US Politics Mega-thread - Page 8394

On August 14 2017 07:20 Plansix wrote:

I am going to tell you, the KKK and Nazi's were not problems before then either. It as only after we had a black president that they made a comeback in a big way. Maybe one party being desperate to defeat the black president might have lead to them courting a lot of voters that might be super racist. And then those voters became the base for the dude that claimed the black president was born in Kenya.

On August 14 2017 07:21 Jockmcplop wrote:


There was a huge problem with white supremacists in the 90s.

On August 14 2017 07:05 ChristianS wrote:

It's not like sovereign citizens, actually. The podcast "99% Invisible" did an episode about this recently, but I'll summarize as best I can.

Squatters typically move into city buildings that are dilapidated and/or have been given up by their owners. In the case of NYC squatters on the lower east side, there were a lot of areas that just got abandoned in the 60's and 70's – the government closed down infrastructure to the area, landlords forfeited the property to the government rather than keep paying property taxes. So squatters moved in and just started fixing the places up themselves – which didn't bother the city at first, but then later the land started to become valuable again in the 80's and the city wanted to retake it.

So the city starts trying to crack down on squatting and homeless encampments, and kick people out of places they've lived for years. Protests and riots ensue. The squatters build a legal case for being rightful owners of the land and a judge gives them an injunction against being evicted until the case is settled, but the city ignores the injunction and starts evicting people anyway, so people take to barricading doors and windows when police come by. They have "Eviction watch lists" where if police come to evict you, you block them out and call people on the list, and they'll come to help stop the police from evicting you. As the police militarize their response to the squatters, the squatters' tactics become more violent as well – pouring tar on the street that officers would have to walk through, dumping garbage and buckets of urine out windows onto police coming to evict them.

My point in summarizing all this is that I don't see how you can look at something like squatters fighting with the police, juxtapose that with Nazis killing counter-protesters, and think there's any kind of equivalence there. I think squatters' rights are a difficult issue, and I don't really know if they're 100% justified in fighting with the police the way they do, but there's at least an argument for it. Neo-Nazis are just obviously the worst.

On August 14 2017 07:24 Plansix wrote:

I was a teenager in the 1990s, but I don't remember the dumb ass debate about how the left is just as bad or worse? I missed that, but I might have not been paying attention.

On August 14 2017 07:23 Kickboxer wrote:
You're right, it's illegal. We already have mechanisms in place that prevent the premeditated, malicious use of vocal chords to create immediate chaos and, potentially, harm.

That is in no way related to the free expression and exchange of ideas. Like I said, providing, let's say, that you and I disagree radically, you can either reason with me, which means both of us need to be speaking 100% our own truth, unmitigated and not-PC-regulated, and then, somehow, we decide to begrudgingly coexist somewhere in the middle, (perhaps, in the case of the most hardline extremists, in segregated communities if that's what it takes, we can even call them "reservations" for lulz, so put Duke and his people in a redneck Orc camp and the rabid feminists into an all-female commune where they can devour each other), while normal people like you and me live together, or you can label me a "pernicious element" and try to eradicate me.

What you can't do is force me to change my mind. That hardly even works in North Korea, and believe me, they know how to enforce it.

On August 14 2017 07:26 Jockmcplop wrote:


I may have missed the beginning of this conversation, but all I'm saying is that all the militia type activity we are seeing now had a huge peak in the 90s (ie Ruby Ridge, Oklahoma etc.)

On August 14 2017 07:26 Jockmcplop wrote:


I may have missed the beginning of this conversation, but all I'm saying is that all the militia type activity we are seeing now had a huge peak in the 90s (ie Ruby Ridge, Oklahoma etc.)

On August 14 2017 07:32 Plansix wrote:

Of course. And they were dealt with, sometimes not successfully. But there was no debate about it. Their political views were not welcome in the discourse. They were outsiders who believed things that are counter America values, so they were not welcome by anyone in the political system. That has changed in recent years. And I can't help but think that electing the first black president of the United States has a big part to play in why racist on the fringe started to re-enter the political discourse. Partly out of fear of a changing nation, but also because the Republican's were so desperate for supporters, they didn't look to hard. All start of the cycle started by Nixon and the southern strategy, which the Republicans return to after each crippling defeat.

On August 14 2017 07:34 Kickboxer wrote:
You're encouraging genocide right now.

Genocide over people you have, by self-determination, labelled "Nazis", some of whom are, perhaps, actual proto-nazis-by-creed, and some of whom are most definitely not. In any case it won't solve anything.

Genocide starts with the justification of violence for political reasons. That's literally where it starts. And if violence is never justified, as it absolutely should not be, then what you have left is words and reasoning, which are the most powerful tools of the human being. If these people are doing something illegal, you put them in jail. If they're wrong, you challenge them on a public platform and explain why they are being idiots.

Throwing rocks and assaulting people solves nothing. And no, this is not the pitchfork revolution of 18th century France, or WW2, which are precisely the fucking scenario we'd like to avoid, as a civilized society.

On August 14 2017 07:34 Kickboxer wrote:
You're encouraging genocide right now.

Genocide over people you have, by self-determination, labelled "Nazis", some of whom are, perhaps, actual proto-nazis-by-creed, and some of whom are most definitely not. In any case it won't solve anything.

Genocide starts with the justification of violence for political reasons. That's literally where it starts. And if violence is never justified, as it absolutely should not be, then what you have left is words and reasoning, which are the most powerful tools of the human being. If these people are doing something illegal, you put them in jail. If they're wrong, you challenge them on a public platform and explain why they are being idiots.

Throwing rocks and assaulting people solves nothing. And no, this is not the pitchfork revolution of 18th century France, or WW2, which are precisely the fucking scenario we'd like to avoid, as a civilized society.

On August 14 2017 07:15 Kickboxer wrote:
Funny thing is, while the US president was black, and even before when the pres was a warmongering de-facto idiot big oil right winger, there was minimal problems with KKK and the "nazis" (no, even these idiots are still not Nazis. Those lived in Germany in the 1930s and 40s. These are american rednecks who culturally approriated the nazi ideology and iconography, which, come to think of it, is really funny)

Now, on the other hand, that you've elected an utter fart, because your other option was too busy promoting PR drivel like gender relativity and "diversity" and sucking the corporate cock for moneys while thinking having a vagina is actual political capital, instead of focusing on sane policy, there's "nazis" all over the streets.

On August 14 2017 07:57 Kickboxer wrote:
You're constructing your own universe. "Shutting down nazis" is a perfectly fine and practical call for eventual genocide. It has all the necessary attributes - "othering", the identification of an enemy, and, above all, the justification of violence for political purposes. Let's wait and see if any alt-righters get murdered in the coming 3 months.

Again, a fairly simple notion that is rather difficult to dispute: Either you reason with people, through discourse, in order to correct the flaws in their - or perhaps your own - thinking, which you accomplish through the exchange of words, or you basically go to war with them.

You can go to war with the nazis in your country if you wish, but I'm absolutely sure you will grow to regret that, because I suspect, as a small and well armed as well as corporately supported minority, they will gladly fight back.

On August 14 2017 08:06 Kickboxer wrote:
I'm curious, do you view Islam or Communism the same way? Is it ok to go to war against Islam, and if not, why?

Do you think those ideologies are less harmless when excercised in their extreme form?

As a woman, hypothetically let's say, would you rather live in Hitler's Germany or Saudi Arabia? What about the Reich or Stalin's Russia, if you were a flamboyant free-thinking artist, perhaps?

Is it ok to punch a politically engaged marxist?