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On July 13 2017 02:11 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 01:56 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 01:35 Mohdoo wrote:On July 13 2017 01:31 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 01:26 Mohdoo wrote:On July 13 2017 01:18 xDaunt wrote:
Let's just presume for a moment that the Russians told the Trump campaign something about the Hillary emails during that June 9, 2016 meeting. What would they have said? More specifically, what might they have said that was outside of the sphere of public knowledge at the time? My memory is a little fuzzy, but I don't recall the Russians releasing any information about Hillary's emails. They only [arguably] released the DNC and Podesta emails. But let's further presume for a moment that the Russians told the Trump campaign that they had actually had all of Hillary's emails and even told Trump some of what was in there. Who's really compromised at this point? Hillary or Trump? I think it is fair to assume everything that came out of Wikileaks was at the very least indirectly related to Russia. I don't think that this can be presumed yet. Yeah, it's a possibility, but I think that it is also equally as likely that someone on the inside who was unaffiliated with Russia leaked the emails. This is particularly the case with the DNC server (Podesta seems more like a hacking job). And the part that really rubs me the wrong way with the DNC server leak is that the DNC still hasn't let the FBI do a forensic study of it. That fact alone speaks volumes. Podesta was a downright social engineering hacking job no two ways about it. If we know that Russia was trying to find ways to inject negative information about the DNC into American politics, most clearly through these meetings with Jr, I think we have a lot more reason to say it was Russia than anyone else. Intent, capability and even evidence of success have already been shown in one instance. I think it is strange to think Russia would have no interest in doing the things that you are saying are unknown at this point. Are you saying that if you had to bet, you would bet on Russia not being responsible? Or are you saying that you technically don't have reason to be certain of it? It feels like you are giving devil's advocate a little too much sway here. They already did a bunch and at the very least attempted to feed stuff to the Trump campaign. One of the world's best e-war powers not being involved in one of the more potent attacks against the DNC seems extremely unlikely. If I am getting a little too comfortable wearing a tinfoil hat: You could also wonder if China tried to impersonate Russian operatives once they realized Russia was already attacking the DNC. China should want Russia and the US getting along as poorly as possible while China continues to invest in Africa and beyond. As a side note: Am I correct in my belief that China directly benefits from US-Russia troubles? I don't at all doubt that Russia, China, and other foreign countries direct their intelligence services to gather adverse information about prominent Americans and American politicians. And I'm sure that they no bones about using illicit/illegal methods to do so. There are really two issues here. The first is who got the information. The second is, of those who got the information, who released it. There could have been multiple parties who did both. The issue is that Trump was offered information by a foreign nation and went "yes please".
Not really. If all you're looking for is a week's worth of headlines, that's the issue. If you're looking for something that sinks Trump, then you have to go deeper and get answers to the questions that I have been asking.
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United States41470 Posts
I see we're on "it happened but it wasn't a big deal that it happened".
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On July 13 2017 02:17 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 02:11 Gorsameth wrote:On July 13 2017 01:56 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 01:35 Mohdoo wrote:On July 13 2017 01:31 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 01:26 Mohdoo wrote:On July 13 2017 01:18 xDaunt wrote:
Let's just presume for a moment that the Russians told the Trump campaign something about the Hillary emails during that June 9, 2016 meeting. What would they have said? More specifically, what might they have said that was outside of the sphere of public knowledge at the time? My memory is a little fuzzy, but I don't recall the Russians releasing any information about Hillary's emails. They only [arguably] released the DNC and Podesta emails. But let's further presume for a moment that the Russians told the Trump campaign that they had actually had all of Hillary's emails and even told Trump some of what was in there. Who's really compromised at this point? Hillary or Trump? I think it is fair to assume everything that came out of Wikileaks was at the very least indirectly related to Russia. I don't think that this can be presumed yet. Yeah, it's a possibility, but I think that it is also equally as likely that someone on the inside who was unaffiliated with Russia leaked the emails. This is particularly the case with the DNC server (Podesta seems more like a hacking job). And the part that really rubs me the wrong way with the DNC server leak is that the DNC still hasn't let the FBI do a forensic study of it. That fact alone speaks volumes. Podesta was a downright social engineering hacking job no two ways about it. If we know that Russia was trying to find ways to inject negative information about the DNC into American politics, most clearly through these meetings with Jr, I think we have a lot more reason to say it was Russia than anyone else. Intent, capability and even evidence of success have already been shown in one instance. I think it is strange to think Russia would have no interest in doing the things that you are saying are unknown at this point. Are you saying that if you had to bet, you would bet on Russia not being responsible? Or are you saying that you technically don't have reason to be certain of it? It feels like you are giving devil's advocate a little too much sway here. They already did a bunch and at the very least attempted to feed stuff to the Trump campaign. One of the world's best e-war powers not being involved in one of the more potent attacks against the DNC seems extremely unlikely. If I am getting a little too comfortable wearing a tinfoil hat: You could also wonder if China tried to impersonate Russian operatives once they realized Russia was already attacking the DNC. China should want Russia and the US getting along as poorly as possible while China continues to invest in Africa and beyond. As a side note: Am I correct in my belief that China directly benefits from US-Russia troubles? I don't at all doubt that Russia, China, and other foreign countries direct their intelligence services to gather adverse information about prominent Americans and American politicians. And I'm sure that they no bones about using illicit/illegal methods to do so. There are really two issues here. The first is who got the information. The second is, of those who got the information, who released it. There could have been multiple parties who did both. The issue is that Trump was offered information by a foreign nation and went "yes please". Not really. If all you're looking for is a week's worth of headlines, that's the issue. If you're looking for something that sinks Trump, then you have to go deeper and get answers to the questions that I have been asking.
Deeper than Trump and his team actively undermining the democratic process by seeking help from a foreign nation - something strictly forbidden?
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The Daunt man is just doing his best to play up the angle that Hillary's campaign was so incompetent and/or the information in question was public enough that the exchange (or attempted exchange) did not implicate enough value to qualify as substantive collusion.
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On July 13 2017 02:26 farvacola wrote:
the Daunt man is just doing his best to play up the angle that Hillary's campaign was so incompetent and/or the information in question was public enough that the exchange (or attempted exchange) did not implicate enough value to qualify as substantive collusion.
Obviously a farce - the whole Hillary email charade occupied so much of the Republican's rhetoric, and people still parrot it like zombies, and not only did it have no substance to it, but it was information they got directly because of Russian hacking of the email server. Information they either solicited or were offered, and accepted, knowing its source.
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On July 13 2017 02:17 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 02:11 Gorsameth wrote:On July 13 2017 01:56 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 01:35 Mohdoo wrote:On July 13 2017 01:31 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 01:26 Mohdoo wrote:On July 13 2017 01:18 xDaunt wrote:
Let's just presume for a moment that the Russians told the Trump campaign something about the Hillary emails during that June 9, 2016 meeting. What would they have said? More specifically, what might they have said that was outside of the sphere of public knowledge at the time? My memory is a little fuzzy, but I don't recall the Russians releasing any information about Hillary's emails. They only [arguably] released the DNC and Podesta emails. But let's further presume for a moment that the Russians told the Trump campaign that they had actually had all of Hillary's emails and even told Trump some of what was in there. Who's really compromised at this point? Hillary or Trump? I think it is fair to assume everything that came out of Wikileaks was at the very least indirectly related to Russia. I don't think that this can be presumed yet. Yeah, it's a possibility, but I think that it is also equally as likely that someone on the inside who was unaffiliated with Russia leaked the emails. This is particularly the case with the DNC server (Podesta seems more like a hacking job). And the part that really rubs me the wrong way with the DNC server leak is that the DNC still hasn't let the FBI do a forensic study of it. That fact alone speaks volumes. Podesta was a downright social engineering hacking job no two ways about it. If we know that Russia was trying to find ways to inject negative information about the DNC into American politics, most clearly through these meetings with Jr, I think we have a lot more reason to say it was Russia than anyone else. Intent, capability and even evidence of success have already been shown in one instance. I think it is strange to think Russia would have no interest in doing the things that you are saying are unknown at this point. Are you saying that if you had to bet, you would bet on Russia not being responsible? Or are you saying that you technically don't have reason to be certain of it? It feels like you are giving devil's advocate a little too much sway here. They already did a bunch and at the very least attempted to feed stuff to the Trump campaign. One of the world's best e-war powers not being involved in one of the more potent attacks against the DNC seems extremely unlikely. If I am getting a little too comfortable wearing a tinfoil hat: You could also wonder if China tried to impersonate Russian operatives once they realized Russia was already attacking the DNC. China should want Russia and the US getting along as poorly as possible while China continues to invest in Africa and beyond. As a side note: Am I correct in my belief that China directly benefits from US-Russia troubles? I don't at all doubt that Russia, China, and other foreign countries direct their intelligence services to gather adverse information about prominent Americans and American politicians. And I'm sure that they no bones about using illicit/illegal methods to do so. There are really two issues here. The first is who got the information. The second is, of those who got the information, who released it. There could have been multiple parties who did both. The issue is that Trump was offered information by a foreign nation and went "yes please". Not really. If all you're looking for is a week's worth of headlines, that's the issue. If you're looking for something that sinks Trump, then you have to go deeper and get answers to the questions that I have been asking.
I think deep down all but the conspiracy nuts know this is a media cycle win on campaign collusion and nothing more. Trump Jr met with someone believed to have oppo from a rival government source, got burned when she was just a random Russia lawyer lobbying for legislation, then double burned by no pre-written message discipline if and when this story got out. The historically-unprecedented nuts need to read up on Clinton & the Chinese campaign donations. The more grounded pundits can argue this will turn more Democrats into vocal supporters of impeachment proceedings, and they may be right. The usual suspects will go "Treason" and "this explains everything!" And shoot themselves in the foot once again.
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United States41470 Posts
Danglars, every time one of these happens you retreat and retrench. You're now at the point where you're conceding that it's "campaign collusion, and nothing more". That's a hell of a lot more than you previously admitted to. You're a long way over your previous "nothing mores" and yet you never seem to reach "something more".
I think it's pretty fair to say at this point that there isn't anything that would come to light that you wouldn't qualify in those terms. If it emerges that an offer of sanctions relief for help in the campaign had been made you'll just be saying "it's treason, and nothing more".
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Only in 2017 would a republican excuse or explain away Don Kr's emails.
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On July 13 2017 02:23 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 02:17 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 02:11 Gorsameth wrote:On July 13 2017 01:56 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 01:35 Mohdoo wrote:On July 13 2017 01:31 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 01:26 Mohdoo wrote:On July 13 2017 01:18 xDaunt wrote:
Let's just presume for a moment that the Russians told the Trump campaign something about the Hillary emails during that June 9, 2016 meeting. What would they have said? More specifically, what might they have said that was outside of the sphere of public knowledge at the time? My memory is a little fuzzy, but I don't recall the Russians releasing any information about Hillary's emails. They only [arguably] released the DNC and Podesta emails. But let's further presume for a moment that the Russians told the Trump campaign that they had actually had all of Hillary's emails and even told Trump some of what was in there. Who's really compromised at this point? Hillary or Trump? I think it is fair to assume everything that came out of Wikileaks was at the very least indirectly related to Russia. I don't think that this can be presumed yet. Yeah, it's a possibility, but I think that it is also equally as likely that someone on the inside who was unaffiliated with Russia leaked the emails. This is particularly the case with the DNC server (Podesta seems more like a hacking job). And the part that really rubs me the wrong way with the DNC server leak is that the DNC still hasn't let the FBI do a forensic study of it. That fact alone speaks volumes. Podesta was a downright social engineering hacking job no two ways about it. If we know that Russia was trying to find ways to inject negative information about the DNC into American politics, most clearly through these meetings with Jr, I think we have a lot more reason to say it was Russia than anyone else. Intent, capability and even evidence of success have already been shown in one instance. I think it is strange to think Russia would have no interest in doing the things that you are saying are unknown at this point. Are you saying that if you had to bet, you would bet on Russia not being responsible? Or are you saying that you technically don't have reason to be certain of it? It feels like you are giving devil's advocate a little too much sway here. They already did a bunch and at the very least attempted to feed stuff to the Trump campaign. One of the world's best e-war powers not being involved in one of the more potent attacks against the DNC seems extremely unlikely. If I am getting a little too comfortable wearing a tinfoil hat: You could also wonder if China tried to impersonate Russian operatives once they realized Russia was already attacking the DNC. China should want Russia and the US getting along as poorly as possible while China continues to invest in Africa and beyond. As a side note: Am I correct in my belief that China directly benefits from US-Russia troubles? I don't at all doubt that Russia, China, and other foreign countries direct their intelligence services to gather adverse information about prominent Americans and American politicians. And I'm sure that they no bones about using illicit/illegal methods to do so. There are really two issues here. The first is who got the information. The second is, of those who got the information, who released it. There could have been multiple parties who did both. The issue is that Trump was offered information by a foreign nation and went "yes please". Not really. If all you're looking for is a week's worth of headlines, that's the issue. If you're looking for something that sinks Trump, then you have to go deeper and get answers to the questions that I have been asking. Deeper than Trump and his team actively undermining the democratic process by seeking help from a foreign nation - something strictly forbidden?
Like I've asked before, what specifically did Trump and his campaign do that was illegal? What information was solicited, received, and used? What role did his campaign have in the acquisition and dissemination of that information? Y'all need to stop loosely throwing around terms like "collusion" and "conspiracy" without understanding what they actually mean, and in particular, how they fit into codified terms of illegal conduct.
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On July 13 2017 02:26 farvacola wrote:
The Daunt man is just doing his best to play up the angle that Hillary's campaign was so incompetent and/or the information in question was public enough that the exchange (or attempted exchange) did not implicate enough value to qualify as substantive collusion.
No, you're missing the point. It really has nothing to do with Hillary.
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Yup, they roasted him during the hearing today. One of these were the torture tactics, apparently he was one of the first to find out as an AAG, and didn't come out against it, while Mueller and Comey came out against it, and had their team leave the premises of said torture chamber.
It was definitely quite a listen to see Republican senators also clash against him.
https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/885155308145913856/video/1
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On July 13 2017 02:29 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 02:17 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 02:11 Gorsameth wrote:On July 13 2017 01:56 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 01:35 Mohdoo wrote:On July 13 2017 01:31 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 01:26 Mohdoo wrote:On July 13 2017 01:18 xDaunt wrote:
Let's just presume for a moment that the Russians told the Trump campaign something about the Hillary emails during that June 9, 2016 meeting. What would they have said? More specifically, what might they have said that was outside of the sphere of public knowledge at the time? My memory is a little fuzzy, but I don't recall the Russians releasing any information about Hillary's emails. They only [arguably] released the DNC and Podesta emails. But let's further presume for a moment that the Russians told the Trump campaign that they had actually had all of Hillary's emails and even told Trump some of what was in there. Who's really compromised at this point? Hillary or Trump? I think it is fair to assume everything that came out of Wikileaks was at the very least indirectly related to Russia. I don't think that this can be presumed yet. Yeah, it's a possibility, but I think that it is also equally as likely that someone on the inside who was unaffiliated with Russia leaked the emails. This is particularly the case with the DNC server (Podesta seems more like a hacking job). And the part that really rubs me the wrong way with the DNC server leak is that the DNC still hasn't let the FBI do a forensic study of it. That fact alone speaks volumes. Podesta was a downright social engineering hacking job no two ways about it. If we know that Russia was trying to find ways to inject negative information about the DNC into American politics, most clearly through these meetings with Jr, I think we have a lot more reason to say it was Russia than anyone else. Intent, capability and even evidence of success have already been shown in one instance. I think it is strange to think Russia would have no interest in doing the things that you are saying are unknown at this point. Are you saying that if you had to bet, you would bet on Russia not being responsible? Or are you saying that you technically don't have reason to be certain of it? It feels like you are giving devil's advocate a little too much sway here. They already did a bunch and at the very least attempted to feed stuff to the Trump campaign. One of the world's best e-war powers not being involved in one of the more potent attacks against the DNC seems extremely unlikely. If I am getting a little too comfortable wearing a tinfoil hat: You could also wonder if China tried to impersonate Russian operatives once they realized Russia was already attacking the DNC. China should want Russia and the US getting along as poorly as possible while China continues to invest in Africa and beyond. As a side note: Am I correct in my belief that China directly benefits from US-Russia troubles? I don't at all doubt that Russia, China, and other foreign countries direct their intelligence services to gather adverse information about prominent Americans and American politicians. And I'm sure that they no bones about using illicit/illegal methods to do so. There are really two issues here. The first is who got the information. The second is, of those who got the information, who released it. There could have been multiple parties who did both. The issue is that Trump was offered information by a foreign nation and went "yes please". Not really. If all you're looking for is a week's worth of headlines, that's the issue. If you're looking for something that sinks Trump, then you have to go deeper and get answers to the questions that I have been asking. I think deep down all but the conspiracy nuts know this is a media cycle win on campaign collusion and nothing more. Trump Jr met with someone believed to have oppo from a rival government source, got burned when she was just a random Russia lawyer lobbying for legislation, then double burned by no pre-written message discipline if and when this story got out. The historically-unprecedented nuts need to read up on Clinton & the Chinese campaign donations. The more grounded pundits can argue this will turn more Democrats into vocal supporters of impeachment proceedings, and they may be right. The usual suspects will go "Treason" and "this explains everything!" And shoot themselves in the foot once again.
the problem with that is your willingness to give him the benefit of doubt.
First it was "yeah this russia thing is big in the media but let's not try and portray the worst case scenario. Obviously there is nothing to be had and not a single person in the trump team met with anyone"
spiraling trough "well yeah maybe manafort is fucked but surely none of the Trumps did that" leaving us at
"well yeah, she claimed to be in contact with the russian government and that her information is from the russian government but Russia claims that's not true. So maybe we should sit back for a second and not try to portray this as as bad as possible. Maybe what Russia claims is true!" currently.
I'm just wondering when giving him that benefit stops. I am aware that from a legal point of view or what's actually going to happen that's not a bad thing and I would want people to require proof but as some random guy on an internet forum?
And I'm not necessarily talking about just you. Just how everyone's going "well OBVIOUSLY this isn't what it looks like" for the 10th time in a row now with the most as-a-matter-of-fact attitude ever.
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On July 13 2017 02:29 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 02:17 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 02:11 Gorsameth wrote:On July 13 2017 01:56 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 01:35 Mohdoo wrote:On July 13 2017 01:31 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 01:26 Mohdoo wrote:On July 13 2017 01:18 xDaunt wrote:
Let's just presume for a moment that the Russians told the Trump campaign something about the Hillary emails during that June 9, 2016 meeting. What would they have said? More specifically, what might they have said that was outside of the sphere of public knowledge at the time? My memory is a little fuzzy, but I don't recall the Russians releasing any information about Hillary's emails. They only [arguably] released the DNC and Podesta emails. But let's further presume for a moment that the Russians told the Trump campaign that they had actually had all of Hillary's emails and even told Trump some of what was in there. Who's really compromised at this point? Hillary or Trump? I think it is fair to assume everything that came out of Wikileaks was at the very least indirectly related to Russia. I don't think that this can be presumed yet. Yeah, it's a possibility, but I think that it is also equally as likely that someone on the inside who was unaffiliated with Russia leaked the emails. This is particularly the case with the DNC server (Podesta seems more like a hacking job). And the part that really rubs me the wrong way with the DNC server leak is that the DNC still hasn't let the FBI do a forensic study of it. That fact alone speaks volumes. Podesta was a downright social engineering hacking job no two ways about it. If we know that Russia was trying to find ways to inject negative information about the DNC into American politics, most clearly through these meetings with Jr, I think we have a lot more reason to say it was Russia than anyone else. Intent, capability and even evidence of success have already been shown in one instance. I think it is strange to think Russia would have no interest in doing the things that you are saying are unknown at this point. Are you saying that if you had to bet, you would bet on Russia not being responsible? Or are you saying that you technically don't have reason to be certain of it? It feels like you are giving devil's advocate a little too much sway here. They already did a bunch and at the very least attempted to feed stuff to the Trump campaign. One of the world's best e-war powers not being involved in one of the more potent attacks against the DNC seems extremely unlikely. If I am getting a little too comfortable wearing a tinfoil hat: You could also wonder if China tried to impersonate Russian operatives once they realized Russia was already attacking the DNC. China should want Russia and the US getting along as poorly as possible while China continues to invest in Africa and beyond. As a side note: Am I correct in my belief that China directly benefits from US-Russia troubles? I don't at all doubt that Russia, China, and other foreign countries direct their intelligence services to gather adverse information about prominent Americans and American politicians. And I'm sure that they no bones about using illicit/illegal methods to do so. There are really two issues here. The first is who got the information. The second is, of those who got the information, who released it. There could have been multiple parties who did both. The issue is that Trump was offered information by a foreign nation and went "yes please". Not really. If all you're looking for is a week's worth of headlines, that's the issue. If you're looking for something that sinks Trump, then you have to go deeper and get answers to the questions that I have been asking. I think deep down all but the conspiracy nuts know this is a media cycle win on campaign collusion and nothing more. Trump Jr met with someone believed to have oppo from a rival government source, got burned when she was just a random Russia lawyer lobbying for legislation, then double burned by no pre-written message discipline if and when this story got out. The historically-unprecedented nuts need to read up on Clinton & the Chinese campaign donations. The more grounded pundits can argue this will turn more Democrats into vocal supporters of impeachment proceedings, and they may be right. The usual suspects will go "Treason" and "this explains everything!" And shoot themselves in the foot once again.
The problem, as it always has been when talking about Trump's alleged Russian ties or his alleged obstruction of justice by firing Comey, is that there are too many people who are foolish enough scream from the mountaintops "WE GOT HIM" without understanding either the evidence or the law. The amount of premature load blowing has been astounding.
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On July 13 2017 02:42 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 02:29 Danglars wrote:On July 13 2017 02:17 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 02:11 Gorsameth wrote:On July 13 2017 01:56 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 01:35 Mohdoo wrote:On July 13 2017 01:31 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 01:26 Mohdoo wrote:On July 13 2017 01:18 xDaunt wrote:
Let's just presume for a moment that the Russians told the Trump campaign something about the Hillary emails during that June 9, 2016 meeting. What would they have said? More specifically, what might they have said that was outside of the sphere of public knowledge at the time? My memory is a little fuzzy, but I don't recall the Russians releasing any information about Hillary's emails. They only [arguably] released the DNC and Podesta emails. But let's further presume for a moment that the Russians told the Trump campaign that they had actually had all of Hillary's emails and even told Trump some of what was in there. Who's really compromised at this point? Hillary or Trump? I think it is fair to assume everything that came out of Wikileaks was at the very least indirectly related to Russia. I don't think that this can be presumed yet. Yeah, it's a possibility, but I think that it is also equally as likely that someone on the inside who was unaffiliated with Russia leaked the emails. This is particularly the case with the DNC server (Podesta seems more like a hacking job). And the part that really rubs me the wrong way with the DNC server leak is that the DNC still hasn't let the FBI do a forensic study of it. That fact alone speaks volumes. Podesta was a downright social engineering hacking job no two ways about it. If we know that Russia was trying to find ways to inject negative information about the DNC into American politics, most clearly through these meetings with Jr, I think we have a lot more reason to say it was Russia than anyone else. Intent, capability and even evidence of success have already been shown in one instance. I think it is strange to think Russia would have no interest in doing the things that you are saying are unknown at this point. Are you saying that if you had to bet, you would bet on Russia not being responsible? Or are you saying that you technically don't have reason to be certain of it? It feels like you are giving devil's advocate a little too much sway here. They already did a bunch and at the very least attempted to feed stuff to the Trump campaign. One of the world's best e-war powers not being involved in one of the more potent attacks against the DNC seems extremely unlikely. If I am getting a little too comfortable wearing a tinfoil hat: You could also wonder if China tried to impersonate Russian operatives once they realized Russia was already attacking the DNC. China should want Russia and the US getting along as poorly as possible while China continues to invest in Africa and beyond. As a side note: Am I correct in my belief that China directly benefits from US-Russia troubles? I don't at all doubt that Russia, China, and other foreign countries direct their intelligence services to gather adverse information about prominent Americans and American politicians. And I'm sure that they no bones about using illicit/illegal methods to do so. There are really two issues here. The first is who got the information. The second is, of those who got the information, who released it. There could have been multiple parties who did both. The issue is that Trump was offered information by a foreign nation and went "yes please". Not really. If all you're looking for is a week's worth of headlines, that's the issue. If you're looking for something that sinks Trump, then you have to go deeper and get answers to the questions that I have been asking. I think deep down all but the conspiracy nuts know this is a media cycle win on campaign collusion and nothing more. Trump Jr met with someone believed to have oppo from a rival government source, got burned when she was just a random Russia lawyer lobbying for legislation, then double burned by no pre-written message discipline if and when this story got out. The historically-unprecedented nuts need to read up on Clinton & the Chinese campaign donations. The more grounded pundits can argue this will turn more Democrats into vocal supporters of impeachment proceedings, and they may be right. The usual suspects will go "Treason" and "this explains everything!" And shoot themselves in the foot once again. The problem, as it always has been when talking about Trump's alleged Russian ties or his alleged obstruction of justice by firing Comey, is that there are too many people who are foolish enough scream from the mountaintops "WE GOT HIM" without understanding either the evidence or the law. The amount of premature load blowing has been astounding.
yeah; there are a bunch of people doing that; just as there are a bunch of people arguing it's nothing/insignificant to an astounding degree. there's been a lot of astounding behavior of late 
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On July 13 2017 02:17 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 02:11 Gorsameth wrote:On July 13 2017 01:56 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 01:35 Mohdoo wrote:On July 13 2017 01:31 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 01:26 Mohdoo wrote:On July 13 2017 01:18 xDaunt wrote:
Let's just presume for a moment that the Russians told the Trump campaign something about the Hillary emails during that June 9, 2016 meeting. What would they have said? More specifically, what might they have said that was outside of the sphere of public knowledge at the time? My memory is a little fuzzy, but I don't recall the Russians releasing any information about Hillary's emails. They only [arguably] released the DNC and Podesta emails. But let's further presume for a moment that the Russians told the Trump campaign that they had actually had all of Hillary's emails and even told Trump some of what was in there. Who's really compromised at this point? Hillary or Trump? I think it is fair to assume everything that came out of Wikileaks was at the very least indirectly related to Russia. I don't think that this can be presumed yet. Yeah, it's a possibility, but I think that it is also equally as likely that someone on the inside who was unaffiliated with Russia leaked the emails. This is particularly the case with the DNC server (Podesta seems more like a hacking job). And the part that really rubs me the wrong way with the DNC server leak is that the DNC still hasn't let the FBI do a forensic study of it. That fact alone speaks volumes. Podesta was a downright social engineering hacking job no two ways about it. If we know that Russia was trying to find ways to inject negative information about the DNC into American politics, most clearly through these meetings with Jr, I think we have a lot more reason to say it was Russia than anyone else. Intent, capability and even evidence of success have already been shown in one instance. I think it is strange to think Russia would have no interest in doing the things that you are saying are unknown at this point. Are you saying that if you had to bet, you would bet on Russia not being responsible? Or are you saying that you technically don't have reason to be certain of it? It feels like you are giving devil's advocate a little too much sway here. They already did a bunch and at the very least attempted to feed stuff to the Trump campaign. One of the world's best e-war powers not being involved in one of the more potent attacks against the DNC seems extremely unlikely. If I am getting a little too comfortable wearing a tinfoil hat: You could also wonder if China tried to impersonate Russian operatives once they realized Russia was already attacking the DNC. China should want Russia and the US getting along as poorly as possible while China continues to invest in Africa and beyond. As a side note: Am I correct in my belief that China directly benefits from US-Russia troubles? I don't at all doubt that Russia, China, and other foreign countries direct their intelligence services to gather adverse information about prominent Americans and American politicians. And I'm sure that they no bones about using illicit/illegal methods to do so. There are really two issues here. The first is who got the information. The second is, of those who got the information, who released it. There could have been multiple parties who did both. The issue is that Trump was offered information by a foreign nation and went "yes please". Not really. If all you're looking for is a week's worth of headlines, that's the issue. If you're looking for something that sinks Trump, then you have to go deeper and get answers to the questions that I have been asking.
Whether it actually sinks Trump and whether it should sink Trump are different questions though.
I'm not sure that Trump's base would turn on him even if he shot somebody on live TV. As long as Trump has his 30-40% support, congressional republicans won't feel it's worth it to turn on him and jeopardize healthcare reform, tax reform, etc. Which makes sense in some ways, from their point of view.
On the other hand, accepting illegal opposition research from a foreign government encourages said foreign government to continue hacking, spying, etc. As far as I'm concerned, implicitly and directly encouraging Russian hacking to boost your own election chances is collusion. That should sink Trump. Not that I think it actually will.
I'm speaking as someone who would love to see the Republicans accomplish something on tax reform as well. Trump is jeopardizing every hope of that with his shenanigans though.
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On July 13 2017 02:29 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 02:17 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 02:11 Gorsameth wrote:On July 13 2017 01:56 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 01:35 Mohdoo wrote:On July 13 2017 01:31 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 01:26 Mohdoo wrote:On July 13 2017 01:18 xDaunt wrote:
Let's just presume for a moment that the Russians told the Trump campaign something about the Hillary emails during that June 9, 2016 meeting. What would they have said? More specifically, what might they have said that was outside of the sphere of public knowledge at the time? My memory is a little fuzzy, but I don't recall the Russians releasing any information about Hillary's emails. They only [arguably] released the DNC and Podesta emails. But let's further presume for a moment that the Russians told the Trump campaign that they had actually had all of Hillary's emails and even told Trump some of what was in there. Who's really compromised at this point? Hillary or Trump? I think it is fair to assume everything that came out of Wikileaks was at the very least indirectly related to Russia. I don't think that this can be presumed yet. Yeah, it's a possibility, but I think that it is also equally as likely that someone on the inside who was unaffiliated with Russia leaked the emails. This is particularly the case with the DNC server (Podesta seems more like a hacking job). And the part that really rubs me the wrong way with the DNC server leak is that the DNC still hasn't let the FBI do a forensic study of it. That fact alone speaks volumes. Podesta was a downright social engineering hacking job no two ways about it. If we know that Russia was trying to find ways to inject negative information about the DNC into American politics, most clearly through these meetings with Jr, I think we have a lot more reason to say it was Russia than anyone else. Intent, capability and even evidence of success have already been shown in one instance. I think it is strange to think Russia would have no interest in doing the things that you are saying are unknown at this point. Are you saying that if you had to bet, you would bet on Russia not being responsible? Or are you saying that you technically don't have reason to be certain of it? It feels like you are giving devil's advocate a little too much sway here. They already did a bunch and at the very least attempted to feed stuff to the Trump campaign. One of the world's best e-war powers not being involved in one of the more potent attacks against the DNC seems extremely unlikely. If I am getting a little too comfortable wearing a tinfoil hat: You could also wonder if China tried to impersonate Russian operatives once they realized Russia was already attacking the DNC. China should want Russia and the US getting along as poorly as possible while China continues to invest in Africa and beyond. As a side note: Am I correct in my belief that China directly benefits from US-Russia troubles? I don't at all doubt that Russia, China, and other foreign countries direct their intelligence services to gather adverse information about prominent Americans and American politicians. And I'm sure that they no bones about using illicit/illegal methods to do so. There are really two issues here. The first is who got the information. The second is, of those who got the information, who released it. There could have been multiple parties who did both. The issue is that Trump was offered information by a foreign nation and went "yes please". Not really. If all you're looking for is a week's worth of headlines, that's the issue. If you're looking for something that sinks Trump, then you have to go deeper and get answers to the questions that I have been asking. I think deep down all but the conspiracy nuts know this is a media cycle win on campaign collusion and nothing more. Trump Jr met with someone believed to have oppo from a rival government source, got burned when she was just a random Russia lawyer lobbying for legislation, then double burned by no pre-written message discipline if and when this story got out. The historically-unprecedented nuts need to read up on Clinton & the Chinese campaign donations. The more grounded pundits can argue this will turn more Democrats into vocal supporters of impeachment proceedings, and they may be right. The usual suspects will go "Treason" and "this explains everything!" And shoot themselves in the foot once again.
You do know that the random Russian legislation they were talking about was put in place and would only be lifted because of changes in U.S. sanctions, right? It's not just a random law about adoption.
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How can you keep swallowing the lies DJT feeds you? I know you want to spin for him, but come on. DJT out and out lied about the contents of that meeting on Saturday. Then on Tuesday you are ready to believe him when he says nothing came of it? (DJT is speaking through DonJR and Hannity) How many more times are you going to get left holding the bags after the lies are dispelled? At what point do you get a sense of skepticism about the latest lies about what went down in that meeting?
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On July 13 2017 02:41 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 02:29 Danglars wrote:On July 13 2017 02:17 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 02:11 Gorsameth wrote:On July 13 2017 01:56 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 01:35 Mohdoo wrote:On July 13 2017 01:31 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 01:26 Mohdoo wrote:On July 13 2017 01:18 xDaunt wrote:
Let's just presume for a moment that the Russians told the Trump campaign something about the Hillary emails during that June 9, 2016 meeting. What would they have said? More specifically, what might they have said that was outside of the sphere of public knowledge at the time? My memory is a little fuzzy, but I don't recall the Russians releasing any information about Hillary's emails. They only [arguably] released the DNC and Podesta emails. But let's further presume for a moment that the Russians told the Trump campaign that they had actually had all of Hillary's emails and even told Trump some of what was in there. Who's really compromised at this point? Hillary or Trump? I think it is fair to assume everything that came out of Wikileaks was at the very least indirectly related to Russia. I don't think that this can be presumed yet. Yeah, it's a possibility, but I think that it is also equally as likely that someone on the inside who was unaffiliated with Russia leaked the emails. This is particularly the case with the DNC server (Podesta seems more like a hacking job). And the part that really rubs me the wrong way with the DNC server leak is that the DNC still hasn't let the FBI do a forensic study of it. That fact alone speaks volumes. Podesta was a downright social engineering hacking job no two ways about it. If we know that Russia was trying to find ways to inject negative information about the DNC into American politics, most clearly through these meetings with Jr, I think we have a lot more reason to say it was Russia than anyone else. Intent, capability and even evidence of success have already been shown in one instance. I think it is strange to think Russia would have no interest in doing the things that you are saying are unknown at this point. Are you saying that if you had to bet, you would bet on Russia not being responsible? Or are you saying that you technically don't have reason to be certain of it? It feels like you are giving devil's advocate a little too much sway here. They already did a bunch and at the very least attempted to feed stuff to the Trump campaign. One of the world's best e-war powers not being involved in one of the more potent attacks against the DNC seems extremely unlikely. If I am getting a little too comfortable wearing a tinfoil hat: You could also wonder if China tried to impersonate Russian operatives once they realized Russia was already attacking the DNC. China should want Russia and the US getting along as poorly as possible while China continues to invest in Africa and beyond. As a side note: Am I correct in my belief that China directly benefits from US-Russia troubles? I don't at all doubt that Russia, China, and other foreign countries direct their intelligence services to gather adverse information about prominent Americans and American politicians. And I'm sure that they no bones about using illicit/illegal methods to do so. There are really two issues here. The first is who got the information. The second is, of those who got the information, who released it. There could have been multiple parties who did both. The issue is that Trump was offered information by a foreign nation and went "yes please". Not really. If all you're looking for is a week's worth of headlines, that's the issue. If you're looking for something that sinks Trump, then you have to go deeper and get answers to the questions that I have been asking. I think deep down all but the conspiracy nuts know this is a media cycle win on campaign collusion and nothing more. Trump Jr met with someone believed to have oppo from a rival government source, got burned when she was just a random Russia lawyer lobbying for legislation, then double burned by no pre-written message discipline if and when this story got out. The historically-unprecedented nuts need to read up on Clinton & the Chinese campaign donations. The more grounded pundits can argue this will turn more Democrats into vocal supporters of impeachment proceedings, and they may be right. The usual suspects will go "Treason" and "this explains everything!" And shoot themselves in the foot once again. the problem with that is your willingness to give him the benefit of doubt. First it was "yeah this russia thing is big in the media but let's not try and portray the worst case scenario. Obviously there is nothing to be had and not a single person in the trump team met with anyone"spiraling trough "well yeah maybe manafort is fucked but surely none of the Trumps did that" leaving us at "well yeah, she claimed to be in contact with the russian government and that her information is from the russian government but Russia claims that's not true. So maybe we should sit back for a second and not try to portray this as as bad as possible. Maybe what Russia claims is true!" currently. I'm just wondering when giving him that benefit stops. I am aware that from a legal point of view or what's actually going to happen that's not a bad thing and I would want people to require proof but as some random guy on an internet forum? And I'm not necessarily talking about just you. Just how everyone's going "well OBVIOUSLY this isn't what it looks like" for the 10th time in a row now with the most as-a-matter-of-fact attitude ever.
I feel like when a member of the Trump campaign does get arrested, they will still claim liberals, democrats, and all others are out to get them, that the narrative is false, and we're all the out of touch with reality. It's a never ending vicious cycle with Trump supporters. If they haven't changed yet, they aren't going to change because people just do not like to be wrong.
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United States41470 Posts
On July 13 2017 02:39 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 02:23 NewSunshine wrote:On July 13 2017 02:17 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 02:11 Gorsameth wrote:On July 13 2017 01:56 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 01:35 Mohdoo wrote:On July 13 2017 01:31 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 01:26 Mohdoo wrote:On July 13 2017 01:18 xDaunt wrote:
Let's just presume for a moment that the Russians told the Trump campaign something about the Hillary emails during that June 9, 2016 meeting. What would they have said? More specifically, what might they have said that was outside of the sphere of public knowledge at the time? My memory is a little fuzzy, but I don't recall the Russians releasing any information about Hillary's emails. They only [arguably] released the DNC and Podesta emails. But let's further presume for a moment that the Russians told the Trump campaign that they had actually had all of Hillary's emails and even told Trump some of what was in there. Who's really compromised at this point? Hillary or Trump? I think it is fair to assume everything that came out of Wikileaks was at the very least indirectly related to Russia. I don't think that this can be presumed yet. Yeah, it's a possibility, but I think that it is also equally as likely that someone on the inside who was unaffiliated with Russia leaked the emails. This is particularly the case with the DNC server (Podesta seems more like a hacking job). And the part that really rubs me the wrong way with the DNC server leak is that the DNC still hasn't let the FBI do a forensic study of it. That fact alone speaks volumes. Podesta was a downright social engineering hacking job no two ways about it. If we know that Russia was trying to find ways to inject negative information about the DNC into American politics, most clearly through these meetings with Jr, I think we have a lot more reason to say it was Russia than anyone else. Intent, capability and even evidence of success have already been shown in one instance. I think it is strange to think Russia would have no interest in doing the things that you are saying are unknown at this point. Are you saying that if you had to bet, you would bet on Russia not being responsible? Or are you saying that you technically don't have reason to be certain of it? It feels like you are giving devil's advocate a little too much sway here. They already did a bunch and at the very least attempted to feed stuff to the Trump campaign. One of the world's best e-war powers not being involved in one of the more potent attacks against the DNC seems extremely unlikely. If I am getting a little too comfortable wearing a tinfoil hat: You could also wonder if China tried to impersonate Russian operatives once they realized Russia was already attacking the DNC. China should want Russia and the US getting along as poorly as possible while China continues to invest in Africa and beyond. As a side note: Am I correct in my belief that China directly benefits from US-Russia troubles? I don't at all doubt that Russia, China, and other foreign countries direct their intelligence services to gather adverse information about prominent Americans and American politicians. And I'm sure that they no bones about using illicit/illegal methods to do so. There are really two issues here. The first is who got the information. The second is, of those who got the information, who released it. There could have been multiple parties who did both. The issue is that Trump was offered information by a foreign nation and went "yes please". Not really. If all you're looking for is a week's worth of headlines, that's the issue. If you're looking for something that sinks Trump, then you have to go deeper and get answers to the questions that I have been asking. Deeper than Trump and his team actively undermining the democratic process by seeking help from a foreign nation - something strictly forbidden? Like I've asked before, what specifically did Trump and his campaign do that was illegal? What information was solicited, received, and used? What role did his campaign have in the acquisition and dissemination of that information? Y'all need to stop loosely throwing around terms like "collusion" and "conspiracy" without understanding what they actually mean, and in particular, how they fit into codified terms of illegal conduct.
As we saw with the Comey firing after asking for a pledge of loyalty and saying he hoped Comey would see fit to drop the investigation if he wanted to keep his job, you subscribe very heavily to the view that if the President does it then it's not illegal.
The fact remains that they took a meeting where they now admit that sanctions were discussed (the Russian adoption issue was a tit-for-tat response to the Magnitsky sanctions as those who claim this was nothing more than adoption discussions fail to mention, through dishonesty or ignorance) because they believed that the Russian government had information that was damaging to Clinton which would be proffered in exchange at the meeting regarding sanctions.
When you're retreating to "yeah, but show me where it's written down that they can't do that" then you're somewhat missing the point.
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EPT
