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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On June 09 2017 07:50 NewSunshine wrote:
So nothing explosive happened or was revealed here - except maybe John McCain's unexpected episode, but it shouldn't be too surprising. Even if Trump ends up taking the fall it wasn't gonna happen today, or soon even. The best case scenario still isn't encouraging though: that Trump's handling of all this exhibited such ineptitude, that his innocent dealings were made to look highly suspicious, almost criminal, and as such attracted this much attention.
This testimony is by no means some kind of anvil that divines his guilt or innocence, or even competence as a leader. Even if it does nothing to damage him, he's still a certifiably terrible leader who's damaging alliances worldwide, and isn't doing much better domestically.
I guess the biggest 'reveal' is that there is classified reason for Sessions to recluse himself from the investigation.
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On June 09 2017 07:41 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2017 07:14 xDaunt wrote:Even Chris Matthews gets it: Liberal MSNBC host Chris Matthews said Thursday the accusation that President Trump directly colluded with Russia to interfere in the U.S. election "came apart" following former FBI Director James Comey's testimony in front of Congress.
In his written and spoken testimony on Thursday, Comey said that he never felt that Trump had tried to impede the FBI's investigation into Russia, even that the president had encouraged it and he suggested that former national security adviser Mike Flynn wasn't at the heart of the investigation.
"The assumption of the critics of the president, of his pursuers, you might say, is that somewhere along the line in the last year is the president had something to do with colluding with the Russians … to affect the election in some way," Matthews said on MSNBC, following the testimony.
"And yet what came apart this morning was that theory," Matthews said, listing two reasons why. First, he said Comey revealed that "Flynn wasn't central to the Russian investigation," and secondly, he said that kills the idea that Flynn might have been in a position to testify against Trump.
"And if that's not the case, where's the there-there?" Matthews said. Source. At most, Flynn might be in trouble for failing to properly disclose his ties and register as a foreign agent. But even if he does get in trouble for those things, it's becoming abundantly apparent that this Comey thing is an overblown sideshow where Trump terminated Comey merely to try to get this Russia bullshit out of the headlines, not because the investigation threatened Trump and Trump wanted to impede the investigation. Matthews leading the charge to bring liberals away from this myopic campaign strategy? Collusion's dead except for bitter clingers, obstruction is just politicking for 2018, Trump getting pissed and sinking his own agenda through tweets/interviews is the big prize.
I'm sorry. Did i miss the part where he said the Trump campaign was cleared of collusion? I for one never thought Trump himself did anything; he's far too stupid to be a good mark (plus he has a big mouth). It's all the greedy fucks around him.
I love how you take pleasure in this whole thing as if what we heard about Trump today doesn't paint a picture of a shit person being in the White House. But I suppose you came to terms with that some time ago and merely get off on being adversarial.
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Oh and none of this changes the fact that Flynn, Manafort, and Stone are going to get drilled. And any damage to then inevitably rubs off on Trump.
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On June 09 2017 07:50 NewSunshine wrote:
So nothing explosive happened or was revealed here - except maybe John McCain's unexpected episode, but it shouldn't be too surprising. Even if Trump ends up taking the fall it wasn't gonna happen today, or soon even. The best case scenario still isn't encouraging though: that Trump's handling of all this exhibited such ineptitude, that his innocent dealings were made to look highly suspicious, almost criminal, and as such attracted this much attention.
This testimony is by no means some kind of anvil that divines his guilt or innocence, or even competence as a leader. Even if it does nothing to damage him, he's still a certifiably terrible leader who's damaging alliances worldwide, and isn't doing much better domestically.
Personally, I thought this one was interesting (with regards to the investigation on collusion and subsequent news reports):
COMEY: Yes, there have been many, many stories based on — well, lots of stuff but about Russia that are dead wrong.
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On June 09 2017 07:14 xDaunt wrote:Even Chris Matthews gets it: Show nested quote +Liberal MSNBC host Chris Matthews said Thursday the accusation that President Trump directly colluded with Russia to interfere in the U.S. election "came apart" following former FBI Director James Comey's testimony in front of Congress.
In his written and spoken testimony on Thursday, Comey said that he never felt that Trump had tried to impede the FBI's investigation into Russia, even that the president had encouraged it and he suggested that former national security adviser Mike Flynn wasn't at the heart of the investigation.
"The assumption of the critics of the president, of his pursuers, you might say, is that somewhere along the line in the last year is the president had something to do with colluding with the Russians … to affect the election in some way," Matthews said on MSNBC, following the testimony.
"And yet what came apart this morning was that theory," Matthews said, listing two reasons why. First, he said Comey revealed that "Flynn wasn't central to the Russian investigation," and secondly, he said that kills the idea that Flynn might have been in a position to testify against Trump.
"And if that's not the case, where's the there-there?" Matthews said. Source. At most, Flynn might be in trouble for failing to properly disclose his ties and register as a foreign agent. But even if he does get in trouble for those things, it's becoming abundantly apparent that this Comey thing is an overblown sideshow where Trump terminated Comey merely to try to get this Russia bullshit out of the headlines, not because the investigation threatened Trump and Trump wanted to impede the investigation.
Whether Flynn was central to the investigation, and whether Flynn was in a position to testify against Trump (this point was not settled, btw - Comey held out the possibility of Flynn flipping), doesn't settle the question of whether there was collusion involving the campaign. Whether Trump was personally involved also doesn't settle the question. The investigation will get to the bottom of things, but it's unsound to argue the question has been settled by those things.
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On June 09 2017 08:03 a_flayer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2017 07:50 NewSunshine wrote:
So nothing explosive happened or was revealed here - except maybe John McCain's unexpected episode, but it shouldn't be too surprising. Even if Trump ends up taking the fall it wasn't gonna happen today, or soon even. The best case scenario still isn't encouraging though: that Trump's handling of all this exhibited such ineptitude, that his innocent dealings were made to look highly suspicious, almost criminal, and as such attracted this much attention.
This testimony is by no means some kind of anvil that divines his guilt or innocence, or even competence as a leader. Even if it does nothing to damage him, he's still a certifiably terrible leader who's damaging alliances worldwide, and isn't doing much better domestically. Personally, I thought this one was interesting (with regards to the investigation on collusion and subsequent news reports): Show nested quote +COMEY: Yes, there have been many, many stories based on — well, lots of stuff but about Russia that are dead wrong.
I wonder what stories he's referring to, and how central they are to the idea of Trump's campaign colluding with Russia. A hypothetical scenario where 100% of every story suggesting collusion is wrong would still be deeply troubling to me. Trump's presidency is damaging enough on its own, we don't need anybody helping him.
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On June 09 2017 07:28 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2017 07:14 xDaunt wrote:Even Chris Matthews gets it: Liberal MSNBC host Chris Matthews said Thursday the accusation that President Trump directly colluded with Russia to interfere in the U.S. election "came apart" following former FBI Director James Comey's testimony in front of Congress.
In his written and spoken testimony on Thursday, Comey said that he never felt that Trump had tried to impede the FBI's investigation into Russia, even that the president had encouraged it and he suggested that former national security adviser Mike Flynn wasn't at the heart of the investigation.
"The assumption of the critics of the president, of his pursuers, you might say, is that somewhere along the line in the last year is the president had something to do with colluding with the Russians … to affect the election in some way," Matthews said on MSNBC, following the testimony.
"And yet what came apart this morning was that theory," Matthews said, listing two reasons why. First, he said Comey revealed that "Flynn wasn't central to the Russian investigation," and secondly, he said that kills the idea that Flynn might have been in a position to testify against Trump.
"And if that's not the case, where's the there-there?" Matthews said. Source. At most, Flynn might be in trouble for failing to properly disclose his ties and register as a foreign agent. But even if he does get in trouble for those things, it's becoming abundantly apparent that this Comey thing is an overblown sideshow where Trump terminated Comey merely to try to get this Russia bullshit out of the headlines, not because the investigation threatened Trump and Trump wanted to impede the investigation. If it's an overblown sideshow why did Trump lie about the firing reason first?
Because Trump has the unfortunate tendency of being impetuous.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On June 09 2017 08:01 On_Slaught wrote:
Oh and none of this changes the fact that Flynn, Manafort, and Stone are going to get drilled. And any damage to then inevitably rubs off on Trump.
The perils of surrounding yourself with shitty people I guess. It remains to be seen if the result will simply be that people disapprove a tick more of Trump or if it will be more severe.
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I thought of that on the way home today. Agreeing not to use the word investigation doesn't seem that crazy when both Justice and the FBI have a policy against confirming investigations exist.
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On June 09 2017 08:17 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2017 07:28 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On June 09 2017 07:14 xDaunt wrote:Even Chris Matthews gets it: Liberal MSNBC host Chris Matthews said Thursday the accusation that President Trump directly colluded with Russia to interfere in the U.S. election "came apart" following former FBI Director James Comey's testimony in front of Congress.
In his written and spoken testimony on Thursday, Comey said that he never felt that Trump had tried to impede the FBI's investigation into Russia, even that the president had encouraged it and he suggested that former national security adviser Mike Flynn wasn't at the heart of the investigation.
"The assumption of the critics of the president, of his pursuers, you might say, is that somewhere along the line in the last year is the president had something to do with colluding with the Russians … to affect the election in some way," Matthews said on MSNBC, following the testimony.
"And yet what came apart this morning was that theory," Matthews said, listing two reasons why. First, he said Comey revealed that "Flynn wasn't central to the Russian investigation," and secondly, he said that kills the idea that Flynn might have been in a position to testify against Trump.
"And if that's not the case, where's the there-there?" Matthews said. Source. At most, Flynn might be in trouble for failing to properly disclose his ties and register as a foreign agent. But even if he does get in trouble for those things, it's becoming abundantly apparent that this Comey thing is an overblown sideshow where Trump terminated Comey merely to try to get this Russia bullshit out of the headlines, not because the investigation threatened Trump and Trump wanted to impede the investigation. If it's an overblown sideshow why did Trump lie about the firing reason first? Because Trump has the unfortunate tendency of being impetuous.
It isn't the crime that gets you, its the cove up. I've heard that some place before.
Edit: In further coverage, this four minute with Harvard law professor Noah Feldman is very good. There is almost no fat. It is concise and informative.
http://www.npr.org/2017/06/08/532120197/law-professor-outlines-legal-questions-raised-in-comey-testimony
In a side note Noah Feldman's list of accomplishments is mildly terrifying.
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On June 09 2017 08:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2017 08:17 xDaunt wrote:On June 09 2017 07:28 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On June 09 2017 07:14 xDaunt wrote:Even Chris Matthews gets it: Liberal MSNBC host Chris Matthews said Thursday the accusation that President Trump directly colluded with Russia to interfere in the U.S. election "came apart" following former FBI Director James Comey's testimony in front of Congress.
In his written and spoken testimony on Thursday, Comey said that he never felt that Trump had tried to impede the FBI's investigation into Russia, even that the president had encouraged it and he suggested that former national security adviser Mike Flynn wasn't at the heart of the investigation.
"The assumption of the critics of the president, of his pursuers, you might say, is that somewhere along the line in the last year is the president had something to do with colluding with the Russians … to affect the election in some way," Matthews said on MSNBC, following the testimony.
"And yet what came apart this morning was that theory," Matthews said, listing two reasons why. First, he said Comey revealed that "Flynn wasn't central to the Russian investigation," and secondly, he said that kills the idea that Flynn might have been in a position to testify against Trump.
"And if that's not the case, where's the there-there?" Matthews said. Source. At most, Flynn might be in trouble for failing to properly disclose his ties and register as a foreign agent. But even if he does get in trouble for those things, it's becoming abundantly apparent that this Comey thing is an overblown sideshow where Trump terminated Comey merely to try to get this Russia bullshit out of the headlines, not because the investigation threatened Trump and Trump wanted to impede the investigation. If it's an overblown sideshow why did Trump lie about the firing reason first? Because Trump has the unfortunate tendency of being impetuous. It isn't the crime that gets you, its the cove up. I've heard that some place before. Edit: In further coverage, this four minute with Harvard law professor Noah Feldman is very good. There is almost no fat. It is concise and informative. http://www.npr.org/2017/06/08/532120197/law-professor-outlines-legal-questions-raised-in-comey-testimonyIn a side note Noah Feldman's list of accomplishments is mildly terrifying.
Nice listen, thanks for that link.
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2017 and I am wondering if there are tapes of conversations in the White House. The thing I read about in history and through "damn, that was really fucking stupid. I bet that will never happen again." And then I got a whole degree in history and went "Yeah, there is no fucking way."
And the thing I am thinking about now: Trump is stupid enough talk to his staff about the tapes and destroy them.
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On June 09 2017 08:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2017 08:17 xDaunt wrote:On June 09 2017 07:28 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On June 09 2017 07:14 xDaunt wrote:Even Chris Matthews gets it: Liberal MSNBC host Chris Matthews said Thursday the accusation that President Trump directly colluded with Russia to interfere in the U.S. election "came apart" following former FBI Director James Comey's testimony in front of Congress.
In his written and spoken testimony on Thursday, Comey said that he never felt that Trump had tried to impede the FBI's investigation into Russia, even that the president had encouraged it and he suggested that former national security adviser Mike Flynn wasn't at the heart of the investigation.
"The assumption of the critics of the president, of his pursuers, you might say, is that somewhere along the line in the last year is the president had something to do with colluding with the Russians … to affect the election in some way," Matthews said on MSNBC, following the testimony.
"And yet what came apart this morning was that theory," Matthews said, listing two reasons why. First, he said Comey revealed that "Flynn wasn't central to the Russian investigation," and secondly, he said that kills the idea that Flynn might have been in a position to testify against Trump.
"And if that's not the case, where's the there-there?" Matthews said. Source. At most, Flynn might be in trouble for failing to properly disclose his ties and register as a foreign agent. But even if he does get in trouble for those things, it's becoming abundantly apparent that this Comey thing is an overblown sideshow where Trump terminated Comey merely to try to get this Russia bullshit out of the headlines, not because the investigation threatened Trump and Trump wanted to impede the investigation. If it's an overblown sideshow why did Trump lie about the firing reason first? Because Trump has the unfortunate tendency of being impetuous. It isn't the crime that gets you, its the cove up. I've heard that some place before. Edit: In further coverage, this four minute with Harvard law professor Noah Feldman is very good. There is almost no fat. It is concise and informative. http://www.npr.org/2017/06/08/532120197/law-professor-outlines-legal-questions-raised-in-comey-testimonyIn a side note Noah Feldman's list of accomplishments is mildly terrifying.
I think in Trump's case, it will have to be both actually. There will never be an obstruction of justice indictment, because it HAS to come from an Ayn Ran cultist who is currently Speaker of the House.
Comey did everything he could to get the special counsel appointed, releasing his memos to the press. To me, this is basically admitting that he doesn't trust Congress to have the stomach to deal with this stuff, and he's obviously right about that.
Let's not pretend Trump hasn't confessed to obstruction of justice on multiple times to the press and in closed-meetings with Russian stooges. That is, in fact, what necessitated Comey to give this testimony. But the question is mostly moot, as Paul Ryan will not move on obstruction of justice -- and Congress's willingness to act is the only "law" that matters. This is, sadly, entirely political.
Mueller is going to have to spill more blood. He'll have to reveal more conflicts of interest and lies told from the Trump administration, while Trump continues to rather purposefully destroy America's international stature. Can the GOP stomach more testimonies and another NATO summit? (Can NATO stomach another Trump meeting?)
Comey's testimony was good just to remind people what has happened to our FBI and IC. To remind people that the IC isn't ambiguous over Russia's involvement in all this, and that the President has lied about that.
It should, hopefully, remind people that Trump confessed to firing Comey over Russia in interviews and closed-meetings with Russian nationals. I don't think anyone necessarily expected it to finally shame the Paul Ryan to doing anything, because Comey is mostly confirming what is already known -- which in a more honest time would destroy Trump. BUT, in a more honest time, Trump would've never been elected.
So the GOP's great sell-out of the nation continues for a while longer. Whatever short-term "accomplishments" they ram through under this treasonous President will obviously not be worth the lasting shame they've put in the history books.
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United States41117 Posts
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Would be great if they could include a single of Megadeth's "Liar" with this issue. I guess CDs are a thing of the past now, but a download code would work.
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I guess the media isn't ready to learn it's lesson about needlessly gaslighting the public. Comey called Trump a liar (nothing new), but more significantly, he took a giant shit on all of the leakers on whom outfits like WaPo and NYT have been relying for information about the Russia collusion. I forget the exact phrase that Comey used, but "dead wrong" is ringing a bell. Now it's just a matter of waiting to see how long it takes the gaslit liberal masses to figure out that Comey has all but guaranteed them a massive case of political blue balls.
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On June 09 2017 12:13 xDaunt wrote:I guess the media isn't ready to learn it's lesson about needlessly gaslighting the public. Comey called Trump a liar (nothing new), but more significantly, he took a giant shit on all of the leakers on whom outfits like WaPo and NYT have been relying for information about the Russia collusion. I forget the exact phrase that Comey used, but "dead wrong" is ringing a bell. Now it's just a matter of waiting to see how long it takes the gaslit liberal masses to figure out that Comey has all but guaranteed them a massive case of political blue balls.
All the way to 2020 if the regular rank and file Democrats let them.
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EPT
