|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On July 14 2017 00:33 IyMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2017 00:25 mozoku wrote:On July 14 2017 00:17 KwarK wrote:On July 14 2017 00:12 mozoku wrote:On July 14 2017 00:07 KwarK wrote:
We don't argue over black on black crime because there isn't an opposing side to argue against. There isn't anyone insisting that blacks should work harder to get those numbers up etc. With police brutality you have two sides, those who argue that it is acceptable and those that argue that it is not. And right now the former group are winning, with the party currently in office dismissing accountability programs as a "war on police" and doing all they can to reinforce the status quo. Why should public policy discussions be focused on issues where there are opposing sides, as opposed to issues that result in the greatest utility? If Democrats really wanted to help AA community, they would start programs with community leaders to encourage constructive behavior and encourage anti-violence programs... Or at least put serious research into how those goals can be accomplished. Instead they argue pointlessly on high-visibility, low-income issues that will secure them votes. They don't want to touch the difficult subjects that would actually help bring about change. There already are those kind of programs. How extensive are they though? How much resources is put into them compared to, say, BLM? I'm skeptical of the Left's commitment to such programs when a large wing of the party argues that it's ethnocentric and racist for Whites to be "educating" blacks on their behavior. Identity politics, the current dominant Democratic electoral strategy, requires disparate identities throughout races as well... which would seem to conflict with their supposed goal of AA cultural assimilation in these programs. What makes you skeptical? Do you have numbers or quotes or is it just a gut feeling?
Apart from what I edited into my previous post, visibility and resources are usually highly correlated. The low visibility of these programs leads me to believe that the investment is low.
I'll admit I don't have studies or hard numbers, and will gladly correct my position if proven wrong.
That's a...pretty dumb view of history you have there.
"Asia" is not a culture any more than "Africa" is. And Asia as a whole had very long periods of war, conquest and violence across the thousands of cultures that spanned even more years, and mostly reached some forms of stability and nationhood because there were clear winners over significant periods of time.
Same as Europe, really.
Both continents were just "fortunate" enough to have their periods of war and conquest contained within their convenient continental labels. And, of course, to have reached some level of nationhood, stability and nationhood before other parts of the world reached them.
(Which also completely ignores the regions in Asia that were conquered by European nations)
You completely ignored my point and made a veiled accusation of ignorance/ethnocentrism. I'm actually extremely familiar with Asian history, but it wasn't relevant to my point.
East Asia culture is heavily influenced by Confucianism, which places social value on the characteristics I listed: "culture of work ethic, family values, nonviolence within communities, social stability." That is entirely noncontroversial, and based on historical flows of culture and information. Furthermore, the discussion is based on the present-day, where East Asia usually refers to Korea, Japan, and China. I'm not talking about hundreds of cultures from history.
If you had read carefully, you'd have noticed I never listed anything that says that East Asians are any less violent between states than Europeans. So next time please read what I said instead of assuming my ignorance on an off-topic point and giving me a lecture about it.
|
United States41470 Posts
The problem with privileged groups trying to educate non privileged groups on how to resolve issues is that they don't deal with the same issues because privilege. Then the privileged groups end up getting kinda racist about it and insist that the world treats everyone equally and that different outcomes result because non privileged groups just generally suck.
It's the whole traffic stop problem. Whenever a black guy gets shot some white guys will chime in and say "Yeah but he did it wrong, I've been in a traffic stop, I showed the cop my gun, we had a 10 minute talk about our favourite guns, met up that weekend to do some target shooting, and now I'm dating his daughter. Clearly the black guy did something wrong to get shot." And then each time a black guy does exactly what the white guy previously said was the correct way to not get shot the goalposts move because the goalposts don't represent a real solution to the problem, they represent a psychological attempt for the white guy to reconcile his reality of how traffic stops go with the evidence that people keep getting shot.
I'm fine with white folks being white saviours. But first they should actually listen to the problems that the black community are expressing that they deal with. If it's all just "no, you don't experience X, here, let me tell you more about your own lives from my perspective", that's not helpful.
|
OK, so I'm technically white by the governmental definition due to not maintaining tribal affiliation (eastern band Cherokee). I've not suffered through the blatant use of governmental power to keep my status low because I never lived on a reservation.
That said, I did get the joyful childhood of having white children ask me "so which of your parents was the nigger?" in elementary school. At one point I tried rubbing white sand into my skin because I wanted so desperately to be white. Then after 9/11 was called "Osama" for years because people in KY cannot tell the difference between arabs and native Americans.
I still worry about whether or not I'll be discriminated against during a job interview due to having experienced how people thought before they were taught to hold I'm their thoughts. I stay out of the sun because I'm fairly sure that I look less obviously white as I tan.
My point is that it is hard for people to conceptualize that discrimination that blatant exists without experiencing it. I'm pretty sure my childhood was nothing compared to most black people's, and I'm sure it was nothing compared to Cherokee on reservations.
|
On July 14 2017 00:48 Nevuk wrote:
OK, so I'm technically white by the governmental definition due to not maintaining tribal affiliation (eastern band Cherokee). I've not suffered through the blatant use of governmental power to keep my status low because I never lived on a reservation.
That said, I did get the joyful childhood of having white children ask me "so which of your parents was the nigger?" in elementary school. At one point I tried rubbing white sand into my skin because I wanted so desperately to be white. Then after 9/11 was called "Osama" for years because people in KY cannot tell the difference between arabs and native Americans.
I still worry about whether or not I'll be discriminated against during a job interview due to having experienced how people thought before they were taught to hold I'm their thoughts. I stay out of the sun because I'm fairly sure that I look less obviously white as I tan.
My point is that it is hard for people to conceptualize that discrimination that blatant exists without experiencing it. I'm pretty sure my childhood was nothing compared to most black people's, and I'm sure it was nothing compared to Cherokee on reservations.
And it might not be comparable to a white kid's either.
People continue to forget the reason this topic is being discussed.
1) Coming to terms with your privilige (specifically white privilege)
2) The systemic discrimination against POC (blacks specifically) in all institutions
3) A way to move forward without guilt tripping people and instead trying to help them, help the non privilege in a meaniningful way
4) That DJT knew about those emails
|
|
|
On July 14 2017 00:48 Nevuk wrote:
OK, so I'm technically white by the governmental definition due to not maintaining tribal affiliation (eastern band Cherokee). I've not suffered through the blatant use of governmental power to keep my status low because I never lived on a reservation.
That said, I did get the joyful childhood of having white children ask me "so which of your parents was the nigger?" in elementary school. At one point I tried rubbing white sand into my skin because I wanted so desperately to be white. Then after 9/11 was called "Osama" for years because people in KY cannot tell the difference between arabs and native Americans.
I still worry about whether or not I'll be discriminated against during a job interview due to having experienced how people thought before they were taught to hold I'm their thoughts. I stay out of the sun because I'm fairly sure that I look less obviously white as I tan.
My point is that it is hard for people to conceptualize that discrimination that blatant exists without experiencing it. I'm pretty sure my childhood was nothing compared to most black people's, and I'm sure it was nothing compared to Cherokee on reservations.
It also just hugely depends on area. Even within a country or even within a state.
As an example, when I lived in West Virginia, I had a black friend who hated white people perhaps more than anything. I distinctly remember a time when me and another friend of mine struggled immensely to get him to agree to come outside to hang out. The only way we ended up getting him out of the house was because we told him there were some white kids we wanted to go beat up.
But in Oregon, I have had no such experiences. I encountered a bit of racism when I was in pre-college school, but I also lived in an extremely affluent area (yay for living in my aunt's basement lol), so if anything, people were super un-racist. There were also rich racist people who were skeptical of colored Mohdoo walking down their street. But there was also an insane amount of very considerate people who, if anything, were extra nice and accommodating of me because they assumed I regularly have crosses burned in my front yard.
|
United States41117 Posts
|
How does he still have a sec clearance?
|
United States41117 Posts
|
On July 14 2017 00:36 KwarK wrote:
The problem with privileged groups trying to educate non privileged groups on how to resolve issues is that they don't deal with the same issues because privilege. Then the privileged groups end up getting kinda racist about it and insist that the world treats everyone equally and that different outcomes result because non privileged groups just generally suck.
It's the whole traffic stop problem. Whenever a black guy gets shot some white guys will chime in and say "Yeah but he did it wrong, I've been in a traffic stop, I showed the cop my gun, we had a 10 minute talk about our favourite guns, met up that weekend to do some target shooting, and now I'm dating his daughter. Clearly the black guy did something wrong to get shot." And then each time a black guy does exactly what the white guy previously said was the correct way to not get shot the goalposts move because the goalposts don't represent a real solution to the problem, they represent a psychological attempt for the white guy to reconcile his reality of how traffic stops go with the evidence that people keep getting shot.
I'm fine with white folks being white saviours. But first they should actually listen to the problems that the black community are expressing that they deal with. If it's all just "no, you don't experience X, here, let me tell you more about your own lives from my perspective", that's not helpful.
It doesn't have to be the privileged groups directly lecturing blacks though. The government can support AA community figures (who are familiar with the traffic light problem from a black perspective) to spread the message of doing well in school, staying around for your kids, etc. Figures who have come from poor, violent communities and raised their socioeconomic status.
As long as socioeconomically successful groups are choosing who to promote though, it's going to draw resistance from powerful factions on the left who reject any whiff of "white savior-ism" and want to promote "black culture" even to the AA's community's detriment.
Regardless, the fact that these sorts of thing are barely discussed on the left (if at all) and the vast majority of the party's energy/resources on race relations goes to high-visibility, low-impact issues like BLM, privilege, and microagressions just goes to show what their motives are. Again, I don't believe that every Democrat is secretly part of a conspiracy against AAs, but it's pretty easy for politicians to manipulate their bases in this sort of way. The Republicans obviously do the same thing, as the left-leaning TL community repeatedly points out.
|
Wonder what Michael Steele thinks of the Don Jr email? Does it help to corroborate this June 2016 portion of the dossier (if source D is one of the Agaralovs or someone close to them)? Some remarkable coincidences and timings involved with this Don Jr meeting.
![[image loading]](https://cdn01.theintercept.com/wp-uploads/sites/1/2017/07/Screen-Shot-2017-07-12-at-12.15.34-AM-1499815152.png)
[I]t was just three days after the June 9 meeting with Veselnitskaya in Trump Tower that Julian Assange, the WikiLeaks founder, first revealed that he had obtained what turned out to be emails hacked from the Democratic National Committee.
...
On Wednesday morning in Russia, Aras Agalarov claimed in a radio interview that he does not know Rob Goldstone.
If so, the elder Agalarov must have either a terrible memory or extremely poor vision, since a photograph posted on Facebook by Goldstone on June 16, 2013, shows that the publicist was seated right next his client, Agalarov’s son, and across the table from the oligarch himself, during a working dinner with Trump in Las Vegas, when the family secured the right to host the Miss Universe pageant.
...
If Aras Agalarov does need to be reminded of who Rob Goldstone is, he could also speak with his wife, Irina Agalarova, since she posted an Instagram photograph of herself “with Rob” at the venue for the pageant on November 6, 2013, three nights before the event.
theintercept.com
|
On July 14 2017 00:35 mozoku wrote:Show nested quote +That's a...pretty dumb view of history you have there.
"Asia" is not a culture any more than "Africa" is. And Asia as a whole had very long periods of war, conquest and violence across the thousands of cultures that spanned even more years, and mostly reached some forms of stability and nationhood because there were clear winners over significant periods of time.
Same as Europe, really.
Both continents were just "fortunate" enough to have their periods of war and conquest contained within their convenient continental labels. And, of course, to have reached some level of nationhood, stability and nationhood before other parts of the world reached them.
(Which also completely ignores the regions in Asia that were conquered by European nations) You completely ignored my point and made a veiled accusation of ignorance/ethnocentrism. I'm actually extremely familiar with Asian history, but it wasn't relevant to my point. East Asia culture is heavily influenced by Confucianism, which places social value on the characteristics I listed: "culture of work ethic, family values, nonviolence within communities, social stability." That is entirely noncontroversial, and based on historical flows of culture and information. Furthermore, the discussion is based on the present-day, where East Asia usually refers to Korea, Japan, and China. I'm not talking about hundreds of cultures from history. If you had read carefully, you'd have noticed I never listed anything that says that East Asians are any less violent between states than Europeans. So next time please read what I said instead of assuming my ignorance on an off-topic point and giving me a lecture about it.
Your point just sucks then.
North American culture is heavily influenced by Christian religion, which places social value on the same things. African-Americans are a part of North American culture. Therefore African-Americans are peaceful, QED or something.
I'd recommend not trying to broad-stroke the entirety of China, or Korea, or Japan, as a comparison point.
|
United States41117 Posts
|
Zurich15302 Posts
Who needs spy fiction. I love that Russia proves all stereotypes right again at having the best secret agencies in the world.
|
On July 14 2017 01:54 zatic wrote:
Who needs spy fiction. I love that Russia proves all stereotypes right again at having the best secret agencies in the world.
See, the thing about the 'best' secret agency is that you wont know they are the best because they don't get caught.
|
Still fucks the elderly, still fucks those with pre existing conditions, still fucks Medicaid, still relies on voodoo math = the bill is still fucked.
|
United States41117 Posts
|
On July 14 2017 02:07 On_Slaught wrote:Still fucks the elderly, still fucks those with pre existing conditions, still fucks Medicaid, still relies on voodoo math = the bill is still fucked.
if you were hoping that it would be better, than you are a much more hopeful person than i 
|
United States41117 Posts
|
On July 14 2017 03:09 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2017 02:07 On_Slaught wrote:Still fucks the elderly, still fucks those with pre existing conditions, still fucks Medicaid, still relies on voodoo math = the bill is still fucked. if you were hoping that it would be better, than you are a much more hopeful person than i
A better bill would cost money and would get killed by the tea party.
There is no healthcare bill that the Republicans can pass. both sides of the party want completely opposite things.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
