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On August 30 2017 10:11 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2017 10:07 Uldridge wrote:
Maybe people become racist because they've been in enough situations that have confirmed their prejudices that they can't disregard them any longer.
Trauma can easily make that happen for instance. What about rural folks who have never met 1 Muslim in their entire life and less than a handful of any minority, black, brown, gay, trans, etc. They're often absurdly racist but there's no way they've had enough situations to confirm anything. Racists don't come to a reasonable well founded conclusions.
Nobody is saying that there aren't blatantly racist people out there though.
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I mean this gets into the more philosophical question of to what degree we are culpable for our subconscious reactions to things. I tend to think we're not.
Like, I think most (straight) guys have had pretty heinous subconscious reactions to seeing attractive women at some point in their lives, especially during adolescence. If teenagers acted on some of the thoughts that popped into their brains uninvited a good portion of them would spend >10 years in federal prison and wind up on a list for the rest of their lives. But generally they don't act on them! Which is what we want, no?
It's important to be aware of those thoughts, recognize where they come from, and try to be careful not to act them out though. In the racism case you can easily discriminate without realizing you're doing it, especially when a lot of people's response to having a "racist" thought is to pretend they didn't think it because they don't want to be racist. So you might wind up interviewing a black candidate for a job, thinking "what if he's a criminal" but then pretending you didn't think it, even though it's already altered your perception of that person. Then at the end of the interview you decide you just didn't like him that much as a candidate, but the judgment is holistic so you never sorted out the racist contribution to that thought process. Instead, recognize the thought, acknowledge the unfairness of it, and try to correct your perception of the person based on that understanding.
Similarly in the subconscious reaction to attractive women thing, if you have a creepy thought occur to you unbidden, don't hate yourself for it, but maybe do try to be extra cautious about respecting that woman's consent.
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I tried to tell you all that Mattis isn't going to let that ridiculous ban go through. He's not that kind of person when it comes to the military.
First transgender, then immigrants, then hispanics, then blacks. That's how that would have ended up going if the DoD/SoD went ahead and popped it.
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On August 30 2017 10:12 ChristianS wrote:
I mean this gets into the more philosophical question of to what degree we are culpable for our subconscious reactions to things. I tend to think we're not.
Like, I think most (straight) guys have had pretty heinous subconscious reactions to seeing attractive women at some point in their lives, especially during adolescence. If teenagers acted on some of the thoughts that popped into their brains uninvited a good portion of them would spend >10 years in federal prison and wind up on a list for the rest of their lives. But generally they don't act on them! Which is what we want, no?
It's important to be aware of those thoughts, recognize where they come from, and try to be careful not to act them out though. In the racism case you can easily discriminate without realizing you're doing it, especially when a lot of people's response to having a "racist" thought is to pretend they didn't think it because they don't want to be racist. So you might wind up interviewing a black candidate for a job, thinking "what if he's a criminal" but then pretending you didn't think it, even though it's already altered your perception of that person. Then at the end of the interview you decide you just didn't like him that much as a candidate, but the judgment is holistic so you never sorted out the racist contribution to that thought process. Instead, recognize the thought, acknowledge the unfairness of it, and try to correct your perception of the person based on that understanding.
Similarly in the subconscious reaction to attractive women thing, if you have a creepy thought occur to you unbidden, don't hate yourself for it, but maybe do try to be extra cautious about respecting that woman's consent.
That'd mean though that it's okay to be racist, as long as you don't discriminate. If i understand you correctly?
edit: but i do wanna come back to that:
On new years eve 2015, a massive clusterfuck of sexual assault mainly done by north africans happened in cologne and other cities in germany.
In 2016, police had a sharp eye on those people and broke up groups bigger than a couple of dozens. Almost nothing happened.
They got shunted by politicians (at least from some) - for being racist/racial profiling (Racial profiling because they targeted north africans, and racist because in "police speak" they called them Nafris, as an abbreviation)
Was that actual racism?
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I could ascribe that to the boogeyman effect. The existence of a gay or Muslim is so terrifying they form inherent strong aversions to it.
It's normal human psychology to fear outgroups and to trust ingroups. People inherently have a basal "fear" response to seeing a face they're not accustomed to because it's strange territory for the brain (we like our comfort zone). This could be strongly reinforced in areas that almost never see people with different skin pigmentation or deal with behaviors that strongly deviate from theirs.
I'm largely just spit balling here though.
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Actually, I'm curious now. There was an incident in my country around the start of this year in which somebody drove a car into a bunch of people. Did anybody overseas hear about it?
link
Possibly the reason why attacks like this get linked to Islamic terrorism in people's minds is that the other ones don't necessarily make the news. If a bunch of people have heard about this then that would shoot a hole in that theory.
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On August 30 2017 10:26 Aquanim wrote:Actually, I'm curious now. There was an incident in my country around the start of this year in which somebody drove a car into a bunch of people. Did anybody overseas hear about it? linkPossibly the reason why attacks like this get linked to Islamic terrorism in people's minds is that the other ones don't necessarily make the news. If a bunch of people have heard about this then that would shoot a hole in that theory.
Of course it was a Holden Commodore. Sorry, couldn't resist.
It actually made news (including biggest newspaper) in germany, but it was said at the time that this doesn't qualify as terrorism.
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On August 30 2017 10:18 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2017 10:12 ChristianS wrote:
I mean this gets into the more philosophical question of to what degree we are culpable for our subconscious reactions to things. I tend to think we're not.
Like, I think most (straight) guys have had pretty heinous subconscious reactions to seeing attractive women at some point in their lives, especially during adolescence. If teenagers acted on some of the thoughts that popped into their brains uninvited a good portion of them would spend >10 years in federal prison and wind up on a list for the rest of their lives. But generally they don't act on them! Which is what we want, no?
It's important to be aware of those thoughts, recognize where they come from, and try to be careful not to act them out though. In the racism case you can easily discriminate without realizing you're doing it, especially when a lot of people's response to having a "racist" thought is to pretend they didn't think it because they don't want to be racist. So you might wind up interviewing a black candidate for a job, thinking "what if he's a criminal" but then pretending you didn't think it, even though it's already altered your perception of that person. Then at the end of the interview you decide you just didn't like him that much as a candidate, but the judgment is holistic so you never sorted out the racist contribution to that thought process. Instead, recognize the thought, acknowledge the unfairness of it, and try to correct your perception of the person based on that understanding.
Similarly in the subconscious reaction to attractive women thing, if you have a creepy thought occur to you unbidden, don't hate yourself for it, but maybe do try to be extra cautious about respecting that woman's consent. That'd mean though that it's okay to be racist, as long as you don't discriminate. If i understand you correctly?
Not sure what "be racist" means here, but if it means to have subconscious biases, sure! But an important part of that is the fact that your subconscious biases are part of who you are, but you don't really control them, at least not directly. So you recognize consciously that it's wrong to see someone black and think "criminal" even though that's what your subconscious did.
If "be racist" is closer to mozoku's definition of an earnestly held belief in the superiority of one race over another, things get weirder. A certain kind of extreme utilitarian might argue that as long as the racist doesn't act in a way that harms someone there's nothing wrong with it, but I'm inclined to doubt it's possible to hold a belief like that and not act on it in some way. So in that sense it's not okay to "be racist" even if you try not to discriminate.
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On August 30 2017 10:28 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2017 10:18 m4ini wrote:On August 30 2017 10:12 ChristianS wrote:
I mean this gets into the more philosophical question of to what degree we are culpable for our subconscious reactions to things. I tend to think we're not.
Like, I think most (straight) guys have had pretty heinous subconscious reactions to seeing attractive women at some point in their lives, especially during adolescence. If teenagers acted on some of the thoughts that popped into their brains uninvited a good portion of them would spend >10 years in federal prison and wind up on a list for the rest of their lives. But generally they don't act on them! Which is what we want, no?
It's important to be aware of those thoughts, recognize where they come from, and try to be careful not to act them out though. In the racism case you can easily discriminate without realizing you're doing it, especially when a lot of people's response to having a "racist" thought is to pretend they didn't think it because they don't want to be racist. So you might wind up interviewing a black candidate for a job, thinking "what if he's a criminal" but then pretending you didn't think it, even though it's already altered your perception of that person. Then at the end of the interview you decide you just didn't like him that much as a candidate, but the judgment is holistic so you never sorted out the racist contribution to that thought process. Instead, recognize the thought, acknowledge the unfairness of it, and try to correct your perception of the person based on that understanding.
Similarly in the subconscious reaction to attractive women thing, if you have a creepy thought occur to you unbidden, don't hate yourself for it, but maybe do try to be extra cautious about respecting that woman's consent. That'd mean though that it's okay to be racist, as long as you don't discriminate. If i understand you correctly? Not sure what "be racist" means here, but if it means to have subconscious biases, sure! But an important part of that is the fact that your subconscious biases are part of who you are, but you don't really control them, at least not directly. So you recognize consciously that it's wrong to see someone black and think "criminal" even though that's what your subconscious did. If "be racist" is closer to mozoku's definition of an earnestly held belief in the superiority of one race over another, things get weirder. A certain kind of extreme utilitarian might argue that as long as the racist doesn't act in a way that harms someone there's nothing wrong with it, but I'm inclined to doubt it's possible to hold a belief like that and not act on it in some way. So in that sense it's not okay to "be racist" even if you try not to discriminate.
The problem is that i'm trying to get a definition on "racism", so i'm not entirely sure what i'm supposed to mean by "be racist".
To me, racism is simply put, active discrimination based on the view that ethnicity inherently makes you a different (superior) person. Mainly because i wouldn't be able to say what else it could be. Which also falls in line with the "okay to be a racist, as long as you don't act on it".
edit: to be clear, i don't consider myself racist, even if i have some subconscious biases. I feel like half these discussions are fruitless because there's no baseline as to what even is racism.
It's like with gays (or since current situation, trans/military). It's (to me) okay with not being cool with gays, i don't care what you think about them (footnote, i'm cool with them). It's getting problematic once you start discriminating them by either denying them service, or making them "different" before the law, as in marriage and stuff like that.
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On August 30 2017 10:26 Aquanim wrote:Actually, I'm curious now. There was an incident in my country around the start of this year in which somebody drove a car into a bunch of people. Did anybody overseas hear about it? linkPossibly the reason why attacks like this get linked to Islamic terrorism in people's minds is that the other ones don't necessarily make the news. If a bunch of people have heard about this then that would shoot a hole in that theory.
I guess it's because it's Australia? The US has a bunch of shootings every now and then that don't get a ton of attention internationally if their not terrorist related. I'd think though if one of them injured 30 people it would get a bit of attention. In the US it's usually like 4 or 5 dead maybe a bit more but usually not that many injured. We get some workplace violence incidents that get ignored similarly.
US has a lot of mass shootings but they don't get covered very much unless their linked to terrorists and/or white supremecists
on a quick google search I found this example from US that I don't think was covered very heavily this year.
https://www.abqjournal.com/1018851/death-toll-now-5-in-northern-nm-shooting-spree.html
but they happen somewhat often in the US and usually don't have that many injured
website I found that has newslinks
https://www.massshootingtracker.org/data
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Acting on your racist thought is difficult to assess too, though. Because inaction can also say a lot about you.
If you vote for a person that keeps certain discriminatory institutions in place, but is generally has a better platform on health care and infrastructure, are you racist for voting for the person? What if you abstain from voting, but he won? How would you be classified if you don't have discriminatory beliefs but are put in the same scenario's?
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On August 30 2017 10:31 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2017 10:28 ChristianS wrote:On August 30 2017 10:18 m4ini wrote:On August 30 2017 10:12 ChristianS wrote:
I mean this gets into the more philosophical question of to what degree we are culpable for our subconscious reactions to things. I tend to think we're not.
Like, I think most (straight) guys have had pretty heinous subconscious reactions to seeing attractive women at some point in their lives, especially during adolescence. If teenagers acted on some of the thoughts that popped into their brains uninvited a good portion of them would spend >10 years in federal prison and wind up on a list for the rest of their lives. But generally they don't act on them! Which is what we want, no?
It's important to be aware of those thoughts, recognize where they come from, and try to be careful not to act them out though. In the racism case you can easily discriminate without realizing you're doing it, especially when a lot of people's response to having a "racist" thought is to pretend they didn't think it because they don't want to be racist. So you might wind up interviewing a black candidate for a job, thinking "what if he's a criminal" but then pretending you didn't think it, even though it's already altered your perception of that person. Then at the end of the interview you decide you just didn't like him that much as a candidate, but the judgment is holistic so you never sorted out the racist contribution to that thought process. Instead, recognize the thought, acknowledge the unfairness of it, and try to correct your perception of the person based on that understanding.
Similarly in the subconscious reaction to attractive women thing, if you have a creepy thought occur to you unbidden, don't hate yourself for it, but maybe do try to be extra cautious about respecting that woman's consent. That'd mean though that it's okay to be racist, as long as you don't discriminate. If i understand you correctly? Not sure what "be racist" means here, but if it means to have subconscious biases, sure! But an important part of that is the fact that your subconscious biases are part of who you are, but you don't really control them, at least not directly. So you recognize consciously that it's wrong to see someone black and think "criminal" even though that's what your subconscious did. If "be racist" is closer to mozoku's definition of an earnestly held belief in the superiority of one race over another, things get weirder. A certain kind of extreme utilitarian might argue that as long as the racist doesn't act in a way that harms someone there's nothing wrong with it, but I'm inclined to doubt it's possible to hold a belief like that and not act on it in some way. So in that sense it's not okay to "be racist" even if you try not to discriminate. The problem is that i'm trying to get a definition on "racism", so i'm not entirely sure what i'm supposed to mean by "be racist". To me, racism is simply put, active discrimination based on the view that ethnicity inherently makes you a different (superior) person.
There's either no definition of racism, or infinite definitions of racism depending on what you want from it. If you just need an operational definition, you can choose any of several. But a lot of people seem to think there's THE definition of racism out there and they just need to find the common definition to how everyone in the world uses it. That's not how language works; different people use the word to mean different things.
The other common phenomenon is to use this as a semantic proxy for the discussion of what people should or shouldn't believe/do with regards to race. In that case racism is really defined as the set of all beliefs and behaviors wrt race that people shouldn't believe/do, and the conversation should focus on what we should believe/do wrt race. I think it's easier to have the discussion in those terms than to try to have it in semantic terms.
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nvm. already covered.
regarding the car thing I'd say obviously your personal feelings are going to be something. So it doesn't matter how you feel in my opinion initially but as long as you don't start blaming it on terrorists before any stats come in I don't really think you qualify as being racist in any meaningful way that it's even worth discussing. Now we could have an entirely different discussion on whether that conclusion is valid and the effect that news coverage makes and yada yada yada but that's something else.
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Well i personally think as i said, there is and can't actually be a complete definition of racism. The problem with that is, if we were to have a discussion where "racism is what you make of it" is the baseline, we end up where we usually end up. Everybody disagrees with everything for the most part, and nobody gets anywhere - it's just a vicious circle.
I personally think the easy thing to do is simply to consider actual racism as random acts of discrimination (landlords, employers etc) based on skincolor (edit: or promoting them!). Because (i think) everyone here would agree that this simply isn't acceptable and should be gotten rid off, since that's actually a problem in the US.
After those "big things that have an actual impact on peoples livelyhood" are gone, people can start focusing on perceived racism in jokes and stuff.
edit
We in germany say "Man zäumt das Pferd nicht von hinten auf". You don't saddle a horse from the rear. Don't know if that idiom actually exists in the US, it basically means that you shouldn't attack an issue from the wrong end. My personal belief is that this is what happens here on a general basis.
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On August 30 2017 09:44 m4ini wrote:
I'll just throw in a question.
Am i racist because the first thought after seeing a truck running into a shopping mile, knife attacks etc is "not again (islamic terror)"?
That's genuinely something i wonder, because it certainly is something that i do.
I do it too, because frankly at this point it's so regularized it's hard to think otherwise.
Though my question is, does it matter? Is it such a virtue to never be racist, a term without legal standing that suffers from a ridiculous scope of use and no desire for strict definition, when it's so overused that it's almost a parody of itself? I can't say I feel that it is.
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On August 30 2017 10:59 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2017 09:44 m4ini wrote:
I'll just throw in a question.
Am i racist because the first thought after seeing a truck running into a shopping mile, knife attacks etc is "not again (islamic terror)"?
That's genuinely something i wonder, because it certainly is something that i do. I do it too, because frankly at this point it's so regularized it's hard to think otherwise. Though my question is, does it matter? Is it such a virtue to never be racist, a term without legal standing that suffers from a ridiculous scope of use and no desire for strict definition, when it's so overused that it's almost a parody of itself? I can't say I feel that it is.
There is merit to being self aware and critical enough to correct yourself when you are racist. If the definition evolves, our personal goals should as well.
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How is it racist to assume it is an Islamic terrorist. First of all you haven't even see the person, so it isn't like you saw an Arab and assumed Islamic terrorist. Secondly Islam is an ideology not a race. And at this point the percentage of terrorist attacks within recent times that are related to Islamic extremism has to be really high. I have no idea on actual numbers but I imagine it is quite high, which further justifies assuming that when a terrorist act does occur that the perp is a muslim extremist.
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On August 30 2017 11:14 Kickstart wrote:
How is it racist to assume it is an Islamic terrorist. First of all you haven't even see the person, so it isn't like you saw an Arab and assumed Islamic terrorist. Secondly Islam is an ideology not a race. And at this point the percentage of terrorist attacks within recent times that are related to Islamic extremism has to be really high. I have no idea on actual numbers but I imagine it is quite high, which further justifies assuming that when a terrorist act does occur that the perp is a muslim extremist.
Did you read the discussion? Like at all? It's like 2 pages on all the topic and everything you just asked is addressed.
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On August 30 2017 11:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2017 11:14 Kickstart wrote:
How is it racist to assume it is an Islamic terrorist. First of all you haven't even see the person, so it isn't like you saw an Arab and assumed Islamic terrorist. Secondly Islam is an ideology not a race. And at this point the percentage of terrorist attacks within recent times that are related to Islamic extremism has to be really high. I have no idea on actual numbers but I imagine it is quite high, which further justifies assuming that when a terrorist act does occur that the perp is a muslim extremist. Did you read the discussion like at all? Like at all?
His question was "Am I racist for thinking Islamic terrorist after truck drives into crowd/knife attack/ whatever terroristic act". I think what I said is a fairly straightforward response to that question.
Even if it is a bias in a way, it wouldn't be an unjustified or incorrect one. In fact, chances are you would probably be correct in making that assumption.
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