EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 8713
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On September 12 2017 13:35 Falling wrote: Well, as I was referencing a Chapelle bit, I might as go all the way. It's quite likely that in the above case, they wouldn't be called 'young children'. (They) "knew what they were doing". I could be wrong, but I think it's likely. Considering the descriptions of every black teen ever to "have done something wrong (not a necessity even sometimes)", yeah, i'm pretty sure the description would've been slightly different. Like in the case where black kids tortured the disabled guy. I like cancer though, so i went through comments on multiple reports. This here is the epidemic that has a hold on the US (edit: actually the entire "west"). At 14 yo, the perpetrators should absolutely NOT be named by names. They’re young offenders, likely still in junior high. Kids make stupid, stupid mistakes and that shouldn’t ruin their lives. Think of the stupidest thing you ever did at age 13-15 and think about if you would want to be judged for that now... At age 14 literally the worst and most illegal thing i've done was to start smoking. And i swear by everything holy, i was scared shitless, because in my generation, if you did shit and your dad found out, he sorted you out. Something that i feel like should come back. Would sort out the current generation of absolute entitled dickheads, maybe. Like what the fuck, we're talking a racially motivated hate crime and possibly attempted murder (or aggravated assault at the very least), and you have fucking imbeciles arguing that "aw come on, they're only 14". I mean, sure, if you want to imply that americans at age 14 are too stupid to gather that killing someone might have consequences, by all means. Back when i was 14, i never even would've thought of hanging someone, so there seems to be a huge disconnect with these kids already anyway. | ||
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Ayaz2810
United States2763 Posts
https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/09/08/presidential-memorandum-secretary-state-and-secretary-treasury Bonus: https://www.axios.com/russian-politician-says-russia-stole-u-s-presidency-on-live-tv-2484056561.html | ||
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Kyadytim
United States886 Posts
On September 12 2017 13:12 m4ini wrote: See my edit. I do agree that you're failing currently, and the "undoing things" is what i mean by not making the same mistakes. I could also put it this way: go forward in time. Not backwards. But, and here's the important part, that still doesn't make hatespeech less hatespeech. Nobody is denying (well, nobody sane, lets put it this way) that the US did wrong on black people. A black person throwing slurs at a white guy is not better or "more justified" than the other way around. If a jew comes at me, throwing slurs at me, curses and whatnot - i'm gonna knock the shit out of him if he's going too far, regardless of heritage. That's what i mean: hatespeech stays hatespeech, nobody has an inherent right to hatespeech because his ancestors were exploited. Of course, since it's legal, nobody should stop him, but it doesn't really help his otherwise valid point. It's a bit like jews, concentration camps and palestine. It makes your argument kind of invalid even if it's correct (it's kinda hard to explain what i'm trying to say, 5:20 in the morning and english not sufficient enough). Interesting argument. I assume you're a homophobe because you didn't participate in the lgbt discussions? I made a comment towards the kids, but what exactly do you expect people to discuss? That one could've seen this coming a mile away? That it only was a matter of time in the current climate in the US? It's a fucking logical conclusion to what's happening in the US, there's nothing to discuss. There's plenty to fix, but everything in that regard has been said over and over dozens of times. I think a better rejoinder might have been that I don't care about LGBT rights because I didn't participate in that discussion. More accurate would be that I completely missed that discussion. I get up some mornings and discover that there's ten new pages on this thread and don't have the time to catch up with the thread. You're probably right about there being nothing left to discuss. Even still... On September 12 2017 13:12 xDaunt wrote: Maybe some of us aren't particularly interested in pointing out the obvious? Feel free to participate in the puerile if you really want to. No one's stopping you. Just don't make the mistake of drawing stupid conclusions from the silence of others on the subject. Uh... It's pretty reasonable to conclude from what people spend their time on that they value the things they spend time on more than the things they don't spend time on. You didn't even bother with a Anyway, let's move a little past the obvious of "this is bad." Let's also take the racial element out of it. How about "What do you think could be changed in American society such that teens don't think it's acceptable to hurt other people for entertainment?" | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
I think a better rejoinder might have been that I don't care about LGBT rights because I didn't participate in that discussion. More accurate would be that I completely missed that discussion. I get up some mornings and discover that there's ten new pages on this thread and don't have the time to catch up with the thread. You're probably right about there being nothing left to discuss. Should i quote you or do you remember what you said after people didn't immediately jump on this, mainly because they were discussing something else? How about "What do you think could be changed in American society such that teens don't think it's acceptable to hurt other people for entertainment?" Teach them consequences. It literally is that easy. I learned the concept of consequences early, and i've never forgotten. I also have never gone to jail, or did anything majorly criminal or violent (yeah, i used public transports without ticket, that kinda stuff). I know many people here will disagree, but a good justified beating does help. If you associate doing "shit" with "having pain", that's a good thing. If you have no grasp of the concept of consequences, well. I guess you hang people for fun. | ||
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Kyadytim
United States886 Posts
On September 12 2017 14:01 m4ini wrote: Should i quote you or do you remember what you said after people didn't immediately jump on this, mainly because they were discussing something else? Teach them consequences. You should probably have quoted me, because I am terrible at this, but I can look back and check. Hmm... Yup, I should probably stop spending my time talking to you about this, because it's really not worth either of us spending time on. Especially as it's past 5AM for you. I don't want to keep you up. Also, that question was directed to xDaunt. Teach them consequences is a good idea, but it does assume that there's going to be significant consequences for them. This might not be the case, which is another problem that I'd like to see how xDaunt thinks should be addressed. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On September 12 2017 14:05 Kyadytim wrote: You should probably have quoted me, because I am terrible at this, but I can look back and check. Hmm... Yup, I should probably stop spending my time talking to you about this, because it's really not worth either of us spending time on. Especially as it's past 5AM for you. I don't want to keep you up. Also, that question was directed to xDaunt. Teach them consequences is a good idea, but it does assume that there's going to be significant consequences for them. This might not be the case, which is another problem that I'd like to see how xDaunt thinks should be addressed. You were "bitching" about us talking about the black possibly racist guy (whatever the name was), rather than the stringing incident. That's because it kinda doesn't make sense to argue 7 things at once. Apart from that, see my edit. They did this, i assume, because they don't grasp/fear the concept of consequences. That has to start way earlier. As a good example, i've got a nephew, almost 8 years old. Every time my sister in law comes over with him, and i watch her to get him to put his shoes on for 20 minutes, i think to myself "girl, that'll be fun in the future". That's where it starts. He literally doesn't understand that if he's being told something, he has to do it. Because there's no consequence other than his mother saying "Dewi please, i said put the shoes on" for 20 minutes, he's simply not doing it. Why would he, he has the choice of playing his DS and ignoring his mother, or putting his shoes on. Back then, i didn't have a choice once being told "do this". Either i did, or i had to sit through various consequences ranging from "not being able to go out and play", having my Amiga taken away, a fun fair on my ass (Arsch hat Kirmes, german phrase - getting arse-slapped, basically), etc. That's something that's socially not acceptable nowadays anymore. Sadly. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23873 Posts
On September 12 2017 14:01 m4ini wrote: Should i quote you or do you remember what you said after people didn't immediately jump on this, mainly because they were discussing something else? Teach them consequences. It literally is that easy. I learned the concept of consequences early, and i've never forgotten. I also have never gone to jail, or did anything majorly criminal or violent (yeah, i used public transports without ticket, that kinda stuff). I know many people here will disagree, but a good justified beating does help. If you associate doing "shit" with "having pain", that's a good thing. If you have no grasp of the concept of consequences, well. I guess you hang people for fun. That's just it about America (and I suspect other societies around different lines) there's some kids who get called super predators and need to be brought to heel and other kids who are misguided youths who need protection from the consequences of their behavior. I don't believe in American prisons at all, or that the justice system as being much more than a revenge machine, so I don't think they also need to be labeled super predators or anything. I do find it curious that so many who leap to talk about "culture" when it's non-white people who seem to be displaying a pattern of violence, but when it's white people it's back to individuals. Though I wouldn't leap to the conclusion some of our regulars are readily convinced these white kids hanging this biracial kid was actually racist, nor the concern to protect the perpetrators as opposed to getting justice (in the traditional American sense) for the victim. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On September 12 2017 14:01 m4ini wrote: Should i quote you or do you remember what you said after people didn't immediately jump on this, mainly because they were discussing something else? Teach them consequences. It literally is that easy. I learned the concept of consequences early, and i've never forgotten. I also have never gone to jail, or did anything majorly criminal or violent (yeah, i used public transports without ticket, that kinda stuff). I know many people here will disagree, but a good justified beating does help. If you associate doing "shit" with "having pain", that's a good thing. If you have no grasp of the concept of consequences, well. I guess you hang people for fun. get the switch out User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
On September 12 2017 13:44 m4ini wrote: Considering the descriptions of every black teen ever to "have done something wrong (not a necessity even sometimes)", yeah, i'm pretty sure the description would've been slightly different. Like in the case where black kids tortured the disabled guy. I like cancer though, so i went through comments on multiple reports. This here is the epidemic that has a hold on the US (edit: actually the entire "west"). At age 14 literally the worst and most illegal thing i've done was to start smoking. And i swear by everything holy, i was scared shitless, because in my generation, if you did shit and your dad found out, he sorted you out. Something that i feel like should come back. Would sort out the current generation of absolute entitled dickheads, maybe. Like what the fuck, we're talking a racially motivated hate crime and possibly attempted murder (or aggravated assault at the very least), and you have fucking imbeciles arguing that "aw come on, they're only 14". I mean, sure, if you want to imply that americans at age 14 are too stupid to gather that killing someone might have consequences, by all means. Back when i was 14, i never even would've thought of hanging someone, so there seems to be a huge disconnect with these kids already anyway. Yes let's start beating our kids again and have authoritarian father figures. This never went wrong in any shape or form. | ||
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Karis Vas Ryaar
United States4396 Posts
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KwarK
United States43898 Posts
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Falling
Canada11489 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12442 Posts
On September 12 2017 13:40 IgnE wrote: i don't really see the point in electrocuting five children for being the idiot products of their idiot parents. When I theorycraft the future generation one of the main things I'm afraid of is that it won't have to be their idiot parents at all anymore, the internet has the capacity to get you there quite fast. From Gamergate to Sargon, and if you don't really agree with Sargon on the "right" things, with reddit and Kekistan giving you the impression that it's a funny joke, you can end up at Black Pigeon Speaks quite fast, the whole process should take like about two years I would guess. Don't really have a solution. Just think it might be a problem. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18262 Posts
On September 12 2017 15:34 Nebuchad wrote: When I theorycraft the future generation one of the main things I'm afraid of is that it won't have to be their idiot parents at all anymore, the internet has the capacity to get you there quite fast. From Gamergate to Sargon, and if you don't really agree with Sargon on the "right" things, with reddit and Kekistan giving you the impression that it's a funny joke, you can end up at Black Pigeon Speaks quite fast, the whole process should take like about two years I would guess. Don't really have a solution. Just think it might be a problem. Is it good or bad that you lost me after gamergate. Wtf is Sargon and all that other stuff? | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12442 Posts
On September 12 2017 17:13 Acrofales wrote: Is it good or bad that you lost me after gamergate. Wtf is Sargon and all that other stuff? It's politics on youtube. Sargon is far right and he poses as a skeptic/rational centrist. You get to him from gamergate cause he's also antifeminist of course. Then you grow up a little in this environment and in these ideas and you have a path that is I think quite easy/intuitive to follow if you don't have other influences, from there to outright extremist voices like BPS or The Alternative Hypothesis. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11799 Posts
On September 12 2017 15:27 Falling wrote: You are probably right. There is a bunch of research on this, too. Basically the consensus is that the style of raising your children that produces the best results (Less criminal, better at school, more successful in live, generally more happy) is the authoritative style. (This is not the same as authoritarian!). The general idea is "firm, but loving". There are clear rules and consequences to violating those rules, but those consequences are always dealt out in a loving manner. The parents have high expectations of their child, but they are fair. Consistency is important. Punishments are never handed out in anger, but always understood to be a fair consequence of the childs behavior. And obviously no physical punishments. Regarding the topic of the lynching guys, i agree that there is a large difference in how black teens are portrayed when compared to white teens, and that is a problem. However, I also don't believe in mob justice. Releasing the names of underage criminals is simply not something that should be done, ever. There obviously need to be consequences for this kind of behavior, but those should be done by the justice system, not by a mob of random people. Of course, that would require a fair justice system, which the US doesn't really seem to have. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On September 12 2017 19:02 Simberto wrote: There is a bunch of research on this, too. Basically the consensus is that the style of raising your children that produces the best results (Less criminal, better at school, more successful in live, generally more happy) is the authoritative style. (This is not the same as authoritarian!). The general idea is "firm, but loving". There are clear rules and consequences to violating those rules, but those consequences are always dealt out in a loving manner. The parents have high expectations of their child, but they are fair. Consistency is important. Punishments are never handed out in anger, but always understood to be a fair consequence of the childs behavior. And obviously no physical punishments. Regarding the topic of the lynching guys, i agree that there is a large difference in how black teens are portrayed when compared to white teens, and that is a problem. However, I also don't believe in mob justice. Releasing the names of underage criminals is simply not something that should be done, ever. There obviously need to be consequences for this kind of behavior, but those should be done by the justice system, not by a mob of random people. Of course, that would require a fair justice system, which the US doesn't really seem to have. Not to defend these guys, because that shit is clearly fucked, but isn't it a default stance of the media to not release names of people under 18 anyway? | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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