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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
United States44245 Posts
On June 21 2017 05:47 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2017 05:46 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:MAGA!!! The next-generation Ford Focus will be built in China and exported for sale in the U.S., Ford Motor Co. said Tuesday, abandoning a plan to build the small car in Mexico. Production of the new car is scheduled to begin in 2019.
Ford says the move will save it $1 billion in investment costs and will make it "a more operationally fit company." It also promises that "no U.S. hourly employees will be out of a job" because of the move to China.
The move is not likely to please the White House, as the topics of manufacturing jobs and the location of auto companies' plants have been recurring themes during the first months of the Trump administration.
Back in January, President-elect Trump tweeted, "Car companies and others, if they want to do business in our country, have to start making things here again. WIN!"
When Ford announced a $1.2 billion investment in three of its Michigan facilities in March, the president celebrated by tweeting, "Car companies coming back to U.S. JOBS! JOBS! JOBS!"
Ford is coming off a record year in China, having sold 1.27 million vehicles there in 2016 — a 14 percent gain over 2015. That figure includes vehicles made in China by Ford's joint ventures, as well as Ford and Lincoln imports. When it opened its sixth assembly plant in China back in 2015, Ford said it could build 1.4 million vehicles a year in the country.
For Mexico, this is the second dramatic shift from Ford in 2017. The new Focus originally was to be built in the central state of San Luis Potosi, but the company canceled construction of a $1.6 billion plant there in January.
Plans then called for building the vehicle at an existing facility in Hermosillo in the northwestern state of Sonora — but the company nixed that plan on Tuesday.
The new development prompted the Mexican business journal El Financiero to recount "the sad story of Ford Focus and Mexico," with sections titled "The Illusion," "The Drama" and "The Outcome."
Ford's operations in Mexico have been a talking point for Trump since last year's campaign.
"Trump criticized Ford during the campaign for its decision to move small-car production from Michigan to Mexico," NPR's Sonari Glinton reported last November. "Trump suggested he might impose tariffs on Ford cars assembled in Mexico."
After the November election, Trump took credit for Ford's decision to keep a production plant for the Lincoln MKC in Louisville, Ky., instead of Mexico — but the carmaker clarified that it had never planned to close the Kentucky plant. Ford executives have said that while it can make money off of SUVs built in the U.S., it needs to produce small cars in other countries to keep their sticker prices low enough to compete.
Back in November, Ford's then-CEO Mark Fields said the company would move forward with a plan to build the Focus in Mexico. But under new CEO Jim Hackett, that plan has changed again.
When Fords shifts production of the Focus overseas after mid-2018, it will also convert its Michigan plant to produce the Ranger pickup truck in late 2018 and the Bronco midsize SUV in 2020. Source[/uirl] This sounds like a math problem we've reviewed in this thread to great detail. If you lose an opportunity to make money, is that money being taken away? Kind of. This idea that the US is not missing out on ANYTHING by building in China is dog shit. We would clearly benefit as a whole if this plant went into the US instead of China.
Only if labour and raw materials were elastic. Consider the situation if they were both limited and saturated. If Americans are earning $30/hr at their jobs then they're unlikely to want to accept jobs for $5/hr building cars. They'll simply devote $5 of their $30 to outsourcing that labour to the Chinese and get both the benefit of having the cars while also having $25 profit. In that example they have their cake and eat it too by trading a portion of their most valuable labour to receive the entire output of the less valuable labour.
However if we assume that for every job above a minimum viable output there is a labourer wishing to do it then yes, undercutting the American labourers with Chinese ones leaves them unemployed and although those at the top can still pay less for a car than they would if it were American built those at the bottom can't afford anything.
Some jobs have to be outsourced because labour is finite and would be poorly allocated were the jobs not outsourced. There is no loss in doing so. Same with resources. The question is whether this particular case is one of those.
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On June 21 2017 05:46 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:MAGA!!! Show nested quote +The next-generation Ford Focus will be built in China and exported for sale in the U.S., Ford Motor Co. said Tuesday, abandoning a plan to build the small car in Mexico. Production of the new car is scheduled to begin in 2019.
Ford says the move will save it $1 billion in investment costs and will make it "a more operationally fit company." It also promises that "no U.S. hourly employees will be out of a job" because of the move to China.
The move is not likely to please the White House, as the topics of manufacturing jobs and the location of auto companies' plants have been recurring themes during the first months of the Trump administration.
Back in January, President-elect Trump tweeted, "Car companies and others, if they want to do business in our country, have to start making things here again. WIN!"
When Ford announced a $1.2 billion investment in three of its Michigan facilities in March, the president celebrated by tweeting, "Car companies coming back to U.S. JOBS! JOBS! JOBS!"
Ford is coming off a record year in China, having sold 1.27 million vehicles there in 2016 — a 14 percent gain over 2015. That figure includes vehicles made in China by Ford's joint ventures, as well as Ford and Lincoln imports. When it opened its sixth assembly plant in China back in 2015, Ford said it could build 1.4 million vehicles a year in the country.
For Mexico, this is the second dramatic shift from Ford in 2017. The new Focus originally was to be built in the central state of San Luis Potosi, but the company canceled construction of a $1.6 billion plant there in January.
Plans then called for building the vehicle at an existing facility in Hermosillo in the northwestern state of Sonora — but the company nixed that plan on Tuesday.
The new development prompted the Mexican business journal El Financiero to recount "the sad story of Ford Focus and Mexico," with sections titled "The Illusion," "The Drama" and "The Outcome."
Ford's operations in Mexico have been a talking point for Trump since last year's campaign.
"Trump criticized Ford during the campaign for its decision to move small-car production from Michigan to Mexico," NPR's Sonari Glinton reported last November. "Trump suggested he might impose tariffs on Ford cars assembled in Mexico."
After the November election, Trump took credit for Ford's decision to keep a production plant for the Lincoln MKC in Louisville, Ky., instead of Mexico — but the carmaker clarified that it had never planned to close the Kentucky plant. Ford executives have said that while it can make money off of SUVs built in the U.S., it needs to produce small cars in other countries to keep their sticker prices low enough to compete.
Back in November, Ford's then-CEO Mark Fields said the company would move forward with a plan to build the Focus in Mexico. But under new CEO Jim Hackett, that plan has changed again.
When Fords shifts production of the Focus overseas after mid-2018, it will also convert its Michigan plant to produce the Ranger pickup truck in late 2018 and the Bronco midsize SUV in 2020. Source
México to China. How is this even big news?
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On June 21 2017 04:31 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2017 02:22 Mohdoo wrote:Out of curiosity, are there any such polls making democrats look like complete dumbasses? Are there Obama era things that people blame on bush? I imagine I only hear about the polls showing republicans are idiots, but surely there must be a comparable democrat thing. Democrats who think Obama took out Saddam or something like that Well...
That's the gold standard in dumb Democrat voters. Pick the mote out of Republicans' eyes all the while with a plank in your own. Civic education and engagement continues in decline.
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United States44245 Posts
On June 21 2017 06:07 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2017 04:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 21 2017 02:22 Mohdoo wrote:Out of curiosity, are there any such polls making democrats look like complete dumbasses? Are there Obama era things that people blame on bush? I imagine I only hear about the polls showing republicans are idiots, but surely there must be a comparable democrat thing. Democrats who think Obama took out Saddam or something like that Well... https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/815256370958237696 That's the gold standard in dumb Democrat voters. Pick the mote out of Republicans' eyes all the while with a plank in your own. Civic education and engagement continues in decline.
This'll be shocking news to anyone who thinks that ignorance is confined to one side of the political spectrum.
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They released the dash cam footage of the Philando Castile shooting along with a PDF of Yanez's interview with the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension which was not allowed into evidence. It contains such gems as
“Uh but uh as that was happening as he was pulling at, out his hand I thought, I was gonna die and I thought if he’s, if he has the, the guts and the audacity to smoke marijuana in front of the five year old girl and risk her lungs and risk her life by giving her secondhand smoke and the front seat passenger doing the same thing then what, what care does he give about me?”
That's some quality ass logic right there.
The video is obviously NSFW. You can't see any blood but it's horrible none the less, be advised.
www.startribune.com
The PDF of the interview (also linked in the story)
www.ramseycounty.us
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On June 21 2017 06:07 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2017 04:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 21 2017 02:22 Mohdoo wrote:Out of curiosity, are there any such polls making democrats look like complete dumbasses? Are there Obama era things that people blame on bush? I imagine I only hear about the polls showing republicans are idiots, but surely there must be a comparable democrat thing. Democrats who think Obama took out Saddam or something like that Well... https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/815256370958237696 That's the gold standard in dumb Democrat voters. Pick the mote out of Republicans' eyes all the while with a plank in your own. Civic education and engagement continues in decline.
is there evidence that civic education is actually worse than it used ot be, rather than people simply always being dumb and it being talked about more now?
civic engagement is declining by which measure?
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On June 21 2017 06:13 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2017 06:07 Danglars wrote:On June 21 2017 04:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 21 2017 02:22 Mohdoo wrote:Out of curiosity, are there any such polls making democrats look like complete dumbasses? Are there Obama era things that people blame on bush? I imagine I only hear about the polls showing republicans are idiots, but surely there must be a comparable democrat thing. Democrats who think Obama took out Saddam or something like that Well... https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/815256370958237696 That's the gold standard in dumb Democrat voters. Pick the mote out of Republicans' eyes all the while with a plank in your own. Civic education and engagement continues in decline. is there evidence that civic education is actually worse than it used ot be, rather than people simply always being dumb and it being talked about more now? civic engagement is declining by which measure?
My point is that the ignorance quotient is very bipartisan in nature.
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On June 21 2017 06:05 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2017 05:46 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:MAGA!!! The next-generation Ford Focus will be built in China and exported for sale in the U.S., Ford Motor Co. said Tuesday, abandoning a plan to build the small car in Mexico. Production of the new car is scheduled to begin in 2019.
Ford says the move will save it $1 billion in investment costs and will make it "a more operationally fit company." It also promises that "no U.S. hourly employees will be out of a job" because of the move to China.
The move is not likely to please the White House, as the topics of manufacturing jobs and the location of auto companies' plants have been recurring themes during the first months of the Trump administration.
Back in January, President-elect Trump tweeted, "Car companies and others, if they want to do business in our country, have to start making things here again. WIN!"
When Ford announced a $1.2 billion investment in three of its Michigan facilities in March, the president celebrated by tweeting, "Car companies coming back to U.S. JOBS! JOBS! JOBS!"
Ford is coming off a record year in China, having sold 1.27 million vehicles there in 2016 — a 14 percent gain over 2015. That figure includes vehicles made in China by Ford's joint ventures, as well as Ford and Lincoln imports. When it opened its sixth assembly plant in China back in 2015, Ford said it could build 1.4 million vehicles a year in the country.
For Mexico, this is the second dramatic shift from Ford in 2017. The new Focus originally was to be built in the central state of San Luis Potosi, but the company canceled construction of a $1.6 billion plant there in January.
Plans then called for building the vehicle at an existing facility in Hermosillo in the northwestern state of Sonora — but the company nixed that plan on Tuesday.
The new development prompted the Mexican business journal El Financiero to recount "the sad story of Ford Focus and Mexico," with sections titled "The Illusion," "The Drama" and "The Outcome."
Ford's operations in Mexico have been a talking point for Trump since last year's campaign.
"Trump criticized Ford during the campaign for its decision to move small-car production from Michigan to Mexico," NPR's Sonari Glinton reported last November. "Trump suggested he might impose tariffs on Ford cars assembled in Mexico."
After the November election, Trump took credit for Ford's decision to keep a production plant for the Lincoln MKC in Louisville, Ky., instead of Mexico — but the carmaker clarified that it had never planned to close the Kentucky plant. Ford executives have said that while it can make money off of SUVs built in the U.S., it needs to produce small cars in other countries to keep their sticker prices low enough to compete.
Back in November, Ford's then-CEO Mark Fields said the company would move forward with a plan to build the Focus in Mexico. But under new CEO Jim Hackett, that plan has changed again.
When Fords shifts production of the Focus overseas after mid-2018, it will also convert its Michigan plant to produce the Ranger pickup truck in late 2018 and the Bronco midsize SUV in 2020. Source México to China. How is this even big news?
An enormous thrust of Trump's message was punishing American companies who build factories outside the US. Ford is building a factory in China.
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United States44245 Posts
It's possible they plan to sell some cars to the Chinese.
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On June 21 2017 06:15 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2017 06:13 zlefin wrote:On June 21 2017 06:07 Danglars wrote:On June 21 2017 04:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 21 2017 02:22 Mohdoo wrote:Out of curiosity, are there any such polls making democrats look like complete dumbasses? Are there Obama era things that people blame on bush? I imagine I only hear about the polls showing republicans are idiots, but surely there must be a comparable democrat thing. Democrats who think Obama took out Saddam or something like that Well... https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/815256370958237696 That's the gold standard in dumb Democrat voters. Pick the mote out of Republicans' eyes all the while with a plank in your own. Civic education and engagement continues in decline. is there evidence that civic education is actually worse than it used ot be, rather than people simply always being dumb and it being talked about more now? civic engagement is declining by which measure? My point is that the ignorance quotient is very bipartisan in nature.
I will second your proposal that civics education in the US is criminally lacking. The calls for immediate impeachment by democrats are proof of that.
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On June 21 2017 06:15 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2017 06:13 zlefin wrote:On June 21 2017 06:07 Danglars wrote:On June 21 2017 04:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 21 2017 02:22 Mohdoo wrote:Out of curiosity, are there any such polls making democrats look like complete dumbasses? Are there Obama era things that people blame on bush? I imagine I only hear about the polls showing republicans are idiots, but surely there must be a comparable democrat thing. Democrats who think Obama took out Saddam or something like that Well... https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/815256370958237696 That's the gold standard in dumb Democrat voters. Pick the mote out of Republicans' eyes all the while with a plank in your own. Civic education and engagement continues in decline. is there evidence that civic education is actually worse than it used ot be, rather than people simply always being dumb and it being talked about more now? civic engagement is declining by which measure? My point is that the ignorance quotient is very bipartisan in nature.
but that was never contested or disputed. so your remarks on civics are then irrelevant, as they have no bearing on your stated point. setting aside whether they were correct (which also seems doubtful)
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On June 21 2017 06:11 OuchyDathurts wrote:They released the dash cam footage of the Philando Castile shooting along with a PDF of Yanez's interview with the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension which was not allowed into evidence. It contains such gems as Show nested quote +“Uh but uh as that was happening as he was pulling at, out his hand I thought, I was gonna die and I thought if he’s, if he has the, the guts and the audacity to smoke marijuana in front of the five year old girl and risk her lungs and risk her life by giving her secondhand smoke and the front seat passenger doing the same thing then what, what care does he give about me?” That's some quality ass logic right there. The video is obviously NSFW. You can't see any blood but it's horrible none the less, be advised. www.startribune.comThe PDF of the interview (also linked in the story) www.ramseycounty.us
If stupidity were a crime...
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US forces in southern Syria have shot down an Iranian-made armed drone in the second such incident in 12 days, in a further sign that Washington and Tehran’s agendas are colliding along the Syrian-Iraqi desert frontier.
A US F-15 fighter jet opened fire on the drone in the early afternoon because it was approaching a US outpost near al-Tanf where US advisors were training an anti-Isis local militia, according to the Pentagon spokesman, Capt Jeff Davis.
“The F15 intercepted the armed UAV [unmanned aerial vehicle] after it was observed advancing on coalition positions. It had ‘dirty wings’, meaning it was loaded with ordnance. The UAV did not make an attempt to divert,” Davis said.
Al-Tanf is a strategic point near the Syrian, Iraq and Jordanian borders. In a similar incident on 8 June, an Iranian-made drone of the same kind dropped a bomb near US troops at the same training outpost before it was shot down by a US plane.
“We have said before that demonstrated hostile intent and actions of pro-regime forces towards coalition partner forces in Syria that are conducting legitimate counter-Isis operations in Syria, will not be tolerated,” Davis said. “We do not seek conflict with any party in Syria other than Isis but we will not hesitate to defend ourselves or our partners if necessary.”
Russia accused the US-led coalition of “complicity with terrorism” by shooting down the drone. “In Syria this type of strike is akin to complicity with terrorism,” deputy foreign minister Sergei Ryabkov told the Interfax news agency.
And as Isis is dislodged from its current strongholds and outside powers compete for control of the vacated territory, the potential for clashes has escalated rapidly.
Tensions are also manifesting themselves in other arenas. On Tuesday, the US reported that a Russian fighter jet came within five feet of a US warplane over the Baltic Sea. US officials said the plane was armed and flying “erratically”. The incident is one of a long string of close encounters as Nato and Russian forces exercise in close proximity.
UN secretary general Antonio Guterres warned that the recent incidents could be “very dangerous” and lead to an escalation of the war in Syria.
“I strongly hope that there will be a de-escalation of the situation because these kinds of incidents can be very dangerous in a conflict situation in which there are so many actors and in which the situation is so complex on the ground,” said Guterres.
In Syria, Russia announced on Monday that it had suspended a military hotline with US forces and threatened to shoot down coalition planes that flew west of the Euphrates river after the US shot down a Syrian-piloted bomber that flew too close to a US-supported force advancing on the Isis bastion of Raqqa in northern Syria.
Just before the shooting down of the Syrian bomber, US officials say there was a movement of regime ground troops with tanks and artillery towards two towns near Raqqa that were held by US-backed Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF).
According to the Pentagon, US warplanes conducted a show of force to try to warn off the advance including strafing runs near regime lines.
At that point the Syrian government Su-22 approached and the US aircraft also tried to warn it off by firing flares and carrying out a “head butt manoeuvre”, which entails flying just in front of an aircraft so it is jostled by the wake of the jet engines.
According to the Pentagon account the Su-22 pilot ignored the warning and went into a dive to bomb SDF positions. After that the Syrian jet was shot down by the US warplanes.
Source
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On June 21 2017 06:27 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2017 06:15 Danglars wrote:On June 21 2017 06:13 zlefin wrote:On June 21 2017 06:07 Danglars wrote:On June 21 2017 04:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 21 2017 02:22 Mohdoo wrote:Out of curiosity, are there any such polls making democrats look like complete dumbasses? Are there Obama era things that people blame on bush? I imagine I only hear about the polls showing republicans are idiots, but surely there must be a comparable democrat thing. Democrats who think Obama took out Saddam or something like that Well... https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/815256370958237696 That's the gold standard in dumb Democrat voters. Pick the mote out of Republicans' eyes all the while with a plank in your own. Civic education and engagement continues in decline. is there evidence that civic education is actually worse than it used ot be, rather than people simply always being dumb and it being talked about more now? civic engagement is declining by which measure? My point is that the ignorance quotient is very bipartisan in nature. but that was never contested or disputed. so your remarks on civics are then irrelevant, as they have no bearing on your stated point. setting aside whether they were correct (which also seems doubtful)
You know what else is pointless, this post and my response to it. Calm down with the policing semantics or saying that points are settled. People can make up their mind on both so of those.
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On June 21 2017 06:27 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2017 06:15 Danglars wrote:On June 21 2017 06:13 zlefin wrote:On June 21 2017 06:07 Danglars wrote:On June 21 2017 04:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 21 2017 02:22 Mohdoo wrote:Out of curiosity, are there any such polls making democrats look like complete dumbasses? Are there Obama era things that people blame on bush? I imagine I only hear about the polls showing republicans are idiots, but surely there must be a comparable democrat thing. Democrats who think Obama took out Saddam or something like that Well... https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/815256370958237696 That's the gold standard in dumb Democrat voters. Pick the mote out of Republicans' eyes all the while with a plank in your own. Civic education and engagement continues in decline. is there evidence that civic education is actually worse than it used ot be, rather than people simply always being dumb and it being talked about more now? civic engagement is declining by which measure? My point is that the ignorance quotient is very bipartisan in nature. but that was never contested or disputed. so your remarks on civics are then irrelevant, as they have no bearing on your stated point. setting aside whether they were correct (which also seems doubtful)
I'll be sure to run my points before you in the future to make sure they pass zlefin's relevance test.
In true zlefin fashion, they're not "contested or disputed" but doubtfully correct. So you doubt the veracity of points you don't consider in dispute. In your words, I'd say you are being very unsound and trolling, though probably not actionable.
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On June 21 2017 06:46 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2017 06:27 zlefin wrote:On June 21 2017 06:15 Danglars wrote:On June 21 2017 06:13 zlefin wrote:On June 21 2017 06:07 Danglars wrote:On June 21 2017 04:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 21 2017 02:22 Mohdoo wrote:Out of curiosity, are there any such polls making democrats look like complete dumbasses? Are there Obama era things that people blame on bush? I imagine I only hear about the polls showing republicans are idiots, but surely there must be a comparable democrat thing. Democrats who think Obama took out Saddam or something like that Well... https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/815256370958237696 That's the gold standard in dumb Democrat voters. Pick the mote out of Republicans' eyes all the while with a plank in your own. Civic education and engagement continues in decline. is there evidence that civic education is actually worse than it used ot be, rather than people simply always being dumb and it being talked about more now? civic engagement is declining by which measure? My point is that the ignorance quotient is very bipartisan in nature. but that was never contested or disputed. so your remarks on civics are then irrelevant, as they have no bearing on your stated point. setting aside whether they were correct (which also seems doubtful) I'll be sure to run my points before you in the future to make sure they pass zlefin's relevance test. In true zlefin fashion, they're not "contested or disputed" but doubtfully correct. So you doubt the veracity of points you don't consider in dispute. In your words, I'd say you are being very unsound and trolling, though probably not actionable.
no, you're the one factually trolling, and apparently unable to follow basic argumentation, since you're not responding to the actual points I made, or even paying attention to the points you actually made. You're just shitposting, again, and showing a complete inability to use basic argumentation.
you made two claims, you fail to substantiate them in any way when asked; and when asked, you say your point was something that those claims had no bearing on anyways. then you lie about what my own point is; and saying idiotically conflate the "not contested or disputed" stuff, with the "doubtful true" stuff, even though they extremely OBVIOUSLY have different referents; one referring to your stated thesis, which was singular; and the other referring to your CLAIMS, which was pluralized; the singular/plural difference making it very obvious which statements referred to which referents. you instead assert they both apply to the same referent, when they plainly do not. That is shitposting and torlling, and/or failing to read posts at all.
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On June 21 2017 06:23 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2017 06:15 Danglars wrote:On June 21 2017 06:13 zlefin wrote:On June 21 2017 06:07 Danglars wrote:On June 21 2017 04:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 21 2017 02:22 Mohdoo wrote:Out of curiosity, are there any such polls making democrats look like complete dumbasses? Are there Obama era things that people blame on bush? I imagine I only hear about the polls showing republicans are idiots, but surely there must be a comparable democrat thing. Democrats who think Obama took out Saddam or something like that Well... https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/815256370958237696 That's the gold standard in dumb Democrat voters. Pick the mote out of Republicans' eyes all the while with a plank in your own. Civic education and engagement continues in decline. is there evidence that civic education is actually worse than it used ot be, rather than people simply always being dumb and it being talked about more now? civic engagement is declining by which measure? My point is that the ignorance quotient is very bipartisan in nature. I will second your proposal that civics education in the US is criminally lacking. The calls for immediate impeachment by democrats are proof of that.
Republicans that praise AHCA and Senate drafting process that criticized the PPACA are being awfully myopic and dumb as well. Civics show that these both are modern phenomenon of gigantic bills passed too quickly with too little debate beforehand. Criticizing one but not the other is ignorance.
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On June 21 2017 06:51 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2017 06:46 Danglars wrote:On June 21 2017 06:27 zlefin wrote:On June 21 2017 06:15 Danglars wrote:On June 21 2017 06:13 zlefin wrote:On June 21 2017 06:07 Danglars wrote:On June 21 2017 04:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 21 2017 02:22 Mohdoo wrote:Out of curiosity, are there any such polls making democrats look like complete dumbasses? Are there Obama era things that people blame on bush? I imagine I only hear about the polls showing republicans are idiots, but surely there must be a comparable democrat thing. Democrats who think Obama took out Saddam or something like that Well... https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/815256370958237696 That's the gold standard in dumb Democrat voters. Pick the mote out of Republicans' eyes all the while with a plank in your own. Civic education and engagement continues in decline. is there evidence that civic education is actually worse than it used ot be, rather than people simply always being dumb and it being talked about more now? civic engagement is declining by which measure? My point is that the ignorance quotient is very bipartisan in nature. but that was never contested or disputed. so your remarks on civics are then irrelevant, as they have no bearing on your stated point. setting aside whether they were correct (which also seems doubtful) I'll be sure to run my points before you in the future to make sure they pass zlefin's relevance test. In true zlefin fashion, they're not "contested or disputed" but doubtfully correct. So you doubt the veracity of points you don't consider in dispute. In your words, I'd say you are being very unsound and trolling, though probably not actionable. no, you're the one factually trolling, and apparently unable to follow basic argumentation, since you're not responding to the actual points I made, or even paying attention to the points you actually made. You're just shitposting, again, and showing a complete inability to use basic argumentation. you made two claims, you fail to substantiate them in any way when asked; and when asked, you say your point was something that those claims had no bearing on anyways. then you lie about what my own point is; and saying idiotically conflate the "not contested or disputed" stuff, with the "doubtful true" stuff, even though they extremely OBVIOUSLY have different referents; one referring to your stated thesis, which was singular; and the other referring to your CLAIMS, which was pluralized; the singular/plural difference making it very obvious which statements referred to which referents. you instead assert they both apply to the same referent, when they plainly do not. That is shitposting and torlling, and/or failing to read posts at all.
If you read Mohdoo's post and indeed the last page you'd know why I made the point and why it's appropriate. I am not responsible for posts made from poor comprehension of the quote chain. Your post is all tantrum with repetitive buzzwords and probably doesn't deserve a response. Re-read and come back to me in a PM or rage-less response if you want to interact.
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The highest attorney in the land now has legal counsel.
Charles Cooper, the well-known Republican lawyer, wasn't simply in attendance at U.S. Attorney General Jeff Sessions' congressional hearing one week ago to support his friend. Cooper is Sessions' personal lawyer, he confirmed in an email Tuesday.
Cooper didn't provide additional details on the nature of the representation—including whether it extends to the criminal inquiry into Trump campaign affiliates' involvement with Russia.
Peter Carr, a spokesperson for the Justice Department's investigation, declined to comment because the probe is ongoing. Spokespeople for Sessions didn't immediately respond to requests Tuesday.
Cooper's involvement isn't that surprising given his public appearance with Sessions on Capitol Hill. Lawyers typically consult counsel before testifying, so that they can prepare adequately.
But a continuing attorney-client relationship between the attorney general and a private lawyer could signal they expect additional perilous legal questions—including from Robert Mueller III's special counsel investigation.
Last month, 11 Democratic senators and the American Civil Liberties Union called for investigations into whether Sessions violated his recusal from the Russia investigation and committed perjury during his nomination hearings.
Cooper is a natural choice from outside the Justice Department to counsel Sessions. The two have been close for decades. Cooper, a former head of Main Justice's Office of Legal Counsel, has his own firm, Cooper & Kirk. Earlier in his career he was a partner at McGuireWoods and at Shaw, Pittman, Potts & Trowbridge.
He often handles appellate cases, such as his work defending California’s since-overturned gay marriage ban, Proposition 8. Earlier he represented the NRA's campaign finance fund in cases against Federal Election Commission regulations.
Cooper also counseled Sessions when the then-senator prepared for his attorney general confirmation hearings.
The Trump administration later considered Cooper for the solicitor general job. He withdrew from consideration in February, citing the Senate's questioning of Sessions.
“After witnessing the treatment that my friend Jeff Sessions, a decent and honorable man who bears only good will and good cheer to everyone he meets, had to endure at the hands of a partisan opposition that will say anything and do anything to advance their political interests, I am unwilling to subject myself, my family, and my friends to such a process," Cooper said upon withdrawing.
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On June 21 2017 06:54 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2017 06:23 Plansix wrote:On June 21 2017 06:15 Danglars wrote:On June 21 2017 06:13 zlefin wrote:On June 21 2017 06:07 Danglars wrote:On June 21 2017 04:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 21 2017 02:22 Mohdoo wrote:Out of curiosity, are there any such polls making democrats look like complete dumbasses? Are there Obama era things that people blame on bush? I imagine I only hear about the polls showing republicans are idiots, but surely there must be a comparable democrat thing. Democrats who think Obama took out Saddam or something like that Well... https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/815256370958237696 That's the gold standard in dumb Democrat voters. Pick the mote out of Republicans' eyes all the while with a plank in your own. Civic education and engagement continues in decline. is there evidence that civic education is actually worse than it used ot be, rather than people simply always being dumb and it being talked about more now? civic engagement is declining by which measure? My point is that the ignorance quotient is very bipartisan in nature. I will second your proposal that civics education in the US is criminally lacking. The calls for immediate impeachment by democrats are proof of that. Republicans that praise AHCA and Senate drafting process that criticized the PPACA are being awfully myopic and dumb as well. Civics show that these both are modern phenomenon of gigantic bills passed too quickly with too little debate beforehand. Criticizing one but not the other is ignorance.
The problem with the ACA in general was there was no buy in from the Republicans, which doomed us for 6 years of repeal attempts. I felt the process had a reasonable amount of public input and I accept that most billed end behind closed door because that is how shit gets done. But passing the ACA with no republican buy in pretty much doom congress for the next 6 years. It is just to bad. The problem is that the GOP ran on this idea that they can repeal the ACA or pass an alternative without the democrats. Or under this extremely foolish belief that the democrats would come to the table.
Now before my fellow left leaning people jump on this, of course the GOP didn't buy into the ACA on purpose. They planned on running against it. My criticism is only that the democrats seem dumb founded by that outcome for 6 fucking years. But then again the Republicans seem dumbfounded that the democrats won't work on the repeal, so maybe they are all short sighted idiots.
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