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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 8771

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 19 2017 04:10 GMT
#175401
On September 19 2017 13:04 Doodsmack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 19 2017 10:26 Doodsmack wrote:


Just actually realizing how big of a deal this is. FBI had Trump's former campaign manager wiretapped both before and after the election. Imagine if that had gotten leaked. Who were the idiots inside the FBI that pushed Comey to publicly announce the reopening of the emails but not this? Please bring these people down, Mueller.

This is probably what Trump was referring to this past spring with his tweet about being wiretapped.
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
September 19 2017 04:11 GMT
#175402
The way this article is written amuses me, despite it not being hugely important.

Lawyers served notices to Reddit, Richard Spencer, Baked Alaska, and Mike Cernovich.

Pepe the Frog creator Matt Furie has made good on his threat to "aggressively enforce his intellectual property."

The artist's lawyers have taken legal action against the alt-right. They have served cease and desist orders to several alt-right personalities and websites including Richard Spencer, Mike Cernovich, and the r/the_Donald subreddit. In addition, they have issued Digital Millennium Copyright Act takedown requests to Reddit and Amazon, notifying them that use of Pepe by the alt-right on their platforms is copyright infringement. The message is to the alt-right is clear—stop using Pepe the Frog or prepare for legal consequences.

Furie originally created Pepe as a non-political character for his Boy's Club comic, but Pepe later became an internet meme and during the 2016 US presidential election the alt-right movement appropriated the frog in various grotesque and hateful memes.

At the end of August, Furie's lawyers reached a settlement with Eric Hauser—the former assistant principal in Texas who appropriated Pepe's image for use in an Islamophobic children's book. Furie's lawyers forced Hauser to stop selling the book and made him donate his profits to the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

When Hauser agreed to settle out of court, I spoke with Furie's lawyers who told me they would use the Hauser settlement as a springboard to go after anyone else who profited from or misused Pepe. It appears they've made good on that promise.

Read More: Here Are the Letters That Pepe the Frog's Lawyers Sent to the Alt Right

Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr LLP continues to represent Furie pro-bono, and recently told me that it has taken the first steps to prying Pepe loose from the hands of the alt-right.

"[Furie] was very serious when he said that we wanted to make clear that Pepe was not the property of the alt-right and couldn't be used by the alt-right," Louis Tompros, one of Furie's intellectual property lawyers, told me. "But actions speak louder than words and we wanted to make sure we were backing up that statement against entities that were misappropriating the Pepe character and image. That's what we've been doing over the past few weeks."

To that end, Tompros and his team have taken the first steps towards dismantling the alt-right's stranglehold on Pepe. They've served a cease and desist letter to Richard Spencer's Altright.com, noting the specific places where Spencer and his team have used Pepe in violation of Furie's copyright. Pepe is all over Spencer's site and is the mascot for his podcast, Alt-Right Politics.

"We've asked them to take them down," Tompros said. "That hasn't happened yet, but they're very much on notice. We plan to take action if they don't."

Tompros and team have also gone after alt-right figure Baked Alaska, serving cease and desist letters to him and DMCA notices to Amazon, Twitter and his other online social media spaces. According to the lawyers, they also got Amazon to stop selling his book, Meme Magic: Secrets Revealed, which used Pepe on its cover. Meme Magic is currently not available on Amazon.com, but a used copy was for sale on Amazon.co.uk at the time of publishing.

"Google Play has stopped selling his Build the Wall: The Game for the same reason. It actually advertised special guest appearance from Pepe and had him popping up if you achieved certain things in the game," Tompros said. Previously, Apple had refused to publish the game until it removed Pepe the Frog. Apple has a blanket ban against Pepe the frog that it has enforced against multiple app creators.

"Mike Cernovich had a number of different uses of Pepe but most notably had this video he was publicising through his Facebook and YouTube that was a 3D version of Pepe dancing with Hillary Clinton reading aloud sections of her new book," Tompros said. "That's an unauthorized use of Pepe and we've notified him."

Tompros told me that large entities such as Amazon and Google have been the most compliant so far. Stamping out the multiple vendors peddling Pepe mech on Amazon will be difficult, but the team has already succeeded in removing several shirts from the market, including the one worn by Morris May when he pepper sprayed a transgender activist in early September.

Amazon, Reddit, Twitter, Google, YouTube, Mike Cernovich, Baked Alaska, and Richard Spencer did not immediately respond to request for comment.

DMCA takedowns have become a popular way for media companies to strike back against social media influencers they don't like for a variety of reasons, including reasons that go beyond mere copyright infringement. Earlier this month, video game developer Campo Santo served a DMCA notice to popular YouTuber Pewdiepie in response to the latter's use of racial slur during his show.

Furie's lawyers have sent DMCAs to Reddit, and have also used the site's internal formal reporting procedures to reign in the popular r/The_Donald subreddit. The online community is one of the the alt-right's most popular gathering places and makes liberal use of Pepe the Frog. A giant Pepe the Frog dominates a quarter of the screen for Redditors who haven't subscribed to the subreddit. You have to click him—and thereby subscribe to r/The_Donald—to make him go away.

As of this reporting, the giant Pepe remains, but Tombros told me that they'd only contacted Reddit Friday. "My suspicion is that Reddit will take that down," he said.

If Reddit or r/the_donald's moderators don't police the use of Pepe in the subreddit, Furie's lawyers are prepared to file lawsuits and fight to free Pepe from the clutches of the alt-right in a court of law. "If necessary, we expect to bring a lawsuit for copyright infringement," Tompros said. "I want to make sure that people have enough time to comply. The goal here is not to initiate lawsuits. The goal is to get the misuse of Pepe to stop. I'd rather do that through people complying with the cease and desist notices. But we're certainly ready, willing, and able to bring suits to follow up for the folks who do not comply."

In the past, the alt-right has attacked its enemies with vicious doxing and online abuse campaigns. Tompros and his team understand that's a risk, but it's one they're willing to take.

"We're doing what we think is the right thing," he said. "We understand that we're dealing with serious folks here and we want to make clear to them that we're serious too. We're not going to stand for this."

The legal battle with Hauser has give the team both hope and precedent. "It shows we're serious," Tompros said. "It shows the copyright has been enforced before...as we have more and more of these actions where we're successfully able to remove misuse of the Pepe image and character, they'll build upon each other. I'm hopeful we'll reach a place where this stops, where the alt-right realizes it's too much trouble dealing with us to be misappropriating this character and they move on."

Furie has continued to avoid speaking with the media about Pepe, but Tompros told me the win against Hauser lifted his spirits. "That's been powerful for him," the lawyer said. "He's ready and wants to keep up the fight and wants to take down anyone who's using his character. He's also received words of support from fans and others. He's taking comfort in that."

"We're going to keep on fighting," Tompros said. "I hope we're doing what others would do when it's there to turn to stand up for the good guys."

As of this writing, Pepe shirts were still available on Amazon—though it seemed there were far fewer available than normal—and Pepe was still visible on Cernovich and Spencer's sites as well as r/The_Donald subreddit.


motherboard.vice.com
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 19 2017 04:13 GMT
#175403
I was looking for this quote comparison since Nevuk linked her recent interview. It really is simply amazing what losing an election will do about your fears for Democracy.


In other news, the wiretapping charge by Trump that led to much guffawing was actually proved true recently.

Washington (CNN)US investigators wiretapped former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort under secret court orders before and after the election, sources tell CNN, an extraordinary step involving a high-ranking campaign official now at the center of the Russia meddling probe.

The government snooping continued into early this year, including a period when Manafort was known to talk to President Donald Trump.
Some of the intelligence collected includes communications that sparked concerns among investigators that Manafort had encouraged the Russians to help with the campaign, according to three sources familiar with the investigation. Two of these sources, however, cautioned that the evidence is not conclusive.

Special counsel Robert Mueller's team, which is leading the investigation into Russia's involvement in the election, has been provided details of these communications.
A secret order authorized by the court that handles the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) began after Manafort became the subject of an FBI investigation that began in 2014. It centered on work done by a group of Washington consulting firms for Ukraine's former ruling party, the sources told CNN.
The surveillance was discontinued at some point last year for lack of evidence, according to one of the sources.
The FBI then restarted the surveillance after obtaining a new FISA warrant that extended at least into early this year.
Sources say the second warrant was part of the FBI's efforts to investigate ties between Trump campaign associates and suspected Russian operatives. Such warrants require the approval of top Justice Department and FBI officials, and the FBI must provide the court with information showing suspicion that the subject of the warrant may be acting as an agent of a foreign power.

CNN

Tweet in question:


Trump's campaign chairman was under wiretaps before and after the 2016 election.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
September 19 2017 04:16 GMT
#175404
Yup, the chairman. Not Trump, nor the Trump Tower, as Trump claims.

The "nothing found" kinda gives it away, because it kinda clashes with:

Some of the intelligence collected includes communications that sparked concerns among investigators that Manafort had encouraged the Russians to help with the campaign, according to three sources familiar with the investigation. Two of these sources, however, cautioned that the evidence is not conclusive.


Inconclusive doesn't mean "nothing found". That's the best case.

He was just spouting his usual bullshit because he got paranoid.
On track to MA1950A.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
September 19 2017 04:22 GMT
#175405
It seems that to a certain subset of the population democracy is just another word for getting what you want from government.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Tachion
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada8573 Posts
September 19 2017 04:25 GMT
#175406
Are we already forgetting that the DoJ refuted Trump's wiretapping claims? This is just a desperate stretch to try to vindicate his past bullshit.
i was driving down the road this november eve and spotted a hitchhiker walking down the street. i pulled over and saw that it was only a tree. i uprooted it and put it in my trunk. do trees like marshmallow peeps? cause that's all i have and will have.
Aquanim
Profile Joined November 2012
Australia2849 Posts
September 19 2017 04:25 GMT
#175407
Contemplating challenging the legitimacy of the election before and after allegations with non-zero substance are raised that the election was meaningfully interfered with are two pretty different things. I'd personally not have worded the later statement the way Clinton did but I don't see it as exceptionally hypocritical either.

Depending on how you read it there may be a distinction between challenging the "legitimacy" and the "result" of the election as well.
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
September 19 2017 04:27 GMT
#175408
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 19 2017 04:33 GMT
#175409
On September 19 2017 13:16 m4ini wrote:
Yup, the chairman. Not Trump, nor the Trump Tower, as Trump claims.

The "nothing found" kinda gives it away, because it kinda clashes with:

Show nested quote +
Some of the intelligence collected includes communications that sparked concerns among investigators that Manafort had encouraged the Russians to help with the campaign, according to three sources familiar with the investigation. Two of these sources, however, cautioned that the evidence is not conclusive.


Inconclusive doesn't mean "nothing found". That's the best case.

He was just spouting his usual bullshit because he got paranoid.

People aren't wiretapped. Communications systems are wiretapped. Manafort was Trump's campaign manager, and Trump's campaign was headquartered at Trump Tower. If the FBI was investigating Manafort for elections-related crimes, they may very well have gotten a judge to sign off on wiretapping Trump Tower. Given the apparent secrecy under which this surveillance was conducted, I wouldn't be surprised if the DoJ was largely in the dark as to what was going on when it rebutted Trump's wiretapping claim earlier this year.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 19 2017 04:51 GMT
#175410
On September 19 2017 13:25 Tachion wrote:
Are we already forgetting that the DoJ refuted Trump's wiretapping claims? This is just a desperate stretch to try to vindicate his past bullshit.

His campaign was under wiretap before and after the election. It's not a perfect vindication, but it more than covers the blowback that claimed it was all invented. I have to ask, did you read the story? Documented FICA is a pretty telling detail.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Aquanim
Profile Joined November 2012
Australia2849 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-19 04:56:47
September 19 2017 04:56 GMT
#175411
The implication in Trump's tweet that "Obama" had his wires tapped and that it was "McCarthyism", i.e. using legal means to push political agendas, doesn't appear to have been vindicated.

Unless there's evidence which contradicts that, I would still say that the main thesis of Trump's tweet is invented.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-19 05:18:21
September 19 2017 05:16 GMT
#175412
do ya'll really want to be the side arguing trump was *right* about the wiretap, with the implication being the FBI had enough evidence that they went to a judge and got a FISA warrant to do it? like, trump is kind of a nitwit and doesn't know how it works so he's crying wiretap like a victim and probably doesn't know a wiretap on him/ his folks is actually probably a double bad thing, but i would expect better from our posters.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4748 Posts
September 19 2017 05:32 GMT
#175413
On September 19 2017 14:16 ticklishmusic wrote:
do ya'll really want to be the side arguing trump was *right* about the wiretap, with the implication being the FBI had enough evidence that they went to a judge and got a FISA warrant to do it? like, trump is kind of a nitwit and doesn't know how it works so he's crying wiretap like a victim and probably doesn't know a wiretap on him/ his folks is actually probably a double bad thing, but i would expect better from our posters.


As long as he thinks he is personally OK I'm not sure he cares as much. Manafort who?

Also not convinced this is the thing Trump is referring to in the tweet, but who knows. And it may be right anyways.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 19 2017 05:58 GMT
#175414
On September 19 2017 14:16 ticklishmusic wrote:
do ya'll really want to be the side arguing trump was *right* about the wiretap, with the implication being the FBI had enough evidence that they went to a judge and got a FISA warrant to do it? like, trump is kind of a nitwit and doesn't know how it works so he's crying wiretap like a victim and probably doesn't know a wiretap on him/ his folks is actually probably a double bad thing, but i would expect better from our posters.

He's still that big orange nitwit, don't worry. I'm hoping to roll up some of that past outrage that he would even suggest the Obama administration would wiretap his campaign. Now, if those wiretaps led to unmasking and leaks ... well that's the subject of current and future investigations. I'm sure the loyal opposition is equally committed to not allowing an outgoing administration to monitor, declassify, and leak information on a presidential campaign aiming to replace it.

The current state of FOIA on unmasking was delayed because the request was for documents now sent to the Obama presidential library. Well played.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-19 06:03:39
September 19 2017 06:02 GMT
#175415
On September 19 2017 14:16 ticklishmusic wrote:
do ya'll really want to be the side arguing trump was *right* about the wiretap, with the implication being the FBI had enough evidence that they went to a judge and got a FISA warrant to do it? like, trump is kind of a nitwit and doesn't know how it works so he's crying wiretap like a victim and probably doesn't know a wiretap on him/ his folks is actually probably a double bad thing, but i would expect better from our posters.


I have so many thoughts on this that I'm going to write a too-long post. The TLDR of it is this: The new report does not prove Trump was right, however it does prove that everyone else was lying or incompetent.

For instance this part:

On September 19 2017 13:25 Tachion wrote:
Are we already forgetting that the DoJ refuted Trump's wiretapping claims? This is just a desperate stretch to try to vindicate his past bullshit.


This means the DOJ was lying/incompetent. Knowing that Manafort had been wiretapped, a statement that says, "Trump and Trump Tower were not wiretapped" is a lie by omission if any electronic communications from Trump or Trump Tower were intercepted as a result of a FISA warrant. I find all of the VERY SPECIFIC definitions of "wiretap" coming out of this extremely disturbing. If the cops have a recording of me talking on the phone I have been wiretapped. I worked for a judge, if she found out an official did this in a criminal case he would be placed in contempt (not to mention a mistrial would have to be declared if the jury had been empaneled).

So DOJ is the worst. But nearly as bad/incompetent are/were the media. I will focus on Jake Tapper because he was the most angry about it. We have things like this:



His only defense of such a position now would be something like this:

On September 19 2017 13:16 m4ini wrote:
Yup, the chairman. Not Trump, nor the Trump Tower, as Trump claims.


This is an unacceptable level of journalistic malpractice. Lets say you are Mr. Tapper and have a "source familiar with the situation" on the phone after Trump claimed to have been wiretapped:

Source: Hey Jake, I know things and neither Trump nor Trump Tower were ever wiretapped.

If you are Mr. Tapper which of these things do you do?

1. Jake: Oh cool, thanks Mr. Source, I'll go write an article.
or
2. Jake: That is interesting, but I can't just run with that. If it ever comes out that the FBI listened to a Trump phone call I'll look like an idiot. So, do you know if any Trump phone calls were ever intercepted?
Source: Jake, we both know that can happen even if you aren't wiretapped.
Jake: Of course Mr. Source, but 360 million Americans think wiretaps = intercepting calls. I can only report he wasn't wiretapped if he wasn't and I also know none of his calls were intercepted. Otherwise I have to report that he "Wasn't technically wiretapped, but several of his phone calls were listened to by the FBI."
Freeeeeeedom
Aquanim
Profile Joined November 2012
Australia2849 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-19 06:09:47
September 19 2017 06:07 GMT
#175416
Does anybody here disagree with my assertion that the claim that the Obama administration wiretapped anybody related to the Trump campaign because he was a political opponent has no known basis in fact?
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13924 Posts
September 19 2017 06:28 GMT
#175417
On September 19 2017 15:07 Aquanim wrote:
Does anybody here disagree with my assertion that the claim that the Obama administration wiretapped anybody related to the Trump campaign because he was a political opponent has no known basis in fact?

Does it really matter why though? If Obama knew that Trumps campaign was being wiretapped indirectly thats a huge conflict of interest. That people in the media refuted, or were told to the effect that they refuted the fact of, that anyone was wiretapped is bad That it was done because he was a political opponent is subjective and opinion based. Its not Watergate where nixon specifically wanted to spy on the dems bad but its still pretty bad and would taint Obama's "practically scandal free" legacy.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Aquanim
Profile Joined November 2012
Australia2849 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-19 06:35:23
September 19 2017 06:34 GMT
#175418
On September 19 2017 15:28 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 19 2017 15:07 Aquanim wrote:
Does anybody here disagree with my assertion that the claim that the Obama administration wiretapped anybody related to the Trump campaign because he was a political opponent has no known basis in fact?

Does it really matter why though? If Obama knew that Trumps campaign was being wiretapped indirectly thats a huge conflict of interest. That people in the media refuted, or were told to the effect that they refuted the fact of, that anyone was wiretapped is bad That it was done because he was a political opponent is subjective and opinion based. Its not Watergate where nixon specifically wanted to spy on the dems bad but its still pretty bad and would taint Obama's "practically scandal free" legacy.

The argument that "we have sufficient cause to convince a judge that so-and-so should be investigated, but we're not allowed to investigate them because they're involved with the opposite party to the President" seems flawed to me.

Being involved with a political campaign is not and should not be a "get out of jail free" card that prevents you from being investigated. Do you disagree with that statement?
Wulfey_LA
Profile Joined April 2017
932 Posts
September 19 2017 06:40 GMT
#175419
A borrowed analogy:

If Fat Tony is wiretapped, but I call him, I still get recorded even though only Fat Tony is under surveillance. Manafort was under surveillance, so any and all of his calls (including Trump ones) could have been recorded. That and Trump tower was full of money launderers anyways so Manafort was almost certainly not the last person under surveillance.
riotjune
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States3393 Posts
September 19 2017 07:09 GMT
#175420
Chain lightning! BzzzZzZzZZ!!

Damn Manafort standing too far front, report this noob.
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