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On September 10 2017 21:09 farvacola wrote:
Haha, GH the incrementalist Coates fan, that's a nice title.
I don't see a problem with symbolic reparations and think that his article on reparations is mostly unobjectionable. What is your problem with it?
@ xDaunt and LL
I don't really see very much that's objectionable in his essay on Trump as first White President.
These seem to be his main actionable items, and might form a "platform" for his "black identity politics" but I just don't see anything positively articulated here that is objectionable:
Few national liberal politicians have shown any recognition that there is something systemic and particular in the relationship between black people and their country that might require specific policy solutions.
[...]
Resistance to the monstrous incarceration of legions of black men, resistance to the destruction of health providers for poor women, resistance to the effort to deport parents, resistance to a policing whose sole legitimacy is rooted in brute force, resistance to a theory of education that preaches “no excuses” to black and brown children, even as excuses are proffered for mendacious corporate executives “too big to jail.”
Coates goes in on everyone, Hillary included. I don't think it's necessarily any more Anti-Bernie than it is Anti-Clinton(s). He even criticizes Bill for playing at "white identity" politics in Arkansas.
The main objections I have are negative ones. He is of course right that blacks have been excluded by a racist regime from what Jameson would call "guaranteed life" provided by the Welfare State. But there is perhaps an overall failure to see that white supremacy as code (in the Deleuzian sense, as the unconscious investment of a social field) serves the purposes of capital by dissecting and resecting a laboring class, ensuring a reserve army of laborers, and a permanent underclass. And simply resecting it is not enough. In other words, it seems that he doesn't seem to recognize that racial equality amongst inequality is simply not enough. That replacing some blacks in the ghetto with whites and some whites in the suburbs with blacks, to effect penguinized ghettos and gated communites, is not enough. But that is only a problem if you present the situation as either this or that, rather than this and this and …
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Your last paragraph gets at it, I think Coates doesn't understand the terms through which reparations and the solutions to the crises of late capitalism are entwined with one another. Reparations won't be found in a Conyers bill inspired debate, they will be found in changing the terms of political discourse such that widespread basic guarantees of necessity are handled the same way we do military budgets now. Any mention of cost, even if in waffling "it'll prolly be a lot, we might as well start talking about it" terms, suggests that Coates is still buying into a system he's supposedly railing against, and given his unwillingness to address the extent to which Obama's economics made the exact same mistakes, I think he's unaware of why this continues to be problematic. (There's also my pet concern relative to reparations/the path forward: without a critical look at our nation's state/federal "dual sovereignty" divide and its legal implications, I don't think any truly progressive redistributive program can be created. That said, I'm out on a limb here, so I don't hold this against anyone lol).
To be sure, I would figure Coates as an ally in much the same way I do Obama, only I think the places he's chosen to hedge are the places where the hard work needs to be done.
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In a non judgemental or demeaning tone, what exactly is "symbolic reperations"? I love never assumed that a literal reperations plan was talked about seriously but I'm hesitant in opening the door to any kind of race based improvement plan. I could see a general agreement that "we all failed to integrate the slaves from the south into the economic political and cultural structure of our nation on an equal standing with any other group we've had done just far" and then embark on a comprehensive plan to better the people who live in ghettos and trailer parks equally based on socioeconomic standing.
Also on an aside a policing who's sole legitimacy is based on brute force? Racist and overly violent I can understand but is this a seriously argument that police only have brute force for legitimacy?
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I tried to find a piece where he directly addresses reparations, but I haven’t been able to find one. I can’t tell if he truly believes reparation should happen or if he advocates for them as a way to force readers to quantify the damage done by slavery. He has never been one to advocate for specific policies and most of his pieces designed to promote discussion, my bet is on the latter.
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Even as Hurricane Irma was bringing its might to bear on the west coast of Florida, there was one thing that could not be buried by the immense storm's winds: all the wreckage those winds have made of the Caribbean.
From Antigua to Cuba, the string of small islands so often considered tourist paradises endured the hellish brunt of a Category 5 hurricane.
Smack in the center of that path were the U.S. Virgin Islands, a territory torn apart with the storm's arrival Wednesday. Now, days later, many on the islands fear the focus of their fellow Americans will be irreversibly drawn to the mainland, while they're left to pick up the pieces.
The Associated Press reports that of the at least 24 people who were killed by Irma in the Caribbean, at least four people died in the U.S. territory.
"This is a horrific disaster. There will be no restorations or solutions in days or weeks," U.S. Virgin Islands Gov. Kenneth Mapp told reporters Saturday. "Let's manage our expectations."
President Trump issued a major disaster declaration for the battered U.S. territory Saturday, freeing up more federal funds to support recovery efforts, including the removal of debris.
Mapp said St. Croix, an island spared the worst of Irma's effects, has become the temporary staging area for delivering relief supplies to the rest of the U.S. and British Virgin Islands. On St. Croix are aircraft, troops — and residents such as Elizabeth Smith, who told NPR about the situation faced by the territory four days after the storm's departure.
The other two major islands in the U.S. territory, St. John and St. Thomas, are still "not safe," Smith wrote in an email Sunday.
"No power, no running water, no cell service. The only hospital on St. John faced catastrophic failure during the storm. Patients with life threatening injuries were evacuated to hospitals in Puerto Rico and St. Croix."
Smith reports obstacles to obtaining assistance from the Federal Emergency Management Agency, including the fact that the stations distributing food or water in rations are difficult to find without power or cell service.
Meanwhile, the State Department continues to coordinate evacuation efforts for U.S. citizens who remain on St. Martin — an island half by the Dutch and half by the French — administered through social media, radio and in reaching out to hotels and Airbnb locations, spokesperson Heather Nauert said in a statement.
The department warned passengers arriving at the island's Princess Juliana International Airport, "there is no running water at the airport and very limited shelter."
Several cruise lines have offered their ships to assist in recovery efforts, sending them fully stocked to usher tourists to safety off the islands, according to the Miami Herald.
Source
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On September 11 2017 22:23 Sermokala wrote:
In a non judgemental or demeaning tone, what exactly is "symbolic reperations"? I love never assumed that a literal reperations plan was talked about seriously but I'm hesitant in opening the door to any kind of race based improvement plan. I could see a general agreement that "we all failed to integrate the slaves from the south into the economic political and cultural structure of our nation on an equal standing with any other group we've had done just far" and then embark on a comprehensive plan to better the people who live in ghettos and trailer parks equally based on socioeconomic standing.
Also on an aside a policing who's sole legitimacy is based on brute force? Racist and overly violent I can understand but is this a seriously argument that police only have brute force for legitimacy?
All polices legitimacy is built through brute force. We just don't mind because, ideally, the brute force is used to protect us.
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On September 12 2017 00:03 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 22:23 Sermokala wrote:
In a non judgemental or demeaning tone, what exactly is "symbolic reperations"? I love never assumed that a literal reperations plan was talked about seriously but I'm hesitant in opening the door to any kind of race based improvement plan. I could see a general agreement that "we all failed to integrate the slaves from the south into the economic political and cultural structure of our nation on an equal standing with any other group we've had done just far" and then embark on a comprehensive plan to better the people who live in ghettos and trailer parks equally based on socioeconomic standing.
Also on an aside a policing who's sole legitimacy is based on brute force? Racist and overly violent I can understand but is this a seriously argument that police only have brute force for legitimacy? All polices legitimacy is built through brute force. We just don't mind because, ideally, the brute force is used to protect us.
That can't be true surely it's legitimacy is given by its commission from the state to "protect and serve"?
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Just imagine cases of wrongful arrest, or wrongful stop and frisk, and then think about what your options for redress are if it happens to you.
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On September 12 2017 00:30 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 00:03 kollin wrote:On September 11 2017 22:23 Sermokala wrote:
In a non judgemental or demeaning tone, what exactly is "symbolic reperations"? I love never assumed that a literal reperations plan was talked about seriously but I'm hesitant in opening the door to any kind of race based improvement plan. I could see a general agreement that "we all failed to integrate the slaves from the south into the economic political and cultural structure of our nation on an equal standing with any other group we've had done just far" and then embark on a comprehensive plan to better the people who live in ghettos and trailer parks equally based on socioeconomic standing.
Also on an aside a policing who's sole legitimacy is based on brute force? Racist and overly violent I can understand but is this a seriously argument that police only have brute force for legitimacy? All polices legitimacy is built through brute force. We just don't mind because, ideally, the brute force is used to protect us. That can't be true surely it's legitimacy is given by its commission from the state to "protect and serve"?
That was/is the motto of the LA police department that has become common place in the public discourse. I have never seen it directly linked to police powers given by the state.
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On September 12 2017 00:30 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 00:03 kollin wrote:On September 11 2017 22:23 Sermokala wrote:
In a non judgemental or demeaning tone, what exactly is "symbolic reperations"? I love never assumed that a literal reperations plan was talked about seriously but I'm hesitant in opening the door to any kind of race based improvement plan. I could see a general agreement that "we all failed to integrate the slaves from the south into the economic political and cultural structure of our nation on an equal standing with any other group we've had done just far" and then embark on a comprehensive plan to better the people who live in ghettos and trailer parks equally based on socioeconomic standing.
Also on an aside a policing who's sole legitimacy is based on brute force? Racist and overly violent I can understand but is this a seriously argument that police only have brute force for legitimacy? All polices legitimacy is built through brute force. We just don't mind because, ideally, the brute force is used to protect us. That can't be true surely it's legitimacy is given by its commission from the state to "protect and serve"?
And the legitimacy from the state is made legitimate by the people, who say 'we'll let you use brute force, as long as it's to protect and serve us'.
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I'm on my phone so I can't multi quote but I was mostly using protect and serve as a stand in for an ordered jurisdiction that a police force is given.
Kollin if in that case then the legitimacy is derived from the consent of the people and not directly brute force. Either way it's a needless mischaracterization of police.
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On September 12 2017 00:36 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 00:30 Sermokala wrote:On September 12 2017 00:03 kollin wrote:On September 11 2017 22:23 Sermokala wrote:
In a non judgemental or demeaning tone, what exactly is "symbolic reperations"? I love never assumed that a literal reperations plan was talked about seriously but I'm hesitant in opening the door to any kind of race based improvement plan. I could see a general agreement that "we all failed to integrate the slaves from the south into the economic political and cultural structure of our nation on an equal standing with any other group we've had done just far" and then embark on a comprehensive plan to better the people who live in ghettos and trailer parks equally based on socioeconomic standing.
Also on an aside a policing who's sole legitimacy is based on brute force? Racist and overly violent I can understand but is this a seriously argument that police only have brute force for legitimacy? All polices legitimacy is built through brute force. We just don't mind because, ideally, the brute force is used to protect us. That can't be true surely it's legitimacy is given by its commission from the state to "protect and serve"? That was/is the motto of the LA police department that has become common place in the public discourse. I have never seen it directly linked to police powers given by the state.
It's not, police explicitly do not have a duty to protect and that's been held up in court.
I've been trying to find the details on it (i.e any limits) or if it's different in other countries, but as far as I can tell as police officer can legally watch you get shot in the face and the only repercussions would be potential professional ones (i.e your boss gets mad at you). Well some states may have a good samaritan law they would be in violation of, but not a police specific one as far as I can tell. It's my understanding that's how we get things like Charlottesville where a guy fires a gun towards a crowd and the police standing 20 feet away do nothing.
There's plenty of cases like this one that set precedence (and unbelievably this is maybe one of the less gruesome ones): http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html
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United States43565 Posts
On September 12 2017 00:03 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 22:23 Sermokala wrote:
In a non judgemental or demeaning tone, what exactly is "symbolic reperations"? I love never assumed that a literal reperations plan was talked about seriously but I'm hesitant in opening the door to any kind of race based improvement plan. I could see a general agreement that "we all failed to integrate the slaves from the south into the economic political and cultural structure of our nation on an equal standing with any other group we've had done just far" and then embark on a comprehensive plan to better the people who live in ghettos and trailer parks equally based on socioeconomic standing.
Also on an aside a policing who's sole legitimacy is based on brute force? Racist and overly violent I can understand but is this a seriously argument that police only have brute force for legitimacy? All polices legitimacy is built through brute force. We just don't mind because, ideally, the brute force is used to protect us.
Not really. The police's legitimate use of force comes from accountability and the collective democratic will to imbue them with powers. In theory at least.
That's the point being made. That ideally when a police officer waves you over you should believe that he is doing so in your best interest and in line with the obligations society has placed upon law enforcement officers. Therefore you should happily comply, not out of fear but because his successful job serves your interests. But in reality you comply because you know you will be forced to comply. That reality is a failure of policing.
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The threat of force is always the reason I comply with the police. I got pulled over by a cop for not stopping fast enough for another traffic officer a couple years ago. The reason was because it was icy and I pumped my breaks to make sure I didn’t slide. He didn’t like that response and wanted to yell at me. So he kept me at stopped for a long time and claimed he was running my plates. I didn’t leave because I knew he could arrest me and I didn’t want to miss work.
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On September 12 2017 00:52 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 00:03 kollin wrote:On September 11 2017 22:23 Sermokala wrote:
In a non judgemental or demeaning tone, what exactly is "symbolic reperations"? I love never assumed that a literal reperations plan was talked about seriously but I'm hesitant in opening the door to any kind of race based improvement plan. I could see a general agreement that "we all failed to integrate the slaves from the south into the economic political and cultural structure of our nation on an equal standing with any other group we've had done just far" and then embark on a comprehensive plan to better the people who live in ghettos and trailer parks equally based on socioeconomic standing.
Also on an aside a policing who's sole legitimacy is based on brute force? Racist and overly violent I can understand but is this a seriously argument that police only have brute force for legitimacy? All polices legitimacy is built through brute force. We just don't mind because, ideally, the brute force is used to protect us. Not really. The police's legitimate use of force comes from accountability and the collective democratic will to imbue them with powers. In theory at least. That's the point being made. That ideally when a police officer waves you over you should believe that he is doing so in your best interest and in line with the obligations society has placed upon law enforcement officers. Therefore you should happily comply, not out of fear but because his successful job serves your interests. But in reality you comply because you know you will be forced to comply. That reality is a failure of policing.
Add this to the list of reasons being a cop should require a law degree and should be an extremely well paid career.
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policing by consent and all of this community stuff is only possible if the population is disarmed, because there'll never be mutual trust between police and citizens if the former don't hold the monopoly on force. So in a sense the statement that "police is built through brutal force" is correct, it just happens to be that this should have happened in the abstract.
That's why it's possible for the police in the UK to never shoot a bullet or approach anybody without automatically threatening them.
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On September 12 2017 00:58 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2017 00:52 KwarK wrote:On September 12 2017 00:03 kollin wrote:On September 11 2017 22:23 Sermokala wrote:
In a non judgemental or demeaning tone, what exactly is "symbolic reperations"? I love never assumed that a literal reperations plan was talked about seriously but I'm hesitant in opening the door to any kind of race based improvement plan. I could see a general agreement that "we all failed to integrate the slaves from the south into the economic political and cultural structure of our nation on an equal standing with any other group we've had done just far" and then embark on a comprehensive plan to better the people who live in ghettos and trailer parks equally based on socioeconomic standing.
Also on an aside a policing who's sole legitimacy is based on brute force? Racist and overly violent I can understand but is this a seriously argument that police only have brute force for legitimacy? All polices legitimacy is built through brute force. We just don't mind because, ideally, the brute force is used to protect us. Not really. The police's legitimate use of force comes from accountability and the collective democratic will to imbue them with powers. In theory at least. That's the point being made. That ideally when a police officer waves you over you should believe that he is doing so in your best interest and in line with the obligations society has placed upon law enforcement officers. Therefore you should happily comply, not out of fear but because his successful job serves your interests. But in reality you comply because you know you will be forced to comply. That reality is a failure of policing. Add this to the list of reasons being a cop should require a law degree and should be an extremely well paid career.
They don’t need a full blown law degree(they don’t need contracts or bankruptcy law), but they need better training on how law functions. But like all things, there is resistance from police to do that. They also don’t like mandatory requirements that they turn over all evidence collected to the DAs.
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EPT
