to visit the Prez and Kaep would be just fine.
EDIT: after wearing the "pig socks" rather than backing down and admitting anything he did the equivalent of ur typical 14 year old with "that was what i said but that's not what i meant so fuck you". that was bad too.
The vibe i get is.. Kaep wants to be blackballed and he is enjoying his martyrdom. If he really wanted to play football he'd be a Toronto Argonaut or a Montreal Allouette right now.
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On September 27 2017 03:48 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2017 03:40 Mohdoo wrote:On September 27 2017 03:38 xDaunt wrote:On September 27 2017 03:33 Wulfey_LA wrote:On September 27 2017 03:20 xDaunt wrote:On September 27 2017 03:11 Wulfey_LA wrote:On September 27 2017 02:49 Plansix wrote:Of course that slid under everyone's radara, that he talked with a vet about the most respectful way to protest. That he was thoughtful and understood the gravity of what he wanted to do. I might send that to my brother. Or maybe have my mother do it. Eric Reid (Colin's kneeling teammate) also had some great remarks that should tag along with those ones. He does a great job cutting through the Republican partisan spin on this issue. I approached Colin the Saturday before our next game to discuss how I could get involved with the cause but also how we could make a more powerful and positive impact on the social justice movement. We spoke at length about many of the issues that face our community, including systemic oppression against people of color, police brutality and the criminal justice system. We also discussed how we could use our platform, provided to us by being professional athletes in the N.F.L., to speak for those who are voiceless.
After hours of careful consideration, and even a visit from Nate Boyer, a retired Green Beret and former N.F.L. player, we came to the conclusion that we should kneel, rather than sit, the next day during the anthem as a peaceful protest. We chose to kneel because it’s a respectful gesture. I remember thinking our posture was like a flag flown at half-mast to mark a tragedy. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/opinion/colin-kaepernick-football-protests.html?smid=fb-share Except the issue isn't the kneeling or even the sitting. It's the message behind those actions. Yeah, it is the message behind the actions that matter. But the official republican spin is that this is about the <flag/actions/disrespect>, not about protesting the disparate impact of <Officer Use of Force incidents>. Trump/Republicans/Newt/Hannity/FOX are sticking to <flag/actions/disrespect> spin because that is a much easier ground upon which to spin up some white grievance. Talking about <Officer Use of Force incidents> and how they come down heavier and bloodier on people of darker complexion is a hard issue that Republicans would rather pretend doesn't exist. I am surprised that you are accepting the premises of the Lib side here. I don't think that there are meaningful grounds to distinguish between the message and the action. The bottom line is that Kaepernick is intentionally condemning and showing disrespect for the country. That's not going to rub people the right way. In your eyes, is there to say what he is saying in a respectful way? Write his congressman/woman and wait for them to take the matter up. Until then, sit quietly, play the sport you're paid to, and don't rock the boat. Be grateful for the opportunity.
Their contracts say nothing about being required to stand for the National Anthem. They don't have to do that, nor are they paid for it. "Don't rock the boat" is not an appropriate response to people speaking out against injustice and inequality.
I totally support the peaceful and respectful kneeling of the players, and I hope that support continues to build up for these brave athletes by their teams and fans.
This isn't about disrespecting the anthem.
This isn't about disrespecting the flag.
This isn't about disrespecting the military.
This isn't about disrespecting the country.
This is about calling attention to a very serious, systemic injustice in our country: Many Americans are not safe and are not being treated fairly in the United States. They're being verbally marginalized and physically attacked - even killed - just because they're black. They are men, women, and children. They are Americans. And they're viewed as inferior and their concerns aren't taken seriously in this country because they're only a minority.
Peaceful marches, loud speeches, large protests, and even violent riots have spread some awareness but are often met with evasive responses like "Well *this* isn't the *right way* to voice your concerns."
What *is* the *right way* to spread the word that Americans aren't being protected by the Constitution and the criminal justice system? What's the best way to enlighten the public that our neighbors and friends are being disenfranchised, despite the fact that millions of Americans have fought and died for our promised freedoms?
The purpose of the kneeling is to highlight concerns regarding civil rights, and so the conversation should be about that. Dismissing it as an unworthy cause simply because they won't stand for the National Anthem- a song, mind you, that the vast majority of Americans don't stand for when they watch sports at home, and nearly no one knows all four verses of- is missing the point. "The land of the free" currently does not apply to all Americans, and hopefully anyone who stands up (or kneels or sits) for civil rights should be viewed as "brave", and they should have a "home" here.
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On September 27 2017 03:48 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2017 03:40 Mohdoo wrote:On September 27 2017 03:38 xDaunt wrote:On September 27 2017 03:33 Wulfey_LA wrote:On September 27 2017 03:20 xDaunt wrote:On September 27 2017 03:11 Wulfey_LA wrote:On September 27 2017 02:49 Plansix wrote:Of course that slid under everyone's radara, that he talked with a vet about the most respectful way to protest. That he was thoughtful and understood the gravity of what he wanted to do. I might send that to my brother. Or maybe have my mother do it. Eric Reid (Colin's kneeling teammate) also had some great remarks that should tag along with those ones. He does a great job cutting through the Republican partisan spin on this issue. I approached Colin the Saturday before our next game to discuss how I could get involved with the cause but also how we could make a more powerful and positive impact on the social justice movement. We spoke at length about many of the issues that face our community, including systemic oppression against people of color, police brutality and the criminal justice system. We also discussed how we could use our platform, provided to us by being professional athletes in the N.F.L., to speak for those who are voiceless.
After hours of careful consideration, and even a visit from Nate Boyer, a retired Green Beret and former N.F.L. player, we came to the conclusion that we should kneel, rather than sit, the next day during the anthem as a peaceful protest. We chose to kneel because it’s a respectful gesture. I remember thinking our posture was like a flag flown at half-mast to mark a tragedy. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/opinion/colin-kaepernick-football-protests.html?smid=fb-share Except the issue isn't the kneeling or even the sitting. It's the message behind those actions. Yeah, it is the message behind the actions that matter. But the official republican spin is that this is about the <flag/actions/disrespect>, not about protesting the disparate impact of <Officer Use of Force incidents>. Trump/Republicans/Newt/Hannity/FOX are sticking to <flag/actions/disrespect> spin because that is a much easier ground upon which to spin up some white grievance. Talking about <Officer Use of Force incidents> and how they come down heavier and bloodier on people of darker complexion is a hard issue that Republicans would rather pretend doesn't exist. I am surprised that you are accepting the premises of the Lib side here. I don't think that there are meaningful grounds to distinguish between the message and the action. The bottom line is that Kaepernick is intentionally condemning and showing disrespect for the country. That's not going to rub people the right way. In your eyes, is there to say what he is saying in a respectful way? There are a couple layers to peel here. First, using the national anthem to protest the country in any way is a bad idea for the reasons that Donald Trump showed this weekend (like I discussed yesterday). It's too easy to have your cause turned (fairly or not) into a referendum on your patriotism (regardless of the justness of your cause). Second, and like all of the conservative posters have been saying til they have been blue in the face, framing the issue in terms of the country being racist is only going to piss people off and turn them against you. The better way to approach the issue is to frame it as a race neutral issue along the lines of "Police brutality is a problem in this country" or "Inner city families are broken and need help." Amazing things will happen when you stop calling whitey racist.
So you are saying that blacks framing these issues as black issues rather than "everyone issues", they lose support from whites?
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In many religions and cultures, kneeling before a deity or king (or anyone, for that matter) is literally the most respectful, deferential, submissive, and humble position you can take, so let's not pretend that kneeling for a song or flag or some other symbol is inherently irreverent... especially when the purpose of said kneeling is to promote civil rights. It's mind-boggling that people could see someone kneeling out of respect for a symbol of freedom- to support freedom- and think to themselves, "That's totally inappropriate."
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On September 27 2017 04:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
In many religions and cultures, kneeling before a deity or king (or anyone, for that matter) is literally the most respectful, deferential, submissive, and humble position you can take, so let's not pretend that kneeling for a song or flag or some other symbol is inherently irreverent... especially when the purpose of said kneeling is to promote civil rights. It's mind-boggling that people could see someone kneeling out of respect for a symbol of freedom- to support freedom- and think to themselves, "That's totally inappropriate."
according to the latest survey 43.438274% of people are "waiting to be offended"... so you get people offended by anything and everything.
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Yea kneeling is harder than just standing with a hand over your heart. On hard ground it fucks up my knee real bad if I'm not wearing kneepads.
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On September 27 2017 04:33 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2017 04:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
In many religions and cultures, kneeling before a deity or king (or anyone, for that matter) is literally the most respectful, deferential, submissive, and humble position you can take, so let's not pretend that kneeling for a song or flag or some other symbol is inherently irreverent... especially when the purpose of said kneeling is to promote civil rights. It's mind-boggling that people could see someone kneeling out of respect for a symbol of freedom- to support freedom- and think to themselves, "That's totally inappropriate." according to the latest survey 43.438274% of people are "waiting to be offended"... so you get people offended by anything and everything.
Made up statistics! <triggered>
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On September 27 2017 04:21 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2017 03:48 xDaunt wrote:On September 27 2017 03:40 Mohdoo wrote:On September 27 2017 03:38 xDaunt wrote:On September 27 2017 03:33 Wulfey_LA wrote:On September 27 2017 03:20 xDaunt wrote:On September 27 2017 03:11 Wulfey_LA wrote:On September 27 2017 02:49 Plansix wrote:Of course that slid under everyone's radara, that he talked with a vet about the most respectful way to protest. That he was thoughtful and understood the gravity of what he wanted to do. I might send that to my brother. Or maybe have my mother do it. Eric Reid (Colin's kneeling teammate) also had some great remarks that should tag along with those ones. He does a great job cutting through the Republican partisan spin on this issue. I approached Colin the Saturday before our next game to discuss how I could get involved with the cause but also how we could make a more powerful and positive impact on the social justice movement. We spoke at length about many of the issues that face our community, including systemic oppression against people of color, police brutality and the criminal justice system. We also discussed how we could use our platform, provided to us by being professional athletes in the N.F.L., to speak for those who are voiceless.
After hours of careful consideration, and even a visit from Nate Boyer, a retired Green Beret and former N.F.L. player, we came to the conclusion that we should kneel, rather than sit, the next day during the anthem as a peaceful protest. We chose to kneel because it’s a respectful gesture. I remember thinking our posture was like a flag flown at half-mast to mark a tragedy. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/opinion/colin-kaepernick-football-protests.html?smid=fb-share Except the issue isn't the kneeling or even the sitting. It's the message behind those actions. Yeah, it is the message behind the actions that matter. But the official republican spin is that this is about the <flag/actions/disrespect>, not about protesting the disparate impact of <Officer Use of Force incidents>. Trump/Republicans/Newt/Hannity/FOX are sticking to <flag/actions/disrespect> spin because that is a much easier ground upon which to spin up some white grievance. Talking about <Officer Use of Force incidents> and how they come down heavier and bloodier on people of darker complexion is a hard issue that Republicans would rather pretend doesn't exist. I am surprised that you are accepting the premises of the Lib side here. I don't think that there are meaningful grounds to distinguish between the message and the action. The bottom line is that Kaepernick is intentionally condemning and showing disrespect for the country. That's not going to rub people the right way. In your eyes, is there to say what he is saying in a respectful way? There are a couple layers to peel here. First, using the national anthem to protest the country in any way is a bad idea for the reasons that Donald Trump showed this weekend (like I discussed yesterday). It's too easy to have your cause turned (fairly or not) into a referendum on your patriotism (regardless of the justness of your cause). Second, and like all of the conservative posters have been saying til they have been blue in the face, framing the issue in terms of the country being racist is only going to piss people off and turn them against you. The better way to approach the issue is to frame it as a race neutral issue along the lines of "Police brutality is a problem in this country" or "Inner city families are broken and need help." Amazing things will happen when you stop calling whitey racist. So you are saying that blacks framing these issues as black issues rather than "everyone issues", they lose support from whites?
This is in reply to xD, using your post.
Whites weren't going to do anything about it. Hispanics were only worried about deportation. Blacks had to be the voice to bring some of these issues up. Only when they did, did we see more PoC, including whites, speaking out on police brutality and racial inequality. Taking race out of it doesn't drive home the fact of what is really going on. It's hiding the true issue at hand behind a fog. By bringing race into this, more people are inclined to speak up in support for the cause. The civil rights movement was about blacks and that got a lot of people on board to get laws enacted that serves everyone equally (or it should). Why is now different? Take the black man's plight in America and use it to forward change for all. The LGBT community is doing it (sometimes wrongly) and they are getting their rights increased slowly but surely.
People bring in race because it's an effective means to get things heard and things done. Because you are uncomfortable with it, is not my nor anyone else's problems. It is your own.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Advocating for civil rights is good. Trying to frame the opposition/moderation in terms of racial identity politics and encouraging the most scummy amongst your own rank to do their stuff just might not get you the results you want. A discomfort fetish is just a great way to be an annoying twat.
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It's the old as long as it's not in my backyard I'm fine with it mentality and whoever dares to speak up is guilty of disturbing the peace.
People wanna keep pretending everything's just daaaandyyy! "So shut up and let me enjoy the game! Your problems are not mine! F*** off!"
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On September 27 2017 04:21 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2017 03:48 xDaunt wrote:On September 27 2017 03:40 Mohdoo wrote:On September 27 2017 03:38 xDaunt wrote:On September 27 2017 03:33 Wulfey_LA wrote:On September 27 2017 03:20 xDaunt wrote:On September 27 2017 03:11 Wulfey_LA wrote:On September 27 2017 02:49 Plansix wrote:Of course that slid under everyone's radara, that he talked with a vet about the most respectful way to protest. That he was thoughtful and understood the gravity of what he wanted to do. I might send that to my brother. Or maybe have my mother do it. Eric Reid (Colin's kneeling teammate) also had some great remarks that should tag along with those ones. He does a great job cutting through the Republican partisan spin on this issue. I approached Colin the Saturday before our next game to discuss how I could get involved with the cause but also how we could make a more powerful and positive impact on the social justice movement. We spoke at length about many of the issues that face our community, including systemic oppression against people of color, police brutality and the criminal justice system. We also discussed how we could use our platform, provided to us by being professional athletes in the N.F.L., to speak for those who are voiceless.
After hours of careful consideration, and even a visit from Nate Boyer, a retired Green Beret and former N.F.L. player, we came to the conclusion that we should kneel, rather than sit, the next day during the anthem as a peaceful protest. We chose to kneel because it’s a respectful gesture. I remember thinking our posture was like a flag flown at half-mast to mark a tragedy. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/opinion/colin-kaepernick-football-protests.html?smid=fb-share Except the issue isn't the kneeling or even the sitting. It's the message behind those actions. Yeah, it is the message behind the actions that matter. But the official republican spin is that this is about the <flag/actions/disrespect>, not about protesting the disparate impact of <Officer Use of Force incidents>. Trump/Republicans/Newt/Hannity/FOX are sticking to <flag/actions/disrespect> spin because that is a much easier ground upon which to spin up some white grievance. Talking about <Officer Use of Force incidents> and how they come down heavier and bloodier on people of darker complexion is a hard issue that Republicans would rather pretend doesn't exist. I am surprised that you are accepting the premises of the Lib side here. I don't think that there are meaningful grounds to distinguish between the message and the action. The bottom line is that Kaepernick is intentionally condemning and showing disrespect for the country. That's not going to rub people the right way. In your eyes, is there to say what he is saying in a respectful way? There are a couple layers to peel here. First, using the national anthem to protest the country in any way is a bad idea for the reasons that Donald Trump showed this weekend (like I discussed yesterday). It's too easy to have your cause turned (fairly or not) into a referendum on your patriotism (regardless of the justness of your cause). Second, and like all of the conservative posters have been saying til they have been blue in the face, framing the issue in terms of the country being racist is only going to piss people off and turn them against you. The better way to approach the issue is to frame it as a race neutral issue along the lines of "Police brutality is a problem in this country" or "Inner city families are broken and need help." Amazing things will happen when you stop calling whitey racist. So you are saying that blacks framing these issues as black issues rather than "everyone issues", they lose support from whites?
Yes, but I'd go a step further. Framing it as an everyone issue and using illustration of police violence against whites and other races (of which there are plenty of examples) would do more to get universal support than just framing it as a black issue. But more importantly, you can't use race as a wedge to divide people as is currently being done. Once it becomes "us vs them," the debate is over.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On September 27 2017 04:02 thePunGun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2017 03:22 brian wrote:
weird. because we’ve been hearing about the disrespect to the flag for twenty pages. This entire discussion is quite comical. People are more important than symbols, George Carlin's famous quote: Is my mantra, when it comes to stuff like that.
George Carlin is a comedian, and my general rule of thumb is, "if your news comes from a comedian then your news source is literally a joke."
But perhaps Carlin in particular deserves a few more words than that. He was definitely quite popular when alive, though I would say that if I had to describe his style, it would be decidedly nihilistic. A very pointed sort of pessimism that offered people a view that "X and Y doesn't really matter and our priorities are all wrong for focusing on it." If that's your style then fine - but for me and definitely for at least a couple others, it is lamentably reductionist and fails to capture reality beyond that of a "deep" line of thought in the middle of a marijuana break.
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On September 27 2017 04:41 LegalLord wrote:
Advocating for civil rights is good. Trying to frame the opposition/moderation in terms of racial identity politics and encouraging the most scummy amongst your own rank to do their stuff just might not get you the results you want. A discomfort fetish is just a great way to be an annoying twat.
You're overstating what you perceive to be a problem. Nobody's talking about a discomfort fetish but you.
Also come on, he mentioned a single quote from George Carlin. It's not like he walks around with one of his books like a Christian would the bible, lighten up.
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EPT
